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Normal Topic Run out problem (Read 1220 times)
Joshgill
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Run out problem
Oct 7th, 2018 at 2:54pm
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Hi so I got my run out gauge in the mail and have test my bullets with bad run out in both Calibers 243 and 7mm rem mag , r/o from 3 to 10-12 thou out so Iíve buggerrd around all day trying to solve the problem but no luck .
Press is Redding big boss 2
Dies Redding series a

Tryed everything I can think of and researched

Had trouble with getting run out at resizeing
Trouble at seating
And Evan seen a few bullets show more run out from seat to crimping ,

So dunno where to from here maybe try someone elseís dies shell hold and press and see if I can rule out one of mine?

Or any other ideas cheers
  
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J
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #1 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 3:50pm
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Do you use expander balls in your dies? I always remove them as I feel they can work harden necks and induce runout. If you use the, as others have said in another thread, polishing them can help. I expand my necks with a K&M expander mandrel instead.

I use Redding bushing neck dies to set tension, so have never tried crimping, but I guess this could be adding to your runout issues. Someone who crimps may be able to help with that.

Cheers
  
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Micky Duck
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #2 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 3:56pm
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TRY   this with a couple (youve nothing to loose) start seating projectile as normal them rotate case 180 degrees and finish seating it home.... measure and see if its better than you getting before...works for everyone Ive suggested it to.
  
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Joshgill
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #3 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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Have polished expander ball with metal wool on a drill didnít solve the problem  may of helped but unsure,

And I do use the turn pill 180 while seating Evan before measureing run out ,

Some bullets only have three thou r/o but 2/3rds  be well above this .case have just been annealed so not the brass I donít think

  
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6.5x55bjai
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #4 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:15pm
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What type of runout gauge did you get?

What you need to do, using your gauge, is to find out where in the process the runout is being induced. There may be cumulative at each stage or a step change at one stage.

Check your case necks (assuming your gauge will do that) after firing. With my gauge I can check both inside the neck and outside the neck. A fired case should have zero runout or close to it when measure on the outside of the neck and likewise on the inside if the cases have been accurately neck turned.

Then do your resizing and check again with your gauge. Maybe resize a few with expander removed and then with expander. Compare results.

Then on to the seating step.

A lot of runout is prior to the seating step and once there the seating dies mostly cannot remove the issue.

And yeah, I still rotate my case 180 degrees (as I have done for more years that I can remember) when seating even though I have proven with my gear it makes no difference.

As an aside I love Wilson straight line seaters and have always had great results with them. I recently bought a 308 Wilson Micrometer Seater to use instead of my Redding Comp Seater. Suddenly I am getting 6.5 thou runout!† Checked the Wilson die and it is not supporting my case very well - excess slop when the case is fully into the die. Disappointing, back to using my Redding die. And I determined that my sizing process is spot on and inducing no potential runout. Loaded 5 with the Redding and 5 with the Wilson. Redding was 0.5 thou whilst the Wilson was 4thou to 6.5thou.

As another aside, I took the dodgy Wilson loads to the range and shot a 0.3 MOA 5 shot group with my FTR rifle.† Go figure.

  
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Joshgill
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #5 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:51pm
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Itís a Sinclair gauge set up so canít measure inside of neck but I have measured each step . am getting run out when resizing , I never tryed taking expander ball out of die so I will check that ,Iím guessing thatís causeing most of the run out but I need it in there unless I buy a mandrel or something donít I ?

So I only loaded 10 today the only ten I could get down below 4 thou run out after resizing , 3 out of the ten seated a pill with 2 thou run out the rest went up 7 thou runout ,

Them I gave them a light crimp and was surprised to see the run out rise again, about by 2 or three thou which I thought was odd .

Im thinking it might be the a series of dies maybe they are just basic ones for basic reloading, they were only 150 $ do I need to look at getting the competition series if I want to get everything near perfect ?  Huh More money


I need to test with shooting but I would say my gun would should fine with the ones upto 6thou out its the ones upto 15 thou that Iím concerned about. 
  
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6.5x55bjai
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #6 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 6:46pm
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On sizing dies that have an adjustable floating expander ball setting the ball as high as possible in the die so that expanding occurs soon after moving the case back down out of the die can (not always) reduce runout caused by the die.

You can do this as well with an expander plug that is fixed on the rod by adjusting the rod up but of course if you do your primer decapping at the same time you end up not punching out the primer† Sad

Just for giggles you could try sizing without the expander fitted, check with your Sinclair, then refit the expander and then drive the expander into the case rather than dragging it back up thru the neck. Just be careful though as pushing down rather than dragging up could flex the rod - it  all depends upon how much the die has sized the neck below the expander plug diameter.

Another trick is to put an o ring under the expander rodís lock nut allowing the expander to float a bit and self centre. Have you looked into your die to see if the expander is central in the die? A lot of dies are shockers and the expanders are off centre although in theory they should straighten up under the force of pulling the expander back thru the neck.

What style of expander plug/ball do you have on your die?

  
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johnd
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #7 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 7:12pm
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The best thing I ever did to reduce runout was to replace the spring in the press ram that holds the shell plate in. Wind a rubber band around the groove that keeps the shell plate in place, this lets the shell holder center itself.

Try just neck sizing and a small shoulder bump as well instead of full length sizing. If using an expander ball in your die, try lubing it ( via the inside of the case neck) with a small amount of graphite.
The best way to get this into and around the neck is to pour some shotgun shot from a case into a small jar and then add the powdered graphite to it. A quick shake of the jar to bring the graphite to the surface and then plunge the case neck into the mix. You will notice a drastic improvement to the feel as you move the ram of the press past the neck sizer ball. You only need to do it to every 3 rd case to keep the ball "lubed"
Make sure you give the case a tap as it leaves the jar to remove any excess and any shot Wink
Or easier still take the expander ball out..... but then you need bushing dies if you run different case brands as they are all different neck wall thicknesses.

To overcome this you may need to go to a outside neck turning tool to give consistent neck wall thickness.
Some cases are actually thicker on one side than the other.... this could be another area for run out.

Welcome to the rabbit hole Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Cry Cry Grin Grin

Run out gauges are funny things, you probably shoot better groups without one Angry
  
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Joshgill
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #8 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 11:09am
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Loaded some bullets up with out the expander in the resizing die ,itís lowered the runout a lot still getting upto two thou runout on the neck after resizing tho, and when seating pill they are upto 5 thou run out .

So better than where I was upto 10 to 12 thou run out problems in my sizing die I think

Iíll go shoot them see how they shoot .

What everyoneís thoughts on trueing pill up after seating , i drilled a hole in my wood bench and by applying slit pressure on high spot, bring runout down to 1 thou from 5 thou , is this bad practise ? I will go text  it on paper and see if gun likes it
  
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Mathias
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #9 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 2:45pm
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Only time I induced run out was when I was simply resizing the case too far down the neck and bumping the taper on the shoulder. I backed the die off until I was about 0.75mm off the shoulder and all was fixed. I'm sure you wouldn't have over looked this aye... Smiley
  
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Micky Duck
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #10 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 5:43pm
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you had another thread about sizing issues and tight necks making it hard to pull expander ball back out......50 quid to knob of goat turds your two issues are closely related,its probable the ones that are hard to size that are the worst for straightness,fix first issue and hopefully second will come right too....ran 80 x .270s through die this arvo without a single one sticking,the graphite powder and polished ball helps.
  
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #11 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 12:12pm
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Biff the expander ball even the carbide ones are not much of an improvement, Invest in a Lyman M die for each calibre, I use them for all my reloading takes all the stress out of expanding necks,
I found that using the ball expanders the cases were not square at the mouth and needed trimming to square them up, with the M die it pushes down and does not stretch the case, I still use graphite in the neck, don't buy the Lee version it only flares the neck doesn't expand it and can damage the bullet as the neck is to tight below the flare.
  
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6.5x55bjai
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #12 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 7:39am
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+1 on the Lyman M dies. Love them, have them in 3 calibres. I use them for flaring case necks on cast bullet loads and flat base projectile loads. The flare makes for easy seating and minimises induced runout at the seating stage. I have found it also gives more consistant neck tension than dragging a expander ball up thru the neck.† †The M die can also be just used as an expander without the flaring function if loading boat tail projectiles.
I found the M dies neither make worse or better any runout induced by the sizing down stage, so if that is achieved satisfactorily she's all good still after expanding with the M die.
Everything else I load is neck turned and no expanding done.
On the subject of neck tension, I have found it to be far more important than say 3 thou runout. Consistant neck tension is the secret for low ES which if all else is done correctly leads to a narrow vertical at long ranges.
« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2018 at 5:17pm by 6.5x55bjai »  
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #13 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 7:44am
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You could anneal all your brass and dont use the expander ball. Bet it solves your issue.
  
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johnd
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Re: Run out problem
Reply #14 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 3:43pm
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I did an opposite just recently. screwed the ball back on. As I have done over 5 firings on this brass. I thought I would see what happened.

At the 300 yd mark i was getting 1 1/2 inch vertical spread. Horizontal was a bit more than that due to the wind and my lack of reading for it.

It was just a one off experiment, and i may not repeat it. But it was interesting to see.

That was  a 10 shot group as well
  
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