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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Orange Fronted Kakariki (Read 78242 times)
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #45 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 3:00am
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so say at $60 per ha and 2-3 aerial drops over 10yr thats $180max ha over 10yrs. how can you pay staff to check lines 3-4 times a year for 9 years at a competitive price? you cant predict cost increases like wages etc that far out or any other hidden costs.
how would the contractor be paid? once they reach x rtc then get x amount of $$ what would be the incentive for the next 9yrs?  and whats to stop a contractor taking same boom and bust approach as 1080 and getting down to under 1% rtc the first year do nothing more for 8yrs then intensive trap the 9th year?

And I take it the initial knock down would rely on fur revenue to pay its way as I dont see how else you could do a longterm op for $180 Ha.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #46 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 6:36am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 3:00am:
so say at $60 per ha and 2-3 aerial drops over 10yr thats $180max ha over 10yrs. how can you pay staff to check lines 3-4 times a year for 9 years at a competitive price? you cant predict cost increases like wages etc that far out or any other hidden costs.
how would the contractor be paid? once they reach x rtc then get x amount of $$ what would be the incentive for the next 9yrs?  and whats to stop a contractor taking same boom and bust approach as 1080 and getting down to under 1% rtc the first year do nothing more for 8yrs then intensive trap the 9th year?

And I take it the initial knock down would rely on fur revenue to pay its way as I dont see how else you could do a longterm op for $180 Ha.


The equation is very simple. The contractor puts in a price that gives an annual payment if the animal densities are below the target. This is what happens in all other industries where long term contracts are let. How the contractor prices his contracts and goes about achieving the targets is up to the contractor.

Aerial 1080 drops have gone from a drop every 5-7 years to a drop every 2-3 years with many areas being planned to have 1080 dropped every second year giving a total cost of $60/ha x 5 drops = $300/ha or $30/ha/yr. Some of these areas also are having additional ground control to deal with stoats, cats, wasps, etc. Combine this with the fact that a number of the 1080 drops are failing to reduce the numbers of possums and rats to the target density and it is very clear that output trapping contractors can do a better, more cost effective job than 1080.

As I have already said, an open, fair and transparent tendering system is a very simple process and it resolves all the issues that you have raised and is the reason why many such contracts are tendered in many other industries. The big plus, for the organisation buying the animal control, is that if the work is not up to standard then there is no payment to be made.

This is the way things were done 30 years ago, until AHB, DOC and the Regional Councils started to manipulate the system to be input contract dominated with these organisations having virtual total control over the work methodology, the pricing of the contracts and the preferred contractors that ended up with the work, which has created a highly inefficient system that often fails to deliver the targeted results.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #47 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 6:26am
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So ballpark figures what do you think it would cost? 

I still dont see it being a viable alternative in many areas main reason is manpower or lack of it and experience to effectively undertake and also once opperations start moving away from easy access I see it getting very expensive and dont see it being economically viable.

In saying that I do hope that you will one day (sooner rather then later) get an opportunity to prove your method succesfully and prove everyone wrong.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #48 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 7:15am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:34am:
gonehuntin wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 9:51am:
understood, and fair argument about the tenders too.  are you saying you could control possum rats and mustelids at a competitive price to aerial 1080 or just possums ?  or a better job but more expensive but with longer interval before follow up?



Although my experience is with possums, I have spoken to the successful rat trappers and I believe that I can use my skills on targeting other animals as well as possums. In fact, many of the animals can be targeted at the same time as possums, using the same traps set for possums.

I believe that trappers can do a better, more cost effective job than 1080 within the 1080 budgets that are currently being spent. We have to surmise about the real cost of aerial 1080 as DOC and OSPRI refuse to release any individual 1080 operational budgets, citing commercial sensitivity as the reason for keeping the budgets out of the public view. We know that DOC and OSPRI start quoting 1080 at around $16/ha and, when pushed, they will lift this price to above $30/ha, AHB, in the 2010 cost review, wrote that aerial 1080 was costing $45+/ha and when individual 1080 operational components were added up the figure was very close to $60/ha. I have received an internal DOC budget for an aerial 1080 operation that has $60/ha as the quoted price. Prior to the Hunua 1080 operation, the Auckland Council staff produced a budget, of $17-18/ha, for approval by the Council, after the operation the cost expenditure quoted was over $34/ha, when asked why the price had doubled, from the pre-operation budget to what was spent, the response was that Auckland Council staff had no experience in using 1080 and had relied on advice from Environment Waikato and DOC to formulate the pre-operation budget and the advice received was wrong. None of these costings include all the costs of aerial 1080 with many expenditure components being a part of the DOC/OSPRI/Regional Council general expenditure and are never quantified.

Aerial 1080 and trapping are two totally different ways of going about achieving the same result and need to be looked at differently when long term planning is being done. Aerial 1080 is a series of one-off operations that take place 3-5 times in a 10 year period. Trapping is a continuous process that has phases. The first phase being the initial knock-down followed on by the maintenance phase, which is set up and established during the first phase.

In both methods, the 10-20 year planning time frame, currently being used by DOC and OSPRI, is essential for effective control. From a contractors point of view, the 1080 contractors need a long term guarantee of work to justify the expense of investing in expensive infrastructure and, from a trappers perspective, the longer the term of the contract the greater the incentive to lower the animal numbers to very low densities in the first year.

What is happening is that, although the 1080 contractors can rely on work over a 10 year period, the publicly promoted line is that all wild animal control is short term one-off contracts with the trappers being offered contract terms of between 3-12 months. This is highly inefficient and does not put the trappers skills to the best use. As an example, if the target is 5%RTC, the short term contractor will target 5%, on a 10 year contract the trapper will target 0%RTC, in the first year, knowing that the better the job done, in the first year, the less work will need to be done in the remaining 9 years. The trapping methods are different too, with leg-holds being used in the first phase and kill traps being used in the second phase. There are contracts that have succeeded in getting down to <1%, using leg-holds, and then maintaining <1% by the use of kill traps that are being checked 3-4 times per year.

Rats are different in that there needs to be a base-line continuous trapping pressure applied with added trapping intensity when there are unusual rat eruptions. The work has been done to prove that effective rat control can be achieved through the use of traps. The key to making rat trapping more effective, in the future, is to start collecting tree flowering quantities, success of pollination, predicted seed-fall and actual seed-fall as this information will provide a pattern that trappers can use to predict rat eruptions and alter their trapping programmes to compensate.

Cats, ferrets and hedghogs can be targeted at the same time as possums when leg-holds are being used. Kill traps can be used after the leg-holds have been removed.

Stoats can be trapped in the rat specific trap-sets and can also be targeted with stoat specific trap-sets.

Wasps are now considered to be a major predator of insects and bird chicks and the new wasp control system can be easily and cheaply deployed by the trappers as they go about their activities.

The key difference is that trapping can apply continuous pressure and maintain a consistent population density, while 1080 can only achieve a one-off reduction and then the population rises until the next 1080 application, which can cause a boom-bust situation, in rats, that maybe as damaging as doing nothing unless 1080 is applied, more often, to compensate.

While the focus is tying trappers to short term contracts and guaranteeing 1080 contractors work over the long term, there can never be competitive tendering as the system has been designed to make trappers inefficient and provide long term financial security for the 1080 contractors. This situation is further complicated by trappers performance being the best under output contracts (paid on results) and 1080 contractors only being prepared to sign input contracts (paid on work completed regardless of the results).

These issues have been canvassed between DOC and trappers, with the memorable DOC statement, made last year, being "DOC has no appetite for change" to which my response was "Well, we will just have work to increase DOC's appetite". DOC has accepted that change could happen and there are good reasons for making the change, with the change needing the will change and that has to come from the people who are making the decisions who are the elected politicians. There is a will for change in the Conservancies and this will is being overridden by instructions from Wellington.



Did we agree a while back that 5000ha was what a single trapper could cover to control ALL pests ? If it wasnt what was the figure in ha ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #49 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 7:38am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 6:26am:
So ballpark figures what do you think it would cost? 

I still dont see it being a viable alternative in many areas main reason is manpower or lack of it and experience to effectively undertake and also once opperations start moving away from easy access I see it getting very expensive and dont see it being economically viable.

In saying that I do hope that you will one day (sooner rather then later) get an opportunity to prove your method succesfully and prove everyone wrong.


Ballpark figures = Cost less than 1080.

The cost would vary depending on the block, the animals targeted and the final population densities required. Only by tendering the blocks, stating what the output targets are and asking for control proposals will there be any real sense as to what the final cost per individual block is.

So what if the cost is more than 1080 in the very remote Fiordland sheer-sided valleys...They can continue to drop 1080 over the Wapiti herd unless NZer's state they are prepared to pay more. There are plenty of easily accessible areas, such as RHAs, where 1080 is being dropped where there will be no trouble attracting trappers, the cost will be less than 1080 and the final wild animal control result will be superior than 1080.

Manpower...5,000ha/trapper after the initial knockdown and set up year....2 million hectares = 400 trappers. OSPRI reckons they are already employing more ground contractors for the farm work they are doing. There are actually people that prefer to live and work in remote areas and are prepared to forgo the dubious benefits of a cafe/cappuccino lifestyle.

Trapping has already been proven to be effective with OSPRI and DOC employing, and paying, the successful trappers for work that is superior to 1080. Trappers have even been used to clean up failed poison blocks.

The only people that are very opposed to the competitive tendering of output contracts are the people that work in the poison industry and are totally reliant on input contracts for their financial existence.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #50 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:39am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:34am:
gonehuntin wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 9:51am:
understood, and fair argument about the tenders too.  are you saying you could control possum rats and mustelids at a competitive price to aerial 1080 or just possums ?  or a better job but more expensive but with longer interval before follow up?



Although my experience is with possums, I have spoken to the successful rat trappers and I believe that I can use my skills on targeting other animals as well as possums. In fact, many of the animals can be targeted at the same time as possums, using the same traps set for possums.

I believe that trappers can do a better, more cost effective job than 1080 within the 1080 budgets that are currently being spent. We have to surmise about the real cost of aerial 1080 as DOC and OSPRI refuse to release any individual 1080 operational budgets, citing commercial sensitivity as the reason for keeping the budgets out of the public view. We know that DOC and OSPRI start quoting 1080 at around $16/ha and, when pushed, they will lift this price to above $30/ha, AHB, in the 2010 cost review, wrote that aerial 1080 was costing $45+/ha and when individual 1080 operational components were added up the figure was very close to $60/ha. I have received an internal DOC budget for an aerial 1080 operation that has $60/ha as the quoted price. Prior to the Hunua 1080 operation, the Auckland Council staff produced a budget, of $17-18/ha, for approval by the Council, after the operation the cost expenditure quoted was over $34/ha, when asked why the price had doubled, from the pre-operation budget to what was spent, the response was that Auckland Council staff had no experience in using 1080 and had relied on advice from Environment Waikato and DOC to formulate the pre-operation budget and the advice received was wrong. None of these costings include all the costs of aerial 1080 with many expenditure components being a part of the DOC/OSPRI/Regional Council general expenditure and are never quantified.

Aerial 1080 and trapping are two totally different ways of going about achieving the same result and need to be looked at differently when long term planning is being done. Aerial 1080 is a series of one-off operations that take place 3-5 times in a 10 year period. Trapping is a continuous process that has phases. The first phase being the initial knock-down followed on by the maintenance phase, which is set up and established during the first phase.

In both methods, the 10-20 year planning time frame, currently being used by DOC and OSPRI, is essential for effective control. From a contractors point of view, the 1080 contractors need a long term guarantee of work to justify the expense of investing in expensive infrastructure and, from a trappers perspective, the longer the term of the contract the greater the incentive to lower the animal numbers to very low densities in the first year.

What is happening is that, although the 1080 contractors can rely on work over a 10 year period, the publicly promoted line is that all wild animal control is short term one-off contracts with the trappers being offered contract terms of between 3-12 months. This is highly inefficient and does not put the trappers skills to the best use. As an example, if the target is 5%RTC, the short term contractor will target 5%, on a 10 year contract the trapper will target 0%RTC, in the first year, knowing that the better the job done, in the first year, the less work will need to be done in the remaining 9 years. The trapping methods are different too, with leg-holds being used in the first phase and kill traps being used in the second phase. There are contracts that have succeeded in getting down to <1%, using leg-holds, and then maintaining <1% by the use of kill traps that are being checked 3-4 times per year.

Rats are different in that there needs to be a base-line continuous trapping pressure applied with added trapping intensity when there are unusual rat eruptions. The work has been done to prove that effective rat control can be achieved through the use of traps. The key to making rat trapping more effective, in the future, is to start collecting tree flowering quantities, success of pollination, predicted seed-fall and actual seed-fall as this information will provide a pattern that trappers can use to predict rat eruptions and alter their trapping programmes to compensate.

Cats, ferrets and hedghogs can be targeted at the same time as possums when leg-holds are being used. Kill traps can be used after the leg-holds have been removed.

Stoats can be trapped in the rat specific trap-sets and can also be targeted with stoat specific trap-sets.

Wasps are now considered to be a major predator of insects and bird chicks and the new wasp control system can be easily and cheaply deployed by the trappers as they go about their activities.

The key difference is that trapping can apply continuous pressure and maintain a consistent population density, while 1080 can only achieve a one-off reduction and then the population rises until the next 1080 application, which can cause a boom-bust situation, in rats, that maybe as damaging as doing nothing unless 1080 is applied, more often, to compensate.

While the focus is tying trappers to short term contracts and guaranteeing 1080 contractors work over the long term, there can never be competitive tendering as the system has been designed to make trappers inefficient and provide long term financial security for the 1080 contractors. This situation is further complicated by trappers performance being the best under output contracts (paid on results) and 1080 contractors only being prepared to sign input contracts (paid on work completed regardless of the results).

These issues have been canvassed between DOC and trappers, with the memorable DOC statement, made last year, being "DOC has no appetite for change" to which my response was "Well, we will just have work to increase DOC's appetite". DOC has accepted that change could happen and there are good reasons for making the change, with the change needing the will change and that has to come from the people who are making the decisions who are the elected politicians. There is a will for change in the Conservancies and this will is being overridden by instructions from Wellington.




Rat traps, I presume these are GN24s at what density ?

Stoats in rat specific trap sets  ? Expand this please ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #51 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:33am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:39am:
Rat traps, I presume these are GN24s at what density ?

Stoats in rat specific trap sets  ? Expand this please ?


The most commonly used rat specific trap is the Victor Professional snap trap. This is the main trap that has been used at the Urewera Mainland Island for 20 years. Stoats are caught in these traps. The latest rat specific trap is the Good Nature self-setting rat trap and stoats are not caught in these traps.

At this stage, for both the trap types, the cost of the rat kills is around $5/rat killing power purchased. This means that the Victor traps are cheaper to purchase as only the required killing power needs to be paid for as the individual Victor rat kills can be spread out, whereas, the whole 24 Good Nature rat kills must be put in the same place regardless of whether the kills will be used or not.

The trap density is related to the rat population density and is not able to be quantified until the block has been identified, the target rat density has been set and the trappers start working and discover how the rat population is behaving.

The way the rat trapping system works is the number of traps is established to keep the rats below the target threshold during the normal, background rat density and more traps are added during unusual rat eruptions. Bait stations have been added during unusual rat eruptions and this has the same effect as adding more traps into the system.

Over a given area the rat density can change markedly and the density of traps needed will be different depending on localised rat densities.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #52 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:49pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:33am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:39am:
Rat traps, I presume these are GN24s at what density ?

Stoats in rat specific trap sets  ? Expand this please ?


The most commonly used rat specific trap is the Victor Professional snap trap. This is the main trap that has been used at the Urewera Mainland Island for 20 years. Stoats are caught in these traps. The latest rat specific trap is the Good Nature self-setting rat trap and stoats are not caught in these traps.

At this stage, for both the trap types, the cost of the rat kills is around $5/rat killing power purchased. This means that the Victor traps are cheaper to purchase as only the required killing power needs to be paid for as the individual Victor rat kills can be spread out, whereas, the whole 24 Good Nature rat kills must be put in the same place regardless of whether the kills will be used or not.

The trap density is related to the rat population density and is not able to be quantified until the block has been identified, the target rat density has been set and the trappers start working and discover how the rat population is behaving.

The way the rat trapping system works is the number of traps is established to keep the rats below the target threshold during the normal, background rat density and more traps are added during unusual rat eruptions. Bait stations have been added during unusual rat eruptions and this has the same effect as adding more traps into the system.

Over a given area the rat density can change markedly and the density of traps needed will be different depending on localised rat densities.


What does the first highlighted bit mean ? A Victor trap [that cost $10, not $5] has the same cost as a GN per kill ? 

I really struggle with the idea you could use Victor traps in beech forest. In my trapping experience mice will have removed the bait overnight, mostly without tripping the trap but sometimes being caught and i am not trapping in beech forest . I have almost given up using Victor rat traps because of mice. I know other trapping groups that are the same and are using mouse excluders to protect bait from mice.

Bait stations ? What bait would you be using ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #53 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 11:21pm
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:49pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:33am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:39am:
Rat traps, I presume these are GN24s at what density ?

Stoats in rat specific trap sets  ? Expand this please ?


The most commonly used rat specific trap is the Victor Professional snap trap. This is the main trap that has been used at the Urewera Mainland Island for 20 years. Stoats are caught in these traps. The latest rat specific trap is the Good Nature self-setting rat trap and stoats are not caught in these traps.

At this stage, for both the trap types, the cost of the rat kills is around $5/rat killing power purchased. This means that the Victor traps are cheaper to purchase as only the required killing power needs to be paid for as the individual Victor rat kills can be spread out, whereas, the whole 24 Good Nature rat kills must be put in the same place regardless of whether the kills will be used or not.

The trap density is related to the rat population density and is not able to be quantified until the block has been identified, the target rat density has been set and the trappers start working and discover how the rat population is behaving.

The way the rat trapping system works is the number of traps is established to keep the rats below the target threshold during the normal, background rat density and more traps are added during unusual rat eruptions. Bait stations have been added during unusual rat eruptions and this has the same effect as adding more traps into the system.

Over a given area the rat density can change markedly and the density of traps needed will be different depending on localised rat densities.


What does the first highlighted bit mean ? A Victor trap [that cost $10, not $5] has the same cost as a GN per kill ? 

I really struggle with the idea you could use Victor traps in beech forest. In my trapping experience mice will have removed the bait overnight, mostly without tripping the trap but sometimes being caught and i am not trapping in beech forest . I have almost given up using Victor rat traps because of mice. I know other trapping groups that are the same and are using mouse excluders to protect bait from mice.

Bait stations ? What bait would you be using ?


The quote I have, from a NZ Victor trap importer, is just under $5 each. The equation relates to the killing power purchased. One killing power is one trap set-off. 24 x $5 =$120 and the cost of 1 Good Nature is around $120.

Here is an international price in US dollars. Do the $$ conversion, add taxes and the price is under $5 each.

https://www.amazon.com/Victor-Traps-M326-9Traps-VST010/dp/B002Y5US3S

24 Victors can be spread over a larger area than 1 Good Nature.

The Victor treadles have a lure impregnated into them so the lure you put on adds to what is already there. Contract trappers are very good at designing ways around problems encountered, when it affects their bottom line, and they will find ways of dealing with problems encountered or they won't get paid. All the current methods of using poison were first used by possum hunters, which were then adopted and improved by the poison industry, this includes the encapsulation of poisons.

The Victors are working well in many areas and are effectively controlling rat numbers.

Cholicolciferol was used in the Urewera during an unusual rat eruption. Adding more traps would have done the same job and I would prefer to use more traps.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #54 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:52am
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You gotta build a box to put the trap in, that will add $6 , without the  labour building it.

I would of thought Victors would of had to of been in a higher density than the GN as the GNs are continually catching. Soon as the bait has been eaten by a mouse or the trap has triggered it has stopped working, you have not got a dogs show of checking and clearing all those traps .

I wouldnt use a Victor just using the plastic treadle as a lure and i would think any pro trapper would be the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aql_gFGRGoI







  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #55 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:06am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:52am:
You gotta build a box to put the trap in, that will add $6 , without the  labour building it.

I would of thought Victors would of had to of been in a higher density than the GN as the GNs are continually catching. Soon as the bait has been eaten by a mouse or the trap has triggered it has stopped working, you have not got a dogs show of checking and clearing all those traps .

I wouldnt use a Victor just using the plastic treadle as a lure and i would think any pro trapper would be the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aql_gFGRGoI


I don't have to build a box-set simply because you are using a box-set.

I wouldn't use a box-set because box-sets are expensive to make, time consuming to move around and an unknown percentage of stoats will not enter the box-sets.

I would use natural materials, to create trap-sets, and I would consider using other easily transportable materials, like wire mesh, as has been used elsewhere.

Your comment about traps stopping working doesn't make any sense. 24 Victors can set-off 24 times and 1 Good Nature trap can set-off 24 times. The difference being that 24 rats have to come to 1 Good Nature trap-set while 24 Victor traps can be spread out over a larger area. This means that, in a low rat density environment, the Good Nature might only kill 2-3 rats and have 22-23 set-offs that don't happen, while the spread out Victors could kill 24 rats and have no unused set-offs over the same time period.

The fact of the matter is, there are trappers clearing and setting large numbers of Victors and achieving effective rat control.

There are many different ways of luring traps other than smearing peanut butter. An example could be taken from possum trapping in pine forests where trap theft was a problem, some trappers stopped luring with visible flour and started squirting oil based lure behind the trap. The problem was that the possums and rats chewed the oil coated bark and the chewed bark ended up being a visual attraction.

With a treadle set trap, the animal doesn't need to eat anything, all you have to do is encourage the animal to investigate the trap-set. This is why leg-hold traps are so effective where possums have become poison-shy as the trap is passive, whereas, the act of eating is active and the animal must make a decision to eat something. You could try wrapping a piece of good smelling cloth where you smear peanut butter, or hang the cloth above the trap and haze the trap in a way that the rat must walk on the treadle to investigate the trap-set.....There are many ways to lure a trap-set that is only limited by your imagination.

The fact that we have different ways of looking at things and you do not believe that what other people are successfully doing is a solution for you, is a very good reason for tendering output performance contracts so that best, most cost effective methods will end up being utilised.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #56 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:57am
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I have just gone and checked 6 [1 stoat and 5 Victor rat]  of my local traps while taking the dog for a run. 2 i have not checked them for over a week. I caught 1 mouse , had 1 sprung empty and the other 3 traps  had the peanut butter completely eaten off the treadle and were not going to catch anything. Those 5 were examples of traps that were not going to catch anything. If the peanut butter had been eaten off those traps in the first night it makes there catching ability even less successful ? Stick those traps in a high mouse area and the bait would be eaten off the traps by the time you had walked to the next trap !!!


I am not going to go over the boxes again as it is pointless but trapping in weka, kiwi and certainly kea areas it would be legally mandatory i would think, if not legally it certainly would be morally. You are there trapping to save birds not let them walk into traps.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #57 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 4:12am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:06am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:52am:
You gotta build a box to put the trap in, that will add $6 , without the  labour building it.

I would of thought Victors would of had to of been in a higher density than the GN as the GNs are continually catching. Soon as the bait has been eaten by a mouse or the trap has triggered it has stopped working, you have not got a dogs show of checking and clearing all those traps .

I wouldnt use a Victor just using the plastic treadle as a lure and i would think any pro trapper would be the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aql_gFGRGoI


I don't have to build a box-set simply because you are using a box-set.

I wouldn't use a box-set because box-sets are expensive to make, time consuming to move around and an unknown percentage of stoats will not enter the box-sets.

I would use natural materials, to create trap-sets, and I would consider using other easily transportable materials, like wire mesh, as has been used elsewhere.

Your comment about traps stopping working doesn't make any sense. 24 Victors can set-off 24 times and 1 Good Nature trap can set-off 24 times. The difference being that 24 rats have to come to 1 Good Nature trap-set while 24 Victor traps can be spread out over a larger area. This means that, in a low rat density environment, the Good Nature might only kill 2-3 rats and have 22-23 set-offs that don't happen, while the spread out Victors could kill 24 rats and have no unused set-offs over the same time period.

The fact of the matter is, there are trappers clearing and setting large numbers of Victors and achieving effective rat control.

There are many different ways of luring traps other than smearing peanut butter. An example could be taken from possum trapping in pine forests where trap theft was a problem, some trappers stopped luring with visible flour and started squirting oil based lure behind the trap. The problem was that the possums and rats chewed the oil coated bark and the chewed bark ended up being a visual attraction.

With a treadle set trap, the animal doesn't need to eat anything, all you have to do is encourage the animal to investigate the trap-set. This is why leg-hold traps are so effective where possums have become poison-shy as the trap is passive, whereas, the act of eating is active and the animal must make a decision to eat something. You could try wrapping a piece of good smelling cloth where you smear peanut butter, or hang the cloth above the trap and haze the trap in a way that the rat must walk on the treadle to investigate the trap-set.....There are many ways to lure a trap-set that is only limited by your imagination.

The fact that we have different ways of looking at things and you do not believe that what other people are successfully doing is a solution for you, is a very good reason for tendering output performance contracts so that best, most cost effective methods will end up being utilised.


To my mind part of what makes a good trapper is the ability of the trapper to get the animal to present itself to get a clean kill.

The reason that you smear the peanut butter on the treadle is that you are encouraging the animal to stick its head on the treadle presenting its head so the kill bar can get a clean kill. Getting the animal close to the trap so it can catch "somewhere" is pretty ugly at best.


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #58 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:35am
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5000ha for 1 trapper?  that seems a very large area for 1 guy to do effectively, what sort of trap densities would you be proposing for such operation?

I think the only way you would ever get doc onboard would be a proposal that involved a valley or similar layout where 1 side could get docs normal 1080 treatment and the otherside you could undertake your trapping masterplan and compare progress and results. I guess a control area for a natural population comparison would be helpful aswell.

are you totally against any toxins marty?  As I think many have their place.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #59 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:55am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:57am:
I have just gone and checked 6 [1 stoat and 5 Victor rat]  of my local traps while taking the dog for a run. 2 i have not checked them for over a week. I caught 1 mouse , had 1 sprung empty and the other 3 traps  had the peanut butter completely eaten off the treadle and were not going to catch anything. Those 5 were examples of traps that were not going to catch anything. If the peanut butter had been eaten off those traps in the first night it makes there catching ability even less successful ? Stick those traps in a high mouse area and the bait would be eaten off the traps by the time you had walked to the next trap !!!


I am not going to go over the boxes again as it is pointless but trapping in weka, kiwi and certainly kea areas it would be legally mandatory i would think, if not legally it certainly would be morally. You are there trapping to save birds not let them walk into traps.


You have a system that works for you and other people have systems that work for them.

The system I am describing has worked effectively, for 20 years, and has used trap-sets created with materials, other than wooden boxes, that deters birds. The only things that I have against wooden box-sets is that they are bulky, are time expensive to deploy, deter some stoats from entering and there are other alternatives, already in use, that resolve these problems.

The system I am describing has also relied on Victor traps and has achieved effective rat control before and after Good Nature traps were invented. I don't have any real problems with Good Nature traps, except for the purchase price, and I can see places, such as very high rat densities, where I will be able to use them to their best potential.

I'm not sure why you are criticising, so harshly, a system that doesn't work for you and does work for others.

When the Victor No.1 leg-holds were introduced to the NZ market, trappers wouldn't use them claiming things like: they are too small, they won't hold big possums, they are hard too set and some trappers bought a few and claimed they didn't work as well as gins and No.1 1/2s. I was one of the first trappers to switch totally to No.1s, on a successful performance contract, I might add. Within a decade, the original detractors had switched to No.1s and were singing the virtues of small, light, can carry more traps, will hold possums caught by the toes, can be set to not catch rats, etc and the reasons used to earlier nay-say were no longer being heard.

There is no "best practice prescribed formula" for any animal control as the needs change with the block, the weather, time of year, animal density, what they are feeding on, where they are feeding, what the required outcome is, etc. The only way there can be ongoing, consistent, effective control is to employ experienced trappers that have learned how to deal with all the variables and the only way you can get the best, and improving, results is to let output contracts where the trappers are paid on results. This will encourage healthy competition as good trappers are very individualistic, like to think they can do things the best and will be continuously working to improve their performance to, not only, be better wild animal controllers, but, to improve their own financial returns as well.

While healthy debate, about effective methods, is important, the debate becomes unhealthy, and stymies innovation, when any one method is dictated as being the only method to be used and the work is then contracted out on "best practice prescribed formula" type input contracts, where the animal control results become secondary to completing a prescribed formula of work. This is the situation we find ourselves in today, with the output contract thinking trappers being excluded and any innovation is being driven by the needs of government managers, politicians and scientists, very few of whom have any personal, hands-on experience with full time wild animal control work.
  
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