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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers. (Read 3012 times)
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DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Nov 5th, 2018 at 8:11am
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DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Summer tahr ballot cancelled by DOC due to "external direction from opposed parties". I found out at 8:45 am on the 5th of November after. I cancelled hunting to be online at 9 am to lodge a ballot. Thanks for nothing DOC

Anyway you cut it this is a big mistake by the department. DOC deserve to go under the blowtorch for acting in this manner after the outcry about too many tahr. Now DOC go around cutting recreational hunters off at the knee. How does the handshake with stakeholders work again DOC?
  

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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #1 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 1:32pm
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Chopper companies too busy.  Smiley
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #2 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 2:10pm
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Yes that's the official line ATM. Funny thing is I was talking to pilot in haast yesterday and he encourage me to put in for summer.  I guess some of the heli companies will be bloody busy and some may have missed out because of that. Who knows. It is what it is.

Many hunters will be wondering why DoC have pulled the summer ballot off their website. Key NZDA members who have been working with DoC understand the issue is with the helicopter companies on the Coast who have indicated their inability to provide services for another ballot at such short notice during January. They have indicated it is among their busiest periods for tourist flights. NZDA will endeavour to work with DoC to come up with a workable solution for better access.
  

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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #3 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 2:37pm
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but if someone could get a helicopter to hire, why not let them go?
or walk?

  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #4 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 3:12pm
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Any chance the existing heli companies on the Coast will be busy, and don't want the opportunity to arise for anyone else to set up?

DoC facilitating a protection racket for the existing operators?  Undecided
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #5 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 3:39pm
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Its simple do the math.  30-40 odd landing sites for the summer cull, 4 cycles with maybe 3 hunters per site per week.  Gives an average of 400-480 bulls if each hunters takes only one bull during the week.  Its quite likely there will be more bulls taken, its good hunting at this time of year in great conditions.  Thats a sizeable hit on the potential product for the AATH operators to sell this winter.  If rec hunters can't hunt in January DOC will likely not allow us in these areas during their aerial culls in February.  So no potential access for rec hunters till March and everyone has other activities in March.  DoC have agreed not to cull bulls in Feb.  This is the only time ever outside of a winter ballot where recreational hunters have had the opportunity to get the same aerial access for a bull  tahr as guided AATH has always enjoyed.  This is quite likely aerial operators protecting their product for AATH from rec hunters.  Rec hunters probably would have shot a few nannies too even  Grin
  

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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #6 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 4:07pm
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Weathered, you should ring James and ask him what’s going on? First time I’ve ever heard of chopper companies turning down work? I guess a couple of them will be hard at waro as well.

Disappointing that Rec hunters are getting the pineapple again.
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #7 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 4:33pm
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outdoorlad wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 4:07pm:
Weathered, you should ring James and ask him what’s going on? First time I’ve ever heard of chopper companies turning down work? I guess a couple of them will be hard at waro as well.

Disappointing that Rec hunters are getting the pineapple again.


I am done with it mate.  The cynic in me says just one possible way to see things.  Maybe I am wrong and rec hunters will get better access later this year.  I don't mind being wrong for that  Wink Maybe I am right, then it is just another waltz in this dance we have over the future of NZ recreational hunter access.
  

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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #8 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 6:23pm
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id say weathered is correct and its the result of back scratching between doc and aath. 

  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #9 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 7:34pm
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doc and pro 1080 advocates have been bullshitting about being threatened by the public well i can see it might actually become an issue. people will only stand for so much and start pushing back, and being trumped at every turn with logic and legal attempts to be listened to some may resort to getting physical,  doc might have had meetings with the tahr foundation, game animal council and intoned they want to co operate but then just carry on and do what ever they wish
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #10 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 7:51am
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It has been explained to the foundation as simply the DoC approved helicopter operators which are the only ones who are allowed to do the transport in a DoC organised fly-in hunt are all too busy at that time of year to manage the number of flights required, especially as we have managed to get extra landing sites in the National Parks. Its was going to be an even bigger operation than the winter ballot. Once James Scott explained it to me, even I understood that January is the West Coast heli guys busiest tourist time - especially the weekends - and can see the difficulty logistically this presents. He said they could handle a smaller operation, but not a larger scale version of the winter ballots which is what this was going to be due to an extra 9 landing sites. The West Coast DoC guys did this with the best intentions, but unfortunately they hadn't spoken to the helicopter operators who would have been responsible for getting everyone in and out.
So conspiracy theories aside, unless you don't believe James Scott, this was simply a rushed operation attempted for the right reasons without talking to some of the key people.
The Foundation has proposed a spring ballot be held every year as well as the winter ballot, as this is the more sensible time before kid drop so rec hunters can cull some nannies too as well as access the bulls while they are lowest. As we've told DoC they can't cull nannies from December to March for animal welfare reasons, no-one can sanction the culling of nannies by rec hunters then either. And another important reason for not culling nannies at this time of year is the fact that any bull kids orphaned before they are old enough not to get a growth check, will never grow a decent set of horns. That first year's feed intake sets the potential for that animal's trophy potential for the rest of their life as they don't cast their antlers every year like stags do.
We were obviously too late to get a spring ballot going for this year, but will continue to work on that for next year, and look at other possibilities for rec hunter access as well. I believe DoC has shown clear commitment to get better Rec hunter access to assist in tahr management, and in my opinion from what I've seen, there was no enemy here, just insufficient communication due to the rushed time frame.
And as TH said, in the meantime, you can walk into any of these areas any time from the wilderness area boundaries if you want to. That's what we'll be doing!
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #11 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 8:06am
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 7:51am:
It has been explained to the foundation as simply the DoC approved helicopter operators which are the only ones who are allowed to do the transport in a DoC organised fly-in hunt are all too busy at that time of year to manage the number of flights required, especially as we have managed to get extra landing sites in the National Parks. Its was going to be an even bigger operation than the winter ballot. Once James Scott explained it to me, even I understood that January is the West Coast heli guys busiest tourist time - especially the weekends - and can see the difficulty logistically this presents. He said they could handle a smaller operation, but not a larger scale version of the winter ballots which is what this was going to be due to an extra 9 landing sites. The West Coast DoC guys did this with the best intentions, but unfortunately they hadn't spoken to the helicopter operators who would have been responsible for getting everyone in and out.
So conspiracy theories aside, unless you don't believe James Scott, this was simply a rushed operation attempted for the right reasons without talking to some of the key people.
The Foundation has proposed a spring ballot be held every year as well as the winter ballot, as this is the more sensible time before kid drop so rec hunters can cull some nannies too as well as access the bulls while they are lowest. As we've told DoC they can't cull nannies from December to March for animal welfare reasons, no-one can sanction the culling of nannies by rec hunters then either. And another important reason for not culling nannies at this time of year is the fact that any bull kids orphaned before they are old enough not to get a growth check, will never grow a decent set of horns. That first year's feed intake sets the potential for that animal's trophy potential for the rest of their life as they don't cast their antlers every year like stags do.
We were obviously too late to get a spring ballot going for this year, but will continue to work on that for next year, and look at other possibilities for rec hunter access as well. I believe DoC has shown clear commitment to get better Rec hunter access to assist in tahr management, and in my opinion from what I've seen, there was no enemy here, just insufficient communication due to the rushed time frame.
And as TH said, in the meantime, you can walk into any of these areas any time from the wilderness area boundaries if you want to. That's what we'll be doing!


Oh! But how will we manage without home comforts and beer?
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #12 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 8:16am
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 7:51am:
It has been explained to the foundation as simply the DoC approved helicopter operators which are the only ones who are allowed to do the transport in a DoC organised fly-in hunt are all too busy at that time of year to manage the number of flights required, especially as we have managed to get extra landing sites in the National Parks. Its was going to be an even bigger operation than the winter ballot. Once James Scott explained it to me, even I understood that January is the West Coast heli guys busiest tourist time - especially the weekends - and can see the difficulty logistically this presents. He said they could handle a smaller operation, but not a larger scale version of the winter ballots which is what this was going to be due to an extra 9 landing sites. The West Coast DoC guys did this with the best intentions, but unfortunately they hadn't spoken to the helicopter operators who would have been responsible for getting everyone in and out.
So conspiracy theories aside, unless you don't believe James Scott, this was simply a rushed operation attempted for the right reasons without talking to some of the key people.
The Foundation has proposed a spring ballot be held every year as well as the winter ballot, as this is the more sensible time before kid drop so rec hunters can cull some nannies too as well as access the bulls while they are lowest. As we've told DoC they can't cull nannies from December to March for animal welfare reasons, no-one can sanction the culling of nannies by rec hunters then either. And another important reason for not culling nannies at this time of year is the fact that any bull kids orphaned before they are old enough not to get a growth check, will never grow a decent set of horns. That first year's feed intake sets the potential for that animal's trophy potential for the rest of their life as they don't cast their antlers every year like stags do.
We were obviously too late to get a spring ballot going for this year, but will continue to work on that for next year, and look at other possibilities for rec hunter access as well. I believe DoC has shown clear commitment to get better Rec hunter access to assist in tahr management, and in my opinion from what I've seen, there was no enemy here, just insufficient communication due to the rushed time frame.
And as TH said, in the meantime, you can walk into any of these areas any time from the wilderness area boundaries if you want to. That's what we'll be doing!


And no one in TLG or NZ tahr foundation ever thought to move the balloted access into February or March?  Why not?

As for kids at foot.  Speak for yourself on that issue. Never had a problem before shooting kids as well as the nannies in February and March.   

Bottom line is New Zealand recreational hunters have agreed to and are obligated to shoot 10,000 tahr? Is that correct?  How do NZTF propose we do that when NZTF  introduce new obstacles to culling.  The tahr liaison group organise culls in February on the west coast.  Last years cull was in February was cancelled due to an order of 3000 nannies to be shot for meat.  Whats changed here?
  

"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.”
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #13 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 9:06am
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Discussions are now taking place about when extra access could work, now working with all the parties who are needed to make this work. As I said, we have proposed a spring ballot for all the reasons stated above. The Foundation was not consulted with over a January cull, and DoC cancelled it after talking to the West Coast heli operators, James Scott in particular. The Foundation collectively had nothing to do with proposing it, nor canning it. That was all done by DoC.
And yes, individuals can cull what they like when they like, but an organised cull is a totally different story and must follow recognised animal welfare guide lines.
Not sure where your 10,000 to be taken by rec hunters comes from. 4,000 by waro, aath and rec hunters is what we have proposed by next kid drop.
  
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Re: DOC Intentionally obstruct and frustrate recreational hunters trying to help reduce tahr numbers.
Reply #14 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 9:41am
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 9:06am:
Discussions are now taking place about when extra access could work, now working with all the parties who are needed to make this work. As I said, we have proposed a spring ballot for all the reasons stated above. The Foundation was not consulted with over a January cull, and DoC cancelled it after talking to the West Coast heli operators, James Scott in particular. The Foundation collectively had nothing to do with proposing it, nor canning it. That was all done by DoC.
And yes, individuals can cull what they like when they like, but an organised cull is a totally different story and must follow recognised animal welfare guide lines.
Not sure where your 10,000 to be taken by rec hunters comes from. 4,000 by waro, aath and rec hunters is what we have proposed by next kid drop.


Past experience with culls in spring utilising ground hunting on the west coast has shown there are significant obstacles to efficiency. January, February , March are the optimum times for moving around on the West Coast.

Over the past 15 years TLG, SCI and NZDA combined culls have always occurred in February on the west coast.  Please cite these new "recognised" animal welfare guidances and on whose authority Greg. 
DOC obviously don't recognise these guidances as they expect to resume culling in February.

It would be good to get improved recreational hunter access.  I throughly support your efforts here.  Perhaps New Zealand Tahr Foundation would advocate for equal landing access for recreational hunters.  The same access as enjoyed by the guide component of the NZ Tahr Foundation executive membership?
  

"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.”
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