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Normal Topic Exhaustion, knockout, or what? (Read 2718 times)
Aunty
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Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Oct 12th, 2010 at 11:05am
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Hi Ethos

up in the hills the other night and the pack got onto a small mob, that we never saw.

2 of my dogs latched onto and quickly killed a small'un, but Zak my main tracked and chased off after what looked like a decent dog going by the mark.

We heard him hit it once at about 800meters, but then he went over a ridge and out of earshot, but we still had him locked on the GPS at 1.4km and stopped in a creek, so all looked good we thought and off we briskly went.

Whilst running to his position i kept looking at the GPS and the whole time he was stopped. Once over the ridge and about 600m away i xpected to hear barking or a scrap going on but nothing. We got as close as we could by track then drpped off the side into a supplejack filled nightmare for the last 300meters.

I went to exactly where it showed the dog was stopped and nothing.....

that was until i heard a low dog groan from the fern and parting ferns found my mate laying on his side, eyes glazed over, alive, but hardly with it.

I turned him over fearing the worse but he was unmarked so began a careful feel over of him from head to tail and again nothing nor any obvious tender spots. We tried to lift him and stand him up but he was complete jelly. I have seen heat stroked and exhausted dogs before but this looked different as there was no tiredness or panting as such, just a dog that looked heavily sedated.

There is no poison in this area that i know of and the day was probably 17 degrees so i dont think it was poison or heat.

We gave him half an hour a the scene and got some water into him but he was still a woozy mess. We carried him back to the leading ridge before dark and he was so coma'd he pissed all over me twice whilst being carried. At the ridge we gave him another hour in the dark, and slowly, very slowly he came right. 2 hours later by 10pm you wouldnt have known anything was wrong and he was his old self.

It seems to me in my opinion that it was a knockout he potentially suffered, as he is one fit dog and that work and the distance is chicken feed for him.

What is your opinion please form the above information, and is there anything else i need to get him checked for that could have caused this. My only surprise about the guessed knockout is i expected to find a tender area when feeling him over

For the record his is a g'hound/cattle/american bull cross about 3 years old.
  

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ghost of ethos
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #1 - Oct 12th, 2010 at 11:48am
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Im glad hes feeling better now.

Its a tricky one to know without seeing him, but it could be something like an epileptic fit - a rise in body temperature like when hunting hard can sometimes trigger a "fit".
Hes in about the right age group - it usually comes to the surface in dogs of about this age (young adult), if its going to.
To make the diagnosis of epilepsy, youve pretty much got to rule out out everything else as theres no single test for it.
Usually id do a blood test to check its not a weird liver or hormonal problem or something unexpected like hypoglycaemia (usually he would have been crook for a while if that was the case to be fair).

If it is epilepsy: some dogs have a single fit and no other issues again. Some dogs may have occasional fits of a few minutes duration which arent a big deal.
Some animals have multiple fits in a day or several in a week and need medication - the medication sedates and this wouldnt be conducive to hunting.
Just as with people, activity (temperature rise), loud noises, lots of visual stimulation can sometimes trigger an episode.

A true epileptic fit has 3 phases, the dog usually behaves a bit "off" before hand, might wander about a bit or sniff or whine, then the true fit phase where they might go over, paddle, salivate or urinate, then the end phase when they are often woozey afterwards.

Watch him closely to see if similar happens again and if you can pick the phases. If in doubt, getting a blood test might help rule out some other stuff.
  
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #2 - Oct 12th, 2010 at 1:10pm
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My first thought too Aunty. Had two epileptic dogs now and that sounds very familiar..

Because we were often a very long way fom anywhere, bloody cold , and didnt fancy dragging a dog out half concious, I used to carry a vial of Valium at all times and found that an IM injection, would bring her back to almost normal, within minutes.

An IV would bring it out of a fit within 30 seconds, but thats a big ask out in the bush.

GOE might not approve as a professional, but there are situations where extreme measures are the best option.

  

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Aunty
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #3 - Oct 12th, 2010 at 1:21pm
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cheers guys

theres been no sign of it at all previously ( not that i have seen anyway ) but i will certainly watch for this now

fingers crossed its not
  

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ghost of ethos
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #4 - Oct 12th, 2010 at 1:57pm
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headcase wrote on Oct 12th, 2010 at 1:10pm:
My first thought too Aunty. Had two epileptic dogs now and that sounds very familiar..

Because we were often a very long way fom anywhere, bloody cold , and didnt fancy dragging a dog out half concious, I used to carry a vial of Valium at all times and found that an IM injection, would bring her back to almost normal, within minutes.

An IV would bring it out of a fit within 30 seconds, but thats a big ask out in the bush.

GOE might not approve as a professional, but there are situations where extreme measures are the best option.


Its not unheard of for the vet to dispense small quantities of medication in case of emergency.
Valium is very handy for helping to control moderate siezures. Its one of the first drugs of choice in clinic for acute epileptic siezures given IV.
You can give the liquid form per rectum ( Shocked ) and it saves messing around with needles although takes a few minutes longer to kick in.

Even if it is Epilepsy Aunty, it wont necessarily happen often or even again, and only a small minority of dogs require medication.

edit: oops might have missed the last bit HC.
I think its understandable to consider "extreme measures" if a condition turned out to compromise the animals purpose. Im no believer in keeping animals alive with no quality of life.
That said, we dont know the dog definately has epilepsy, and we dont know severity.
  
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #5 - Oct 13th, 2010 at 7:33am
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hey aunty, just a thought, remember when you were up and we got a run the second morning, one of your dogs was just stopped for ages, you went back and looked and after quite a while it came back, was that zak?
  
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Aunty
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #6 - Oct 13th, 2010 at 10:34am
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yeah mate, but MEB and I heard barks and the odd hit that day and the download later showed a big tussle at that spot, so he wasn't treed the whole time mate
  

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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #7 - Oct 13th, 2010 at 10:56am
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This could be completely out of left field, but is there any Ongaonga (tree nettle) in where you hunt Aunty?  A mate of mine had one of his bitches go through that shit while trying to stop a young boar. It knocked the bitch for six, it apparently took her a couple of days to come right.  

Just a thought.  Glad Zaks come right.  
  
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #8 - Oct 13th, 2010 at 1:01pm
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Aunty wrote on Oct 13th, 2010 at 10:34am:
yeah mate, but MEB and I heard barks and the odd hit that day and the download later showed a big tussle at that spot, so he wasn't treed the whole time mate


yep i heard the bail to, just thought he might have floped over or something. ragingbulls idea has merit i rekon????
  
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #9 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 8:59am
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got blood results back

i forget the vets exact terminology, but basically showed that the liver had suffered a minor tweake as a reult of raised liver enzymes and a slighly disproportionate red cell count, most likely as a result of interrupted or inconsistent bloodflow which my vet believes was likely result of exhaustion/over exertion. there was no other infection or anything else that bloods revealed

ethos, your thoughts please on this if you hav a mo mate
  

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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #10 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 9:48am
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sounds very similar to what happened to  a monteria of mine. We caught a young boar and she didn't follow when we left. had to walk back up and she was just lying on her side. looked buggered. gums had lost colour. didn't look good. carried her a fair way home. then force fed her some sweet drink and she perked up and walked the rest of the way. took her to the vet with the inevitable blood test and money making schemes. came back with a similar line to yours. Don't think he knew, just needed something to cover for the expense. I had always noticed she didn't drink while hunting, no matter how good the water and always wondered if this was the cause.
carried a carbo shot drink thing after that.

grey brindle on the right.
  
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #11 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 10:02am
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Cowboy wrote on Oct 14th, 2010 at 9:48am:
sounds very similar to what happened to  a monteria of mine. We caught a young boar and she didn't follow when we left. had to walk back up and she was just lying on her side. looked buggered. gums had lost colour. didn't look good. carried her a fair way home. then force fed her some sweet drink and she perked up and walked the rest of the way. took her to the vet with the inevitable blood test and money making schemes. came back with a similar line to yours. Don't think he knew, just needed something to cover for the expense. I had always noticed she didn't drink while hunting, no matter how good the water and always wondered if this was the cause.
carried a carbo shot drink thing after that.

grey brindle on the right.


funny you say that bro, re the drinking thing, cause i am always amazed at how little zak drinks on the hill, atually how much he drinks full stop. When all the other dogs are drinking a in a creek or laying in a creek, he's off hunting again.....
  

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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #12 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 10:58am
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Try putting the evening or morning food in the drinking bowl before you go up the hill. Sought of a soup, or a dash of milk in the drinking water.  That usually gets em to take on water and hydrated

You may not even bother with feeding bowls if your out and about I guess , but an empty ice cream container is light to carry and can be put into a back pack and filled with other bits and pieces.

Mine doesnt drink when we are up in the snow either, but at altitude they dehydrate quicker.  I have to force feed her water using the methods above.
  

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ghost of ethos
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #13 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 11:19am
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Cowboy wrote on Oct 14th, 2010 at 9:48am:
sounds very similar to what happened to  a monteria of mine. We caught a young boar and she didn't follow when we left. had to walk back up and she was just lying on her side. looked buggered. gums had lost colour. didn't look good. carried her a fair way home. then force fed her some sweet drink and she perked up and walked the rest of the way. took her to the vet with the inevitable blood test and money making schemes. came back with a similar line to yours. Don't think he knew, just needed something to cover for the expense. I had always noticed she didn't drink while hunting, no matter how good the water and always wondered if this was the cause.
carried a carbo shot drink thing after that.

grey brindle on the right.

You are being tongue in cheek I hope Cowboy, read the above post on why tests are done, there is no single test for epilepsy.
If done close to the time of incident the blood test should also pick up signs of dehydration.
  
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #14 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 8:04pm
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Wasn't a chance he got knocked out at all??
  

The kill is not the bottom line reason for the hunt, but it cannot be removed from the equation
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #15 - Oct 14th, 2010 at 11:15pm
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We dropped a few posts there with the server change over regarding the blood test.
It takes a fair bit to K.O. a dog and some sort of trauma should have been visible around the head - bruising etc if that was the case.
  
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #16 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 3:30pm
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Hi Ethos

further to this topic have made further investigations, both with Massey whom I understand have reasearched this, vis two seperate vet sources.

There is currently a swaying towards trichenella ( spelling!) as a likely suspect, for what has unofficially been labelled 'northland pig hunting disease '

have you any thoughts on this. I understand in humans its a fairly serious condition. could it manifest itself in the way i have explained, is there cures. my question on whether drontal would fix it was laughed at lol

cheers again mate
  

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ethos
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #17 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 5:59pm
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I'll see what I can dig up for you Aunty.
Off the top of my head , I wouldnt have laughed off the drontal - although that particular wormer might not kill the parasite in muscle, other wormers  like fenbendazole (most often seen as a drench)might be able to.
In people the symptoms are fever, muscle pain, weakness and swelling, Ill see what i can track down on signs in dogs- its not something Ive diagnosed before.
The american literature might be a good place for me to start, trichenalla can infect bears and wolves I think.
  
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ethos
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #18 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 6:14pm
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Ok clinical signs of trichinella in dogs: vomiting, lethargy, diarhoea.
may also develop fever, reluctance to move, weakness, swelling.
Uncommon in dogs.

Diagnosed by seeing larvae in blood, or on muscle biopsy - the signs seen are caused by the larval stage encysting in muscle tissue as Im sure you know (the same thing can happen to people eating undercooked pork).

Treatment can be given in the form of fenbendazole or mebendazole but the problem is usually self limiting.

I wouldnt be convinced trichinella is causing this at this point Aunty, but its worth considering.


  
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #19 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 6:26pm
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thanks mate

heres a copy n paste of another post on a different forum by the lady whom is investigating it quite thoroughly

****************

Hi all,
No conclusive results as yet, but I would like to take blood samples from pigs trapped in the areas known for "go slow" - if anyone could help with this would love to hear from you!
A few things have come to light however during the research so I shall share these with you all and hopefully they will be of some benefit.

Firstly, dogs that are in good health and condition appear to recover quicker and also have a lot less drastic effects from go slow. Dogs in poor condition, wormy etc. have the worse symptoms and the majority of the fatalities, also these dogs are more prone to relapses.

1) Vaccinate dogs for lepto, "leptoguard" is a separate vaccine from the 5 in one (usually "Vanguard" )that is given to pups so you need to specifically ask for the lepto shots. Importantly make sure you have annual booster shots given on time - with lepto vaccines you start with 1 shot 4 weeks apart then annual boosters, but you only have a 14 day window with the annuals so if you go 13 months or more from the last shot the dog no longer has any cover for lepto and you have to start again with the 4 weeks apart regime . Lepto is a zoonoses which means it can be transmitted to other animals and humans as well!

2) Worming, this is big, internal and external (fleas, mites, ticks, lice) parasites can play havoc with a dogs' immune system, - hookworm is a real baddy as it can be very drench resistant. Signs of hookworm infestation is a dog licking its' paws a lot and a reddish brown stain on the hair between the toes - hookworm can also be picked up off the ground by humans so if your dogs' have it and you or your kids are wandering around the dog area in barefeet you can get it too!

3) Using supplements such as "Exceed" will help keep the dogs' vitamin and energy levels at peak, particulary important is vitamin E which contributes to muscle function - muscle wasting is one aspect of "Go Slow". Note that if your feeding iron, B12, or copper supplements do NOT give these in the same meal as vitamin E as these products cancel the E out.

4) The use of "Betacel" is crucial to prevent acidosis. Acidosis in even the mildest form will slow a dog up. It has been called Heat exhaustion in the past and can also occur when dogs have a really tough day out hunting or working and are not at peak fitness or health. NEVER give your dog horse or cattle electrolytes, these animals systems work differently from a dogs' and you could end up doing more damage than good! Betacel is available online or by phone from Garrards' Horse and Hound, Cambridge and Christchurch and they deliver nationwide.

5) If your dog has been diagnosed as having "go slow" DO NOT hunt it or work it for at least 120 days. Go slow annhialates a dogs red blood cell count along with liver and kidney damage to various degrees, and it is crucial that all these systems have a chance to get back into top working order. Even if your dog is bouncing round like a million bucks, this just means its' making a great recovery. Running them again to soon only increases your chances of a relapse and permanent damage to your dog.

Hope this helps and any questions, fire away, Also anyone interested in helping with some pig trapping in the bad go slow areas please get hold of me, I do beleive the pigs themselves may hold the answers and it is only by being able to take blood samples from the pigs populations in these areas that we might get some conclusive information

****************

and another that may shed some light

*************************

Hi guys ive got a mate up north here who has now got the go slow in his culling dogs and was talking with him today about it. One / the vets know fa#k all about it. He had blood done and got another mate of our's to analyze it, It is a breakdown in the liver processing all the bad shit. And they have found meat either fresh or frozen will bring it back on strait away if the toxins are not out of the system first. He has gone to a strait diet of cheap biscuits and no fat or protein or very small amount it seems to be working at this stage. I will try and get him to e mail me all they have found out and post it up... Good luck it sounds like a real pian in the arse
  

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ethos
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #20 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:11pm
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Its interesting Aunty.
Id disagree with the vet above that acidosis is the same as heat exhaustion - if youve ever seen a dog with actual heat exhaustion you will know what i mean!
reading between the lines shes covering the bases well - cover for lepto, mineral imbalance, other parasites and so on.
  
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ethos
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #21 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:23pm
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Just to hark back to your blood results, Aunty, was there any rise in eosinophils?
eosinophils are type of blood cell that is sometimes elevated with parasitism (including trichinella) -its not always a reliable indicator but could be a clue.
  
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Aunty
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Re: Exhaustion, knockout, or what?
Reply #22 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 7:50pm
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will have to ask my vet bro

the mistake i made was taking him for the bloods a few days later, not immediately, hence other things like hypoglycemia results were not really current

i have made the decision to give him a 12 week break and reappraise

thanks agin, the help is really appreciated
  

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Reply #23 - Nov 8th, 2010 at 10:16pm
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No worries Aunty - not that Im being much help to ya, we are all still learning about this one  Smiley
  
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