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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Geoff Thomas Driven shoot (Read 40778 times)
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Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:32pm
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How bad was that?  About 7 minutes of shooting, 10 seconds of dog work.... 12 minutes of drinking piss and eating food and 12 mintues of shooting clays....  Undecided
  

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kawhia
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #1 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:40pm
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and i wore my flash hat too Grin they didn't stay long due to the 3 bird limit, hopefully the laws change as he was keen to come back next year, and hopefully he does a bit of walked up with some dogs.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #2 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:48pm
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disgusting what he did how can they breed birds just to be let go at hunters, in my books its not sport. sport hunting is another term used for killing an animal to feed ones self or family.
but when they host drives like they did with fox hunting is not sport but a killing fest for the snobs and lazy arses sorry but thats how i feel.. if i wanted some one to biff a bird at me and shoot it i would buy a chicken from pac n save and get my mate to biff it at me and shoot it that way.. in essence thats what happens.. they breed them and then let them go at hunters sad man thats  so sad and they call it sport.. i laugh at that term... game bird hunting is useing dogs to flush your quarry out then move on to the next one and so on and so on thats how i see it thats my 2 cents worth ok Smiley.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #3 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:49pm
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Hat off to Guy and co., looks like they've done some good things there. Even better, I've known some of the shooters for years and its not like they are the rich pricks that some people would have us all believe.

Hairy, Lab trials there tomorrow, why don't you come up for a look at the dogs?
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #4 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:52pm
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if they want real hunting of cocks then they should all use dogs in my books.
  

Eh bro!! does this white man taste funny to you???&&naa bro.... must be imported meat.. stick to eating antelopes they taste better.........
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #5 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:54pm
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pickled sausage, didn't you have your name down to go on one of alans fallow hunts Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #6 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:57pm
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sure did but at least they was not pushed down to me Smiley i have to walk crouch wiggle sneek peek and shoot em Smiley big difference than just standing there as they fly over ya head thoe.
  

Eh bro!! does this white man taste funny to you???&&naa bro.... must be imported meat.. stick to eating antelopes they taste better.........
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kawhia
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #7 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 6:10pm
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actually it's alot easier to shoot a pheasant over a pointing dog than 90% of the ones put over the guns, they are not sitting ducks trust me.
think of a pheasant preserve the same way as that property you where going to pay to shoot a deer with alan, you wouldn't pay good money to see f**k all deer would you or too work as hard as you would by hunting on the public reserve, all birds shot were picked up and eaten and it was hardly a turkey shoot as the shooting wasn't exactly A grade Grin
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #8 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 6:20pm
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Hunting should never be easy or you would pack it in and do other things.
i still would pay 400 bucks just to get out on some land just to get the chance to get a fellow deer even if it took me a week. i like to work for my $$ and i like to work harder for my meat. i did phesant hunting and it was a lot more fun over dog's is all. Smiley
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #9 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 6:31pm
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I agree with you pickled_sausage, as far as im concerned thats wasn't hunting nothing beats getting amongst it and using your dog to the best of its ability, they could have had kids picking those birds up it was that easy.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #10 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 6:54pm
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really Grin you got all that out of 7 mins watching.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #11 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 7:00pm
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kawhia, which one were you?

there marksmanship didnt seem anything to right home about.. and there idea of "sporting clays" was a joke
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #12 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 7:48pm
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Geoff never did ask Guy Ralph why he wasn't allowed to shoot more than 3 birds or operate as a preserve. was a blatant PR programme like all Geoffs seem to be lately, you let me and my mates in and we will give you heaps of advertising. His programmes have turned to crap in a big way
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #13 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 8:09pm
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THATS all it is now advertising program very little fishing and more on hunting and add's....
  

Eh bro!! does this white man taste funny to you???&&naa bro.... must be imported meat.. stick to eating antelopes they taste better.........
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #14 - Aug 16th, 2008 at 8:15pm
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i agree but the itm fishing show is a good watch
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #15 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 3:53am
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Undecided my lip is firmly raised in 1 corner Undecided Wink Grin
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #16 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:39am
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Is that because it was 4am in the morning mike?  THis was ging to be a thread on what a shit show it was on drinking piss and shooting claybirds NOT on whether game preserves are moral or ethical.  Just got me that they could have done 30 minutes easy on some shooting, some beating and some picking up... a bit of video of dogs working.  INstead they videod themselves eating lunch and shooting claybirds.   Roll Eyes Undecided  That was my point. 

Snuffit, I have got a few things on today... I wouldn't mind watching a few trials one day but ot be honest if I had a choice between watching someone else dog work and hunting mine, I would go hunting.  But I am not going hunting either.... Embarrassed
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #17 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:54am
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Didnt see it but i can imagine how dire it would have been.

I must really go to one of the NZ game reserves one of these days , it would be really interesting to see differences if any to hows it done both from the keepering side and shooting side.


As for the whole is driven shooting hunting / ethical / etc , etc thats been done to death on this forum.

However i have to say that having been to many such shoots over the years I love it. Just like I love a good walked up shoot or a day in the hills.  Its all variety and cant say i agree to the general its all an easy shot and slaughter mentality.

And if you have done little or no driven shooting then opinions of such things are based on little or no knowledge Roll Eyes

  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #18 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:32am
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whats to know??? you stand still and they drive the birds towards you and then shoot them out of the sky..
wonder if they will allow that for ducks and Canadian geese and deer.... i dont call it hunting but if thats what ya into i guess...
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #19 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:45am
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:32am:
whats to know??? you stand still and they drive the birds towards you and then shoot them out of the sky..
wonder if they will allow that for ducks and Canadian geese and deer.... i dont call it hunting but if thats what ya into i guess...


As a Councillor for F/G it would be over my dead body before waterfowl able able to be shot on gamepreserves. Waterfowl belong to all and will stay that way.
  

The kill is not the bottom line reason for the hunt, but it cannot be removed from the equation
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #20 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:12am
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how come phesants are done that way on farms and quackers are exempt?
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #21 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:23am
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hairy wrote on Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:32pm:
How bad was that?  About 7 minutes of shooting, 10 seconds of dog work.... 12 minutes of drinking piss and eating food and 12 mintues of shooting clays....  Undecided  


Doesn't even remotely compare with shooting with a good dog. Not suprized that "Tosser Thomas" trying to promote that sort of "rich boys shooting"   Idiot!! Smiley
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #22 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 11:50am
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:45am:
pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:32am:
whats to know??? you stand still and they drive the birds towards you and then shoot them out of the sky..
wonder if they will allow that for ducks and Canadian geese and deer.... i dont call it hunting but if thats what ya into i guess...


As a Councillor for F/G it would be over my dead body before waterfowl able able to be shot on gamepreserves. Waterfowl belong to all and will stay that way.



dukshutr, what would be the difference if a game preserve breed say 2000 of their own mallards each year to provide shooting for their clients? In all essence, they are far more migratory than pheasants and therefore a large percentage of those released birds would actually fly off and join the wild population. I guess if shooting records were kept by the estates as to the number of birds harvested then they could show/prove whether their breeding/harvest ratio was correct. Obviously this isn't all the answers, but I would suggest not too far from the pheasant situation.

Oh and just to stay on topic...Geoff's show's are pretty average, mostly about him and his mates having a piss up weekend where they happen to have bought a gun or rod along.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #23 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 12:03pm
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My 5 cents 10cents worth (no such thing as 5 cents anymore Angry) I saw it and didnt think much of this "staged" programe either.... but i must confess to being biased against geoff thomas. So why do i watch it Undecided, maybe in the hope his show will improve, and to see some genuine hunters and fishermen that do appear on it from time to time. If you took that idiot giggleing bugger out of it, and all his blow hard antics, and directed more of the footage to the people actually doing the REAL fishing and hunting maybe it would improve.
I think i owe this thread another 40 cents by now Grin.
I would like to get off topic about Game preserves but thats better in another thread.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #24 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 12:35pm
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Dont know f**k all about pheasant shooting but surely that clay shooting would be a crapload of fun!!!
300 clays in 20 minutes what a blast!
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #25 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 3:40pm
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Quote:
whats to know??? you stand still and they drive the birds towards you and then shoot them out of the sky..


As opposed to most duck shooters who stand in a maimai and shoot the ducks out of the sky as they come in to land on the maize they've been feeding 'em ...... Tongue Tongue
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #26 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 3:50pm
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i must admitt claybirding is top notch. caint say much for smacking quacks..
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #27 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 3:57pm
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The Rotorua H&F shoot in the Autumn has a 250 bird flurry with the targets coming at you,its a hoot... Cheesy
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #28 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 4:31pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:48pm:
disgusting what he did how can they breed birds just to be let go at hunters, in my books its not sport. sport hunting is another term used for killing an animal to feed ones self or family.

Yeah its shocking. So in the same spirit, how the hell can they let farmers breed sheep and cattle just for the purpose of herding them into trucks to be killed in an assembly line so lazy pricks can drive to the supermarket and pick up a nicely cut shrink wrapped piece of steak. Absolutely disgusting.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #29 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 4:33pm
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But we had an awesome day today. My little dog got a good workout beating pheasants and even caught a pricked bird from the first shoot. He was like a pig in shit!

You can see how thousands of birds that guy has raised, at great cost to himself, cross onto the public land down there boosting wild pheasant numbers for hunters on public land.

Hey was really good to meet the rest of you guys there today as well. Definitely keen for the next one.

Cheers to Guy and Will. You guys are doing great things and I really appreciate the opportunity to work my dog on your birds. Big Kudos
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #30 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 4:42pm
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INOV8A wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 11:50am:
DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:45am:
pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:32am:
whats to know??? you stand still and they drive the birds towards you and then shoot them out of the sky..
wonder if they will allow that for ducks and Canadian geese and deer.... i dont call it hunting but if thats what ya into i guess...


As a Councillor for F/G it would be over my dead body before waterfowl able able to be shot on gamepreserves. Waterfowl belong to all and will stay that way.



dukshutr, what would be the difference if a game preserve breed say 2000 of their own mallards each year to provide shooting for their clients? In all essence, they are far more migratory than pheasants and therefore a large percentage of those released birds would actually fly off and join the wild population. I guess if shooting records were kept by the estates as to the number of birds harvested then they could show/prove whether their breeding/harvest ratio was correct. Obviously this isn't all the answers, but I would suggest not too far from the pheasant situation.

Oh and just to stay on topic...Geoff's show's are pretty average, mostly about him and his mates having a piss up weekend where they happen to have bought a gun or rod along.



Ducks are very social birds and would have to be fed heavily to keep them in the area,very soon all other ducks in region would be there for a free feed so how would you tell which ones were yours
Ducks belong to the Crown as do Pheasants, even Preserve bred as once they are released from the pens they become wild birds.
A preserve could theoretically start with a pair of mallards and soon have every bird in the area there for "Private paid Shooting"
  

The kill is not the bottom line reason for the hunt, but it cannot be removed from the equation
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #31 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 4:47pm
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i knew that was gonna come up azza was waiting for it Smiley  Grin big difference is, that farm animals are for everyone not a few dozen hunters. mabey geoff should stand back for a change and get more of fishing and hunting without him in it for once... its going down hill that program
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #32 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 4:52pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 4:47pm:
i knew that was gonna come up azza was waiting for it Smiley  Grin big difference is, that farm animals are for everyone not a few dozen hunters. 

Actually I only found this thread just before I posted. Its a fact tho. Farm animals are not for everyone. They are for everyone who is prepared to pay for it. However more people are prepared to pay for them so doesn't cost as much. I cant think of many places where I can go and shoot wild cattle beast or sheep (I know there are some).

If someone is prepared to take the time and money to raise game why shouldn't they be able to recoup their costs and have a job they LOVE?

In fact of the hundreds of birds that flew over today only around 30 were downed. They have a good sporting chance.
The beating dogs had a good workout doing what they were bred for.
The retrievers had a good workout doing what they were bred for.

An all around day I reckon! Wink
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #33 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 5:13pm
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now have a think about your last post pickled Huh it sounds confusing Grin

thanks for pointing out the fact that once a pheasant is released out of a pen it becomes property of the crown duckshtr, i'm sure the expected loss of 4000+ birds will help the hunting in a twenty km radius for years to come Wink can you imagine the increase in the wild birds if we have a good breeding season this summer Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #34 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 5:29pm
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sure  cattle  that are fed cattle and god knows what else are not for all and that they are there to the ppl that are paying for it. my point is. how can some one stand there and let an animal be hearded towards them and be shot. we can debate this till the cows coem home. i just see no point in it is all..
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #35 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 6:01pm
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Kawhia wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 5:13pm:
thanks for pointing out the fact that once a pheasant is released out of a pen it becomes property of the crown duckshtr, i'm sure the expected loss of 4000+ birds will help the hunting in a twenty km radius for years to come Wink can you imagine the increase in the wild birds if we have a good breeding season this summer Roll Eyes

Not entirely sure of the value of these biirds to the general public in all situations. Sure if the preserve is close to public land there may be a benefit. But if the preserve is in the middle of private farm land or leased land then  these birds are only available to the ones allowed on so no more benefit to any more people than before the release, so the status quo may as well remain and just have wild bred birds. Also if the preserve has had to do a lot of habitat restoration it probably means that the surounding land is not that flash for birds to live in which would mean they won't stray far from the cover or the feed the preserve doles out to them. .
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #36 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 6:14pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 5:29pm:
sure  cattle  that are fed cattle and god knows what else are not for all and that they are there to the ppl that are paying for it. my point is. how can some one stand there and let an animal be hearded towards them and be shot. we can debate this till the cows coem home. i just see no point in it is all..



At the end of the day the guys on the guns get birds coming "very f*cking fast" in "very small windows" with "very little reaction time" to shoot. I witnessed this today. As I was saying earlier a very small percentage of birds were downed.
So maybe the guns are not working a dog but someone is working a dog to get these birds flying over...no different to a duck shooter sitting in a maimai...oh actually yeah it is...A dog is working the birds over... not some $70 "caller" bought in a hunting shop.

But hey at the end of the day if you don't like it then you don't have to participate.
Some of us want to participate but some small minds are stopping this happening in a place relatively close to my home.

While I love walk up shooting the opportunities that places like this give to me in terms of training and developing my dog are priceless.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #37 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 6:29pm
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hairy wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:39am:
THis was ging to be a thread on what a shit show it was on drinking piss and shooting claybirds NOT on whether game preserves are moral or ethical.  Just got me that they could have done 30 minutes easy on some shooting, some beating and some picking up... a bit of video of dogs working.  INstead they videod themselves eating lunch and shooting claybirds.   Roll Eyes Undecided  That was my point.  


Undecided Undecided Undecided   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  That was my point...
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #38 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 6:41pm
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hairy wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 6:29pm:
hairy wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:39am:
THis was ging to be a thread on what a shit show it was on drinking piss and shooting claybirds NOT on whether game preserves are moral or ethical.  Just got me that they could have done 30 minutes easy on some shooting, some beating and some picking up... a bit of video of dogs working.  INstead they videod themselves eating lunch and shooting claybirds.   Roll Eyes Undecided  That was my point. 


Undecided Undecided Undecided   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  That was my point...

sorry  Embarrassed
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #39 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 6:42pm
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Nice to meet you today Azza, and very nice catch by your dog, that co*k was very much alive! I shot the first drive and here's my couple of cents worth... this season I've done quite a bit of walk up on pheasant, and today's birds were a damn sight harder than any of the walk up birds I got this season. I had a go at beating also, and it was lots of fun. The retrievers got a great work out and the owners were very grateful for the opportunity to have a live game trial. Some of thye dogs were very good and some not so good, but great seeing them all ibn action (when I should have been looking for flyers).

And the best part - folks from all walks of life got together to have a yarn and share goodwill. I'll post up some dog pix soon.

Oh and yes I'm sure Geoff's show could have had a bit more on beating etc, I'd enccourage anyone to give it a go, it's fun!~
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #40 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 6:48pm
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Kawhia wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 5:13pm:
thanks for pointing out the fact that once a pheasant is released out of a pen it becomes property of the crown duckshtr, i'm sure the expected loss of 4000+ birds will help the hunting in a twenty km radius for years to come Wink can you imagine the increase in the wild birds if we have a good breeding season this summer Roll Eyes

Not entirely sure of the value of these biirds to the general public in all situations. Sure if the preserve is close to public land there may be a benefit. But if the preserve is in the middle of private farm land or leased land then  these birds are only available to the ones allowed on so no more benefit to any more people than before the release, so the status quo may as well remain and just have wild bred birds. Also if the preserve has had to do a lot of habitat restoration it probably means that the surounding land is not that flash for birds to live in which would mean they won't stray far from the cover or the feed the preserve doles out to them. .

the preserve is in fact by a large chunck of public land, a shit load of clued up lisence holders have already benefitted from the fence jumpers, pheasants travel around alot, in time they would spread to area's that are devoid of upland birds. not sure where you hunt but up here you have to travel alot of km's to get into wild birds and trying to find them on all that public land is a joke, even with good dogs.
no habitat restoration has taken place apart from a few crops and a pest control programme, the birds will not be feed after the season ends so will end up wandering off the place, they do belong to the crown remmber even if they stay on the preserve,even allowing for the local hawks and cats to get a good few it still leaves a shit load more birds that will help out the wild population.

  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #41 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:20pm
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Kawhia wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 6:48pm:
Quote:
Kawhia wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 5:13pm:
thanks for pointing out the fact that once a pheasant is released out of a pen it becomes property of the crown duckshtr, i'm sure the expected loss of 4000+ birds will help the hunting in a twenty km radius for years to come Wink can you imagine the increase in the wild birds if we have a good breeding season this summer Roll Eyes

Not entirely sure of the value of these biirds to the general public in all situations. Sure if the preserve is close to public land there may be a benefit. But if the preserve is in the middle of private farm land or leased land then  these birds are only available to the ones allowed on so no more benefit to any more people than before the release, so the status quo may as well remain and just have wild bred birds. Also if the preserve has had to do a lot of habitat restoration it probably means that the surounding land is not that flash for birds to live in which would mean they won't stray far from the cover or the feed the preserve doles out to them. .

the preserve is in fact by a large chunck of public land, a shit load of clued up lisence holders have already benefitted from the fence jumpers, pheasants travel around alot, in time they would spread to area's that are devoid of upland birds. not sure where you hunt but up here you have to travel alot of km's to get into wild birds and trying to find them on all that public land is a joke, even with good dogs.
no habitat restoration has taken place apart from a few crops and a pest control programme, the birds will not be feed after the season ends so will end up wandering off the place, they do belong to the crown remmber even if they stay on the preserve,even allowing for the local hawks and cats to get a good few it still leaves a shit load more birds that will help out the wild population.


Yours may well be in an area where it will benefit others but not all f them are or will be.  I'm not sure whether to be for against reserves but the argument about birds benefiting wild populations and other shooters is one that is aired a lot and it should be pointed out that this is only true in some cases and of only limited value. And should not be the defining reason for preserves. Any idea of the ratio of hens to cocks released.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #42 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:25pm
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if thoes birds was reared from eggs, then how will they cope being hand fed all there lives, and having to fend for them selfs in the wild? how many surrive ?
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #43 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:57pm
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it is true in all cases......don't forget the pheasant is an introduced game bird, to keep the population up in the days before fish and game in it's current form was running the show, the wild population was topped up by.....................liberation of pen raised birds Huh
these birds were not dumped in places that would have meant they would be blown away that shooting season but were put in places that would encourage a natural spread of birds, this would mean it could take time for them to spread out to places that shooters could legally hunt them on public land but plenty of guys have permission to hunt private land that will get benefits of the fence jumpers first.
to say that it is of limited value because of that is short sighted as alot of land owners don't allow shooters to hunt pheasants anyway, which is fine by me as they just keep breeding and spreading to the next farm Grin
like it or not t3 preserves are doing what fish and game are not, putting birds back.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #44 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 8:02pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:25pm:
if thoes birds was reared from eggs, then how will they cope being hand fed all there lives, and having to fend for them selfs in the wild? how many surrive ?

well the game keeper, after he tucks them up in bed at nite reads them bed time stories and tells them all about the big wide world so they can cope when they leave home for good.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #45 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 8:09pm
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Kawhia wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:57pm:
it is true in all cases......don't forget the pheasant is an introduced game bird, to keep the population up in the days before fish and game in it's current form was running the show, the wild population was topped up by.....................liberation of pen raised birds Huh
these birds were not dumped in places that would have meant they would be blown away that shooting season but were put in places that would encourage a natural spread of birds, this would mean it could take time for them to spread out to places that shooters could legally hunt them on public land but plenty of guys have permission to hunt private land that will get benefits of the fence jumpers first.
to say that it is of limited value because of that is short sighted as alot of land owners don't allow shooters to hunt pheasants anyway, which is fine by me as they just keep breeding and spreading to the next farm Grin
like it or not t3 preserves are doing what fish and game are not, putting birds back.


Only if you live in the past and ignore the fact that was a long time ago and most if not all populations of game birds and fish are self sustaining (which is why F&G have stopped releases and liberations in most places)albeit not always in numbers to satisfy the tally shooter.
As you say a lot of landowners don't allow people to shoot on their land which reinforces my point that escapees from preserves are of limted value to most shooters. Once again read what I have written nowhere have I said I am against preserves but neither am I for them.......yet so convince me with arguments that benefit the majority of shooters not just the few who have access next to a preserve or who actually shoot on one. And don't ignore the fact that birds will only spread to other areas if that area is suitable for them to live Wink. And don't forget if this much awaited population explosion does occur it is only going to last as long as the feed and then the birds will starve and what a bugger F&G may just be proven right that the population was about right for healthy birds and even enough for some to be shot.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #46 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 8:55pm
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if they are so self sustaining why did eastern have a reduced bag on ducks this year?
if they sustain them selves why do we even bother with limits?
if fish levels are self sustaining why can't we catch fish like we used too?
f&g stopped releasing not long after they took over, yet numbers have dropped in far more places than they have increased, apart from pukes and swan.
the true picture in regards to the wild pheasant is that they are in small limited numbers in the waikato, quail are extinct in area's once alive with them, blamimg the farming sector for loss of habitant or chemical use still leaves the question why are they not in the same numbers they used to be, back when the population was 'topped up'. sprays and clearing land was still happening way before f&g came about and there was a shitload more hunters too.
ducks that live on ponds on private property quite happily breed and raise more ducks, are they of limited value to most shooters too?  both ducks and pheasants happily get about the country by flying.
do those same ducks living on private land that you can't shoot on because of lack of permission have no value at all too most shooters just because a father and son have shot the place for years?
you are starting to sound like communist don the duckshtr Grin Grin
there is no proof the wild population is at a stable level. thats f&g bullshit, every time you shoot a wild bird you could be shooting the last bird in the area for many years.
the birds will not starve they will simply move further out from the liberation point, contary to what mr duckshtr will have you believe they are not handfeed chickens.
a/w where pretty quick to try and close the place down up at lakelands but they where double quick to offer to take the birds away for public release........why would they do that if the bird population was so stable Smiley
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #47 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:10pm
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Well thats alright then. Smiley as long as they tucked in nice and happy Smiley
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #48 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:58pm
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Kawhia wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 8:55pm:
if they are so self sustaining why did eastern have a reduced bag on ducks this year?
if they sustain them selves why do we even bother with limits?
if fish levels are self sustaining why can't we catch fish like we used too?
f&g stopped releasing not long after they took over, yet numbers have dropped in far more places than they have increased, apart from pukes and swan.
the true picture in regards to the wild pheasant is that they are in small limited numbers in the waikato, quail are extinct in area's once alive with them, blamimg the farming sector for loss of habitant or chemical use still leaves the question why are they not in the same numbers they used to be, back when the population was 'topped up'. sprays and clearing land was still happening way before f&g came about and there was a shitload more hunters too.
ducks that live on ponds on private property quite happily breed and raise more ducks, are they of limited value to most shooters too?  both ducks and pheasants happily get about the country by flying.
do those same ducks living on private land that you can't shoot on because of lack of permission have no value at all too most shooters just because a father and son have shot the place for years?
you are starting to sound like communist don the duckshtr Grin Grin
there is no proof the wild population is at a stable level. thats f&g bullshit, every time you shoot a wild bird you could be shooting the last bird in the area for many years.
the birds will not starve they will simply move further out from the liberation point, contary to what mr duckshtr will have you believe they are not handfeed chickens.
a/w where pretty quick to try and close the place down up at lakelands but they where double quick to offer to take the birds away for public release........why would they do that if the bird population was so stable Smiley

Highs and lows of a fluctuating population caused by a variey of natural reasons a dry spring for example will reult in higher mortality of ducklings.Why have limits? To give the tally shooter something to strive for Wink Quite sure you know the answer to that but are just manipulating things to suit your own means so won't go into it more.
did it not occur to you that when releases are stopped the poulation in most cases will fall to levels that the habitat can support because the numbers aren't being artificially boosted by large numbers that are in all probability too much for the habitat. But then once again I am repeating myself because you choose to ignore some simple fact to suit your own means. About quail numbers falling you answered your own question when you said the numbers declined when they stopped "topping them up".
It is only the pond that has no value for other shooters during the season the ducks are,only very large ponds can feed a large number of ducks and the only for a limited time which means they will travel to places where other shooters will get a chance at them. That is true even with ponds that are fed.
They will only move further from a preserve that doesn't feed them (and to try and push a point home only survive and breed if the new home is suitable)which some do so once again not all preserves will give equal oppurtunities to a lot of shooters.
you have proof thatwild bird populations aren't stable, be interesting to see some links to that!!!
Your constant personal attacks on dukshutr are uncalled for and just show how biased you are and serve no useful purpose.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #49 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm
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Ty Tk but am getting used to it. A/WF+G have never tried to close that place down, get your facts right Kawhia before making untrue statements and as to a preserve status I have stated many times why we are not permitting it
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #50 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:30pm
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Dukshutr, if paid duck shooting is illegal on these preserves how come they advertise duck shooting on their website. Or are they being generous and giving the clients a freebie on the licence holders.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #51 - Aug 17th, 2008 at 11:59pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:25pm:
if thoes birds was reared from eggs, then how will they cope being hand fed all there lives, and having to fend for them selfs in the wild? how many surrive ?


Holly Mother of Jeysis - did any of you feckers ever go to school?  How can you even hope to hold a sensible debate when you can't even string a sentance together?  Not to mention a shocking lack of knowledge on Pheasants - you guys are so busy bitching and in-fighting, you won't even notice when the greenos come knock knock knocking on your door.  Thought it'd never happen in Oz?  You'll be next.....
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #52 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:18am
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
I have stated many times why we are not permitting it
Could you please post a link where I could find this explanation? Sorry I am new here and can't and am having trouble understanding the negativity here.


DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia

Not sure what this has to do with anything, except perhaps an attempt to sling mud at Mr Ralph? So he has a bad memory and needs to record meetings...Journo's do it all the time.

  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #53 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:26am
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Noe raptermun we uz all edumacated diffrantly hair.  Grin Grin Grin

When someone can adequately prove to me that having a preserve in AW area reduces opportunities for the greater hunting public, I may change my opinion. As was pointed out to me, I entered the preserve debate with a slightly 'anti' mind set. Having seen the effort put in and the people who are getting a truck load of enjoyment from the farm (can't really call it a preserve just yet, can we?) I've changed my point of view. It has benefitted over 300 individuals this year, not just shooters, but dog handlers, beaters, kids, wives, galleries at the trials AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS HAD ANY OPPORTUNITY SUPPRESSED. Except the undercover F&G ranger masquerading as a police officer.

And I'd quite like for the birds to be taken at the end of the season and released near my duck ponds. We used to have a population until... well let's not bring DOC into this debate.  Tongue

Mr. Hairy, sorry that the thread has gone skewiff!!!

  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #54 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:29am
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia


Perhaps a truly faithful representation of the meeting minutes is just what the angling and hunting public in AW needs. I would really hate to think that our elected body was discussing things that didn't find their way into the minutes.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #55 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:43am
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Snuffit wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:29am:
DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia


Perhaps a truly faithful representation of the meeting minutes is just what the angling and hunting public in AW needs. I would really hate to think that our elected body was discussing things that didn't find their way into the minutes.


Go to the meeting and you will be able to see for yourself what has been discussed.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #56 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 8:00am
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I had work commitments T3, or I certainly would have.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #57 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 8:30am
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Grin Grin  Geoff Thomas..... Grin  drinnking wine  Grin Grin  shooting clays  Grin Grin Grin jesus...
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #58 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 9:26am
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Did you see geoff swing down range at one bird and the guy on his port side down hill, i thought to shoot things flying at you not away from you. hmmm just had a thought what if i leased some land off land corp, breed 5000 quackers then charge 20 people  500 bucks each to shoot low flying quackers comming down hill... naa wont work quackers dont fly down hill in a straight line... Grin
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #59 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 9:29am
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia


Grin Grin Grin

Found to have a concealed taperecorder?  Grin Grin Grin He was recording a public meeting (as is his right) and made no secret of it after the meeting. You make it sound like he did something wrong dukshutr.

Sorry Hairy but I must also add to the thread hijacking. I shot for the first drive on Sunday as well, what a f**kload of fun that was! There's a real narrow window of opportunity as the birds come streaking over the top of the guns ... I missed, ummmmm, several (read, heaps!).  Grin Had a go at beating for the second drive as well, that was a heap of fun too, having Azza's dog chase down a bird from the first drive right in front of me and retrieve it back to me (Azza was down a pretty steep bank so got me to take it from Milo) was a blast too, Milo was pretty bloody pleased with himself!

Was great to meet a few characters from the forum and had a thoroughly enjoyable day, I've hunted walk up before but this was my first real opportunity to have a shot at a phezzie and I managed to bag my first roosters. All in all a fantastic day and I absolutely enjoyed all aspects of the day, thanks to Guy and Will and the Gun Dog Club ...

Anyone railing on about preserves without actually visiting one is doing themselves a major disservice. Go along and actually see for yourselves before commenting.

On the whole "do preserves help the wild population" issue, Guy and Will gather up about a thousand hens at the end of the season and donate them to places that release them. So yeah, that's got to help don't you think? (If I've got these figures and details wrong can someone who knows the exact amount please correct them, I'm pretty sure it's reasonably accurate though.)
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #60 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 9:37am
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oh  my god was GT drunk and shooting clays.....fn hell how can he shoot those box reared clays when he is full of red wine...... Shocked
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #61 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 9:45am
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Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  Alright I had better but in my 5c... Roll Eyes  I have been to a driven day as a beater and I didn't like it so haven't gone back.  Not my scene and it wasn't particulary good for my dog who is deaf and usually works wild birds.  She saw the birds falling from the shooting  line and that was that we was gone and retrived birds to the feet of some old couple and then ran off and got more. Some of them were not dead and she left them flapping around buy the shooters feet Grin Grin  People were shouting out "whose is this black dog?"... I was hiding in the scrub  Grin Grin  Funny now I look back on it.  

I am also a keen phesant hunter and I didn't like the feeling of superiority that the paying shooters felt towards the beaters (I know ither guys who have felt this at other shoots) when they weren't a hunters arsehole compared to a lot of the beaters and pickerupers.  I felt sorry for the phesants as well like soldiers going over the trench's.

BUT.... at the end of the day I don't have to go back and it doesn't affect me.  Far for it be for me to interfer with what others want to do with thier dogs and lifestyle.  Duckshtr, the preserves are not interfering with your right to go and hunt wild birds but AW are interfering with peoples right to go and beat/shoot/pick up.  
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #62 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:04am
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Hmmmm hiding in the hedge Grin

what dog ...that aint my dog its his twinnnn. Cool
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #63 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:47am
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hairy wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 9:45am:
Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  Alright I had better but in my 5c... Roll Eyes  I have been to a driven day as a beater and I didn't like it so haven't gone back.  Not my scene and it wasn't particulary good for my dog who is deaf and usually works wild birds.  She saw the birds falling from the shooting  line and that was that we was gone and retrived birds to the feet of some old couple and then ran off and got more. Some of them were not dead and she left them flapping around buy the shooters feet Grin Grin  People were shouting out "whose is this black dog?"... I was hiding in the scrub  Grin Grin  Funny now I look back on it.  

I am also a keen phesant hunter and I didn't like the feeling of superiority that the paying shooters felt towards the beaters (I know ither guys who have felt this at other shoots) when they weren't a hunters arsehole compared to a lot of the beaters and pickerupers.  I felt sorry for the phesants as well like soldiers going over the trench's.

BUT.... at the end of the day I don't have to go back and it doesn't affect me.  Far for it be for me to interfer with what others want to do with thier dogs and lifestyle.  Duckshtr, the preserves are not interfering with your right to go and hunt wild birds but AW are interfering with peoples right to go and beat/shoot/pick up.  


Good on yer Hairy - your opinions are respected, and amid this huge and sometimes confusing debate - you get to the nub of the matter - plenty of room for everyone.  Sure yourself and the likes of Duckshtr have hunted around the margins of a preserve at some time or other - and no doubt enjoyed a few birds courtisy of all those rich snobs!

You know you are always welcome for a look around my place, and maybe things have improved a little with a change of 'da management!  Meantime, heard a bit from Tim on the other side - he's doing well but having Fox problems!

Catch yer for a brew sometime....
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #64 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:51am
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Dukshutr, if paid duck shooting is illegal on these preserves how come they advertise duck shooting on their website. Or are they being generous and giving the clients a freebie on the licence holders.


Any  Licensed Preserve selling waterfowl hunting on the property would be closed down immediatly as is against their code of operations.
No waterfowl hunting is allowed on preserve land
  

The kill is not the bottom line reason for the hunt, but it cannot be removed from the equation
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #65 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:57am
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Azza wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:18am:
[quote author=dukshutr link=1218864753/45#49 date=1218968554]I have stated many times why we are not permitting it
Could you please post a link where I could find this explanation? Sorry I am new here and can't and am having trouble understanding the negativity here.


DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia

Not sure what this has to do with anything, except perhaps an attempt to sling mud at Mr Ralph? So he has a bad memory and needs to record meetings...Journo's do it all the time.

[/quote

The reason i said about the recorder is you are supposed to ask permission of chairman to record meeting, wasn't down and he had it concealed'"why'
After the previous meeting some information that was said "in Committee" was repeated in public and we are trying to track down who released the said information.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #66 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 11:02am
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Azza wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:18am:
[quote author=dukshutr link=1218864753/45#49 date=1218968554]I have stated many times why we are not permitting it
Could you please post a link where I could find this explanation? Sorry I am new here and can't and am having trouble understanding the negativity here.


DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia

Not sure what this has to do with anything, except perhaps an attempt to sling mud at Mr Ralph? So he has a bad memory and needs to record meetings...Journo's do it all the time.

Paid shooting is illegal under section 23 of the Wildlife act 1953 and until that law is changed by Government A/W will continue to inforce it
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #67 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 11:10am
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Dukshutr. What a great big load of horseshit. It's a public meeting, he could have walked in with a camera if he wanted to. It's only a problem if you clowns have got something to hide ... have you?
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #68 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:15pm
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Yorkshire wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:54am:
Didnt see it but i can imagine how dire it would have been.

I must really go to one of the NZ game reserves one of these days , it would be really interesting to see differences if any to hows it done both from the keepering side and shooting side.


As for the whole is driven shooting hunting / ethical / etc , etc thats been done to death on this forum.

However i have to say that having been to many such shoots over the years I love it. Just like I love a good walked up shoot or a day in the hills.  Its all variety and cant say i agree to the general its all an easy shot and slaughter mentality.

And if you have done little or no driven shooting then opinions of such things are based on little or no knowledge Roll Eyes



Eh up Yorkshire!  Was just going to say you are welcome for a look around our preserve any time you wish - but then I just looked at your profile map and noted your location - all the way down there!  However, if you find yourself on the middle of the other island, by all means make contact.

There is a small but professional bunch of 'keepers over here, most of us know each other.  We are all here for a variety of reasons - I came here to get away from Pheasants, but then realised I missed them Wink   We all find the opposition to shooting a bit bemusing, but we are confident when normal folk hear the facts or see the real thing, they will at least accept it as no threat to their chosen sport.

We run things along the lines of shoots at home, but there is and has to be a definite Kiwi twist.  Just for example, there is generally less formality, and the weather is often weirdly warm!  Sometimes the differences frustrate me - but I am aware of being in a different country.  When in Rome, 'an all that!

We do constantly strive to produce quality birds, and my personal opinion is that this is the grey area, as everyone has a different take on what constitutes 'quality'.  The bottom line is, us keepers get our thrills by sending over birds on the limits of range.  At home, that means we've done our job well.  Here, we have to provide a greater variety of birds, as most kiwi shooters simply cannot deal with high pheasants (don't intend as insult, just a fact).  Many of them are killers, and they get frustrated when they cannot get their pound of flesh - so we have to accept them shooting lower birds just so they have a chance of getting their bag.  Of course, every team is different.  On the days when they can deal with the high birds, it's a pleasure (and a compliment) to watch.  There are already some really keen budding game shooters out there who are mastering the art of high birds, and it is a privilege to be part of something which will continue to grow and evolve (So long as F & G see the light one day).

Click on my website link below - I set up some pages just for our beaters & pickers, with pics and lots more. http://www.thewanderyears.net/harakeke
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #69 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:20pm
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Have absoutley nothing to hide whatso ever, nor does the A/W FG, every thing is done by the book and is completley open. he could have asked us to record the meeting and that would have been no trouble at all but to hide things one has to wonder why.
The only reason we went in committee was due to the fact we were asked to and was to protect the privacy of persons either living or dead.
all relevant F and G business was completed before this happened so that visitors were not delayed and could leave, yet Mr Ralph sat outside (was the only one to do so)until we had finished and was after that the recorder was discovered.
don't know about you Cleaky but sort of makes me wonder why
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #70 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:32pm
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It doesn't make me wonder why in the slightest Don. What does make me wonder is why a publicly elected bunch of officials would get so up in arms about a dictaphone at a public meeting unless they had something to hide. If there's really nothing to hide why are you getting so defensive and silly about it?
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #71 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:39pm
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 4:42pm:
INOV8A wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 11:50am:
DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:45am:
pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 9:32am:
whats to know??? you stand still and they drive the birds towards you and then shoot them out of the sky..
wonder if they will allow that for ducks and Canadian geese and deer.... i dont call it hunting but if thats what ya into i guess...


As a Councillor for F/G it would be over my dead body before waterfowl able able to be shot on gamepreserves. Waterfowl belong to all and will stay that way.



dukshutr, what would be the difference if a game preserve breed say 2000 of their own mallards each year to provide shooting for their clients? In all essence, they are far more migratory than pheasants and therefore a large percentage of those released birds would actually fly off and join the wild population. I guess if shooting records were kept by the estates as to the number of birds harvested then they could show/prove whether their breeding/harvest ratio was correct. Obviously this isn't all the answers, but I would suggest not too far from the pheasant situation.

Oh and just to stay on topic...Geoff's show's are pretty average, mostly about him and his mates having a piss up weekend where they happen to have bought a gun or rod along.



Ducks are very social birds and would have to be fed heavily to keep them in the area,very soon all other ducks in region would be there for a free feed so how would you tell which ones were yours
Ducks belong to the Crown as do Pheasants, even Preserve bred as once they are released from the pens they become wild birds.
A preserve could theoretically start with a pair of mallards and soon have every bird in the area there for "Private paid Shooting"


Okay - I'm just trying to get my number of posts up, as I feel left out with you guys all being in the hundreds Wink  Not really - just trying to catch up with paperwork, but this is more entertaining!

While I think/hope you are talking hypothetically, people can get the wrong end of the stick (and we wouldn't want that to happen, would we duckshtr) – unless I am mistaken, no game preserve has or is attempting to rear/release/shoot wildfowl.  Is this the case?  I am a bit of a newbie to this debate, but certainly nobody I know or am connected with in the pro-preserve camp is talking about rearing ducks.  We are talking about the two game birds, Pheasants and Partridges.

Incidentally, you may or may not be aware that rearing & releasing ducks is quite standard stuff in the UK, any farm or estate with a bit of water does it to add variety to their Pheasant days.  I can tell you with 100% certainty Duckshtr, the scenario you imagine is quite wrong.  Reared ducks do not draw wild ones at all.  They do not stay with us for long, and generally we shoot them quite hard because after a few weeks they get wise and a) become too jumpy to manage or b) bugger off!  They always end up on a bit of water somewhere where they do  not get disturbed as much, and integrate into the wild population to breed without problem.

Over one million official shooters, five-month long season with NO bag limits.  Go figure!
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #72 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:47pm
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is the reason why they cant shoot more than 3 phesys because a/w fsh and game dont allow preserves in there area and this is the daily limit. eastern f&g allow preserves and 50 bird limit.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #73 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:50pm
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That's exactly the reason dodgy.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #74 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:54pm
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any bats fly over??????
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #75 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:58pm
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cleaky wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:57pm:
Not a bat to be seen ... haven't seen a bat in some time now. Might have to go find some.  Grin


have a good trip then Cool
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #76 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:06pm
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Raptorman
just as well not all of thoes shooters take ducks and phezzys and other birds each time they went out..or there wont be any birds left to shoot..
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #77 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:06pm
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Kawhia wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 5:13pm:
thanks for pointing out the fact that once a pheasant is released out of a pen it becomes property of the crown duckshtr, i'm sure the expected loss of 4000+ birds will help the hunting in a twenty km radius for years to come Wink can you imagine the increase in the wild birds if we have a good breeding season this summer Roll Eyes

Not entirely sure of the value of these biirds to the general public in all situations. Sure if the preserve is close to public land there may be a benefit. But if the preserve is in the middle of private farm land or leased land then  these birds are only available to the ones allowed on so no more benefit to any more people than before the release, so the status quo may as well remain and just have wild bred birds. Also if the preserve has had to do a lot of habitat restoration it probably means that the surounding land is not that flash for birds to live in which would mean they won't stray far from the cover or the feed the preserve doles out to them. .


Lol!  I WISH!

I'm nearing the end of my first Kiwi pheasant season, and we'll have shot less that 50% of those released.  And that's normal.  It'll be the same next year, and the year after that.  Some will stay, and if I keep killing those cats, ferrets and stoats, some will breed.  Right now, already with spring in the air, my birds are colouring up ready for fighting over the girls.  When they have sorted out their hareems, they'll spread out to find their own territory.   The Partridge are pairing, and will also spread out far and wide.

If any preserve has had to do habitat restoration, or chooses to do so,  surely that is something that is good for New Zealand as a whole, before it does become one rather large dairy unit?  Are you saying nobody should improve their land or do anything good on it, unless we can all be there to enjoy it?  I don't have much of a garden (something of an understatement) – can I come sit in yours?  (I'll  bring a slab)!

Pheasants, I am only too aware, love to wander.  They really do – and don't just think next door, try twenty, thirty, or much more kilometres.  They have bugger all else to do, and plenty of time to do it.  Scratch around in the bush or roadsides, there is endless bugs and food opportunities for them even now at the height of winter.  Again, I know, because I watch my birds!  I have many birds around  my boundaries (apart from the ones that succumb to kiwi style drive-by shootings, hmm, a bit weird) that have found a patch they like and been there all year, without eating a scrap of my food.  These things survive the wilds of Siberia and northern China don't forget -  they know how to make a living.

You see, the only reason we have to improve and supply extra habitat, and feed, is because to make this type of shooting work we have to keep decent numbers on the place.  That means catering for all their needs, in the vague hope that most of them will choose to stay.  The don't 'jump the fence', as I've seen written on here – there is no fence, they are free to leave anytime they choose.  Plenty do, in small numbers here, there and everywhere – and it is those, ladies and gentlemen, that are spreading out and stocking your lovely country.  Look around you ANYWHERE you drive in NZ, there is oodles of habitat and rough cover that will support all those pesky wandering pheasants.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #78 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:19pm
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once your released birds jump the fence so to speak ,they are fair game to uncontrolled preds.
most if not all of them will die.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #79 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:25pm
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Aaaaah. But some will survive Oh Lostone. And therein lies the benefit for all concerned. Are you one of these so called "uncontrolled preds"?
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #80 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:27pm
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whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:19pm:
most if not all of them will die.


I'm willing to bet they will ALL die.

Eventually.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #81 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:28pm
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whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:19pm:
once your released birds jump the fence so to speak ,they are fair game to uncontrolled preds.
most if not all of them will die.


Beg to differ - see above 'these things survive the wilds of Siberia'.  They will survive to breed just as well as their truly wild cousins - having all been bred from the same stock anyways, and only a few generatoins removed.  There is always natural wastage, disease, accident and predation - as with any species in any situation.

My control of predators, as hard as I try, can only scratch the surface - again, all part of my efforts to maximise my harvest.  The little buggers still have to use their own brains to live out there.

Don't get me started on predators, please!!!!!   Cry
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #82 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:29pm
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whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:19pm:
most if not all of them will die.


I'm willing to bet they will ALL die.

Eventually.


LOL!  True - I see your point now!!!   Tongue
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #83 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:57pm
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whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:19pm:
most if not all of them will die.


I'm willing to bet they will ALL die.

Eventually.


thankyou for that pearl of wisdom Grin
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #84 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:59pm
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Raptorman wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:28pm:
whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:19pm:
once your released birds jump the fence so to speak ,they are fair game to uncontrolled preds.
most if not all of them will die.


Beg to differ - see above 'these things survive the wilds of Siberia'.  They will survive to breed just as well as their truly wild cousins - having all been bred from the same stock anyways, and only a few generatoins removed.  There is always natural wastage, disease, accident and predation - as with any species in any situation.

My control of predators, as hard as I try, can only scratch the surface - again, all part of my efforts to maximise my harvest.  The little buggers still have to use their own brains to live out there.

Don't get me started on predators, please!!!!!   Cry


we have a well documented history of released birds in this country,it might pay to investigate it.

I am a predator my eyes are on the front side of my head ...and a legend to boot.

  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #85 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 2:19pm
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If the numbers are that high succumbing to predators you would wonder why Fish and Game would release any back in the day... Undecided Undecided  I think some would wise up and survive, they are smart birds!
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #86 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 2:22pm
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released birds crouch and freeze out in the wild. easy catch for a cat
this is why they stopped releaseing them.
try hunting released birds over pointing dogs yuoll see what I mean.

a hard flushing dog would catch a few as well I bet.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #87 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 2:35pm
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whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:59pm:
Raptorman wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:28pm:
whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:19pm:
once your released birds jump the fence so to speak ,they are fair game to uncontrolled preds.
most if not all of them will die.


Beg to differ - see above 'these things survive the wilds of Siberia'.  They will survive to breed just as well as their truly wild cousins - having all been bred from the same stock anyways, and only a few generatoins removed.  There is always natural wastage, disease, accident and predation - as with any species in any situation.

My control of predators, as hard as I try, can only scratch the surface - again, all part of my efforts to maximise my harvest.  The little buggers still have to use their own brains to live out there.

Don't get me started on predators, please!!!!!   Cry


we have a well documented history of released birds in this country,it might pay to investigate it.

I am a predator my eyes are on the front side of my head ...and a legend to boot.



In your own mind Lostone Smiley
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #88 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 4:07pm
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Oh well back to the point, Geoffs programmes are becoming crap Grin Grin Grin
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #89 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 4:23pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 16th, 2008 at 5:52pm:
if they want real hunting of cocks then they should all use dogs in my books.


The "sport" in driven hunting is the difficulty of the shots which are far tougher than anythng I have ever experienced in walked up rough shooting over dogs. It is most certainly sport, but it isn't hunting, on that you are correct, but then no one calls it hunting.

There is plenty of dog work going on, usually superior dog work to what you'll see when hunters just hunt over dogs.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #90 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 4:37pm
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:57am:
The reason i said about the recorder is you are supposed to ask permission of chairman to record meeting, wasn't down and he had it concealed'"why'
After the previous meeting some information that was said "in Committee" was repeated in public and we are trying to track down who released the said information.


Ummm because he doesn't trust a committee that appears to have a personal vendetta maybe?
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #91 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 4:47pm
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whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 2:22pm:
released birds crouch and freeze out in the wild. easy catch for a cat
this is why they stopped releaseing them.
try hunting released birds over pointing dogs yuoll see what I mean.

a hard flushing dog would catch a few as well I bet.


The birds are released a month prior (minimum usually more than that) to shooting starting so they have to survive at least 5 five months or seven depending on release date, just to still be there for the guns at the end of the season. This clearly shows they will live longer. Preserve birds are more wily than wild birs by the four or fifth shoot of a season... they've been pursued much more than wild birds are..... There were vitrually no birds on Poronui when they did their one release of 200 birds in Feb of 2002. There is still a healthy pheasant population there todau... I doubt any of them are seven years old. Cool

People who thinks preserve birds are soft, preserve shooting is easy, dog work on preserves is basic or any of the other "strange" opinions I have seen in this thread could only come to conclusion by guessing and by never having had anything to do with a preserve style shoot.

And Hairy, in over ten years of being involved with Preserves in NZ I have never had a gun show anything other than respect and courtesy and more often than not offer a shot or two of the "good stuff" to me during the day... Mind you if my dog was running amuck uncontrolled and ruining what they'd paid for either... I guess that might cause the most mild mannered no superior bloke to have a bit of an attitude... Cheesy Especially if the owner (couldn't call it a handler) of the rioting animal) thought it was funny. Next time someones dog f*cks up your shooting I bet you'll laugh your ass off. Roll Eyes Grin Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #92 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:01pm
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:57am:
The reason i said about the recorder is you are supposed to ask permission of chairman to record meeting, wasn't down and he had it concealed'"why'
After the previous meeting some information that was said "in Committee" was repeated in public and we are trying to track down who released the said information.


Ummm because he doesn't trust a committee that appears to have a personal vendetta maybe?



Please explain about this so called personal vendetta you have bought up, as i know nothing of any such thing, and unless you have proof be bloody careful what you say
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #93 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:04pm
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"Quote" And Hairy, in over ten years of being involved with Preserves in NZ I have never had a gun show anything other than respect and courtesy and more often than not offer a shot or two of the "good stuff" to me during the day... Mind you if my dog was running amuck uncontrolled and ruining what they'd paid for either... I guess that might cause the most mild mannered no superior bloke to have a bit of an attitude...  Especially if the owner (couldn't call it a handler) of the rioting animal) thought it was funny. Next time someones dog f*cks up your shooting I bet you'll laugh your ass off.      


HMmmmmm paying for shooting isn't that illegal in A/W F+G area
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #94 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:09pm
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Oh for f**ks sake dukshutr, did he say anything about Auckland/Waikato? NO. He clearly stated that it was was in his 10+ years of association with preserves that this happened. Are there any "preserves" in A/W?

Jees Loowees.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #95 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:11pm
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On an aside dukshutr, why oh why if it is illegal to pay for shooting in the A/W region do I have to buy a license off you? That constitutes paid shooting does it not? No one in NZ can enjoy waterfowling without paying for it (unless of course you're the landowner).
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #96 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:15pm
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cleaky wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:11pm:
On an aside dukshutr, why oh why if it is illegal to pay for shooting in the A/W region do I have to buy a license off you? That constitutes paid shooting does it not? No one in NZ can enjoy waterfowling without paying for it (unless of course you're the landowner).


Good point Cleaky, F&G's own website even says exactly that.

What is the Fish & Game NZ System?
Fish & Game NZ is a user pays/user says system. Everyone wanting to go sport fishing or gamebird hunting must buy a licence first. Licence holders can stand for their local Fish & Game Council and vote for the Council’s members.


  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #97 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:15pm
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I am afraid that is bloody pathetic Cleaky and read the posts more clearly, perhaps if you took your rose coloured spectacles of it might help.
I am not going to get involved in shit throwing debate when it has all been said before and will say once again that i started with that Geoff Thomas's Programme is going from bad to worse and just a free outing for him and his mates to give sumone publicity, that has been the way it has been for months
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #98 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:20pm
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Grin You calling me pathetic is great, you just made my day.

I'd much rather have my rose tinted spectacles than your blinkers matie.

Please let me remind you that YOU were the one that started this off by slinging a bit of unjustified shit Guy's way. Don't make me dig out your posts from a couple of pages back Mister.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #99 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:28pm
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Clarky the reason they survive is becuase the preditors are controlled, not so over the fence.

you not going to  tell me that a preserve bird is as smart as a wiley old wild co*k bird are you???.
each year most birds that are shot are the young ones wild or not.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #100 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:43pm
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cleaky wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:20pm:
Grin You calling me pathetic is great, you just made my day.

I'd much rather have my rose tinted spectacles than your blinkers matie.

Please let me remind you that YOU were the one that started this off by slinging a bit of unjustified shit Guy's way. Don't make me dig out your posts from a couple of pages back Mister.


wasn't calling you pathetic at all, i have no need to stoop to name calling like some others on here, i said the paying of a license fee is the same as paying for shooting at a preserve is pathetic.
If it wasn't for the Acclamisation Societies/Fish and Game efforts in NZ we are lucky to have the sport the way it is, and yours and my license fee helps to fund keeping the sport for all not just a few as was the case in England when first settlers arrived here.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #101 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:55pm
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[quote author=12pointer link=1218864753/15#23 date=1218931380]My 5 cents 10cents worth (no such thing as 5 cents anymore Angry) I saw it and didnt think much of this "staged" programe either.... but i must confess to being biased against geoff thomas. So why do i watch it Undecided, maybe in the hope his show will improve, and to see some genuine hunters and fishermen that do appear on it from time to time. If you took that idiot giggleing bugger out of it, and all his blow hard antics, and directed more of the footage to the people actually doing the REAL fishing and hunting maybe it would improve.
I think i owe this thread another 40 cents by now Grin.
I would like to get off topic about Game preserves but thats better in another thread.[/quote

Did any one not read my post in the What a blast thread?

Watching a Geoff Thomas show is half an hour of your life you will never get back.

His shows have been shit for years. Surely people must realize his shows are never, I repeat never going to be any thing more than a bunch of nobs talking shit with plenty of jawing and f...k all,  if any real action.

Claim your life back and either get out there and do it yourself or troll the internet.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #102 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 6:10pm
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well what a great guy mr ralph is he has payed for all those birds becase he loves all of us shooters.he set up the driven shoot to make money.it has got a bit out of hand now that a w f g said no.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #103 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 6:36pm
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:01pm:
Quote:
DukShooter wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:57am:
The reason i said about the recorder is you are supposed to ask permission of chairman to record meeting, wasn't down and he had it concealed'"why'
After the previous meeting some information that was said "in Committee" was repeated in public and we are trying to track down who released the said information.


Ummm because he doesn't trust a committee that appears to have a personal vendetta maybe?



Please explain about this so called personal vendetta you have bought up, as i know nothing of any such thing, and unless you have proof be bloody careful what you say


I will 100% explain that in absolute detail the very second you are prepared to fully explain all of the comments, alluded remarks, inneuendo and other writings you have made here and not backed up when challenged. Undecided

As for your  idle threat... find a court in the land that will cite me for saying  something "appears" to be something and I'll buy you a drink afterwards.

And I happen to know the preserve he was on was in the Eastern region. I have the private message to verify it.

Had it been on public land and the guy had bought a license the shooting he had "paid" for would still be being ruined.

I'm buggered if I know how you get voted in if these are the comprehension skills you display at meetings, I hope not.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #104 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 6:36pm
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sidelock wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 6:10pm:
well what a great guy mr ralph is he has payed for all those birds becase he loves all of us shooters.he set up the driven shoot to make money.

I think he loves the sport and wants to promote in NZ. As for making money good on him! Why shouldn't he? He has outlaid money to lease the land, buy and raise the birds, pay a gamekeeper, maintain the land....why shouldn't he get some return from it?
At least he isn't one of these wankers that set up development companies and build cheap as chips leaky buildings for maximum profit or finance companies and rip off hardworking Kiwi's while sitting on the pigs back getting richer and fatter when it turns to shit.

I think there is a little Tall Poppy syndrome going on here....
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #105 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:24pm
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Quote:
Kawhia wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 8:55pm:
if they are so self sustaining why did eastern have a reduced bag on ducks this year?
if they sustain them selves why do we even bother with limits?
if fish levels are self sustaining why can't we catch fish like we used too?
f&g stopped releasing not long after they took over, yet numbers have dropped in far more places than they have increased, apart from pukes and swan.
the true picture in regards to the wild pheasant is that they are in small limited numbers in the waikato, quail are extinct in area's once alive with them, blamimg the farming sector for loss of habitant or chemical use still leaves the question why are they not in the same numbers they used to be, back when the population was 'topped up'. sprays and clearing land was still happening way before f&g came about and there was a shitload more hunters too.
ducks that live on ponds on private property quite happily breed and raise more ducks, are they of limited value to most shooters too?  both ducks and pheasants happily get about the country by flying.
do those same ducks living on private land that you can't shoot on because of lack of permission have no value at all too most shooters just because a father and son have shot the place for years?
you are starting to sound like communist don the duckshtr Grin Grin
there is no proof the wild population is at a stable level. thats f&g bullshit, every time you shoot a wild bird you could be shooting the last bird in the area for many years.
the birds will not starve they will simply move further out from the liberation point, contary to what mr duckshtr will have you believe they are not handfeed chickens.
a/w where pretty quick to try and close the place down up at lakelands but they where double quick to offer to take the birds away for public release........why would they do that if the bird population was so stable Smiley

Highs and lows of a fluctuating population caused by a variey of natural reasons a dry spring for example will reult in higher mortality of ducklings.Why have limits? To give the tally shooter something to strive for Wink Quite sure you know the answer to that but are just manipulating things to suit your own means so won't go into it more.
did it not occur to you that when releases are stopped the poulation in most cases will fall to levels that the habitat can support because the numbers aren't being artificially boosted by large numbers that are in all probability too much for the habitat. But then once again I am repeating myself because you choose to ignore some simple fact to suit your own means. About quail numbers falling you answered your own question when you said the numbers declined when they stopped "topping them up".
It is only the pond that has no value for other shooters during the season the ducks are,only very large ponds can feed a large number of ducks and the only for a limited time which means they will travel to places where other shooters will get a chance at them. That is true even with ponds that are fed.
They will only move further from a preserve that doesn't feed them (and to try and push a point home only survive and breed if the new home is suitable)which some do so once again not all preserves will give equal oppurtunities to a lot of shooters.
you have proof thatwild bird populations aren't stable, be interesting to see some links to that!!!
Your constant personal attacks on dukshutr are uncalled for and just show how biased you are and serve no useful purpose.

bugga having to work 12 hour shifts, and the debate has taken off again, i am not playing with words to suit my own means, i am having a hard time trying to imagine what sort of evidence or proof you require about pheasant behaviour but there is at least three trained gamekeepers who post on here who could give you the exact facts and figures on survival rates etc.
we have released pheasants on our block a few years running and the results are still alive and kicking.
i don't trust duckshtr at all, i don't hide that fact, Grin the old saying 'don't argue with an idiot because they will bring you down to there level and beat you with experience'  plays a big part Wink
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #106 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:28pm
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 5:04pm:
"Quote" And Hairy, in over ten years of being involved with Preserves in NZ I have never had a gun show anything other than respect and courtesy and more often than not offer a shot or two of the "good stuff" to me during the day... Mind you if my dog was running amuck uncontrolled and ruining what they'd paid for either... I guess that might cause the most mild mannered no superior bloke to have a bit of an attitude...  Especially if the owner (couldn't call it a handler) of the rioting animal) thought it was funny. Next time someones dog f*cks up your shooting I bet you'll laugh your ass off.      


HMmmmmm paying for shooting isn't that illegal in A/W F+G area

what about the fee they charge to hunt the pheasants in woodhill forest, and they did also release 40 poults to build up numbers.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #107 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:29pm
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and good on him, i have no problem with what Guy has done with what he has set up and never said that i had. It was a shame that Geoffs programme didn't show more dog work and actual bird shooting, he could have covered alot more with just the pheasants instead of flash meals

I think you mean the charge for the permit to hunt dont you, deer huntetrs have to get one as well. and for the poults, from what i have heard there are a heap of birds up there but every little bit helps

And i would trust you Jason even less than you trust me
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #108 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:38pm
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but deer are not gamebirds, you cannot charge to shoot them in the a/w region.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #109 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:59pm
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia

Talking to Guy at the week-end its incredible what was said in that meeting he recorded it to get a true and accurate record of what was said. Guy said it was the same at the last meeting that the council seems to have issues with various ethnic groups  Angry. I think he is sending it to the Race relations Commisoner.  No wonder you are worried Embarrassed
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #110 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 8:56pm
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Kawhia wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 7:24pm:
[q
bugga having to work 12 hour shifts, and the debate has taken off again, i am not playing with words to suit my own means, i am having a hard time trying to imagine what sort of evidence or proof you require about pheasant behaviour but there is at least three trained gamekeepers who post on here who could give you the exact facts and figures on survival rates etc.
we have released pheasants on our block a few years running and the results are still alive and kicking.
i don't trust duckshtr at all, i don't hide that fact, Grin the old saying 'don't argue with an idiot because they will bring you down to there level and beat you with experience'  plays a big part Wink


Yeah just got home after a 12 myself and things have really moved. i think I will wait until the brain is a little less fuzzy before commenting further.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #111 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 9:23pm
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Quote:
DukShooter wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 10:22pm:
Maybe Mr Ralph who was at out last council meeting and found to have a concealed taperecorder might be able to inform you better Kawhia

Talking to Guy at the week-end its incredible what was said in that meeting he recorded it to get a true and accurate record of what was said. Guy said it was the same at the last meeting that the council seems to have issues with various ethnic groups  Angry. I think he is sending it to the Race relations Commisoner.  No wonder you are worried Embarrassed



Myself and the Council have nothing to be worried about at all, did he play you the tape or are you going on hearsay
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #112 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:04pm
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DukShooter wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 9:23pm:
Myself and the Council have nothing to be worried about at all, did he play you the tape or are you going on hearsay


hearsay
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #113 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:17pm
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Raptorman wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:06pm:
c

[quote]I'm nearing the end of my first Kiwi pheasant season, and we'll have shot less that 50% of those released.  And that's normal.  It'll be the same next year, and the year after that.  Some will stay, and if I keep killing those cats, ferrets and stoats, some will breed.  Right now, already with spring in the air, my birds are colouring up ready for fighting over the girls.  When they have sorted out their hareems, they'll spread out to find their own territory.   The Partridge are pairing, and will also spread out far and wide.



That's all well and good but of those 50% whats the ratio of hens to cocks? Who will be spreading out hens or cocks? And as for the partridge they have a poor record for establishing here and are off limits to everyone except a preserve shooter anyway.

Quote:
If any preserve has had to do habitat restoration, or chooses to do so,  surely that is something that is good for New Zealand as a whole, before it does become one rather large dairy unit?  Are you saying nobody should improve their land or do anything good on it, unless we can all be there to enjoy it?  I don't have much of a garden (something of an understatement) – can I come sit in yours?  (I'll  bring a slab)!


I think you have missed my point about habitat restoration. It is only of benefit to the preserve and the immediate area around it and to the people who can access these areas..far from the whole of N.Z at all. Don't you hate it when people put words in your mouth? I do so will ignore your question.
You are welcome in my garden anytime but don't worry about the slab just bring the welcome ticket that people pay you to enter your garden it probably costs them a shit load more than a slab.

Quote:
Pheasants, I am only too aware, love to wander.  They really do – and don't just think next door, try twenty, thirty, or much more kilometres.  They have bugger all else to do, and plenty of time to do it.  Scratch around in the bush or roadsides, there is endless bugs and food opportunities for them even now at the height of winter.  Again, I know, because I watch my birds!  I have many birds around  my boundaries (apart from the ones that succumb to kiwi style drive-by shootings, hmm, a bit weird) that have found a patch they like and been there all year, without eating a scrap of my food.  These things survive the wilds of Siberia and northern China don't forget -  they know how to make a living.


I'm sure they do and I will take your word on that since you are the expert and we tend to show our ignorance of all thing pheasanty.
One thing that has me puzzled though is for a bird that can survive the wilds of Siberia and China there seems to be a lot of places they have failed in the mild climate of N.Z.


Quote:
You see, the only reason we have to improve and supply extra habitat, and feed, is because to make this type of shooting work we have to keep decent numbers on the place.  That means catering for all their needs, in the vague hope that most of them will choose to stay.  The don't 'jump the fence', as I've seen written on here – there is no fence, they are free to leave anytime they choose.  Plenty do, in small numbers here, there and everywhere – and it is those, ladies and gentlemen, that are spreading out and stocking your lovely country.  Look around you ANYWHERE you drive in NZ, there is oodles of habitat and rough cover that will support all those pesky wandering pheasants.
[


In other words you are artificially supporting a bigger population than the habitat can sustain, for the benefit of a few people once again a long way from benefiting the whole of N.Z.
I do drive drive around and see oodles of of habitat but no pheasants. A lot of these areas have had failed liberations. Liberations that where to hopefully establish a wild self sustaining population not one topped up each year by farmed birds.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #114 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:28pm
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Bloody heaps of phezzys around  whakatane.. not a day go's by that i dont see them coming out after rain and enjoying the sunshine..
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #115 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:43pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:28pm:
Bloody heaps of phezzys around  whakatane.. not a day go's by that i dont see them coming out after rain and enjoying the sunshine..

was my favorite place to hunt in the day.
matata for brownies and roosters on the beach front with a cool breeze and a warm day ya cant beat the place
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #116 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:51pm
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They should plant more kiwifruit,I get around the Bay a lot and most kiwifruit orchards roosters are running around like chooks.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #117 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:53pm
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Wingmaster wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:51pm:
They should plant more kiwifruit,I get around the Bay a lot and most kiwifruit orchards roosters are running around like chooks.

yep they are .
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #118 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:55pm
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Problem is no one touches them even on the beach near the golf course. i counted 15 of em at 4 in the arvo along the side of the road and that was feb 08, spoke to a copper that was down there and he said i can use an air rifle down there, i may turn gay and hunt me down some cocks for flytying me think's Smiley
but they to nice n cute to do that so guess i'll buy some feathers yet again lol
  

Eh bro!! does this white man taste funny to you???&&naa bro.... must be imported meat.. stick to eating antelopes they taste better.........
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #119 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:57pm
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Tikka, I see where you are coming from but some of your points are flawed. As far as I'm aware climate isn't the reason pheasants establish in some areas and not in others... they seem to not be bothered by the snow at Poronui and the Ohakune and Raetahi areas seem to hold plenty. Pheasants didn't do well in Central Otago until preserves came along, or Canterbury for that matter, now there are huntable populations on public land in both areas all because of preserves in the general area.

I can't answer for Raptorman as far as Harekeke goes but on all shoots I have been involved with the ratio of released birds is usually 50/50 however, I believe there has been more than just numbers benefit to our wild populations. Diverse genetics is also making our wild birds a better hunting proposition. For years we hunt wild birds with no new genetic infusion to the stocks. By our own actions we cull the birds predisposed to hold and not flush wild. In Rotoehu over many years I noticed the birds became extremely wild flushing and not just late in the season. My belief is we were actually culling for this trait. Hunting improves around preserves not just because of the birds escaping but the improvement to the localised genetics.

I'm not sure where you got this "immediate area around it" concept from. As birds spread they do establish and they travel far and wide. I have been involved with preserves over a lot of time and i have not seen a single negative effect in any instance. Only the opposite. One of the things that irks me in this argument is that the people with the anti stance against preserves seem to have little or no experience with them. I do not understand why they don't make some effort to find out what they are doing for the local area, what they provide the wider hunting community and to really try to see if their fears are real or just perceived... they've been here long enough for us to know and yet instead of evidence we just keep hearing this same old supposition...

And I see plenty of pheasants all over the place around here... and there's no preserves here... I see them where there are and where there are not. I shot them before preserves and I've shot them after both wild and preserve birds (Walked up only, never shot driven birds personally.)
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #120 - Aug 18th, 2008 at 11:44pm
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[quote author=Tikka T3 link=1218864753/105#113 date=1219054677][quote author=Raptorman link=1218864753/75#77 date=1219021571]c

How do you do that?  All those quotes in neat little boxes, and a well worded reply to each point.  Beautiful!  I'm not running away Tikka T3 (nice rifle, use one meeself), just checked in and shocked to see six zillion replies on this slightly gone off, then on, then off again topic.  Bed is calling but once I've worked out how to justify your response with equally good quotes, I'm there!

But while I'm on, just quickly, people don't pay me anything to enter my 'garden' - I am just a common old employee.  My interest in game shooting is not business, as such - I just do a job.  I know that means I get paid, but i am not coming at this debate from a business minded angle.  I wasn't really trying to put any words in your mouth T3, just making a fair point I think, that why should land owners not want/be able to improve their land?  More people now have access to this property, being managed as a preserve, than ever would have bothered, or wanted too, beforehand.

We can keep going around in circles, and I am sure we will, but I just don't see where you are coming from on this particular point.  I thought my comparison was a good one.  It may not yet be definitive to prove that preserves really DO benefit the general areas (though I am sure they do, and I can give you a long list of folk who would say so), but at least we should be able to agree that they DO NOT detract from the surrounding areas?  Nobody claimed preserves were of benefit to the wholeof NZ, we are (at a very vague guess) only talking about eight or so truly operating preserves, probably no more than 2000 acres each, spread far and wide.

Righto, I'm gonna cut a track, before I really start talking bollocks.  Night all.....  Lips Sealed
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #121 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 12:00am
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Raptorman wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 11:44pm:
 It may not yet be definitive to prove that preserves really DO benefit the general areas (though I am sure they do, and I can give you a long list of folk who would say so), but at least we should be able to agree that they DO NOT detract from the surrounding areas?  Nobody claimed preserves were of benefit to the wholeof NZ, we are (at a very vague guess) only talking about eight or so truly operating preserves, probably no more than 2000 acres each, spread far and wide.


There's at least 18 registered, don't know how you define "operating". Your input has been very balanced and appreciated.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #122 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 12:47am
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Hey clark are not preserves. god that sounds like bottled jam lingo. are they not british ways to hunt? and are we not trying to get away from them and be our selfs? our own nation and not have to sniff the bum of that old hag on the throne...thought we got away from thoes ways and developed our own ways to bag cocks and do away with being ruled over... we hunt our own way we dont need pom's showing how its done.. anyway thats my gripe..
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #123 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 7:10am
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 19th, 2008 at 12:47am:
Hey clark are not preserves. god that sounds like bottled jam lingo. are they not british ways to hunt? and are we not trying to get away from them and be our selfs? our own nation and not have to sniff the bum of that old hag on the throne...thought we got away from thoes ways and developed our own ways to bag cocks and do away with being ruled over... we hunt our own way we dont need pom's showing how its done.. anyway thats my gripe..

Sounds like a little insecurity there mate?
We already have our own way of doing things, we do not have a class system or lordships or any of that bullshit and if others in this country seem to think they are better than another we take them down pretty quick.
We are not going to change our way of life or the way we hunt. I think the preserves are great but to be honest I prefer to have my dog flush anything, then retrieve anything, that I shoot. Thats not ever going to change form me personally. However the preserves give us another angle..or another approach.
I wouldn't worry about it.
And to be honest the Poms are not showing us how its done, as you say, we are already doing it our way. This is different. This is people paying to come and shoot birds not pay to go hunting. If thats what they want to do then why not? It certainly gives hunters the chance to work their dogs with plenty of noise and action...great for steadying ya dog Wink
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #124 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 8:23am
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i sapose so Smiley preserves as you say mabey good for the few. but what i have read here is that, i can breed up large on phezzys n ducks and charge people cause its on private land if thats how i read it.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #125 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 8:40am
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pickled_sausage The point is that it's not ajust a 'few' who are benefitting, there are:

1. The local hunters who get to hunt the boundary hoppers, and yes in the case of Lakelands there are more than a few. I talked to a couple of them a few weeks ago and they are quite happy.
2. The beaters and pickers who get to go out and do something they love, work their dogs and mingle with like minded folks and share a pretty special connection.
3. The dog trialists, who without the opportunity to work where there are good numbers of game available, simply can't truly evaluate their dog's abilities against the next dog's abilities.
4.  The enthusiasts, who like to come along and experience a day out.

Like I said earlier, Lakelands has given a damn good experience to over 300 people (not counting the locals who are benefitting from the spread of game). Tell me where else in AW can you find a resource like that? Certainly it doesn't suit everyone, but more importantly IT DOESN'T LIMIT ANYONE'S OPPORTUNITIES.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #126 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 8:44am
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whereami wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 2:22pm:
released birds crouch and freeze out in the wild. easy catch for a cat
this is why they stopped releaseing them.
try hunting released birds over pointing dogs yuoll see what I mean.

a hard flushing dog would catch a few as well I bet.



And Hairy, in over ten years of being involved with Preserves in NZ I have never had a gun show anything other than respect and courtesy and more often than not offer a shot or two of the "good stuff" to me during the day... Mind you if my dog was running amuck uncontrolled and ruining what they'd paid for either... I guess that might cause the most mild mannered no superior bloke to have a bit of an attitude... Cheesy Especially if the owner (couldn't call it a handler) of the rioting animal) thought it was funny. Next time someones dog f*cks up your shooting I bet you'll laugh your ass off. Roll Eyes Grin Roll Eyes


I didn't think it was funny at the time RM, but it is amusing now I look back on it.  I wasn't hiding in the scrub but there was no use storming down there and ruining the drive either was there?  It wasn't because of that that I felt that attitude either.  My dog doesn't run amuck as was far more use than some of the other dogs there.  Tim was saying he felt the same at the shoot at your place with the foggy morning helicopters and the girls?  Maybe you get more respect than the beaters.  Undecided Undecided  You had a bloody long day on Sunday?!  I was going to call in but saw that you were still flat nacker.

Talked to Tim the other day... said he was missing his dog heaps but didn't say anything about his wife  Grin Grin.  Seems happy enough.

I emphasise the point again that preserves are not interfering with the hunting of wild birds, but AWFG are interfering with people right to be shooters/beaters/pickerupers.  I think some people could even learn a thing or two from preserves about predator control for wild birds... eg running a trapping or poison line around an area that you shoot often.  I think this is going to go round in circles!
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #127 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 9:18am
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Hairy, how are preserves interfering with the hunting of wild birds? I've tried and tried and can't think of a single way that they could be.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #128 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 9:53am
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What are you on about Cleaky?   Wink  Woops, missing one word out mixes up the whole thing!!
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #129 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 10:05am
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:25pm:
if thoes birds was reared from eggs, then how will they cope being hand fed all there lives, and having to fend for them selfs in the wild? how many surrive ?


Sorry, but your posts are now becoming a lesson in stupidity. Fact is that would survive. So you dont like what they are doing, thats ok, but get over it because its not that big a deal and I personally can see some benefits coming from it
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #130 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 10:11am
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Well excuse me for posting sir high almighty. this is a general posting site and i am allowed my views even if you disagree with it.. i just stated its not cricket old chap to stand there and get someone to biff over sized chickens at ya..
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #131 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 10:21am
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pickled_sausage ... I have to ask, have you ever been to a driven shoot? I attended my first one on Sunday and I have to say, it is NOTHING like what you're describing! The birds that came over me knew what the game was and were flying high and fast ... very challenging shooting. I would suggest visiting a shoot and checking it out for yourself before commenting. It's all very well having an opinion, but it makes a lot of sense to have an INFORMED opinion.  Smiley
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #132 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 10:32am
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 10:55pm:
Problem is no one touches them even on the beach near the golf course. i counted 15 of em at 4 in the arvo along the side of the road and that was feb 08, spoke to a copper that was down there and he said i can use an air rifle down there, i may turn gay and hunt me down some cocks for flytying me think's Smiley
but they to nice n cute to do that so guess i'll buy some feathers yet again lol

Pickled sausage you could always ask someone that shoots to get you some feathers, or turn up at a preserve and they could pick some up for you ........ see they do have a benefit to a wider group Grin
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #133 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 10:44am
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pp I will do that thanks Smiley  and yes i have not been to a jam jar shoot. never will the thought of being part of the british way of "shooting" is not my way of doing things. i would rather walk along side a trained dog and shoot over the dog than standing still waiting for bashers to scare over sized chickens at you just so you can shoot them and then head off to mouse sized dinners that cost more than a 4 wheel drive. but.... i will as you say get over it.. just to please your lordship Smiley
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #134 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 11:26am
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If you're going to take that narrow minded and frankly ridiculous view then kindly take your opinion and put it anywhere you like except where I can see it. It's an arrogant position to be posting from and unless you're willing to at least go and see what it's like you're going to remain uninformed and therefore reasonably unqualified to comment. Unfortunate, but hey, that's your choice.  Smiley
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #135 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 11:55am
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its my opnion and i'll post ir err stick it where i like. we are all entitled to our views. and no i dont want to visit  jam  jar farms and have over sized chickens biffed at me thanks. but.. if thats what your into then praise the lord so be it. you do your thing and i'll work dogs for my chickens thanks Smiley
this site is for discusions about things that matter to one and all. aopnions will always clash we just have to grit and bear it no matter how much people disagree on thing's after all its a free country long may it be that way.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #136 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 11:56am
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Pickled your position is absolutely valid for why you wouldn't want to participate in a driven shoot. I can understand totally that it's not your thing. I would also mention that there are thousands, in fact hundreds of thousands of people in the UK that feel as you and prefer what gthey call "roughshooting" over dogs to driven shooting... that is absolutely valid. "our style" is in fact not our style it's a UK style, NZ settlers preferred roughshooting to driven but that sure doesn't make it a Kiwi thing... it's done all over the world and was sdone in the UK prior to NZ being settled.

What I don't get is why you feel because you don't like it why others shouldn't if it has no ill effect on anyone and actually offers some real benefits to the wider hunting community.

If you send me a private message with your contact details I will organise for you to come to a driven shoot and watch as my guest... There are still a couple of shoots near you left this season. If you feel the same way afterwards then all well and good.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #137 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 11:59am
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Mr. Sausage, I am in no way suggesting that your opinion isn't valid. I just hope you'll take Clark up on his offer and go see a shoot in action, then at least your opinion will be valid AND qualified.  Smiley
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #138 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 12:05pm
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Ok i really should do that, thanks but no thanks
thanks for the offer thoe.
to much work to do till xmas  then its game fishing time, no rest for the wicked.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #139 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 12:08pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 19th, 2008 at 10:11am:
Well excuse me for posting sir high almighty. this is a general posting site and i am allowed my views even if you disagree with it.. i just stated its not cricket old chap to stand there and get someone to biff over sized chickens at ya..


yes you are, just as everyone else is. None of them need or deserve your narrow mind abuse just because they do something you dont like.


  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #140 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 12:13pm
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its not narrow mind abuse  its an opnion.. there will always be things people dont like. i said my peace im over it Smiley
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #141 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 1:57pm
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Besides being only average telly, more like ones private home video, which I suppose one could almost except but for the fact, the birds were hardly sporting. If you looked carefully they were all very close infact one or two shot by Geoff were just above the trees (they looked like willow or similiar) and one or two incoming below the tree line, so much for the Golden rule of those shoots, which is only shoot birds with sky all round them!! I have had the luck of spending 2 days filming (not available here sorry-was for a private video) and one days shooting in England on a real driven pheasant drive. We had a 1000 bird day (I think they have now limited that amount of birds, the maximum number now being 500 birds) and you could not shoot any low birds, and I reckon the average height was 35- 40 metres. I have absolutely nothing against preserves and believe that they do stock areas ouside the preserves. A good example of that was a few years ago there used to be some pheasant shoots around Lansdowne/Tai Tapu  (no longer unfortunately) and there was a very obvious increase in birds around the surronding farm lands and river beds. There are preserves in N.Z. that do run good shoots with good 'sporting' birds, it's just a shame that prime time telly has one that is below par on all fronts.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #142 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 9:55pm
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pickled_sausage wrote on Aug 17th, 2008 at 7:25pm:
if thoes birds was reared from eggs, then how will they cope being hand fed all there lives, and having to fend for them selfs in the wild? how many surrive ?


My dear Mr Sausage Pickle, I like you more by the minute!  They are indeed reared from eggs, just like the really wild ones.  They surrive exactly as you have to get this far - they live by their wits and with sheer dogged determination to make the next day.

I want to thank you for putting a much needed smile on my face this evening - your idea about the preserve is brilliant.  I'll never think about this place the same again, and I'm already drawing up a new logo for the website!  I need a clean strawberry jam jar now!

http://www.thewanderyears.net/harakeke
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #143 - Aug 19th, 2008 at 9:56pm
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Tikka, I see where you are coming from but some of your points are flawed. As far as I'm aware climate isn't the reason pheasants establish in some areas and not in others... they seem to not be bothered by the snow at Poronui and the Ohakune and Raetahi areas seem to hold plenty. Pheasants didn't do well in Central Otago until preserves came along, or Canterbury for that matter, now there are huntable populations on public land in both areas all because of preserves in the general area.



Show me an argument that doesn't have flaws Smiley The flaws in the argument of how much preserves benefit wild populations and hunters is what drew me into this discussion to start with.  By huntable populations do you mean self sustaining or just pockets of birds that give a short term benefit to opportunistic shooters. You must mean the preserves in C.S.I as I don't see any mention of preserves in Nth Canterbury but may be wrong on that. The ones in C.S.I in my expereince have provided only very limited and I mean very limited extra opportunities to shooters and most of that I would say is of the drive by shooting variety. Another over statement by a pro preserve advocate in my opinion.

Quote:
I can't answer for Raptorman as far as Harekeke goes but on all shoots I have been involved with the ratio of released birds is usually 50/50 however,


The ratio of 50/50 seems high from my admittedly limited experience of preserves but from any photos and T.V programs I have seen there is always shit loads more co*k birds to be seen than hen birds. Although that could be because the cocks are more photogenic. But then from what can be seen from the road around a local preserve at any time of the year thers is always a lot more co*k birds seen in the paddocks and around the feeders than hen birds. That also includes the few hundred metres of river that can be accessed legally to shoot the "one of the Canterbury's huntable populations" courtesy of the preserves.

Quote:
I believe there has been more than just numbers benefit to our wild populations. Diverse genetics is also making our wild birds a better hunting proposition. For years we hunt wild birds with no new genetic infusion to the stocks. By our own actions we cull the birds predisposed to hold and not flush wild. In Rotoehu over many years I noticed the birds became extremely wild flushing and not just late in the season. My belief is we were actually culling for this trait. Hunting improves around preserves not just because of the birds escaping but the improvement to the localised genetics.


I think the genetic argument is possibly flawed as well when you think of the thousands of Deer Chamois and Tahr that are descended from a few original release in this country there doesn't seem to be any diminishment in there ability to survive regardless of just about anything thrown at them.

Quote:
I'm not sure where you got this "immediate area around it" concept from. As birds spread they do establish and they travel far and wide. I have been involved with preserves over a lot of time and i have not seen a single negative effect in any instance. Only the opposite. One of the things that irks me in this argument is that the people with the anti stance against preserves seem to have little or no experience with them. I do not understand why they don't make some effort to find out what they are doing for the local area, what they provide the wider hunting community and to really try to see if their fears are real or just perceived... they've been here long enough for us to know and yet instead of evidence we just keep hearing this same old supposition...


This is the one where I am having a bit of trouble expressing myself properly, but I'll have another go.
Raptor man uses the term "Dairy Desert" which is a good one so imagine an oasis in this desert that provides the discerning pheasant with everything he wants. So why would he leave it especially when it is surrounded by a desert that doesn't provided him with even the basics to live. With the investment that a preserve has in birds I find it hard to believe that at the end of the season they do nothing to either attract birds back or encourage them to stay.just not good business sense is it?


Quote:
And I see plenty of pheasants all over the place around here... and there's no preserves here... I see them where there are and where there are not. I shot them before preserves and I've shot them after both wild and preserve birds (Walked up only, never shot driven birds personally.)


Well I envy you I would love to live in a place like that but unfortunately even with the preserves in the region I live it isn't going to happen any time soon.

Raptorman wrote on Aug 18th, 2008 at 1:06pm:
c
How do you do that?  All those quotes in neat little boxes, and a well worded reply to each point.  Beautiful! 

But while I'm on, just quickly, people don't pay me anything to enter my 'garden' -


Nah I'm not telling ya Wink Smiley

In that case you are welcome with a slab anytime...........just not Lion Red or Tuis  Grin

Click on the quote button on the top left of a post and the new window will open. Go the paragraph you want to comment on highlight it and click the quote button above the smilies it the blue arrow thing 6th from the right top row. then type your answer underneath. do that for each parargraph you want to comment on. If you have (quote) (quote at the beginning and end of your post delete the first and last(quote). Someone might know an easier way but that works for me.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #144 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 12:12am
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Grin Raptorman better not have the word preserves on any sign outdoors or website, or you will have lil old grannys knocking on your door asking for 10 jar's of preserved strawberry jam  Grin Grin
  

Eh bro!! does this white man taste funny to you???&&naa bro.... must be imported meat.. stick to eating antelopes they taste better.........
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #145 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 8:59am
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I think the genetic argument is possibly flawed as well when you think of the thousands of Deer Chamois and Tahr that are descended from a few original release in this country there doesn't seem to be any diminishment in there ability to survive regardless of just about anything thrown at them.


I'm convinced of it having witnessed the Rotoehu population for over 20 years and the changes. The first 10 years i hunted that area the birds got wilder and wilder in their flushing and I have even seen birds fly from a ridge top 500 meters away at the slam of a car door.... The last ten years has seen a marked increase in the number of birds prepared to hold tight.

The comparison with deer is relevant but falls down when you look at the amount of exposure to hunters comparatively. In Rotoehu I would think it would be damn near impossible for a rooster to go very long without an encounter with hunters or dogs... it's hammered and attracts hunters from far and wide mainly because the population is so healthy on all of that public access hunting... could this be because there are at least four preserves within a 10 km radius of it?

Also, the "dairy desert" analogy is flawed because you seem to be picturing a complete desert. I hunted the surrounding areas of Harekeke all the way from Tahakouri to Orakei Karako and the entire district when based in Taupo. Between that preserve and the forestry (Both private and public access areas) there are many creeks, rough fence lines etc which act as perfect corridors for a Pheasant on the move. I don't envy Raptorman his task. In a straight line from his back boundary to a private forest who used to let us hunt their blue gum area in a straight line (As the pheasant flies) is about 1/2 a mile... I'd love to get back on that block now.... in fact I might have to ring and ask for next season... will truly be worth the trip... and that 500 acre block adjoins a public forestry anyone can hunt that wasn't too bad before the preserve... I'm sure the locals are having a ball there this year.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #146 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:30am
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Rotoehu has alway enjoyed a good population.
to compare deer with pheasants defys any logic at all.
phessies are subject to ground based preds .
outside of humans deer have no preds at all.
deer learnt very quickly to evade helicopters .
the mom teaches the fawn how to survive and the fawn learns from the moma.
techniques used to evade getting eaten are taught however the ability to run away is built in.

escapees are gona sit tight more because they grew up in an enviroment where there are few ground based preds.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #147 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:34am
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whereami wrote on Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:30am:
Rotoehu has alway enjoyed a good population.
to compare deer with pheasants defys any logic at all.
phessies are subject to ground based preds .
outside of humans deer have no preds at all.
deer learnt very quickly to evade helicopters .
the mom teaches the fawn how to survive and the fawn learns from the moma.
techniques used to evade getting eaten are taught however the ability to run away is built in.

escapees are gona sit tight more because they grew up in an enviroment where there are few ground based preds.


You are right but there's a genetic element too. But you seem to think Preserves are devoid of predators... Gamekeepers do their best, but trust me... there is always plenty of vermin at large on every preserve. It's a non stop battle... think it through... with that amount of "food" for vermin, when the gamekeeper nails one there will be plenty more just waiting to move right in and they do. Cats, Stoats, Ferrets, hedgehogs, weasels, rats, and more are a constant presence on the best keepered preserve.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #148 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:38am
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Quote:
whereami wrote on Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:30am:
Rotoehu has alway enjoyed a good population.
to compare deer with pheasants defys any logic at all.
phessies are subject to ground based preds .
outside of humans deer have no preds at all.
deer learnt very quickly to evade helicopters .
the mom teaches the fawn how to survive and the fawn learns from the moma.
techniques used to evade getting eaten are taught however the ability to run away is built in.

escapees are gona sit tight more because they grew up in an enviroment where there are few ground based preds.


You are right but there's a genetic element too. But you seem to think Preserves are devoid of predators... Gamekeepers do their best, but trust me... there is always plenty of vermin at large on every preserve. It's a non stop battle... think it through... with that amount of "food" for vermin, when the gamekeeper nails one there will be plenty more just waiting to move right in and they do. Cats, Stoats, Ferrets, hedgehogs, weasels, rats, and more are a constant presence on the best keepered preserve.

  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #149 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:45am
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I get that mate but as the proportion of game an areas holds increases so does the number of predators it will hold proportionately, so even while keepered the number of predators in the area can still be higher than an equivalent wild, unkeepered area.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #150 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:45am
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I want to make this very clear I AM NOT AGIASNT PRSERVES.
the day will come when I am too old and unable to hunt the mountians for deer and tharzzz and then I will return to bird shooting.
I will hunt around outside preserves given the opp, to pick up some easy birds,heck I would hunt inside if it meant I could get a few birds over a young dog, heck heck heck I would shoot preserves if it meant I could get my eye in prior to the season starting..... not that that would ever happen in this country.
to shoot birds over my dogs out of season would be a huge draw card for me.
tight sitting birds  primo......
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #151 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:56am
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Some interesting points of view in this thread!  There are those who can see the benefits of breeding and releasing 1000s of birds into the wild (however they end up being shot) and then there are those who seem to detest it, not because of the way they are shot, but rather because of their blinkered view that driven shooting is the preserve of the Hooray Henry and somehow linked to the Monarchy. ALL hunting was at one time the preserve of the very rich and privileged so get over it.

I've shot at driven shoots in the UK when I was younger and although I enjoyed it, I wouldn't make it a regular occurrence. I spent the 28th June this year working my arse off for three Parries and one co*k pheasant in real bad weather. The retrieve on the pheasant was made by my Springer and was a stunner of a find; that was the highlight of the day for me.

With more and more people discovering the joys of hunting, more and more birds are going to be shot. Preserves can only be seen as a good thing in this respect as a large proportion of their birds will end up being shot by people like me and maybe the Sausage fella.

Why does nobody do syndicates in NZ?
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #152 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:59am
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Why does nobody do syndicates in NZ?

we dont trust each other Grin
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #153 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 10:07am
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whereami wrote on Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:45am:
I want to make this very clear I AM NOT AGIASNT PRSERVES.
the day will come when I am too old and unable to hunt the mountians for deer and tharzzz and then I will return to bird shooting.
I will hunt around outside preserves given the opp, to pick up some easy birds,heck I would hunt inside if it meant I could get a few birds over a young dog, heck heck heck I would shoot preserves if it meant I could get my eye in prior to the season starting..... not that that would ever happen in this country.
to shoot birds over my dogs out of season would be a huge draw card for me.
tight sitting birds  primo......


Sorry, I didn't think were against them, but I do think you may think the preserves are "softer" than they are. By this time of the year most preserve birds are more wily than just about any wild bird. For that reason, at this time of year (and as of about 6 weeks ago) I prefer to do my work with wild birds in preference to preserve birds. Just a miscomminication between us on that point I guess.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #154 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 10:09am
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whereami wrote on Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:59am:
Why does nobody do syndicates in NZ?

we dont trust each other Grin


It makes sense though. I was part of a syndicate that shot a 300 acre farm. We raised approx 250 of our own pheasants that were released well before the season began. We shot on average around 70 or 80 of those each year, the other 180 odd either succumbing to natural predators or ending up populating surrounding properties. The farmer was kept happy with a cash payment each year and also got to shoot alongside us. All our birds were walked up, shooting over Springers and Labs.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #155 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 10:12am
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whereami wrote on Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:59am:
Why does nobody do syndicates in NZ?

we dont trust each other Grin

I know of at least two or three that operate this way. Many aren't "registered" though as they stick to limits, cocks only and don't pay except to purchase birds and feed. The landowner doesn't get payment but usually is a syndicate member.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #156 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 10:17am
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that statement wasnt for you Clake it was for anyone reading ,they all know Im the smartest one on these forums so if I agree with preserves then thay can too. Grin

I got no problem with any of this .
to me in my role on this forum ia to help  beginners to get trained up a bit.
we take keen to learn  guys out hunting during the year and help them out a little bit.
My wish is that more hunters learnt more about the species they hunt no more, no less.

genetic traits as far as getting away from preds is on the whole a learnt skill thats all I wanted to get sorted.
only the most basic techniques are inherent.
now I have to haul my ageing carcass up a mountian and home today so I can keep up with these guys come summer.
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #157 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 10:18am
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H and H have got a sydicate going in Taupo.  I think it works quiet well.  If you are into firing heaps of rounds at birds Kainagaroa is the place to be... there are 100's of quail up there at the moment.
  

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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #158 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 10:23am
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whereami wrote on Aug 20th, 2008 at 9:59am:
Why does nobody do syndicates in NZ?

we dont trust each other Grin

I know of at least two or three that operate this way. Many aren't "registered" though as they stick to limits, cocks only and don't pay except to purchase birds and feed. The landowner doesn't get payment but usually is a syndicate member.


Two or three! Not many is it. When you say 'registered' what do you mean? If you set up a syndicate to shoot a property, all chuck in a few $s, buy a couple of hundred poults, release them and shoot the season, why be registered?
  
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Re: Geoff Thomas Driven shoot
Reply #159 - Aug 20th, 2008 at 10:28am
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I think you would have to be registered to shoot more the 3 or 5 limit depending on region.  Thats the trouble the LL are having at the moment.
  

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