Fishnhunt New Zealands main hunting and Fishing Forum. millions of posts on fishing and hunting, dogs, 4x4 vehicles, outdoors and much more Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Normal Topic Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme (Read 1615 times)
JayColli
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 124
Location: Canada
Joined: Jan 16th, 2012
Gender: Male
Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Jan 13th, 2020 at 3:48pm
Print Post  
Hey Folks,

I left NZ about 5 years ago and returned to Canada without ever expecting to post here again but our government is now proposing bans of its own in light of what happened in CHCH last year and I need your help.

I have a meeting scheduled with my anti-firearm MP to discuss the proposed “buy back” (a term I’ll use very loosely) regarding how Canadians will be compensated for their semi-automatic centerfires. What I’d like to know from the good folks here is how were you compensated for the confiscation of your property and do you feel as though you were given a fair market price based on what you handed in?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JayColli
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 124
Location: Canada
Joined: Jan 16th, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #1 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 7:14am
Print Post  
Hey Folks,

I've realized that some shooters may not feel comfortable divulging that information on a publicly-accessible forum but please feel free to msg me if you'd like.

I heard through the grapevine that shooters were typically getting about $200 for an SKS that previously would have been worth $450 from the shops or $350-$400 in good shape secondhand. Does that sound fairly accurate?

Just as a point of interest, the SKS is still available to Canadian shooters and isn't required to be registered but it's our best guess that it will become prohibited if our laws are changed. They are typically available for $350-$250 retail and usually $300 or less secondhand. Given their vintage its impossible to know how many SKS rifles are in circulation in Canada but the number almost certainly exceeds 100,000 as they are less than half the cost of the cheapest AR-15, of which there are over 75,000. If Canadian shooters are offered 50% of the typical value of their SKS rifles (avg. $150 lets say) it will cost the tax payer at least $15,000,000 to buy them all back... Roughly the same as 60 MRI machines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Maddoghunter
Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
Online Forum Guide
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2282
Location: Franklin
Joined: Apr 28th, 2013
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #2 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 8:36am
Print Post  
Whether the buy back is actually useful only time will tell. There’s only 2 things it has achieved.
1. It is now not possible for the average license holder to legally purchase a centrefire semi auto or high capacity magazine.
2. Police can now tell at a glance if a firearm is prohibited.

What percentage of guns have been handed in is anybody’s guess.
A lot of the previously e cat firearms have been moved onto the new license scheme and retained, so if someone thinks this country doesn’t have semi autos they are quite wrong.

Compensation seems to of been fair. The politicians tried to screw the price down, but luckily the police staff running the buyback days were decent about it and erred on the side of the gun owner.
Some guys with heavily modified guns lost out big time though.
Most people were paid 75-95% of retail price, depending on guns condition.

Long story short though, the law had to change, because the police weren’t capable of following previous law.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
XRhunter
Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
Online Forum Guide
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1472
Location: Central North Island
Joined: May 30th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #3 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 10:59am
Print Post  
Jaycolli,
Your last sentence is worth reiterating to your Politician: if they are really interested in saving lives, their money will go a lot further investing in things like MRI's, instead of buying firearms. But point out to him/her that if all they are interested in is virtual signalling, go right on ahead and push a bunch of guns underground, just like happened in Aus and now NZ.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Maddoghunter
Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
Online Forum Guide
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2282
Location: Franklin
Joined: Apr 28th, 2013
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #4 - Jan 14th, 2020 at 12:53pm
Print Post  
Also a couple of other points.
If your govt wants to quickly lower the amount of legally held centrefire semi autos then yes by all means have a buyback, but they need to realise that a lot of people simply take the money and go straight to the gunshop and purchase a legal equivalent of what they had, so it does nothing to lower the amount of guns in a country.

There are tens of thousands of unaccounted for semi autos here in NZ, and the police have pretty much zero idea where to start looking for them. I understand most of them have been hidden in backyards/National Parks etc.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JayColli
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 124
Location: Canada
Joined: Jan 16th, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #5 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 3:04am
Print Post  
Maddoghunter, thanks for the responses. Canadian politicians aren't publicly proposing an all-out ban on semi-auto center fires at this time so neither of the two points achieved by the NZ gun ban would be matched here in Canada. The SKS may become illegal but the Remington 742 would still be perfectly legal for anyone with the most basic firearms license to acquire. It's just another way to highlight how pointless the entire proposal is, especially for a country that shares a nearly 9000km border with the United States.

Interesting to hear that people were getting such high returns on their confiscated firearms. Were firearms only accepted in their entirety or were lots of AR's handed in without hand guards, stocks, ect? In Canada the AR-15 is a "restricted" weapon, meaning it can only be used on a range and has to be registered with the federal government; however, only the lower receiver is registered so the rest of the components such as the upper, barrel or BCG are not bound to it and can be freely bought/sold/traded without any paperwork. I suspect there will be many tens of thousand of lower receivers turned in if a ban happens here and the rest of the components will be left waiting in guns safes across the country for a future government to repeal the ban.

In a nutshell, could you explain to me how the new license system accommodates previously e-cat firearm owners? I was under the impression that an average fella couldn't own a semi-auto center fire unless they have a "legitimate" use for it, such as professional pest control or movie production.

I have a feeling that Canadians who choose, or are forced, to turn in their firearms will do the same this as kiwis - go out and buy more guns with the money they were given - and like I mentioned above, you'll still be able to buy an even more powerful semi-auto center fires than an SKS or AR-15. For unregistered firearms (like the SKS) I suspect compliance to be extremely low and there will be hundreds of thousands of firearms buried in our nation's backyards, parks and forestry lands.

XRhunter, I know where to go digging for some figures on approximately what it costs to purchase and operate a single MRI machine and statistically how many lives it could save over the course of the year. Some very dedicated groups of firearm rights activists in Canada have done their homework and published their findings on how to save hundreds or thousands of lives each year with these tax dollars. It's a legitimate alternative to squandering those tax dollars on a confiscation program that won't be effective anyways because criminals will not be lining up to turn in their firearms.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Maddoghunter
Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
Online Forum Guide
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2282
Location: Franklin
Joined: Apr 28th, 2013
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #6 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 8:34am
Print Post  
Not sure how much you know about previous licensing system here in NZ.
There were categories (cat).
A cat was a general license.
E cat was a license to own or handle an MSSA (military style semi auto).
C is collector.
I think pistol was P (has a very good system whereby can only be used on a range as part of a club).
I think theatrical was B.

The difference between A cat and E cat was whether the rifle had a free standing pistol grip or a high capacity magazine. So if you put a 30 shot mag into an A cat rifle it then became E cat.
It was a ridiculous law that the police were told about but refused to act. It was this loophole that the chch shooter took advantage of.
A lot of the previous E cat license holders that are also collectors have been allowed to transfer their E cat firearms onto their C cat. I don’t have the figures in front of me but I understand it was something like 30%.

The semi autos that were A cat are the ones that are going to bite the police in the arse. They weren’t registered (all the other categories are) and these are the ones that will of been hidden.
The police don’t seem interested in going through previous import permits to get an idea of how many there were, and the media don’t seem interested in speaking to the importers that have the data on what’s been brought in. I’m assuming it is because it’ll make their buyback look like a failure.

Isn’t the SKS a top loading 5 shot? Hardly a good choice for someone wanting to do carnage.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JayColli
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 124
Location: Canada
Joined: Jan 16th, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #7 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 10:40am
Print Post  
Mad dog hunter, thanks for taking the time to expand my understanding of the current situation in NZ. I only held an A-cat when I lived in NZ and didn’t have enough disposable income at the time to look at getting an E-cat so I never paid much attention to it.

Canada has its own poorly thought-out firearms laws, one of which also includes the interchangeability of mags, although it isn’t as severe as the fumble in NZ’s reg. In Canada all semi-auto center fire rifles are limited to 5 rounds (M1 Garand is an exception) but some pistol mags (only limited to 10 rounds) will fit in rifles and can be used legally in the rifles so it is possible to fire 19 rounds from one mag out of an AR-15 but that’s the limit.

Are C-cat licenses still being issued or are those type of license holders and the semi-auto rifles that they possess going to slowly die off? That’s what our government has traditionally done with firearms deemed “too dangerous” for civilians to possess. They can only be transferred amongst special existing license holders and no new licenses are being issued so eventually some lucky fella is going to have a basement full of Uzi’s and FNFAL’s until he dies and then they’ll all be crushed.

The SKS in its stock configuration is a stripper clip fed 10-shot but companies like Tapco do sell aftermarket duckbill mags up to 30-rounders IIRC. Again, limited to 5 rounds in Canada unless using a pistol mag and a specifically-manufactured mag adapter that costs about as much as the rifle itself and even then you’re limited to 10 rounds. Not exactly a pro choice for a blood thirsty lunatic.

Fun fact, in our most recent federal election a new party broke off of one of the two major parties to form the People’s Party of Canada, which allegedly has the legalization of concealed carry permits in their plans. They only got 1.6% of the vote but 2019 was a hard election year for a new party to make a go of it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Maddoghunter
Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
Online Forum Guide
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2282
Location: Franklin
Joined: Apr 28th, 2013
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #8 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 12:18pm
Print Post  
The old C cat is gone.
Now it’s a new code of endorsement on your license.
I don’t know whether they’re allowing any/many new collectors.
Given the way things are heading it’d be a pretty poor investment anyway. If the Green Party get their way the action will be welded up and the firearm will lose 80% of its value.
Collectors here have a lot more than just semi autos. It’s pretty much anything goes for those guys, but security level of both the guns and the owners is quite a bit higher than even the old e cat.
The politicians wanted their collections destroyed as well, if they let it quietly drop off the to do list when they saw the value of collections (many of them are in the millions).
It was then that they allowed a lot of e and c cat guys to transfer their e’s to their c.

So as you can see, anyone that thinks we don’t have scary guns here is in fantasy land. All that’s changed is that the average license holder can no longer buy them, and the guys (e cat) that had an impeccable record have lost their hobby, all because of one Australian and a bunch of senior police that didn’t do their job!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Padawan
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 91
Location: Wellington
Joined: Sep 19th, 2015
Gender: Male
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #9 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 12:37pm
Print Post  
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Radar
Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
Online Forum Guide
*****
Offline


Armed Tramper 😈

Posts: 2041
Location: Cambridge
Joined: Aug 3rd, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #10 - Jan 15th, 2020 at 5:54pm
Print Post  
Jay,
Radar here, I’m a serving cop and was involved heavily in this for my District for 3 months - personally I made good money on the deal for a shitty old .22LR semi😂
Go to the NZ Police Website and have a look around there most of the info is still up online. If you have any questions PM me and I’ll see what I can do.
  

Fate whispers to the warrior
'you cannot withstand the storm',
And the warrior whispers back
' I am the storm'
Toys
Tikka the T3 Hunter 7mm08
Baikal .223 Spartan
Martin Falcon 65lb Compound bow
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JayColli
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 124
Location: Canada
Joined: Jan 16th, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #11 - Jan 16th, 2020 at 2:49am
Print Post  
Maddoghunter, I recently saw Mike Loder's bit on the new licensing scheme/star wars droid naming system - pretty comical.

It sounds like the politicians have setup a system similar to our own that will eventually see these firearms destroyed as collectors pass away... Confiscation through attrition. 60 or 70 years from now there won't be any of these original "scary" guns left in NZ but you can be sure that criminals and lunatics will be 3D printing them in their basements. I know of at least one company in the US (Solid Concepts) that has already 3-D printed a 1911, and that was back in 2013. The technology is out there, its just a matter of time before it becomes affordable.

I read that there was at least one complaint against the CHCH tw*t's character and suitability to own firearms prior to the attack that was never investigated. I also read in an Al Jazeera article that a worshiper at the Linwood Islamic Center returned fire with their own weapon and stifled the attack - any truth to either of these? What happened in Texas recently would lend credit to the effectiveness of the "good guy with a gun" situation but it's hard to discern fact from fiction in the media whirlwind...

Was it possible to buy e-cat mags without an e-cat license previously? I know you had mentioned this a-cat to e-cat loophole in a previous post but I'm not clear on the restrictions that previously surrounded e-cat mags.

Padawan, thanks for the link, I was actually meaning to look that up so having it here at my fingertips is helpful. I cringed as I scrolled through it and saw milsurps like the M1 Garand and the Ljungman. Hopefully there weren't too many of those in NZ.

Someone should really be looking at a way to start exporting these milsurps to Canada while they're still legally held in the hands of collectors...

Radar, thanks will do.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Maddoghunter
Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
Online Forum Guide
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2282
Location: Franklin
Joined: Apr 28th, 2013
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #12 - Jan 16th, 2020 at 7:33am
Print Post  
Yes one guy released a video saying he’d been to the police about the behavior of Tarrant.

I’ve heard rumours about the worshippers returning fire, but I consider that to be rubbish.

You previously didn’t need a firearm license to buy any sort of magazine here.
It was these loopholes that convinced Tarrant to do the shooting here. You can read all that in his manifesto. It’s banned here in NZ but still freely available overseas.

He was apparently issued a license without his referees being interviewed face to face, and without any home visit. If this is true then the person that issued his license should be charged as being an accessory imo.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JayColli
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 124
Location: Canada
Joined: Jan 16th, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #13 - Jan 16th, 2020 at 9:15am
Print Post  
Thanks again Maddoghunter, you replies are always appreciated. The Al Jazeera article I read said something about a worshiper throwing Tarrant's empty shotgun at his vehicle as he drove away... That's probably where the "return fire" story came from.

You don't need a license to buy a magazine here either but magazine capacity has nothing to do with the classification of a firearm in Canada and they're all limited to either 5 or 10 rounds so high-capacity magazines have never been an issue. I'm shocked that magazines were never controlled in NZ given that simply swapping magazines on an AR could change it from an a-cat to an e-cat but I think we've already established that as a massive and gaping loophole that attributed to the tragedy in CHCH.

I'll be honest, when I got my a-cat back in 2013-ish I was surprised at how easy it was. That was a long time ago now but I don't recall being asked to provide any references or having to wait, and there was certainly no home visit. They photocopied my Canadian firearms license and away I went with my little slip of paper that said I was a-cat ready. If I had more money I would have purchased an a-cat AR to hunt with, and by the sounds of things I could have easily purchased 30-round magazines to go with it, albeit illegally.

Are all components of prohibited firearms now also prohibited in NZ? In Canada its only the receiver that's controlled so lots of parts for prohibited firearms such as the AK-47 are still floating around. I'd imagine you guys must be awash in aftermarket bits for newly-prohibited firearms if its a similar situation in NZ.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Maddoghunter
Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
Online Forum Guide
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2282
Location: Franklin
Joined: Apr 28th, 2013
Re: Canadian Seeking Information on “Buy Back” Scheme
Reply #14 - Jan 16th, 2020 at 10:10am
Print Post  
Sounds like you had your Canadian license transferred to NZ.
Tarrant had been refused one in Australia due to criminal convictions.

I can’t be bothered to go into the parts thing at mo. It’s just too weird and confusing lol.
Basically most of the parts are now prohibited but in many instances they’re perfectly legal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint
 

FishnHunt - New Zealands Famous Hunting and Fishing Forum Since 1995 » Powered by YaBB 2.6.11!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2020. All Rights Reserved.
Site Design By Alan Simmons - PRism and all rights are reserved from 1995 and onwards