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muzza
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Democracy
Apr 5th, 2019 at 5:02pm
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Democracy ,as well all knew her , died this week in Wellington. Dont ever forget.
  

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Re: Democracy
Reply #1 - Apr 5th, 2019 at 6:09pm
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Cry Cry Un fortunately we have just been given a lesson in what happens when a tragedy & well meaning people are used to advance an ideological belief.
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #2 - Apr 5th, 2019 at 7:28pm
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Knew her well. RIP old girl Embarrassed
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #3 - Apr 6th, 2019 at 5:39pm
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Just think. We got to where we are a few weeks back after 20 years of informed discussion. All that went out the door. Now the emotional ''high'', or low.. has subsided we are thinking democracy deserved better.

We are all probably poorer for its passing...  Smiley
  

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Re: Democracy
Reply #4 - Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:50am
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I suspect though if you had a referendum most people would support the move as most voters now live in cities and have little contact with the outdoors and firearms. And that would be democracy.
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #5 - Apr 7th, 2019 at 11:35am
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 8:50am:
And that would be democracy.


Incorrect. As a parliamentary democracy with a constitutional monarch we have literally buildings stuffed with layer upon layer of Acts, Legislation,Amendments, case law, rules, regulations ad infinitum as to how our elected representatives shall act. That's democracy. Otherwise, if you follow purely popularist democracy (as we appear to be doing right now) we would have banned gangs long ago. But we haven't. Cause you can't. You have to follow the rules. (or so I was taught Undecided)
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #6 - Apr 7th, 2019 at 3:15pm
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True democracy died out a long time ago,  now the facade weve called democracy for a while now crumbled to the ground.

this has set a precedent for the current and future govt about what you can get away with.


And this is also in memory of common sense which died a while before democracy did.
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #7 - Apr 7th, 2019 at 4:44pm
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Quote:
Incorrect. As a parliamentary democracy with a constitutional monarch we have literally buildings stuffed with layer upon layer of Acts, Legislation,Amendments, case law, rules, regulations ad infinitum as to how our elected representatives shall act. That's democracy. Otherwise, if you follow purely popularist democracy (as we appear to be doing right now) we would have banned gangs long ago. But we haven't. Cause you can't. You have to follow the rules. (or so I was taught

Binding referendums are a form of populist democracy. The choice of MMP is an NZ example. The Brexit vote is another
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #8 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 6:12pm
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We're stuffed. RIP
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #9 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 8:11am
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Chin up, cup-cakes. In many parts of Africa no-one has even heard of the word "Democracy". It just doesn't exist.
  

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Re: Democracy
Reply #10 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 9:26am
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Apr 7th, 2019 at 4:44pm:
Quote:
Incorrect. As a parliamentary democracy with a constitutional monarch we have literally buildings stuffed with layer upon layer of Acts, Legislation,Amendments, case law, rules, regulations ad infinitum as to how our elected representatives shall act. That's democracy. Otherwise, if you follow purely popularist democracy (as we appear to be doing right now) we would have banned gangs long ago. But we haven't. Cause you can't. You have to follow the rules. (or so I was taught

Binding referendums are a form of populist democracy. The choice of MMP is an NZ example. The Brexit vote is another



and our upcoming stoner referendum.

the govt is law change to make thousands of legal law abiding citizens criminals over night then confiscate and prosecute and then next year the want a referendum to stop confiscation and prosecution of thousands of people undertaking illegal activities and make them legit  Huh     backwards govt their only successes will be made from cashing in on terrorism and drug trade
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #11 - Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:31am
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What I find quite most concerning regarding our democratic processes is the point that has only come to light (to me) during the submission process. People from overseas appear to be able to put in submissions and skew data concerning NZ Acts of Parliament!!!! Surely that's akin to foreign interference into another State's affairs Angry Angry Angry So if the Green Party get on the Email list of their fellow Green komrades around the world and tell them to put in pro forma submissions supporting the bill, the finds will so 60% support for the bill
But dig a bit deeper and you'll see most all the submissions around 4kb in size were proforma submissions supporting the bill, and contained Zero personal information other than name, whereas most all submissions of a much greater kb size contained (mostly) well worded submissions on how them and their family would be affected by the rushed passing of this bill.
Smells big time.
I would have expected a minimum of proof of citizenship/residency to be able to have ANY say so on domestic politics. Experts, well they should have been identified formally as experts.  Just saying.
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #12 - Apr 11th, 2019 at 10:52pm
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yes, I pretty much point this out in my submission. Also stated that there was every chance that no firearms licence owner would ever vote labour ever again. But, I suppose with all the 'feel good' factor that Taxinder has baffled these non firearms licence people into she probably doesn't care
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #13 - Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:26pm
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Also stated that there was every chance that no firearms licence owner would ever vote labour ever again.


I suspect the new law only affects a small percentage of firearms owners
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #14 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:00pm
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All the other restrictions that will come into force later this year,will though....they will affect every single license holder.
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #15 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:50pm
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Democracy is not the only thing that died.  Also freedom of speech and the right to privacy (due to increased surveillance powers that are sure to come).

I think we should also acknowledge the 50 innocent members of our community that died as this is the biggest tragedy.

We can't do much about the 50 dead people other than ensure that the madman who did it never sees the light of day and support the relatives of the victims.  The other things that died are under our control.

Looking at the history in Australia when John Howard did the same thing one thing that happened in was that enough voters felt disenfranchised to support a minor party (the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers party).  Minor parties can hold the balance of power under MMP.

I don't think we are ever getting our semi auto center-fires back but we can at least hope that a political party emerges who can represent us.

It's also worth not forgetting two organisations that threw us under the bus - Fish and Fame and Hunting and Fishing.  I think F&G were just relieved that 5 shot semi auto shotguns survives and H&F just saw dollar signs for all the replacement rifles.
  

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Re: Democracy
Reply #16 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 9:46pm
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I've been mourning that mythical unicorn a few years now, and then I realised "hey don't be sad, something can't die if it never was". In an odd way it is nice to see it becoming more obvious by the year. Emperor is starkers.

Had a laugh at the concept of the post though, nicely done!!  Grin  Cheesy
  
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Re: Democracy
Reply #17 - Apr 18th, 2019 at 8:12am
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MassiveAttack wrote on Apr 15th, 2019 at 7:50pm:
...

It's also worth not forgetting two organisations that threw us under the bus - Fish and Fame and Hunting and Fishing.  I think F&G were just relieved that 5 shot semi auto shotguns survives and H&F just saw dollar signs for all the replacement rifles.


You're bang on there. I won't buy items from Hunting and Fishing stores now. Highly doubt it'll make any difference to them with the amount I spend a year though  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Democracy
Reply #18 - Apr 21st, 2019 at 10:59am
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Gazcan wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 8:11am:
Chin up, cup-cakes. In many parts of Africa no-one has even heard of the word "Democracy". It just doesn't exist.


Yes they have. Its looking down the barrel of a gun.
  

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Re: Democracy
Reply #19 - Apr 21st, 2019 at 11:42am
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XRhunter wrote on Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:31am:
What I find quite most concerning regarding our democratic processes is the point that has only come to light (to me) during the submission process. People from overseas appear to be able to put in submissions and skew data concerning NZ Acts of Parliament!!!! Surely that's akin to foreign interference into another State's affairs Angry Angry Angry So if the Green Party get on the Email list of their fellow Green komrades around the world and tell them to put in pro forma submissions supporting the bill, the finds will so 60% support for the bill
But dig a bit deeper and you'll see most all the submissions around 4kb in size were proforma submissions supporting the bill, and contained Zero personal information other than name, whereas most all submissions of a much greater kb size contained (mostly) well worded submissions on how them and their family would be affected by the rushed passing of this bill.
Smells big time.
I would have expected a minimum of proof of citizenship/residency to be able to have ANY say so on domestic politics. Experts, well they should have been identified formally as experts.  Just saying.


Theres the difference. In one sweep of the broom they are removing a personal freedom, and in the next they are adding a personal freedom. (choice).

When I think about it, thats a lot of what Politicians do isnt it. They have to do something all day in Parliament. The obvious thing is make new legislation.  Grin 

Reminds me of when I was managing properties. When the owners arrived for their annual holiday they always wanted to leave their mark. You know, leave something behind or make an improvment as it was their property and they wanted to mark the patch..

Easiest visible thing to do was pull out the chainsaw and cut down a tree. They certainly made a difference and someone else got to clean up the mess.  Grin
  

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Re: Democracy
Reply #20 - Jul 12th, 2019 at 4:27pm
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Apr 12th, 2019 at 9:26pm:
Quote:
Also stated that there was every chance that no firearms licence owner would ever vote labour ever again.


I suspect the new law only affects a small percentage of firearms owners

  Id have to agree,its more about being seen to take some form of action and not admit the system as a whole needs a rethink ,anything else is just for votes .
  
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