Fishnhunt New Zealands main hunting and Fishing Forum. millions of posts on fishing and hunting, dogs, 4x4 vehicles, outdoors and much more Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Normal Topic Hunters vs DOC...You decide (Read 955 times)
Marty Foote
Forum Senior
****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 536
Joined: Jun 29th, 2014
Gender: Male
Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Nov 5th, 2018 at 6:51pm
Print Post  
This is the latest email, I have written, to the newest person DOC has put up to me

Connie Norgate
Acting Director of Operations
Lower North Island
DOC

Dear Connie,

Thank you for your prompt response (attached), however, your response does not address the current issues. I will go through the current issues that your response is, very clearly, trying to dodge.

1) My request for information is for all the documentation, that was created during the aerial 1080 consent process that OSPRI/TBFree/AHB would have had to go through, in order to obtain consent to apply aerial 1080 to Aorangi Forest Park. I have received the documentation for the 2017 operation consenting process, however, I have not received the documentation for the 2014 aerial 1080 operation or the 2-3 aerial 1080 operations that took place previous, to this latest round of three aerial 1080 operations, set at three yearly intervals, with the last operation due to take place in 2020.

The 2017 operation consent documentation clearly showed that aerial 1080 had failed to reach the possum density target, set for the 2014 aerial 1080 operation, and I am expecting that the previous documentation will also show problems with aerial 1080 being able to control possums to the population density targets set by OSPRI and DOC.

The request for the information is not to obtain OSPRI held documents, it is a request to obtain documents held by DOC, some of which would have been submitted, to DOC, by OSPRI.

2) My second request is for the fully costed out budget, that Bill Fleury was quoting from, that shows that multi-species ground control can be expected to cost $1,000/ha. This is an absurd costing and bears no resemblance to any prices that an experienced output contractor would submit and it is critical that DOC fronts up with the fully budgeted costings so that everyone knows what the information DOC is actually using when DOC is making budgeting decisions.

3) You have stated:

"Your current request sought more information regarding how the department puts pest control work out for tender and opportunities for you to trial ground control techniques in Wairarapa." 

This has already been resolved, earlier this year, as evidenced by Amber Bill's comments written on 29 March 2018:

"As we discussed over the phone, your concern that ground control options are “rejected at step 6 as there are no best practice documents” is not correct. The SOP forms the basis of a four day training programme for DOC staff engaged in planning pest control operations. Staff are taught that choosing possible control methods does not preclude a method if there is no best practise written."

What Amber Bill and I were talking about is the ability of output contractors to submit proposals before the decision is made. This was one of the issues discussed at the meeting and I asked Kathy Houkamau if she was prepared to release information, needed before an output proposal could be developed, before the SOP shortlisting step, to which Kathy replied, that she refused to release information, before the SOP shortlisting step, and would only release information after the control method decision is made. This situation ensures that only aerial 1080 will be considered, over many areas, and alternative output contract proposals will never be considered, even through the DOC SOP Operational Planning process allows for the consideration of output contract proposals at step 6 of the preparation phase.

4) Your next paragraph states:

"If the Department does intend to resource work via contractors, it will advertise those contracts on the GETS website and contracts will be awarded under a competitive tendering regime among tenderers who meet our standards."


This is the second step in the two steps we are talking about, with the first step being deciding what method of control will be used, which is step 6 of the preparation phase, and the second step being how the work will be tendered out, which happens at step 5 of the pre-operational phase. To give you an idea how far apart these two steps are: Step 6, of the preparation phase, is written on page 15 of the SOP, while, Step 5, of the pre-operational phase, is written on page 44 of the SOP. There are 29 pages of the SOP to work through, from the time of shortlisting to the time of issuing tenders. To try to link these two, totally separate steps together, as DOC is trying to do, doesn't work, unless there has been a predetermined decision to use aerial 1080 and no other control method proposals are ever going to be considered.

5) You state:

"Most of our small mammal pest control work in the Lower North Island is either maintenance (carried out by staff or volunteers or temporary employees) or existing contractors or large scale aerial 1080 work targeting rats, possums and stoats."


These options are what we already know are in place and how DOC is currently carrying out animal control work. The areas I have been discussing, with DOC over the last two years, are not the smaller areas where DOC is currently using ground control options, it is the large scale areas where DOC is refusing to consider any other options that will compete with aerial 1080.

6) You state:

"The Lower North Island region is currently not resourced to manage new trials of proposed alternatives to aerial 1080, noting that there is an estimated 30 to 100-fold difference in per hectare costs between aerial 1080 and effective ground-based control targeting the suite of pests affected by aerial 1080 baiting."

This statement ties in with point 2 above, with the quoting of absurdly high ground control costs, that effectively mean that ground control is costing between $300 - $1,000/ha/year, for ongoing ground control, or, $900 - $3,000/ha, for a one-off initial ground control operation, with DOC refusing to release any of the costed budgets to justify, both, the low aerial 1080 costs and the absurdly high ground control costs (The ground control costings, I have used, have been worked out using $30/ha for an aerial 1080 operation, with the true aerial 1080 cost being higher than $30/ha, and three yearly 1080 applications for ongoing control, combined with your "30 to 100-fold difference" between aerial 1080 and ground control costings).

7) You state:

"I would like to point out that I do not tolerate people shouting at my staff and I have instructed them to immediately end any calls where people raise their voice."

I would, very politely, suggest that you instruct your staff to stop being untruthful, when they are talking to people that your staff know do know what the truth is, and you may find that people stop becoming angry, at your staff, as people do not normally become angry when they are treated in a reasonable and respectful manner. I assume you are talking about the end of the meeting, as well as a previous telephone conversation, where I was being personally belittled and the DOC staff knew they were telling me things that were not true, as was evidenced by information they had already given me. I was the one that terminated the meeting, as I realised that the DOC staff had been instructed to deliberately make it impossible to have a reasonable conversation, with the only solution being to end the meeting and work through other avenues to try to get DOC staff to behave in a reasonable manner, in a way that actually addresses the issues, so that the issues can be resolved in a satisfactory fashion.

I, very respectfully, ask you to get on with the job of ensuring I receive all the information, I have requested, so that we can move on with the negotiations that have been under way for over two years now.

Kind regards....Martin Foote
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
awaterelad
Donor Member
*****
Offline


bloody work, i should
be hunting

Posts: 305
Location: elsthorpe
Joined: Aug 16th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #1 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 7:20pm
Print Post  
gd effort, lets hope you get the info your asking for, shouldnt be that difficult, they are a govt organisation spending tax payers money after all, and out of honest transparency they should be justifying the budget being spent, but alas the slippery fckers dont want to give the game up do they
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marty Foote
Forum Senior
****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 536
Joined: Jun 29th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #2 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 8:18pm
Print Post  
Hi Stephen and Alan,

Very nice move...To make sure that a properly written email was sent to the political post, by you guys, from the hunting post, without any note, to the hunting post, that the post had been moved without waiting for any complaints from the likes of TH and BC.

Normally, you wait until the likes of TH and BC complain, publicly, before you move any of my threads...I guess that you guys have agreed, between yourselves, that a public complaint isn't necessary and you can control the information flow in any way you like, with the benefit and promotion of people like TH and BC that don't like the ideas that I am promoting and dealing to.

Cheers...Marty

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
davflaws
Donor Member
*****
Offline


NOT Training for SAS Selection

Posts: 3098
Location: Whangarei
Joined: Nov 10th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #3 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:49am
Print Post  
Kia ora Marty

I don't think that a copy of your communication to DOC belongs anywhere else but this thread, though you perhaps might like to amend the title.

I think it is a shame that you can't seem to help personalising everything that happens. I was right with you in your original post until you went off into a rave justifying shouting at DOC staff. I think you would have been much better to have simply apologised and returned to the subject of the information you want.

Similarly - a post got moved and you weren't consulted. And you respond with some shit about Tararua Hunter and BC - both of whom disagree with you over some matters, but who treat you with respect (at least as far as I can see).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
headcase
Global Forum Guide
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Former Youngest Person
in the World

Posts: 25255
Location: Ponsenby
Joined: Jul 9th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #4 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:16pm
Print Post  
Yer pity the meeting ended like that.  Worst outcome possible apart from a fist fight. Back to the drawing board them.

What you need is to have a respected professional negotiator sit at the round table with you and conduct a frank discussion on the topic on your behalf. I have no doubt you can carry out the work on the ground but you are not suited to negotiate and reach an agreement. There is no shame in this. We all have our strengths and that is what you must play too. 

The whole topic at a discussions level with DOC has become too emotional and personal for you so find someone who can negotiate on your behalf.  Smiley
  

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Marty Foote
Forum Senior
****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 536
Joined: Jun 29th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #5 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 3:43pm
Print Post  
headcase wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:16pm:
Yer pity the meeting ended like that.  Worst outcome possible apart from a fist fight. Back to the drawing board them.

What you need is to have a respected professional negotiator sit at the round table with you and conduct a frank discussion on the topic on your behalf. I have no doubt you can carry out the work on the ground but you are not suited to negotiate and reach an agreement. There is no shame in this. We all have our strengths and that is what you must play too. 

The whole topic at a discussions level with DOC has become too emotional and personal for you so find someone who can negotiate on your behalf.  Smiley


If you think it is a personality clash, you should do some math and work out some per hectare costs:

The Mackenzie Basin 310,000 ha DOC run trapping operation = $14.50/ha ($4.5 million in total).

Without me even putting in a price, for the same sort of operation, DOC has estimated that my price would be $1,000/ha. It doesn't matter that I have stated that my price would be a lot cheaper than $1,000/ha, DOC is still making statements that I would charge $1,000/ha to do the work.

We are not talking personalities here, we are talking about DOC protecting a wild animal control monopoly and DOC is prepared to make absurd and conflicting statements to do so.

Are there any hunting contractors, in the Mackenzie Basin area, that are contributing to these threads?

Combine the extreme pricing quotes, from DOC, with the fact that DOC has admitted that DOC is refusing to follow DOC's own SOP processes. Anyone that defends DOC's actions, as being reasonable is, either, not paying attention, or, is benefiting from the current monopolistic status-quo.

You will remember that Jan Wright, the then PCE and now heading up the biggest ever ground control operation, has been quoted as saying that ground control is too expensive compared to aerial 1080, and yet she is now backing a ground control proposal that she says is costing half of the low 1080 prices that DOC has been publicly quoting.

You will also note that another high country farming area (Molesworth Station) is being treated with 1080 and the arguments for 1080 is that 1080 is the most cost effective option and trapping would be too expensive.

The only thing that is consistently coming through is that DOC has decided that there will be no commercial competition allowed for any wild animal control work on the DOC estate.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vulcan
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2097
Location: Wellington
Joined: Jun 24th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #6 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 5:47pm
Print Post  
Marty, if you are being belittled or abused in any way you are perfectly within your right to record your discussions, meetings, or phone calls. It is your legal right in NZ.

This will make it easier for you to make your case, and perhaps remind yourself to keep calm (always has worked for me).

Nothing creates a stink like facts and recordings (see Jamie Lee Ross)  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
huntnfish
Forum Senior
****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 915
Location: Waikato, near Taupo
Joined: Sep 10th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #7 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 7:38pm
Print Post  
Marty; There are stringent regulations governing Parliamentary AND Public Service Codes of Conduct. These codes specifically require disclosure and honesty. Gather your evidence and make a formal complaint to the State Services Commissioner.
You may become part of an avalanch as regards the conduct of DoC and TB Free / OSPRI and AHB.
  

If you don't know it all, then you don't know what you don't know.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
davflaws
Donor Member
*****
Offline


NOT Training for SAS Selection

Posts: 3098
Location: Whangarei
Joined: Nov 10th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #8 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 5:00pm
Print Post  
Marty Foote wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 3:43pm:
If you think it is a personality clash, you should do some math and work out some per hectare costs:



I'm sure your math is right, but that hasn't made a blind bit of difference so far and my guess is that DOC will continue to obstruct and ignore you as far as they are able to so long as you keep doing what you are doing.

There are real issues around cost per hectare, effectiveness, sampling, transparency blah de blah. But there is also the way you behave. If you can't change that, either by taking a completely different attitude, or by getting someone to negotiate on your behalf (as hc suggested), nothing much will change.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marty Foote
Forum Senior
****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 536
Joined: Jun 29th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #9 - Nov 11th, 2018 at 9:22am
Print Post  
davflaws wrote on Nov 10th, 2018 at 5:00pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 3:43pm:
If you think it is a personality clash, you should do some math and work out some per hectare costs:



I'm sure your math is right, but that hasn't made a blind bit of difference so far and my guess is that DOC will continue to obstruct and ignore you as far as they are able to so long as you keep doing what you are doing.

There are real issues around cost per hectare, effectiveness, sampling, transparency blah de blah. But there is also the way you behave. If you can't change that, either by taking a completely different attitude, or by getting someone to negotiate on your behalf (as hc suggested), nothing much will change.


Fair comments. I am a good trapper and I have never professed to behave in a politically correct way, however, I have always behaved in an honest manner and I have never indulged in fudging the truth, or, telling outright lies.

I worked out, many years ago, that when people start playing the man, and refuse to deal with the information that is in play, you know that they know their position cannot be defended without discrediting the character of their opposition.

Fortunately, the facts being made publicly available mean that even the most ardent character assassins are unable to continue to ignore the factual arguments.

You are right, that someone else, with a personality better suited to dealing with bureaucrats, should be be doing what I am doing, unfortunately, the people, better qualified than I, that have been negotiating, have ended up making compromises that ensure the entrenchment of the current 1080 industry position and have refused to promote the only proven alternative to aerial 1080.

All is not lost and nasty conflict, there has also been positive stuff happening and I am hopeful that I will be able to bow out of this public debating profile and get on with the job of trapping in way that will enhance what all of us say we want. I dare say, that the more patient of the pro-hunting negotiators will eventually work out that they can pick up the pro-trapping argument without having problems negotiating for the other aspects, like large game hunting, and a more comprehensive, all inclusive, approach can be made to long term wild animal management in our native forests.

I have always been prepared to take a back seat, work behind the scenes to help any public negotiators and I am prepared to help any future negotiators with information, experience and advice when they eventually step forward to take up the reins.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
headcase
Global Forum Guide
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Former Youngest Person
in the World

Posts: 25255
Location: Ponsenby
Joined: Jul 9th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #10 - Nov 11th, 2018 at 11:35am
Print Post  
Well that was well written.  Smiley
  

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Salmoner
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I love salmon fishin

Posts: 3600
Location: Darfield
Joined: Feb 19th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #11 - Nov 11th, 2018 at 4:43pm
Print Post  
Marty Foote wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 3:43pm:
headcase wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:16pm:
Yer pity the meeting ended like that.  Worst outcome possible apart from a fist fight. Back to the drawing board them.

What you need is to have a respected professional negotiator sit at the round table with you and conduct a frank discussion on the topic on your behalf. I have no doubt you can carry out the work on the ground but you are not suited to negotiate and reach an agreement. There is no shame in this. We all have our strengths and that is what you must play too. 

The whole topic at a discussions level with DOC has become too emotional and personal for you so find someone who can negotiate on your behalf.  Smiley


If you think it is a personality clash, you should do some math and work out some per hectare costs:

The Mackenzie Basin 310,000 ha DOC run trapping operation = $14.50/ha ($4.5 million in total).

Without me even putting in a price, for the same sort of operation, DOC has estimated that my price would be $1,000/ha. It doesn't matter that I have stated that my price would be a lot cheaper than $1,000/ha, DOC is still making statements that I would charge $1,000/ha to do the work.

We are not talking personalities here, we are talking about DOC protecting a wild animal control monopoly and DOC is prepared to make absurd and conflicting statements to do so.

Are there any hunting contractors, in the Mackenzie Basin area, that are contributing to these threads?

Combine the extreme pricing quotes, from DOC, with the fact that DOC has admitted that DOC is refusing to follow DOC's own SOP processes. Anyone that defends DOC's actions, as being reasonable is, either, not paying attention, or, is benefiting from the current monopolistic status-quo.

You will remember that Jan Wright, the then PCE and now heading up the biggest ever ground control operation, has been quoted as saying that ground control is too expensive compared to aerial 1080, and yet she is now backing a ground control proposal that she says is costing half of the low 1080 prices that DOC has been publicly quoting.

You will also note that another high country farming area (Molesworth Station) is being treated with 1080 and the arguments for 1080 is that 1080 is the most cost effective option and trapping would be too expensive.

The only thing that is consistently coming through is that DOC has decided that there will be no commercial competition allowed for any wild animal control work on the DOC estate.


I think you will find it is a 20 year operation and that $4.5 million is only funding for the first 3 years and not the total as you may of inferred ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marty Foote
Forum Senior
****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 536
Joined: Jun 29th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #12 - Nov 11th, 2018 at 6:04pm
Print Post  
Salmoner wrote on Nov 11th, 2018 at 4:43pm:
I think you will find it is a 20 year operation and that $4.5 million is only funding for the first 3 years and not the total as you may of inferred ?


You are quite right that DOC and Jan Wright are only talking about the first 3 years of an ongoing operation planned over 20 years.

You will also be very aware that DOC has stated that initial ground operations are always more expensive than aerial 1080 operations.

My reading of what is going on, is that there has been a budget allocation of $14.50/ha, over the first 3 years, which equates to just under $5/ha/yr. This includes the initial wild animal control work that has, up until now, been used, by DOC and Jan Wright, as an excuse to only use aerial 1080, with the quoted aerial 1080 application costing anything between $8 - $90/ha, with the normally quoted aerial 1080 price being between $16 - $32/ha, and this has been used as an excuse to stop the tendering of long term output trapping contracts as trappers are deemed "more expensive than aerial 1080".

There has to be some sort of consistency to, both, the time frames for the operational planning and the actual costs that are being budgeted, and expended, if the general hunting fraternity, as well as the general NZ Public, are to be able to make informed decisions about what is being promoted and what is going on.

Don't get me wrong, I fully applaud DOC and Jan Wright promoting the Mackenzie Basin ground control operation, all I want to know is why they are allocating such a low budget, when compared to another budget used when DOC was not wanting to negotiate with an experienced output trapper. The differences are substantial. after all, within one week, DOC quoted my trapping work as to be budgeted at a cost $1,000/ha, without any input from me, and Jan Wright's trapping work is being budgeted to cost $14.50/ha, with both of us heading up very similar final wild animal output targets.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gonehuntin
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1918
Location: Lost
Joined: Nov 22nd, 2012
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #13 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 3:47pm
Print Post  
Marty Foote wrote on Nov 11th, 2018 at 6:04pm:
Salmoner wrote on Nov 11th, 2018 at 4:43pm:
I think you will find it is a 20 year operation and that $4.5 million is only funding for the first 3 years and not the total as you may of inferred ?


You are quite right that DOC and Jan Wright are only talking about the first 3 years of an ongoing operation planned over 20 years.

You will also be very aware that DOC has stated that initial ground operations are always more expensive than aerial 1080 operations.

My reading of what is going on, is that there has been a budget allocation of $14.50/ha, over the first 3 years, which equates to just under $5/ha/yr. This includes the initial wild animal control work that has, up until now, been used, by DOC and Jan Wright, as an excuse to only use aerial 1080, with the quoted aerial 1080 application costing anything between $8 - $90/ha, with the normally quoted aerial 1080 price being between $16 - $32/ha, and this has been used as an excuse to stop the tendering of long term output trapping contracts as trappers are deemed "more expensive than aerial 1080".

There has to be some sort of consistency to, both, the time frames for the operational planning and the actual costs that are being budgeted, and expended, if the general hunting fraternity, as well as the general NZ Public, are to be able to make informed decisions about what is being promoted and what is going on.

Don't get me wrong, I fully applaud DOC and Jan Wright promoting the Mackenzie Basin ground control operation, all I want to know is why they are allocating such a low budget, when compared to another budget used when DOC was not wanting to negotiate with an experienced output trapper. The differences are substantial. after all, within one week, DOC quoted my trapping work as to be budgeted at a cost $1,000/ha, without any input from me, and Jan Wright's trapping work is being budgeted to cost $14.50/ha, with both of us heading up very similar final wild animal output targets.




a small army of volunteers helps bring costs down, did you take that into consideration?
An surely the conspirisist within is thinking they want it to fail to prove 1080 is the only way Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
headcase
Global Forum Guide
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Former Youngest Person
in the World

Posts: 25255
Location: Ponsenby
Joined: Jul 9th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Hunters vs DOC...You decide
Reply #14 - Nov 12th, 2018 at 6:52pm
Print Post  
Most of that money will be spent trapping in braided river beds. Not step sided bush clad hills.
  

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint
 

FishnHunt - New Zealands Famous Hunting and Fishing Forum Since 1995 » Powered by YaBB 2.6.11!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2018. All Rights Reserved.
Site Design By Alan Simmons - PRism and all rights are reserved from 1995 and onwards