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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) 1080 Works (Read 6802 times)
Tararua Hunter
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Re: 1080 Works
Reply #150 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:03pm
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sidney wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 3:38pm:
While he may lack evidence of the above TH... basic economic theory appears to be on his side...

plenty of times conservationists have used the same principles to accuse trappers of "farming" the resource as well as pig hunters, or the rest of us when it suits them.

provide an incentive and people will naturally respond to it...  its basic human behaviour..

personally I don't buy the "above all that ethos" you promote for the conservation movement or its contractors - by trying to ignore basic human behaviour or reality..


Sidney, the contention that like of DOC have a policy of keeping threatened species at risk, just to perpetuate pest control work has no factual basis that I can see
DOC has targets for pest control, and as far as I can see, thosetargets are calculated to get the relief from predation within the cycle of control
pest control is SUSTAINED.
eradication isn't control
and sustained control is not the (de;liberate) keeping of species at constant risk of extinction. Extinction it may be a result, because the method was never going to work
DOC eastimates that get x years of relief from predation from y population reduction. that reduction doesn't have to be near 100 percent.
its about the wildlife. eradication isn't possible with current methods
(mainland)
so if say one breeding season in say 2 or 3 years is adequate to get a sustainable population of birds, then a further predator reduction (say below 85percent) may be nice but not change the sustainability of rats wildlife. rats are going to repopulate to pre poison levels anyway, and all that matters is the species survival
That isn't perpetuating pest control that keeps birds on verge of extinction. (as marty suggests)  its facing reality of pest control

The mesure of pest control success, is in what are the benefits to the wildlife

Speculating thatthere is some undisclosed aim to to simply perpetuate control at levels that don't remove the risk of extinction is utter nonsense.
where that is possible, from what I see that aim is being sought.
But in al ot of cases, its accept  ongoing sustained control, because that is the only viable approach
control is forever. be it annually, 2,3,4 or 5 yearly.
that's why its called control, not eradication.
and is why the NZFS dropped the term when they concluded eradication was never achievable


its no different to keeping the lawn looking good Smiley
  
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headcase
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Re: 1080 Works
Reply #151 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:42pm
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I can agree with all of that TH. What you have described is the reality. I see it clearly in the microcosm of my own work,  but was lead to believe we were aiming to be predator free. Are we in our thinking in a transitional phase between what was achievable untill now ,   or is there a schism as to what is achievable in reality and what we are told is achievable as we head toward 2050.

Forget about allegations of deliberate fraud in perpetuating the cycle of pest and destruction. No-one in doc is seriously doing this deliberately.

We need to move forward without the friction between to factions.


 





  

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Re: 1080 Works
Reply #152 - Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:55pm
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headcase wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:42pm:
I can agree with all of that TH. What you have described is the reality. I see it clearly in the microcosm of my own work,  but was lead to believe we were aiming to be predator free.

Are we in our thinking in a transitional phase between what was achievable untill now ,   or is there a schism as to what is achievable in reality and what we are told is achievable as we head toward 2050.  



as far as I know, HC, most predator control is dealing with immediate problems. the targets arnt eradication and repeat of the control cycle is schooled,scheduled  however many years apart it is.
predator free is another (huge) step up, which has yet to be revealed how. right now, it seems to be research
  
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Re: 1080 Works
Reply #153 - Jan 14th, 2019 at 8:19am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 5:03pm:
sidney wrote on Jan 11th, 2019 at 3:38pm:
While he may lack evidence of the above TH... basic economic theory appears to be on his side...

plenty of times conservationists have used the same principles to accuse trappers of "farming" the resource as well as pig hunters, or the rest of us when it suits them.

provide an incentive and people will naturally respond to it...  its basic human behaviour..

personally I don't buy the "above all that ethos" you promote for the conservation movement or its contractors - by trying to ignore basic human behaviour or reality..


Sidney, the contention that like of DOC have a policy of keeping threatened species at risk, just to perpetuate pest control work has no factual basis that I can see
DOC has targets for pest control, and as far as I can see, thosetargets are calculated to get the relief from predation within the cycle of control
pest control is SUSTAINED.
eradication isn't control
and sustained control is not the (de;liberate) keeping of species at constant risk of extinction. Extinction it may be a result, because the method was never going to work
DOC eastimates that get x years of relief from predation from y population reduction. that reduction doesn't have to be near 100 percent.
its about the wildlife. eradication isn't possible with current methods
(mainland)
so if say one breeding season in say 2 or 3 years is adequate to get a sustainable population of birds, then a further predator reduction (say below 85percent) may be nice but not change the sustainability of rats wildlife. rats are going to repopulate to pre poison levels anyway, and all that matters is the species survival
That isn't perpetuating pest control that keeps birds on verge of extinction. (as marty suggests)  its facing reality of pest control

The mesure of pest control success, is in what are the benefits to the wildlife

Speculating thatthere is some undisclosed aim to to simply perpetuate control at levels that don't remove the risk of extinction is utter nonsense.
where that is possible, from what I see that aim is being sought.
But in al ot of cases, its accept  ongoing sustained control, because that is the only viable approach
control is forever. be it annually, 2,3,4 or 5 yearly.
that's why its called control, not eradication.
and is why the NZFS dropped the term when they concluded eradication was never achievable


its no different to keeping the lawn looking good Smiley


So this is all lies https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/predator-free-2050/ ; ?

I believe you, but just wanted to point that out.
  
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Re: 1080 Works
Reply #154 - Jan 14th, 2019 at 2:00pm
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There exists a core difference between outdoorsmen and women compared to DoC, Forest and Bird, associated extreme greens and PFNZ et al. That difference is the categorization of game animals and fish as being included in "pest control" plans and programs. Get rid of that awful attitude being promoted by DoC and PFNZ and Forest and Bird now and there will follow a much more positive and cooperative approach by everyone who has an interest in the NZ outdoor fishing and hunting communities.
  

If you don't know it all, then you don't know what you don't know.
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Re: 1080 Works
Reply #155 - Jan 14th, 2019 at 4:44pm
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Page Not found, Vulcan?
  
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Re: 1080 Works
Reply #156 - Jan 14th, 2019 at 4:46pm
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huntnfish wrote on Jan 14th, 2019 at 2:00pm:
There exists a core difference between outdoorsmen and women compared to DoC, Forest and Bird, associated extreme greens and PFNZ et al. That difference is the categorization of game animals and fish as being included in "pest control" plans and programs. Get rid of that awful attitude being promoted by DoC and PFNZ and Forest and Bird now and there will follow a much more positive and cooperative approach by everyone who has an interest in the NZ outdoor fishing and hunting communities.


Huntnfish, there was an Associate minister of conservation that actually believed in the "Game" word. Andfor all the politics of him and the rest, And was making some progress.
But he isn't about any more
  
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Re: 1080 Works
Reply #157 - Jan 14th, 2019 at 6:58pm
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We need a heap more with the "right" attitude.
  

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