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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers. (Read 3322 times)
Greg Duley, NZ Hunter
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #15 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:08am
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Shaun, they are DoC's guidelines, not that I have ever seen them personally. They were brought up in the TLG meeting I attended for the Foundation, and in many discussions about tahr management. The issue with orphaning bull kids that then never grow a trophy head is a very real one, and I have seen this becoming more prevalent myself over the years that tahr have been culled. Far too many bulls that have had a shit first year. DoC obviously don't care about that, but we as hunters certainly should. Of the acceptable population of tahr that are left browsing vegetation after a sensible management regime has been installed, what ever that may eventually be, we want the bulls to at least be capable of growing a trophy head.
Yes, we certainly are pushing for equal access for recreational hunters, and everybody seems to accept that this will happen.
February and March are certainly months that are being discussed as possible for organised hunts, as by then the majority of the kids are up and running with their parents and are able to be shot, ideally first then the nanny next. The issue in January as its explained to me is a lot of the kids are stashed in the bushes, and not visible to the hunter.
Any culling in any of these months will need to be carefully managed, which was far more possible with the TIG organised culls of the past, rather than the much larger ballot type hunts currently being discussed with many more parties over a much longer time frame.
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #16 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:32am
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:08am:
Shaun, they are DoC's guidelines, not that I have ever seen them personally. They were brought up in the TLG meeting I attended for the Foundation, and in many discussions about tahr management. The issue with orphaning bull kids that then never grow a trophy head is a very real one, and I have seen this becoming more prevalent myself over the years that tahr have been culled. Far too many bulls that have had a shit first year. DoC obviously don't care about that, but we as hunters certainly should. Of the acceptable population of tahr that are left browsing vegetation after a sensible management regime has been installed, what ever that may eventually be, we want the bulls to at least be capable of growing a trophy head.
Yes, we certainly are pushing for equal access for recreational hunters, and everybody seems to accept that this will happen.
February and March are certainly months that are being discussed as possible for organised hunts, as by then the majority of the kids are up and running with their parents and are able to be shot, ideally first then the nanny next. The issue in January as its explained to me is a lot of the kids are stashed in the bushes, and not visible to the hunter.
Any culling in any of these months will need to be carefully managed, which was far more possible with the TIG organised culls of the past, rather than the much larger ballot type hunts currently being discussed with many more parties over a much longer time frame.


Speaking to you as a rec hunter rep on NZTF wouldn't it be responsible to see these new guidelines from DOC.....seriously.

NZTF took a lot of money off us rec hunters.

Does this new rule extend to WARO harvest? Is there any requirement in a WARO concession for stags only harvest during the months from December to March while hinds have fawns at foot.  Anaecdotally about 40% of the WARO harvest over that period is hinds.

Some people are going to face a serious credibility issue over this position, don't you think?

As far as protecting infant bulls from early weaning and its impact on operational efficiency you are kidding me. Not every NEW ZEALAND hunter wants a 13' bull. The current culling regime which includes DOC SAD culls and Rec hunter culls occurring in Feb has been ongoing since 1993 and certainly hasn't impacted the number of bulls available. Aren't we are being far too precious?

I am being reasonable here, these are entirely reasonable questions.
Could you and other reps please take these points back to the table.
  

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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #17 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:37am
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But wether you want to shoot a trophy or not, surely for many reasons targeting females as a management tool is desirable as well as lessening the conflict with user groups?
Before this current situation came along, I understood it was what most of us rec hunters were pushing for as sound management?
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #18 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:42am
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Incredibly frustrating, especially when hunters are trying to engage in a constructive way.  Sad
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #19 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:43am
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Good point Shaun,  I think we are over emphasising the importance of the "size" of the  trophies.

Numbers need to be reduced plain and simple and this need to be done quickly.
  
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #20 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 1:11pm
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Trophies are an important part of the tahr management. Without trophies there is no financial side to the argument, and that is one of the things that has got the attention of a lot of politicians. This I know because I have been talking to a lot of them. If there were no tahr trophies, we would not have got the support to bring DoC and the minister back to the negotiation table to stop the cull to the extent the minister wanted. And plenty of Rec hunters want to shoot trophies too. Just look at the returns from tahr ballot hunts - the vast majority of animals shot are bulls. Now I'm sure by now everyone realises we need to be taking way more nannies too, and some rec hunters have already been doing just that.
But DoC doing it in an organised way whether they're culling or organised rec hunts has no choice but to follow accepted guidelines, what ever they may be and I'll find out at the next TLG. Not sure if they are even new, or just by agreement or something that is written down. I have only been involved for one TLG meeting, so not sure on the history around this.
Waro is quite separate from this form of DoC management, and we all want to see more management of Waro - and while we've been pushing hard on this one, we're not getting far with that under this current minister. Are you aware of any animal welfare rules for Waro? I've never heard of any but you've been involved with the Waro battle longer than I have.
The Foundation is tasked with representing all with an interest in tahr, and that means trophy hunters, meat hunters, commercial interests and recreational interests. What ever tahr population we are left with after all the new vege science has been done and agreed to, it is just commonsense that the make up of that population is manipulated as much as possible to meet the requirements of everyone interested in tahr. And that to over simplify it means more bulls, less nannies. Surely we're all in agreement in that?
And culling wise, what we've been saying to DoC is that they need to get the required animals culled by next kid drop - so long as nanny numbers are down before then, biodiversity requirements will be met. And the operators themselves have said the best time to do that is in winter/early spring.
Trying to answer all your questions here, but some are a little ambiguous so hit me if I still haven't covered anything. And lets be clear, I far from have all the answers but I'm just working through all the issues in good faith as they come up. And as yet, I haven't seen any conspiracies or skullduggery from any of the groups working on this, and everyone really does seem to be working together doing their best with the cards we are dealt with.
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #21 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 2:23pm
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Just depends how you define the trophy Greg.  Sorry,  Im a size doesn't matter kind of guy.

Just having Tahr should be our number one priority at the moment.
  
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #22 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 6:37am
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Its not about how I define the word trophy, its what the word trophy regarding tahr means to the hunting sector. You say size doesn't matter. There are also many more who wouldn't agree with you. The point is, we are trying to represent everyone with an interest in tahr, because united we stand. That is how we have been able to turn this whole tahr issue around into a sensible debate. If we ignored and tried to ostracize the commercial sector our case would have failed. If we only expressed interest in tahr for meat, not trophies, or visa versa, our case would have failed. Its the combined package and common sense that has won the battle, but we still have to win the war.
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #23 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 6:54am
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 6:37am:
Its not about how I define the word trophy, its what the word trophy regarding tahr means to the hunting sector. You say size doesn't matter. There are also many more who wouldn't agree with you. The point is, we are trying to represent everyone with an interest in tahr, because united we stand. That is how we have been able to turn this whole tahr issue around into a sensible debate. If we ignored and tried to ostracize the commercial sector our case would have failed. If we only expressed interest in tahr for meat, not trophies, or visa versa, our case would have failed. Its the combined package and common sense that has won the battle, but we still have to win the war.

Well said Greg we need to be united at this time against the enemy and we all know who that is.  If we ultimately win I'm sure there are many who have no love for WARO operations and guided operations but at the moment we need each other and must hold hands with the devil.  Shaun has good points but the time might not be right.  Great work all of you Wink
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #24 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 12:34pm
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Trophies are an important part of the tahr management.
Very true.

My concern is that if arn't swift enough to act then,  The matter may be taken out of our hands and we will loose more than we bargained for.
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #25 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 5:55pm
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I dont know much about it but I walked into a doc block a month ago that turns out had 10 other hunter's in there saw my first tahr found a good bull and fired 1 shot and took a 12 inch bull and cape easy as. ridculous amount of animals around but plenty for every one took a few for meat no dramas. I can only see culling creating more feed and better growth of animals left behind increasing trophy potential. Airial culling driving animals down into scrub land better for recreational hunters on foot.
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #26 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 8:52pm
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Some good points and discussion here that is great to see is with good constructive intent, long may it last. Greg, you don't get enough credit for what you do for the NZ foot hunter in my opinion. Thanks for what you and Willy are doing for us, keep it up please. The average hunter is too quick to give you a hard time i feel. We are all welcome to our own opinions and we are all emotionally involved, this unfortunately divides us to quickly and too often. I just feel that you cop far too much critism than what you deserve, thanks for standing up for us and keep it up, you are doing a great job i believe. Wink
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #27 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 8:11am
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Rumata wrote on Nov 9th, 2018 at 8:52pm:
Some good points and discussion here that is great to see is with good constructive intent, long may it last. Greg, you don't get enough credit for what you do for the NZ foot hunter in my opinion. Thanks for what you and Willy are doing for us, keep it up please. The average hunter is too quick to give you a hard time i feel. We are all welcome to our own opinions and we are all emotionally involved, this unfortunately divides us to quickly and too often. I just feel that you cop far too much critism than what you deserve, thanks for standing up for us and keep it up, you are doing a great job i believe. Wink


+1
Divide and conquer is the DOC/polly way
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #28 - Nov 11th, 2018 at 8:01pm
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 1:11pm:
Trophies are an important part of the tahr management. Without trophies there is no financial side to the argument, and that is one of the things that has got the attention of a lot of politicians. This I know because I have been talking to a lot of them. If there were no tahr trophies, we would not have got the support to bring DoC and the minister back to the negotiation table to stop the cull to the extent the minister wanted. And plenty of Rec hunters want to shoot trophies too. Just look at the returns from tahr ballot hunts - the vast majority of animals shot are bulls. Now I'm sure by now everyone realises we need to be taking way more nannies too, and some rec hunters have already been doing just that.
But DoC doing it in an organised way whether they're culling or organised rec hunts has no choice but to follow accepted guidelines, what ever they may be and I'll find out at the next TLG. Not sure if they are even new, or just by agreement or something that is written down. I have only been involved for one TLG meeting, so not sure on the history around this.
Waro is quite separate from this form of DoC management, and we all want to see more management of Waro - and while we've been pushing hard on this one, we're not getting far with that under this current minister. Are you aware of any animal welfare rules for Waro? I've never heard of any but you've been involved with the Waro battle longer than I have.
The Foundation is tasked with representing all with an interest in tahr, and that means trophy hunters, meat hunters, commercial interests and recreational interests. What ever tahr population we are left with after all the new vege science has been done and agreed to, it is just commonsense that the make up of that population is manipulated as much as possible to meet the requirements of everyone interested in tahr. And that to over simplify it means more bulls, less nannies. Surely we're all in agreement in that?
And culling wise, what we've been saying to DoC is that they need to get the required animals culled by next kid drop - so long as nanny numbers are down before then, biodiversity requirements will be met. And the operators themselves have said the best time to do that is in winter/early spring.
Trying to answer all your questions here, but some are a little ambiguous so hit me if I still haven't covered anything. And lets be clear, I far from have all the answers but I'm just working through all the issues in good faith as they come up. And as yet, I haven't seen any conspiracies or skullduggery from any of the groups working on this, and everyone really does seem to be working together doing their best with the cards we are dealt with.



fist few lines sum it up really,  its all about the $$$$  and you and your buddies are working on this issue soley for that reason.  the fact it would also benefit rec hunters is just a by product of the process and Is spun to help get you support.

all this crap about protecting the kids etc is just bs stall tactics as there are piss all reasons to stop doc apart from a select fews loss of income!!!!!     these thar groups trying to negotiate are too focused on  "trophies"   and the bs spin you lot put on it make it sound like all hunters would stop goin thar hunting if the biggest trophies were 12 inch,   to put it in perspective the wapiti herd has been f**ked for trophies for years up untill recently yet thousands still endeavour to go in there and try their luck and same would happen for thar. I know ironicly its a managed herd now but as trophy hunters you could reset the herd with docs cull and get rid of rubbish and then bring in good herd management to let the good survivors thrive but once again it will damage the few incomes for a few years so would never be an option.

Too many conflicts of interest in ANY of the hunting groups in NZ to ever have a fair and responsible outcome to rec hunters in which they claim to represent  (insert tui billboard)
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #29 - Nov 11th, 2018 at 8:08pm
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southotago hern wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 5:55pm:
I dont know much about it but I walked into a doc block a month ago that turns out had 10 other hunter's in there saw my first tahr found a good bull and fired 1 shot and took a 12 inch bull and cape easy as. ridculous amount of animals around but plenty for every one took a few for meat no dramas. I can only see culling creating more feed and better growth of animals left behind increasing trophy potential. Airial culling driving animals down into scrub land better for recreational hunters on foot.


not allowed to make sensible realistic comments like that  Cheesy     unfortunatley tv productions, aath and guides with moneybags tourist hunters like the open hunting hence the panic they had at the cull anouncement and are trying so hard with negotiation.  sad thing is while you had a great time and took a memorable trophy those guys would slam you for bad management shooting an immature bull that couldve been their paycheck in a few years.
  
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