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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Orange Fronted Kakariki (Read 78268 times)
Marty Foote
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #60 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:09am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:35am:
5000ha for 1 trapper?  that seems a very large area for 1 guy to do effectively, what sort of trap densities would you be proposing for such operation?

I think the only way you would ever get doc onboard would be a proposal that involved a valley or similar layout where 1 side could get docs normal 1080 treatment and the otherside you could undertake your trapping masterplan and compare progress and results. I guess a control area for a natural population comparison would be helpful aswell.

are you totally against any toxins marty?  As I think many have their place.


DOC has been employing good trappers for over 30 years with effective rat trapping going on for 20 years. DOC knows the excellent results that good trappers can achieve.

Around 5,000ha/per trapper is what is being achieved already.

I'm not against toxins, I have used cyanide. I don't like toxins that leave behind a toxic carcass that can poison the next animal in the food chain.

There is one, privately invented, rat control system that is using 1st generation anti-coagulents for good results, that, I am told, leaves behind a non-toxic carcass. I have talked with the inventor, however, he cannot get permission to use the system on DOC land, without adequate testing, and he can't afford the testing and DOC refuses to help. This is one poison system that I would like to trial on a rat control contract.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #61 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 10:12am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:55am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:57am:
I have just gone and checked 6 [1 stoat and 5 Victor rat]  of my local traps while taking the dog for a run. 2 i have not checked them for over a week. I caught 1 mouse , had 1 sprung empty and the other 3 traps  had the peanut butter completely eaten off the treadle and were not going to catch anything. Those 5 were examples of traps that were not going to catch anything. If the peanut butter had been eaten off those traps in the first night it makes there catching ability even less successful ? Stick those traps in a high mouse area and the bait would be eaten off the traps by the time you had walked to the next trap !!!


I am not going to go over the boxes again as it is pointless but trapping in weka, kiwi and certainly kea areas it would be legally mandatory i would think, if not legally it certainly would be morally. You are there trapping to save birds not let them walk into traps.


You have a system that works for you and other people have systems that work for them.

The system I am describing has worked effectively, for 20 years, and has used trap-sets created with materials, other than wooden boxes, that deters birds. The only things that I have against wooden box-sets is that they are bulky, are time expensive to deploy, deter some stoats from entering and there are other alternatives, already in use, that resolve these problems.

The system I am describing has also relied on Victor traps and has achieved effective rat control before and after Good Nature traps were invented. I don't have any real problems with Good Nature traps, except for the purchase price, and I can see places, such as very high rat densities, where I will be able to use them to their best potential.

I'm not sure why you are criticising, so harshly, a system that doesn't work for you and does work for others.

When the Victor No.1 leg-holds were introduced to the NZ market, trappers wouldn't use them claiming things like: they are too small, they won't hold big possums, they are hard too set and some trappers bought a few and claimed they didn't work as well as gins and No.1 1/2s. I was one of the first trappers to switch totally to No.1s, on a successful performance contract, I might add. Within a decade, the original detractors had switched to No.1s and were singing the virtues of small, light, can carry more traps, will hold possums caught by the toes, can be set to not catch rats, etc and the reasons used to earlier nay-say were no longer being heard.

There is no "best practice prescribed formula" for any animal control as the needs change with the block, the weather, time of year, animal density, what they are feeding on, where they are feeding, what the required outcome is, etc. The only way there can be ongoing, consistent, effective control is to employ experienced trappers that have learned how to deal with all the variables and the only way you can get the best, and improving, results is to let output contracts where the trappers are paid on results. This will encourage healthy competition as good trappers are very individualistic, like to think they can do things the best and will be continuously working to improve their performance to, not only, be better wild animal controllers, but, to improve their own financial returns as well.

While healthy debate, about effective methods, is important, the debate becomes unhealthy, and stymies innovation, when any one method is dictated as being the only method to be used and the work is then contracted out on "best practice prescribed formula" type input contracts, where the animal control results become secondary to completing a prescribed formula of work. This is the situation we find ourselves in today, with the output contract thinking trappers being excluded and any innovation is being driven by the needs of government managers, politicians and scientists, very few of whom have any personal, hands-on experience with full time wild animal control work.


It is not just my experience that i am quoting.
Other groups comment that mice are a big issue to the point that mouse excluders have been designed so that baits last in the set. Note these are not rat type baits , they are baits designed for stoats, meat based. In a year of high rodent numbers the peanut butter on your rat trap will be gone before you clear the next trap.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #62 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 10:26am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 10:12am:
Marty Foote wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:55am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:57am:
I have just gone and checked 6 [1 stoat and 5 Victor rat]  of my local traps while taking the dog for a run. 2 i have not checked them for over a week. I caught 1 mouse , had 1 sprung empty and the other 3 traps  had the peanut butter completely eaten off the treadle and were not going to catch anything. Those 5 were examples of traps that were not going to catch anything. If the peanut butter had been eaten off those traps in the first night it makes there catching ability even less successful ? Stick those traps in a high mouse area and the bait would be eaten off the traps by the time you had walked to the next trap !!!


I am not going to go over the boxes again as it is pointless but trapping in weka, kiwi and certainly kea areas it would be legally mandatory i would think, if not legally it certainly would be morally. You are there trapping to save birds not let them walk into traps.


You have a system that works for you and other people have systems that work for them.

The system I am describing has worked effectively, for 20 years, and has used trap-sets created with materials, other than wooden boxes, that deters birds. The only things that I have against wooden box-sets is that they are bulky, are time expensive to deploy, deter some stoats from entering and there are other alternatives, already in use, that resolve these problems.

The system I am describing has also relied on Victor traps and has achieved effective rat control before and after Good Nature traps were invented. I don't have any real problems with Good Nature traps, except for the purchase price, and I can see places, such as very high rat densities, where I will be able to use them to their best potential.

I'm not sure why you are criticising, so harshly, a system that doesn't work for you and does work for others.

When the Victor No.1 leg-holds were introduced to the NZ market, trappers wouldn't use them claiming things like: they are too small, they won't hold big possums, they are hard too set and some trappers bought a few and claimed they didn't work as well as gins and No.1 1/2s. I was one of the first trappers to switch totally to No.1s, on a successful performance contract, I might add. Within a decade, the original detractors had switched to No.1s and were singing the virtues of small, light, can carry more traps, will hold possums caught by the toes, can be set to not catch rats, etc and the reasons used to earlier nay-say were no longer being heard.

There is no "best practice prescribed formula" for any animal control as the needs change with the block, the weather, time of year, animal density, what they are feeding on, where they are feeding, what the required outcome is, etc. The only way there can be ongoing, consistent, effective control is to employ experienced trappers that have learned how to deal with all the variables and the only way you can get the best, and improving, results is to let output contracts where the trappers are paid on results. This will encourage healthy competition as good trappers are very individualistic, like to think they can do things the best and will be continuously working to improve their performance to, not only, be better wild animal controllers, but, to improve their own financial returns as well.

While healthy debate, about effective methods, is important, the debate becomes unhealthy, and stymies innovation, when any one method is dictated as being the only method to be used and the work is then contracted out on "best practice prescribed formula" type input contracts, where the animal control results become secondary to completing a prescribed formula of work. This is the situation we find ourselves in today, with the output contract thinking trappers being excluded and any innovation is being driven by the needs of government managers, politicians and scientists, very few of whom have any personal, hands-on experience with full time wild animal control work.


It is not just my experience that i am quoting.
Other groups comment that mice are a big issue to the point that mouse excluders have been designed so that baits last in the set. Note these are not rat type baits , they are baits designed for stoats, meat based. In a year of high rodent numbers the peanut butter on your rat trap will be gone before you clear the next trap.


So, it would appear that we are in agreement then?

Good trappers, when faced with a problem, will find a solution that enables the desired outcomes to be achieved. You have found ways to solve your problems and others have found ways to solve their problems.

I would hazard a guess, that if you put a good trapper, that has historically operated in a different area, into your area, he may come up with a different solution, to the one you are using, that achieves the same outcome, or he may try some other ideas and come to the conclusion that you have already found the best solution for the problems you were facing.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #63 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 11:11am
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Agreement .. i dont think so.
One group solved there problems by using the Victor rat traps where there is a very high volunteer base as they are very labour intensive. Traps are spaced every 25 to 50m.

In my opinion you are advocating for the use of Victor traps for the purposes of suiting your arguement as far as making it appear a more cost effective way of trapping. 

If you advocated for the use of GN rat traps then clearly you can show from the Harts Hill experience that they would be effective even at half of best practice rates as was done in that trial. However the fly in the ointment is the initial set up cost of purchasing the traps and that is only the rat traps...
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #64 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:40pm
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 11:11am:
Agreement .. i dont think so.
One group solved there problems by using the Victor rat traps where there is a very high volunteer base as they are very labour intensive. Traps are spaced every 25 to 50m.

In my opinion you are advocating for the use of Victor traps for the purposes of suiting your arguement as far as making it appear a more cost effective way of trapping. 

If you advocated for the use of GN rat traps then clearly you can show from the Harts Hill experience that they would be effective even at half of best practice rates as was done in that trial. However the fly in the ointment is the initial set up cost of purchasing the traps and that is only the rat traps... 


Well, I guess your reply shows the difference with our views.

I want output contracts to be tendered so that the targeted population densities will be achieved in the most cost effective manner. The targeted results will be achieved by the methods that suit the conditions, on any particular block, and this is why output contracts are regularly used in other industries. I am advocating that output contracts be tendered and the trappers are able to choose from all the different control tools available in order to find the best mix for the particular block.

It's interesting because the poison industry contractors are the most vocal opponents of output contracts. This is not surprising as the poison applicators know that they cannot guarantee the final wild animal population density and if they were tied to output contracts they would have a number of failed operations for which they wouldn't get any payments.

You appear to be arguing for the DOC status-quo where some manager or scientist decides what is the "best practice input formula" and this formula must be followed unless there has been trials, controlled by a scientist, that show another method can work better.

Back in the days when possum trapping output contracts were common place, the scientists started studying what the successful trappers were doing. The scientists accompanied the trappers and recorded everything they were doing, expecting to find a "best practice formula" that was achieving the good results. What the scientists found was that the trappers were doing different things and they were doing things based on their personal experiences with trapping possums. The scientists couldn't find a "best practice formula" that could be written for possum trapping as there were many different solutions to the same target. After over 30 years of possum trapping contracts there is still no "best practice formula" for the reason that a "best practice formula" cannot be written and if the development of one was attempted it would have to ignore many aspects of a good trapping operation in order to deliver the sort of document that is expected from a "best practice formula".
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #65 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:00am
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Ok lets get some numbers down and please dont fudge and say it depends on the terrain etc.

How many Victors to do your 5000ha ? How far apart ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #66 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 5:16am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:00am:
Ok lets get some numbers down and please dont fudge and say it depends on the terrain etc.

How many Victors to do your 5000ha ? How far apart ?


The short answer to your question is: Enough traps to do the job.

I know you will say that I'm fudging, so I will go into more detail.

If you asked me the number of traps I would be used to control possums I would say: 300-600 traps per trapper.
How many trap-sets?: I don't know.
How long would the traps be down?: I don't know.
All I could tell you, with absolute certainty, is that when I had finished, the possum density would be below the contracted target.

In 2002, the Core Otamatuna rat control block, at Urewera, was 850ha.

There were 1038 traps set with 55% of them set at 25m intervals along the boundary, to stop reinvasion. Leaving 45% to trap the rats that invaded, through the boundary traps, or were still inside the block after the previous trapping. This gives a ratio of 1.2 traps/ha.

1.2 x 5,000 = 5,100 traps.

850ha is not a very large block and if the same trap ratio, 25m spacing along the boundary and 1 trap/1.8ha internally, was applied to a larger block the total traps/ha would come down.

The way that I would look at doing the job is the same as I would go about long term possum control. I would trap, very intensively, in an initial area of the block, aiming to get as close to zero as possible. Then move the intensive trapping outwards, leaving behind enough traps to catch the rats left behind and any rats that get through the boundary traps.

If the long term target was 5%, during December-February, I would be working over the winter to keep the rats as close to 5% as possible knowing that the tunnels are going to record a lowering of the rat population, from November on, as the rats move into the canopy to feed, and  less rats will be recorded in the tunnels.

I would be more concerned with the rat population densities prior to November, than I would be during December-February, because if I do the job right before November, I don't need to worry about the rat results that will be recorded from December on, as my normal background rat trapping will do the job required. I believe that the late winter/early spring trapping is the most important time, as this is when the rats start to increase their breeding rate and if these numbers can be kept low then the birds should have a good breeding season.

I would like to go back to my original statement, "enough traps to do the job" which, as you can see, will be dependent on how many rats are initially encountered, how many rats are left behind, how many rats get through the boundary traps and the rat breeding conditions in any particular year.

There used to be output contract possum trappers that whinged about being failed because their RTC%s were just over the target, those trappers have either moved on or are signing input contracts, and only the best trappers are still signing the few output contracts being tendered.

You might be interested in reading this DOC link as it supports the type of approach I am taking:

https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/mainland-islands/te-urewera/docs-work/te-urewer...


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #67 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 7:31am
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marty your idea is flawed as you dont even know what or how many traps you require untill youve got the tender and get in there. probably a good reason behind input instead of output contracts.
the unknowns are the difference between success and going bust.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #68 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:31am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 7:31am:
marty your idea is flawed as you dont even know what or how many traps you require untill youve got the tender and get in there. probably a good reason behind input instead of output contracts.
the unknowns are the difference between success and going bust.


You are right. Except that you have placed the preferences for the types of contracts in the wrong order.

I won't commit myself signing an output contract without the details of the required output target and the details of the block that I am signing up to. When I have signed the contract I don't expect to be paid unless I lower the animal populations to the required density.

Without an expression of interest, along with the output details, issued by the buyer of the services, I can't even get to square one. AND DOC continues to issue input contract tenders and claims that they are employing ground contractors to the best effect.

The unknowns are the reasons for contractor success or failure on output contracts. The more experienced the contractor the less the unknowns are and the less times the targeted outcomes will be failed.

Contrast this with the failure risk being borne by the people that design input contracts, that have no penalty if their ideas and methods don't work.

Which system would be better long term, an input contracting system where nobody is accountable for failure or an output contract system where the contractor only gets paid after he has achieved the desired results?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #69 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:37am
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5100 rat traps half of which will be spaced 25m apart, the other half spaced 100m apart. How many km of trap line are you running and how long will it be between visiting a trap and the next visit to that trap ?

I dont think you fudged your answer at all and there was 3 things i took off your link.
1.poison will have to be used esp in the early knock down phase.
2. the operation required trapperS, note the plural and that was only 850ha.
3. i certainly believe it is worth trying, i just struggle that one trapper will be able to cover 5000ha.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #70 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 10:23am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:37am:
5100 rat traps half of which will be spaced 25m apart, the other half spaced 100m apart. How many km of trap line are you running and how long will it be between visiting a trap and the next visit to that trap ?

I dont think you fudged your answer at all and there was 3 things i took off your link.
1.poison will have to be used esp in the early knock down phase.
2. the operation required trapperS, note the plural and that was only 850ha.
3. i certainly believe it is worth trying, i just struggle that one trapper will be able to cover 5000ha.


OK, here are the things about poison at Urewera...Poison was a very limited commodity as Tuhoe stated they didn't want the use of heaps of poison and this is the only reason why DOC used trapping instead of the normal aerial 1080 applications.

Trapping was used from the start and was achieving the good results. DOC wasn't allowed to drop 1080 and DOC trialed Brodificum, in bait stations, over some of the block. This was quickly stopped when over half the deer shot from this area tested positive to poison residue.

The rat populations, I was talking about, were the product of trapping only. There was a later year, after DOC had allowed the rat trapping budget to run down, and there was a rat eruption that needed to be dealt with and the cheapest, short term option, was to deploy poison, in bait stations, as there were not enough traps, or trappers, available to deal with the rat eruption that happened.

With regards to your questions about the length of any trap lines I have run and the amount of time spent servicing them, I cannot give you any definitive answers as my focus has always been on the final successful outcome and I would expect the same positive results for any wild animal control output contract that I sign.

Specific trap-line lengths and specific amounts of time to service the trap-lines are in the domain of the input contractor and is how the worth of an input contractor is measured.

I am an output contractor and the worth of an output contractor is measured by the output results he achieves.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #71 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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You wont give an answer how long your trap lines are because they are WAY to long for a single trapper to cover . 5000ha is just not coverable for a single trapper who is using Victor rat traps. The humble little mouse will see to that.
You work it out, half your 5100 traps are 25m apart and half are 100m apart. Tell me what that the trap line length is ? 
You then have your stoats and possums traps to clear as well, [possums have to be cleared daily if using leg holds as you know] and you said you could do wasps as well ! You wont be wearing boots, you will need sprinting shoes .

You put up the post "Lessons learnt", one of the lessons was poison had to be used and the other was trappers plural and that was only 850ha not your 5000ha.

Victors aint going to do it. Invest  half to three quarters of a million dollars worth of GN traps and then run your Victors if you must and you might have a show.

Like i said it is worth a try.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #72 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:11am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
You wont give an answer how long your trap lines are because they are WAY to long for a single trapper to cover . 5000ha is just not coverable for a single trapper who is using Victor rat traps. The humble little mouse will see to that.
You work it out, half your 5100 traps are 25m apart and half are 100m apart. Tell me what that the trap line length is ? 
You then have your stoats and possums traps to clear as well, [possums have to be cleared daily if using leg holds as you know] and you said you could do wasps as well ! You wont be wearing boots, you will need sprinting shoes .

You put up the post "Lessons learnt", one of the lessons was poison had to be used and the other was trappers plural and that was only 850ha not your 5000ha.

Victors aint going to do it. Invest  half to three quarters of a million dollars worth of GN traps and then run your Victors if you must and you might have a show.

Like i said it is worth a try.


You are ignoring four things:

1) Trapper are covering 5,000ha as we speak. This is a fact. Just because you say it is not true doesn't make it so.

2) Victor traps are working. The work in the Urewera has been done with Victor traps. Good Nature traps were trialed, at Urewera, and rejected as not being as reliable as Victors. Good Nature then used the Urewera trappers as a leaning experience by asking the trappers to trial the Good Nature traps as the original design, rejected by the trappers, was improved. To put it bluntly, the only reason why Good Nature traps are as good as they are is because of the input by the trappers at Urewera.

3) The report does state "trappers", as in more than one trapper, more than one species and the trappers were covering 50,000ha in total.

4) Poison was initially used on a trial basis and was rejected. Poison was used again, after DOC slashed the budget and allowed the experienced rat trapper numbers to go down and, as a direct result of the slashed budget, DOC got caught out with an unusual rat eruption year, which required the use of inexperienced people to set out bait stations to a "best practice formula". If DOC had not slashed the budget and the experienced trapper numbers had been maintained there would have been no need to use any poisons.

I get the impression that you are personally benefiting from the rat control you are involved with. If this is true you are riding the same gravy train that is supporting the aerial 1080 industry.

Your arguments and wording are very similar to what DOC used to throw at me. DOC has stopped throwing BS since I started throwing the truth back at them. I suggest that you do the same as DOC, if your real intention is to find the best wild animal control solution.

You will also note that the work, I quoted from, was done in 2002, nearly a decade after the trapping work started. This means that the work has been going on for over 20 years and trapping contractors are still being employed.

One of the lessons learned, that is not mentioned in the DOC article, is the fact that possum contractors are more cost effective if contracts are tendered over a number of years and are not issued on a short term basis. In case you are having some trouble with written comprehension skills, this means that DOC has learned that the best use of trappers is to use long term output contracts.

You are never going to convince me that the trapping work is not happening, simply because DOC doesn't promote effective trapping as heavily as DOC promotes their preferred control methods, which includes the use of free, inexperienced, volunteer labour that require a step-by-step prescriptive "best practice formula", similar to what you are demanding of me.

When you started making posts and questioning me, I thought, at first, you were really interested in finding the best solution. I now believe that you do not want any changes to be made that will interfere with your current activities.

I suggest that you do some very real and hard thinking about the future of your wild animal control work as you could easily become a failure statistic the same as the failed possum contractors I mentioned earlier.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #73 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 2:41am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:11am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
You wont give an answer how long your trap lines are because they are WAY to long for a single trapper to cover . 5000ha is just not coverable for a single trapper who is using Victor rat traps. The humble little mouse will see to that.
You work it out, half your 5100 traps are 25m apart and half are 100m apart. Tell me what that the trap line length is ? 
You then have your stoats and possums traps to clear as well, [possums have to be cleared daily if using leg holds as you know] and you said you could do wasps as well ! You wont be wearing boots, you will need sprinting shoes .

You put up the post "Lessons learnt", one of the lessons was poison had to be used and the other was trappers plural and that was only 850ha not your 5000ha.

Victors aint going to do it. Invest  half to three quarters of a million dollars worth of GN traps and then run your Victors if you must and you might have a show.

Like i said it is worth a try.


You are ignoring four things:

1) Trapper are covering 5,000ha as we speak. This is a fact. Just because you say it is not true doesn't make it so.

2) Victor traps are working. The work in the Urewera has been done with Victor traps. Good Nature traps were trialed, at Urewera, and rejected as not being as reliable as Victors. Good Nature then used the Urewera trappers as a leaning experience by asking the trappers to trial the Good Nature traps as the original design, rejected by the trappers, was improved. To put it bluntly, the only reason why Good Nature traps are as good as they are is because of the input by the trappers at Urewera.

3) The report does state "trappers", as in more than one trapper, more than one species and the trappers were covering 50,000ha in total.

4) Poison was initially used on a trial basis and was rejected. Poison was used again, after DOC slashed the budget and allowed the experienced rat trapper numbers to go down and, as a direct result of the slashed budget, DOC got caught out with an unusual rat eruption year, which required the use of inexperienced people to set out bait stations to a "best practice formula". If DOC had not slashed the budget and the experienced trapper numbers had been maintained there would have been no need to use any poisons.

I get the impression that you are personally benefiting from the rat control you are involved with. If this is true you are riding the same gravy train that is supporting the aerial 1080 industry.

Your arguments and wording are very similar to what DOC used to throw at me. DOC has stopped throwing BS since I started throwing the truth back at them. I suggest that you do the same as DOC, if your real intention is to find the best wild animal control solution.

You will also note that the work, I quoted from, was done in 2002, nearly a decade after the trapping work started. This means that the work has been going on for over 20 years and trapping contractors are still being employed.

One of the lessons learned, that is not mentioned in the DOC article, is the fact that possum contractors are more cost effective if contracts are tendered over a number of years and are not issued on a short term basis. In case you are having some trouble with written comprehension skills, this means that DOC has learned that the best use of trappers is to use long term output contracts.

You are never going to convince me that the trapping work is not happening, simply because DOC doesn't promote effective trapping as heavily as DOC promotes their preferred control methods, which includes the use of free, inexperienced, volunteer labour that require a step-by-step prescriptive "best practice formula", similar to what you are demanding of me.

When you started making posts and questioning me, I thought, at first, you were really interested in finding the best solution. I now believe that you do not want any changes to be made that will interfere with your current activities.

I suggest that you do some very real and hard thinking about the future of your wild animal control work as you could easily become a failure statistic the same as the failed possum contractors I mentioned earlier.




Yes you have obviously done your homework . TH, Oscar and myself yes we own the 1080 plant and we have made our fortunes from the poison industry.  Grin Grin

I have said it before in this thread "your ability to read what you want to read is outstanding"

Go on have a go at answering the question, how long is your rat trap line in km and how many days before you you get round it ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #74 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 2:59am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 2:41am:
Marty Foote wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:11am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
You wont give an answer how long your trap lines are because they are WAY to long for a single trapper to cover . 5000ha is just not coverable for a single trapper who is using Victor rat traps. The humble little mouse will see to that.
You work it out, half your 5100 traps are 25m apart and half are 100m apart. Tell me what that the trap line length is ? 
You then have your stoats and possums traps to clear as well, [possums have to be cleared daily if using leg holds as you know] and you said you could do wasps as well ! You wont be wearing boots, you will need sprinting shoes .

You put up the post "Lessons learnt", one of the lessons was poison had to be used and the other was trappers plural and that was only 850ha not your 5000ha.

Victors aint going to do it. Invest  half to three quarters of a million dollars worth of GN traps and then run your Victors if you must and you might have a show.

Like i said it is worth a try.


You are ignoring four things:

1) Trapper are covering 5,000ha as we speak. This is a fact. Just because you say it is not true doesn't make it so.

2) Victor traps are working. The work in the Urewera has been done with Victor traps. Good Nature traps were trialed, at Urewera, and rejected as not being as reliable as Victors. Good Nature then used the Urewera trappers as a leaning experience by asking the trappers to trial the Good Nature traps as the original design, rejected by the trappers, was improved. To put it bluntly, the only reason why Good Nature traps are as good as they are is because of the input by the trappers at Urewera.

3) The report does state "trappers", as in more than one trapper, more than one species and the trappers were covering 50,000ha in total.

4) Poison was initially used on a trial basis and was rejected. Poison was used again, after DOC slashed the budget and allowed the experienced rat trapper numbers to go down and, as a direct result of the slashed budget, DOC got caught out with an unusual rat eruption year, which required the use of inexperienced people to set out bait stations to a "best practice formula". If DOC had not slashed the budget and the experienced trapper numbers had been maintained there would have been no need to use any poisons.

I get the impression that you are personally benefiting from the rat control you are involved with. If this is true you are riding the same gravy train that is supporting the aerial 1080 industry.

Your arguments and wording are very similar to what DOC used to throw at me. DOC has stopped throwing BS since I started throwing the truth back at them. I suggest that you do the same as DOC, if your real intention is to find the best wild animal control solution.

You will also note that the work, I quoted from, was done in 2002, nearly a decade after the trapping work started. This means that the work has been going on for over 20 years and trapping contractors are still being employed.

One of the lessons learned, that is not mentioned in the DOC article, is the fact that possum contractors are more cost effective if contracts are tendered over a number of years and are not issued on a short term basis. In case you are having some trouble with written comprehension skills, this means that DOC has learned that the best use of trappers is to use long term output contracts.

You are never going to convince me that the trapping work is not happening, simply because DOC doesn't promote effective trapping as heavily as DOC promotes their preferred control methods, which includes the use of free, inexperienced, volunteer labour that require a step-by-step prescriptive "best practice formula", similar to what you are demanding of me.

When you started making posts and questioning me, I thought, at first, you were really interested in finding the best solution. I now believe that you do not want any changes to be made that will interfere with your current activities.

I suggest that you do some very real and hard thinking about the future of your wild animal control work as you could easily become a failure statistic the same as the failed possum contractors I mentioned earlier.




Yes you have obviously done your homework . TH, Oscar and myself yes we own the 1080 plant and we have made our fortunes from the poison industry.  Grin Grin

I have said it before in this thread "your ability to read what you want to read is outstanding"

Go on have a go at answering the question, how long is your rat trap line in km and how many days before you you get round it ?


I think that we have got to the point that talking with you about methods is not going to add anything to the knowledge base as you are so adamant that you are correct and, according to you, what facts I have presented, along with supporting information provided by DOC, are simply figments of my imagination.

TH was a NZFS and DOC manager before he retired. TH was paid to promote the use of 1080 and any other policies that his employer decided was relevant for DOC to promote. TH has continued with his pro-DOC line after he retired.

Oscar is an employee of Beef & Lamb and Beef & Lamb is a major shareholder of OSPRI who is contracted, by the NZ Government, to control possums for the purpose of Bovine TB control. Oscar may well be right that Beef & Lamb is not that interested in Oscar's views, however, we do know that MPI, OSPRI's major funder, is interested in what is being written here and Oscar now knows his posts are being monitored by the very fact that we are in dialogue.

Are you associated with one of the groups DOC is promoting at the link below? If so, can you please tell me which group your are working for.

https://www.doc.govt.nz/canterburygroups
  
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