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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) Trademe and firearm licence numbers (Read 10382 times)
NZVarminter
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Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:19am
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Well I've just be locked out of Trademe because I gave an invalid firearms licence number!

I got an email from support@trademe.co.nz saying the following

"We note that you have continued to enter incorrect firearms licence information when bidding on a firearm.

As stated in a previous email to you, this is a very serious matter and your ability to bid on auctions in the rifle and shotgun categories has been removed.

If you fax us a photocopy of your firearms licence we will re-enable this ability. Please fax this to us on 04 974 4820 and include your username on the fax. Alternatively, you can email us a copy of your firearms licence as an attachment to tmcs@trademe.co.nz.

If you have any questions regarding this issue please use the 'contact us' link at the bottom of any Trade Me page."

Well I've looked in the "Contact us" link and I'm buggered if I can find any "contact details", No ph numbers, no email. Trademe dont want to talk to their customers at all!

So it appears the only option I have to send them an abusive fax or email to tmcs@trademe.co.nz.

How about everyone who uses trademe for firearms faxing them on 04 974 4820 advising them that their requirement to provide your firearms licence number is a serious breach of privacy, and you therefore want an assurance they will not give this information out and if they cant give you that assurance, you will stop using trademe!

You could also ask them to provide some real contact details on their contact links page so their customers can actually talk to someone!

Come on, if they suddenly received 150 faxes complaining, they may reconsider their policy!

Cheers

Grant





  
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Spiker
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #1 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:25am
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They arn't worth dealing with. buggered if I want to make them any money
  
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gamehunter
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #2 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 11:41am
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they have an 0900 number which I think is stupid as they are making more money when you ring them about anything even though trademe is an avenue for selling and buying I feel that they need to have a normal landline number for general issues
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #3 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 12:29pm
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NZVarminter wrote on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:19am:
Come on, if they suddenly received 150 faxes complaining, they may reconsider their policy!


To be honest, nice idea but TM are going to do whatever they please. A check right now shows over 43,000 people online.

All you can do is choose to purchase somewhere else.

or setup another account, but don't continue to use a wrong FAL number  Smiley
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #4 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 12:34pm
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Two questions - how do they know the number is false and ... why does it matter if they know what your licence number is?
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #5 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 1:21pm
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If I sent the police a offical information request asking how a private company is getting and verifying our firearms licence numbers, they would have to comply wouldnt they? Undecided
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #6 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 4:06pm
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I asked this question:

Just wondering why it is compulsory to enter a firearms licence number for asking questions on Firearms? It is noted in the announcments that this is to comply with the law.

I feel it is a concern that a third party could be holding my contact details, address etc and my firearms licence.

What assurances do you have that prevent these details from being released?


This was the response I recieved:


Dear Jordan,

Thanks for contacting us.

We hold firearms license numbers securely and do not forward them to anybody else except where we are legally required, i.e if we have been served a search warrant by the police.

Although we initially only required firearms license numbers when bidding on firearms, many members were trying to bypass this by placing their contact details in the Q&A. As much as we don't want this to happen, at least now if it does we have a record of who has purchased the firearm. This means we are in a better position to help the police if something horrible happens as a result of someone procuring a firearm off Trade Me.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Sophia-Grace

Trade Me Support

  

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yawn
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #7 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 4:56pm
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Iv had a 3 day email battle with them, they know my thoughts and they have not got my FAL number.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #8 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 5:43pm
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Dont give trademe your firearms licence number. You will be giving up your own personal security. It only takes a disgruntled ex trademe staff member to sell your data to the higest bidder. It is not there right to collect this data from you.

Do attempt to contact the person privately through the auction - use the pretense that you want to inspect the goods. This allows you to initaite a private sale. You then only run the risk of abusing the trademe rules and this is hard to prove.

  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #9 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 6:14pm
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Hey all,

I can understand why people are getting a bit cranky about this, but do any of you guys give out your visa number to buy goods? goods that could be ammo, or anything else gun related? if you do, whats the probs about a license number? when you buy a gun through a shop, they take down your details.

Everyone to there own opinion and i'm not supporting trademe, but obviously they are allowed to do what they're doing, and if you dont like it, dont use them. Simple.

Grant
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #10 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 7:04pm
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the issue is that if trademe user details end up in the wrong hands, someone will be a very large list of people and addresses who have a firearms license and are therefore a good candidate for having firearms stolen!

Trademe have no legal requirement to hold or verify that the person they are "brokering" the deal has a firearms licence, that up to the individuals making hte sale/purchase

  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #11 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 8:11pm
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grunta wrote on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 6:14pm:
Hey all,
I can understand why people are getting a bit cranky about this, but do any of you guys give out your visa number to buy goods? goods that could be ammo, or anything else gun related? if you do, whats the probs about a license number?
Grant


If someone tries to put some fraudulent transactions on your Visa card the bank will reverse it and launch an investigation, which is part of the rights you have when you use their service.

If you get robbed because someone from trade me sold your FAL details to a criminal what rights do you have?
  
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gamehunter
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #12 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 8:24pm
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there is an explanation trademe is a cover up site to thier real site which they wish no one to know about as it was a retard who started it all but lets expose trademe for what it really is right here right now(I think I posted this a while ago)  Grin Grin Grin

Ladies and gents I proudly present to you trademe's real site www.tardme.co.nz
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #13 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 9:17pm
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Yes it is interesting they have the license numbers already for verification?
I'm sure my bank would balk at giving out my credit card numbers.
Its all down to perspective.

Just how does it work?
Have the Police already supplied Trademe with numbers to get instant access.
They don't seem to have. "Ah hold on mate need to check the police first". No its instant.
There is something strange here? How does it work.

Quote:
Hi . Just regarding Trademe getting verification for firearms bidding.
How do you know if the bidders license number is correct?

Thanks


A simple question for trademe has just been sent.


  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #14 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:24pm
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As has been stated before the FAL number allocation is probably controlled by an algorithm, with a check digit of some sort, much like credit cards (see http://www.merriampark.com/anatomycc.htm).

If so, it is a simple matter to run the inputted number through the reverse of the algorithm and get a valid/invalid answer, hence it being instant, when they tell you a number is invalid.

Now, if you found out what the algorithm was you could create your own number(complete with satanic messages for all you Dan Brown fans Grin), that would pass the test and TM would be happy.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #15 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:31pm
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grunta wrote on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 6:14pm:
Hey all,

I can understand why people are getting a bit cranky about this, but do any of you guys give out your visa number to buy goods? goods that could be ammo, or anything else gun related? if you do, whats the probs about a license number? when you buy a gun through a shop, they take down your details.

Everyone to there own opinion and i'm not supporting trademe, but obviously they are allowed to do what they're doing, and if you dont like it, dont use them. Simple.

Grant


Exactly.  What are you going to do with a firearms licence number?

No one is worried about Trademe having their VISA details, but are all up in arms about the licence number.

I buy and sell guns and related items on Trademe all the time. If you don't want to enter your number - GOOD! More stuff for me to buy without you bidding and driving the price up.  Smiley

Varmint
  
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yawn
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #16 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:42pm
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I dont use myeveryday visa on line at all. I have a mastercard with a small limit for on line use.If I wont to spend above the limit Ill just load it up.
A smaller but anoying part of the problem is having to fish out your license and input just to ask a question or to buy anything in the reloading line.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #17 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:57pm
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Quote:
I dont use myeveryday visa on line at all. 


I do.

My bank caught an illegal transaction once - someone ran up $1200 on my card at Amazon UK. It happened in the early hours of the morning here in NZ - I was sound asleep.

I was woken by the bank, who rang me at 7 am, to tell me that they'd noticed the transactions, cancelled my card, a new one was in the mail, and that my total loss was ... zero. I had a new card within a couple of days.

I don't have a lot of issues about using my card online.

Incidentally, I suspect that the card had been hacked while I was overseas several months earlier - or the people involved just tried numbers until they found one that worked.
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #18 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 7:35am
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A bank just washes its hands of the debt. Its now the responsibility of the defrauded merchant for the $1200.
But you can rest easy. Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #19 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:45am
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I emailed the Council of licenced firarms owners (COLFO) to ask if they had a position on it and here is there reply

"We have raised this and yes they are able to do this just as a gun shop or reseller does. Given the recent TV exposure of the illegal sale of a 22 and publicity it is in shooters interest for them to take this stance. Most web sites also recommend or take this step. They do not have direct access to the firearms database but are able to verify by arrangement with Police.

Cheers
Gary Howat
COLFO Chairman"

Hmm... not sure Gary realises there is a difference between Trademe and a gunshop!

and here is Trademe's response to my questions:

"Thanks for contacting us.

The requirement for firearms buyers to disclose their firearms licence details before bidding on firearms (for which a license is required) is a Trade Me requirement rather than a legislative one.  It is designed to ensure that buyers are licensed. The Arms Act 1983 does require that sellers sight the buyer’s firearms license or,  when selling by mail order, sight an endorsement signed by a member of the Police stating that the member of Police has inspected the purchaser's firearms license and is satisfied that the purchaser is a fit and proper person to purchase that firearm or ammunition, before selling a firearm. 

The license information is held in accordance with our Privacy Policy, our Terms and Conditions and the Privacy Act.  Therefore we do not sell or rent your information, and it is only disclosed in the circumstances outlined in our Policy and provided for in the Privacy Act.

Also the New Zealand Police has not provided us with a list of licence numbers and names.  However if we have concerns regarding any licensing information provided or firearms transactions this can be passed on to the police.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Rachel P

Trade Me Support
http://www.trademe.co.nz


So Trademe doesnt have a list of licences and names to verify my licence number against, which is good news.

Cheers

Grant

  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #20 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:52am
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Still got to wonder how they're verifying every single license number every single time.
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #21 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:25am
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primer wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 7:35am:
A bank just washes its hands of the debt. Its now the responsibility of the defrauded merchant for the $1200.
But you can rest easy. Roll Eyes


And why or how could I do anything else?

I wasn't the perpetrator or the victim, despite some scumbag's best efforts. Also, I suspect that the action at the bank was so fast that Amazon UK (who must also surely have some sort of anti-theft algorithms in place) never even got as far as packing the order.
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #22 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:50am
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Jesus, it's so bloody simple!  None of what Trade Me require is out of line, and, if you don't like what they're doing, buy online somewhere else.
It's their site and they are free to run it their way, within the law.
So, do what I did.  Make up a number very similar to your own (my trade me number has only two digits changed and the same precursor letter) and supply them with that.
It's a similar sequence and the same number of digits, just slightly altered.
They're happy and I'm safe.
PS Get over it.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #23 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:18am
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You have alerted them to that.  Or maybe their search bot will get confused with altered. Wink

Wouldn't you like to know how safe you are. You don't really know until they explain the mechanism to cross check the numbers.

Maybe some cheap lax system that you could hack in two minutes.
I'm not getting inspired reading the reference system is that loose in your reply.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #24 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 5:21pm
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i already know how safe I am;  They've got someone elses details when I've viewed their firearms site- how safe is that?
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #25 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 6:22pm
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cleaky wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:52am:
Still got to wonder how they're verifying every single license number every single time.


With an algorithim/checksum.  It's almost like you blokes don't work in IT  Grin Grin

They may also have a black list of revoked license number (although I doubt it) but they won't have a list of valid license numbers.

If they did maintain a list then every time a license gets issues/revoked the police would have to update the trade me db.  There is no way in the world that they are this organised (anyone remember the incis police computer system?).

This is how ashfishman can transpose two digits and still pass the validation check.  They checksum generated remains the same (or hes accidentally using another valid number).

It also appears that they have done it by category i.e. everything in the ammo section requires a license.  I had to input my number when I brought a casting mold last week.

Also they are not going tell you what the algorithm is as that would make it easier to reverse engineer aka hack aka generate valid numbers.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #26 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 6:27pm
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Two more points:
Under the privacy act you are entitled to ask to review the information that any company holds on you and if it is incorrect ask for a correction.

If your worried ask trade me to give you a copy of all the personal information they hold on you.

The new web site www.gunriflereload.co.nz has the firearms lisence number as your user ID!  This looks much more dodgy to me.  As it's available for all to see then whats to stop someone noting it and entering it into a trade me auction when they do an illegal purchase.

I see shooters world has signed up as shooters world rather than a license number so not sure how they get around it.

I don't really have a problem with the web site holding it as it's set up for E B and C cat sales, I just question why they use it as your user name.  As the trade me person said if they don't tighten up on this then internet sales of rifles will disappear shortly.

The license numbers on the questions is a direct response to the close up fiasco.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #27 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 7:30pm
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MassiveAttack wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 6:27pm:
The new web site www.gunriflereload.co.nz has the firearms lisence number as your user ID!  This looks much more dodgy to me.  As it's available for all to see then whats to stop someone noting it and entering it into a trade me auction when they do an illegal purchase.
.


I have an account with them at the moment. I have emailed them asking to be able to change my user name for this very reason.
I look forward to their reply.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #28 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 7:48pm
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Again, we can discuss this subject until it does a natural death but it will not change a thing. As we discovered from the several other threads of a similar nature.
Trademe always try to hide behind the statement that they are in no way involved in the sale but merely a vehicle for buyer and seller to exchange goods or something to that effect. However, now with the requiring of a firearms license number to be declared before bidding or even asking a question they are involved directly in the trade. No matter what you say, they will deny this though.
We are on a lose/lose situation... They dont care what you say or think it is all about the money!
The addition of the license number requirement is just another case of NZ'ers being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. If EVERYONE WHO sold firearms/parts/ammo/reloading gear first verified licenses or even had them signed off by the cops, we wouldnt now be in the situation we now find ourselves in!
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #29 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:33pm
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MassiveAttack wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 6:27pm:
Two more points:
Under the privacy act you are entitled to ask to review the information that any company holds on you and if it is incorrect ask for a correction.

If your worried ask trade me to give you a copy of all the personal information they hold on you.

The new web site www.gunriflereload.co.nz has the firearms lisence number as your user ID!  This looks much more dodgy to me.  As it's available for all to see then whats to stop someone noting it and entering it into a trade me auction when they do an illegal purchase.

I see shooters world has signed up as shooters world rather than a license number so not sure how they get around it.

I don't really have a problem with the web site holding it as it's set up for E B and C cat sales, I just question why they use it as your user name.  As the trade me person said if they don't tighten up on this then internet sales of rifles will disappear shortly.

The license numbers on the questions is a direct response to the close up fiasco.


The Act only applies to government departments it does not apply to a private firm
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #30 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 8:46am
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Sorry TJ, the Privacy Act applies to anyone who holds private information on another person. I work with it every day.

I think you are referring to the Official Information Act which as you said only applies to Govt depts although that includes any Govt body such as a council etc too.

I think Trade Me will use an automated system to check the Licence number is valid the same as banks do re IRD numbers when you open an account. What happens with a bank is when they are loading your details in the 'puter it logs in to IRD and and the IRD computer simply confirms whether or not the number is valid, nothing more. Its a mathematical check only as others have pointed out.

I doubt much would be gained by getting a copy of what Trade Me holds on you, it will just be whatever you have supplied them and trading history and for us our license number.

I do share concerns as to who can access this stuff though.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #31 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:31am
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here is some further comments from Gary Howat at COLFO when I raised the issue of Trademe disclosing firearms owner detailes to the Police.

"Yes my details were some disclosed in this also. I believe the License being asked for was done in conjunction with the Police. Trademe will drop gun sales if it becomes to big an issue as it is a very minor part of their business. There are some gun owners who work in Trademe and they want to see it continue. Not ideal but I choose not to buy and sell online there now."




  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #32 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:39am
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This is also possibly why eBay made the decision to make firearms and some parts unable to be listed with them?
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #33 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:54am
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Banks use Paystation which has a layered security system for transactions.
Trademe has this protection for FA license numbers?
Is it cool idea to have easy access to things like passport numbers, license numbers, addresses, birth dates-points for identification. In this day and age?
Just guessing until trademe advises....
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #34 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:06am
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Trademe reply so far.

Quote:
Dear xxxxx,

Thanks for contacting us.

I have looked into this for you and can confirm that we have systems in place whereby we are able to verify the information. Due to the sensitivity of the information however I am unable to comment directly on exactly how we do this.

We hope you continue to enjoy the site.  Have a great day.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Mel

Trade Me Support
http://www.trademe.co.nz

**************************************************

Our conversation so far:

Hi . Just regarding Trademe getting verification for firearms bidding.
How do you know if the bidders license number is correct?

Thanks
xxxxx
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #35 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:22am
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Ask them specifically if they are getting the information from the police, cite the Privacy Act (which I understand requires them to tell you exactly what their source of information is), what their specific processes are for safeguarding your information, and mention the Privacy Commissioner if they don't give you a good answer.
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #36 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:32am
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No I think they are safe regarding that . I can ask about my information they have stored?? But they have no need to declare anything about their security arrangements.

http://www.privacy.org.nz/assets/Files/82227719.pdf

Read rule 5 and 6.

I could tell them to delete my info. Which would isolate them if they held seperate information details.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #37 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 12:16pm
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Can i throw another angle on this , all the chat is about buying, what is stopping the sale of firearms from an unlicenced seller. (stolen firearms) If they can fluke a licence number. Does one asked for a licence validation from the seller. I have never traded on tm (ignoranse is bliss) and never will.. probably.
  
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primer
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #38 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 1:11pm
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Quote:
Dear xxxxx,

Thanks for contacting us.

We are legally required to hold onto information for a certain time-frame so unfortunately we cannot delete this number. I am sorry for the inconvenience.

You may like to read through our Privacy Policy which should answer your concerns. It is available here:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Help/Topic.aspx?help_id=145

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,


OK they hold everyones firearms license numbers in their own records.



  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #39 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:02pm
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Bugger, I just wanted to ask a question on a air rifle auction and got asked for a #... that's retarded, TM knows my age - and I dont need a license for a bloody air rifle!

Bastards.
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #40 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 3:17pm
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Kickstart wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:02pm:
Bugger, I just wanted to ask a question on a air rifle auction and got asked for a #... that's retarded, TM knows my age - and I dont need a license for a bloody air rifle!

Bastards.


Hey,

quick question - but how do they know your age?

cheers
Grunta  Smiley
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #41 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 3:25pm
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Kickstart wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:02pm:
Bugger, I just wanted to ask a question on a air rifle auction and got asked for a #... that's retarded, TM knows my age - and I dont need a license for a bloody air rifle!

Bastards.


Check the persons other listings for a non-firearm related auction and ask there?
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #42 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 6:45pm
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They let us save our passwords in order to log in why can't they do the same thing with the firearms numbers? Saves us putting it in each time.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #43 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 7:09pm
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Seems like a good idea there Tim.
  
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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #44 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 7:43pm
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I thought I had put my age in when I registered...  Not that I've ever shown them any proof of existance...
  

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Re: Trademe and firearm licence numbers
Reply #45 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 11:25pm
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grunta wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 3:17pm:
Kickstart wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:02pm:
Bugger, I just wanted to ask a question on a air rifle auction and got asked for a #... that's retarded, TM knows my age - and I dont need a license for a bloody air rifle!

Bastards.


Hey,

quick question - but how do they know your age?

cheers
Grunta  Smiley


Well they know you're older than 18  Wink
  
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