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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Tahr eradication proposed by the minister (Read 22163 times)
kiwishooter
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Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Sep 18th, 2018 at 9:36am
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Has anyone seen this?

This was posted on the Hutt Valley facebook page a couple of hours ago..........what should the reaction from the hunters be??

Attention ALL Hunters, Want to shoot a BIG Bull Tahr? See Below!

Minister Sage has now come up with what Greg Duley has aptly termed Tahrmageddon. Her latest un-consulted edict is to require at least 17500 further tahr to be removed beyond the 5000 she said they had shot to mid July. This includes 10000 from the Rakaia-Rangitata and Gammack-Two Thumb area and to keep going until they remove that many – not clear there are that many so east coast hunting will be stuffed for a decade. Mt Cook NP and Westland NP are to be targeted to zero density. Hunters are to be given the task of controlling tahr in the remote experience zones which have expensive restricted access and the most challenging terrain so the intention is clear – to set us up to fail then step in.

The shooting on the east coast will be in the most accessible areas to rec hunters. They now also intend to shoot not only nannies and juveniles but also 30% of identifiable bulls. As her justification she is using the ignored for a decade Himalayan tahr control plan 1993 (HTCP) however that’s BS and the plan has multiple requirements for consultation which have been ignored. This is her dogma driven final solution for tahr. There is no justification for this and it is simply her exterminationist dogma.

Her aim is to start the culling Sept 30th and finish it by mid November this year. If hunters are slow to react it will be too late, her intent is clear – to have the tahr dead before hunters have the chance to react effectively.

The NZ Tahr Foundation is likely to be the vehicle to challenge this and legal options are being explored, funding has been secured. For the first time the AATH guys, the guides, rec hunters are all on the same side adamantly opposed to her cleansing exercise, all have much to lose as does the nation – many tens of millions of visitor income.

Contact the minister and ask her to cease the intended action and hold meaningful consultation with all hunters as required by the HTCP, ask for the data to demonstrate the need, ask for maps of the areas affected etc etc. Note your concerns.

The Minister of Conservations email is eugenie.sage@parliament.govt.nz

We urgently need bulk numbers to grind her office to a standstill and create attention, nice approaches and reason do not work with her, GAC and the tahr community have tried it and failed, she is not listening yet. Also raise the issue with as many ministers and MP’s as you can.

Spread the word. If she succeeds with this on tahr then its likely various deer herds are next and when there is little left to hunt why do you need firearms ?

Be polite please, ask lots of questions, note she has at most 20 days to respond and do it ASAP. Bulk lobbying is one of our strengths, use it.

Thanks, HVNZDA
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #1 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 9:47am
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Your title is already misleading. ''Tahr eradication''.

A big cull is not eradication..

The post emotionally unbalanced, but im sure you will get a big response. 

I doubt they could be shot down to zero on the West Coast anyway so she is using  emotionally driven verbal diarrhea to wage war on Tahr.

Talking through a hole in her head in other words.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #2 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:15am
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My thoughts are that this minister is making decisions based on her own personal agenda.

She was opposed to the forming of the GAC so within 12 months of getting the Conservation portfolio she is having a review of the GAC.........even before that was announced she basically said at the NZDA conference she wanted to get rid of GAC and before that she was inferring to NZDA that the GAC wasn't required..........NZDA disputed that and informed the minister why it should remain.

Now we have the minister, who hates Tahr and actually referred to Tahr and Deer at the NZDA conference as "pests" making decisions based on her own personal agenda.

There is information that dispute the Tahr herd increases she is advocating, now we have her proposing that S&D by DOC will be undertaken on easily accessible land by hunters and that foot hunters will control the inaccessible land.

In other words setting hunters up to fail, she is giving the impression of consulting with the groups involved with the HTCP and then ignores the information from the discussions and seems to be driving her own personal agenda.

That makes me ask the question is she a fit person to be a minister??

Perhaps it is time for all hunters and their friends and family to start writing letters and emails to all political parties and the  PM (Jacinda Ardern) and ask the question, Is Eugenie Sage a suitable minister given her decisions seem to be based on personal agenda and unsubstantiated figures not scientific, and consultative discussion with the affected parties. 

Point out why the minister is NOT a fit person to have as a minister in charge of Conservation, Land Information and associate minister for Environment.

Use our voice to influence the Labour Government that if they allow the minister to carry on in this roll they along with Green's & NZ First will not be returning to power for a second term or anytime in the foreseeable future.

The choice is ours either we say something or we start buying all our meat from the supermarket.

The time to act is NOW
  

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kiwishooter
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #3 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:31am
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headcase wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 9:47am:
Your title is already misleading. ''Tahr eradication''.

A big cull is not eradication..

The post emotionally unbalanced, but im sure you will get a big response. 

I doubt they could be shot down to zero on the West Coast anyway so she is using  emotionally driven verbal diarrhea to wage war on Tahr.

Talking through a hole in her head in other words. Too much fervour and not enough thought, or all brillecream and no socks as we used to say.

Shame that a person like this has been put in power and willing to start a Tahr war without consultation.

I will be remembering this come the next Elections.


Headcase given the extra funding she received in the budget if you think that she won't try to eradicate Tahr while she is in charge of DOC I think you are dreaming.

She wants another 17,500 Tahr destroyed in the easily accessible country that foot hunters could target and then have foot hunters target the inaccessible areas...........this is nothing more than setting foot hunters up to fail so she can order Tahr in those areas destroyed as well and show hunters in a negative way to the public.

I have also been told that the minister is requiring 30% of the bulls to be destroyed as well.

Advice given to the minister

https://www.doc.govt.nz/about-us/statutory-and-advisory-bodies/nz-conservation-a...
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #4 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 12:14pm
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Going to be a lot of very angry tahr hunters out there. We all know culling of nannies is important but this is going to far.
I wonder who the heli operator is that is flying Doc round, they may not want to come across a bunch of AATH guides in a dark alley.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #5 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 12:20pm
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The problem appears to be two fold
1. The Greens are in govt and have power.
2. Minister Sage has her own agenda.

In my view rather than lobby individual causes it would be better to lobby NZ first and Labour to get rid of her.
Better to cut off the snakes head than treat the wound Smiley.


  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #6 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 12:50pm
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Email sent....
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #7 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 12:50pm
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To 'eugenie.sage@parliament.govt.nz'
for good order!!!
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #8 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:02pm
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Of course she isn’t fit to be a minister.
No one voted for her.
She’s in the Green Party so she can enact her own personal agenda.
She has zero regard for people that enjoy the outdoors but don’t share her idealism.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #9 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:19pm
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kiwishooter wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:31am:



I wonder if we should be contact the members of the NZ Conservation Authority.  It looks like it was there advice that recommended the tahr cull.  Anyone know these people


Kerry Prendergast (Interim Chairperson) | David Barnes | Gerry McSweeney | Jan Riddell | Mick Clout |
Rauru Kirikiri | Mark Brough | Robyn Jebson | Tony Lepper | Nicole Anderson



  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #10 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:53pm
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Kuzi wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:19pm:
kiwishooter wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:31am:



I wonder if we should be contact the members of the NZ Conservation Authority.  It looks like it was there advice that recommended the tahr cull.  Anyone know these people


Kerry Prendergast (Interim Chairperson) | David Barnes | Gerry McSweeney | Jan Riddell | Mick Clout |
Rauru Kirikiri | Mark Brough | Robyn Jebson | Tony Lepper | Nicole Anderson




Yes but what am I supposed to do? Piss off one of my best customers?
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #11 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 3:24pm
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From DOC
Quote:
14 September 2018
Peter Wilson
Federated Mountain Clubs
Dear Peter and Jan
Proposal for Reducing Tahr Population
Thank you for your organisation’s participation in the Tahr Liaison Group meeting on 29 August 2018.
As you are aware, the increased population of Himalayan tahr is causing concern for the health of the indigenous vegetation of the alpine and sub-alpine ecosystems.
The purpose of the meeting was to seek the group’s input on a proposed approach as to how stakeholders and the Department of Conservation can work together to address that concern, by bringing tahr numbers down to within limits set in the Himalayan Tahr Control Plan 1993 (HTCP).
Following the meeting, an amended approach that takes into account matters raised by stakeholders was discussed with the Director General of Conservation.
In recognition of stakeholders’ commitment to assist achieving the targeted reduction in tahr numbers on public conservation land, the Director General agreed that we follow the amended approach.
Proposal to the Tahr Liaison Group
The amended approach and proposal to stakeholders involves:
• NZDA, Safari Club International and Game Animal Council work together with their members to remove at least 2,500+ tahr from public conservation land and provide evidence and data
• WARO operators to remove 3,000 tahr from public conservation land and provide evidence and data
• AATH operators to remove 1,500 tahr from public conservation land using offsets and provide evidence and data
• Professional Hunting Guides to remove 500 tahr from public conservation land and provide evidence and data
Control by the Department
Over the same period, the Department will remove 10,000 animals (excluding Westland/Tai Poutini and Aoraki Mt Cook National Parks) from above 305 meters (1,000 feet) before the breeding starts mid November 2018 from Management Units 1 (Rakaia-Rangitata) and Unit 3 (Gammack-Two Thumb). More specifically:
• The 10,000 animals DOC will remove, will be made up of 3,000 male tahr and 7,000 “other” tahr which will be a mix of nannies, juveniles and kids (excluding animals removed from the Westland/Tai Poutini and Aoraki Mt Cook National Parks)
• DOC control operations will target highest density areas in MU 1 & MU 3 as per the tactical plan before the breeding season starts in mid November 2018
• DOC will not undertake control operations in any management units between the 15th of November 2018 and 15th of January 2019. DOC will undertake control operations in the Northern and Southern exclusion zones and risk zones over this period and all tahr will targeted in these zones
• DOC will resume aerial control operations after 15th January 2019 as per the tactical plan if they have not achieved their target of 10,000 animals (excluding animals removed from the Westland/Tai Poutini and Aoraki Mt Cook National Parks)
• All tahr will be targeted in the Westland/Tai Poutini and Aoraki Mt Cook National Parks are per the 1993 plan.
• DOC will stop control operations in the Wilderness Areas by the 30th of March 2019.
We are planning to commence this control work before 30 September 2018.
Review in April 2019
While we are keen to see the tahr reduction target achieved through the approach outlined above, the department is committed to having the overall target achieved, whether or not stakeholders are successful with their contributions.
The contribution from recreational hunting groups (NZDA, TIG, SCI and GAC) is expected to result in the removal of at least 2500 tahr from public conservation land.
During April 2019, the department will assess the data provided by stakeholders and undertake whatever further control operations we consider necessary to take out any shortfall of animals not achieved. That is, if by the 1st of May 2019 the 2500 target has not been reached by recreational groups, the department will remove the shortfall.
Tahr cull information
To monitor our overall progress toward the tahr reduction target, the department will need cull information from participating stakeholders.
We are asking that you work together to provide monthly cull figures from each group that has a target as set out earlier, and that you provide the information by the first Friday of each month (an email address will be forwarded to you shortly).
The information will need to include the GPS location for each animal removed from public conservation land. It will not need to include what the split of ‘male’ and ‘other’ tahr concerned.
Monthly updates of progress will be posted on the DOC website.
Once the tahr population has been brought back down within the limits of the HTCP, the department will work with stakeholders to set a future level of control per year (and how to achieve it), so the population does not exceed the HTCP limits
I would appreciate your feed back on this amended approach and whether or not your organisation will participate in it.
Yours sincerely
Andy Roberts
Director Operations – Eastern South Island
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #12 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 3:38pm
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Thanks TH Id forgotten about that when making my post this morning.. Slipped my mind what with all the other stuff to think about..  Cheesy
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #13 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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Maddoghunter wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:53pm:
Kuzi wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:19pm:
kiwishooter wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:31am:



I wonder if we should be contact the members of the NZ Conservation Authority.  It looks like it was there advice that recommended the tahr cull.  Anyone know these people


Kerry Prendergast (Interim Chairperson) | David Barnes | Gerry McSweeney | Jan Riddell | Mick Clout |
Rauru Kirikiri | Mark Brough | Robyn Jebson | Tony Lepper | Nicole Anderson




Yes but what am I supposed to do? Piss off one of my best customers?

depends how strongly you feel about it I guess
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #14 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 3:47pm
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So , question.

I was only barely alive when the HTCP was released with a limit of 10,000 animals.

For those who know, what was the tahr hunting like when this limit was achieved?

  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #15 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 4:05pm
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Tahr hunting in the 90s was pretty good for the rec Hunter. It’s all relative.

Sad it’s come to this, a lot of work ahead. At least it might stop hunting organisations paying lip service to the HTCP, our first major game management plan. Hopefully the opportunity to implement the Plan is still there in years to come, and hunters commit to it.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #16 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 4:29pm
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Ill will do my bit and shoot 150 this weekend.. bit of a worry though..who is doing the counting?
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #17 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 4:38pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 4:29pm:
Ill will do my bit and shoot 150 this weekend.


I guess you can safely leave the Forum alone for a while now  Wink
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #18 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 5:09pm
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A lot of fuss about a high altitude goat.  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #19 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 5:23pm
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I have sent Eugenie my email. Hope she reads it. Yeah right  Grin
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #20 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 5:25pm
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Baz wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 5:09pm:
A lot of fuss about a high altitude goat.  Roll Eyes

dust of the trebly and bullers Baz, reckon they’ll bail up ok in those bluffs to  Wink

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #21 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 5:36pm
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trusty222 wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 5:25pm:
Baz wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 5:09pm:
A lot of fuss about a high altitude goat.  Roll Eyes

dust of the trebly and bullers Baz, reckon they’ll bail up ok in those bluffs to  Wink

Hot barrels


Those bluffs look a lot steeper than I remember trusty.
I tend to hunt the flats and sidle the middle these days.
Cheers.  Smiley

  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #22 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 6:07pm
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https://www.gets.govt.nz/NZGAC/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=20115615

could get a job and give sage better advice?  Looking at the details your silly gac is going to be around at least another year...

I still dont understand why hunters get so wound up about crap like this when they create the problem in the first place.  pull the trigger alot more, for every bull you shoot take out 20 nannies but mr selfish hunter is too busy looking after his own wants and needs!!

  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #23 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:09pm
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Very interesting that there is no mention of leased land , or private.! Give it 6 months there will be slim pickings on public land. Might be time to start charging a fee for access... Wink
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #24 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:11pm
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A lot of runholders do already. Mate just got back from down there somewhere and I know he had to pay for access, got. A lovely bull though - I’m jealous 👍😁
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #25 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:20pm
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A fee for a bull, is a common thing . But a fee for access to just hunt something else . Huh
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #26 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:55pm
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Apple wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:20pm:
A fee for a bull, is a common thing . But a fee for access to just hunt something else . Huh



what would you charge to let a random wander around your back yard, take a dump or 5, pitch a tent and fire a few shots and leave a rotting gut pile/carcass?
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #27 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 8:27pm
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$1000 bucks a day , with own doggy bag, 500, for each animal...
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #28 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 9:05pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 4:29pm:
Ill will do my bit and shoot 150 this weekend.. bit of a worry though..who is doing the counting?



But all those GPS plots?  Wink
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #29 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 9:43pm
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The separation between public and private land will see the area's cleared seeded again with migrating tahr pretty quick.  We will just have to hunt them for year or two.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #30 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:04pm
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Who other than Sage is worth emailing, any NZ First MPs?
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #31 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 11:00pm
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Your local mp also.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #32 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:22am
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The reaction to this worries me nearly as much as the potential impact on tahr hunting. There is some fever-swamp stuff out there, especially on social media, that could backfire badly on us. And I'd be willing to be that Eugenie Sage is hoping some hunters will embarrass the rest of us and will use it.

Saw this on Facebook (I know, I know):

Quote:
The Threats posted about burning down Doc offices, killing doc workers and shooting down helicopters and the group of guys planning on stringing up number 8 wire between valleys in order to stop the cull. As much ae they are justified. We dont condone it......


Nope. There is NO justification for that. Most hunters have firearms licences and need to be considered 'fit and proper'. For that reason alone hopefully people stay reasonable.

Same page had a photoshop of Sage as Hitler. We are going to struggle if that sort of crap gets traction.

Its not all hunters. Its not even most. But there seems to be a lot of it - hopefully we can police our own and have a quiet word when we see it.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #33 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:23am
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First and foremost I owe every hunter an apology.  I voted Labour/ Greens because I thought it would be the best way top get some transparency in government.  I should have known better as politics is just that and never transparent, so I won't make that mistake again.  I'll vote in future just based on my selfish needs and not what I think is the greater good.
To me it's not even so much about the numbers being targeted, its Sages complete disregard for required democratic processes.   Just so conniving and two faced.   However, given how many other mistakes this current lot are making, they'll be a one term wonder.  It's a shame the Thar herd will take 10 years to recover and a shame that a twisted bitch like Eugenie will have a say on that.

So, I'm really really sorry and my vote was a wasted exercise in promoting what I thought was the greater good.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #34 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:26am
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Even if this looks kinda insurmountable... we still have to speak up for  "our" rights! I don't want to sound like the doomsday merchant but..! my gut feeling is that DOC & company being Ms Sage have an agenda &  they are beginning to display their hand.
I read a magazine about our wilderness & in it is a cartoon of "hut experience" & it portrays the need for ear plugs, check water tank etc. & the last little cartoon character is proclaiming aloud while holding a gun.." guns is my family"! with the caption, watch out for the weirdo!! There is a very obvious intention to rid the back country of hunters/guns so the tree huggers etc. can enjoy there latte's without hunters being a part of it!  They forget that its NZ for NZ! & everybody else can pay big time now to be a part of clean green NZ...yeah right!
just my 3c worth  Angry
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #35 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:35am
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DOC are on record as saying that the cull is going to take animals back to the population/densities set in the Plan, not further. That should be one of the 'bottom lines' if you are making a submission/complaint etc. At least we have the Plan, say that you expect them to stick to that existing agreement. Its an objective point.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #36 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 11:17am
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Sayonara wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:23am:
First and foremost I owe every hunter an apology.  I voted Labour/ Greens because I thought it would be the best way top get some transparency in government.  I should have known better as politics is just that and never transparent, so I won't make that mistake again.  I'll vote in future just based on my selfish needs and not what I think is the greater good.
To me it's not even so much about the numbers being targeted, its Sages complete disregard for required democratic processes.   Just so conniving and two faced.   However, given how many other mistakes this current lot are making, they'll be a one term wonder.  It's a shame the Thar herd will take 10 years to recover and a shame that a twisted bitch like Eugenie will have a say on that.

So, I'm really really sorry and my vote was a wasted exercise in promoting what I thought was the greater good.


Your apology is accepted.

I dont get that line in yellow.  It may not ever,  go back up to present high density numbers as we have today.. They are shooting down to the accepted 10000 and thats the herd. It wont recover to 35000 upwards ever if DOCs funding for herd management is increased and kept there. I imagine they will be pretty keen to keep it around 10000 in the future after going though all the bother to knock it back again..
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #37 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 12:45pm
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Only under Labour and I can't see that happening again.  They're alienating large numbers of people already and Winston's 1080 "Gone by lunchtime" was just another broken ass politico breaking his promise again.
35000 is too high, if that is what there are and that's not clear.
10000 seems way too low given the territory they occupy.
Might have to get back to deer stalking again for a while, or just go for a walk in the mountains, enjoy the air and the water and the odd glimpse of a Thar like when I started.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #38 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 2:24pm
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It was at or about 10000 in the 90s and the hunting was pretty good. We didn’t have AATH or as much guiding then. First order of business though is how many Tahr each part of their range can sustain. Then hunting needs to fit with that.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #39 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 5:12pm
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Sent this to Winston

Greetings Minister,

I would like to take a small moment of your time to voice my concerns with the way Minister Sage is conducting the current and future Tahr control cull in the South Island.
From what I understand the original cull was to remove a large amount of Tahr from the Aoraki/Mount Cook National Park a some of the surrounding Public Land administered by DoC.

The latest reports seem to show that the cull will remove a large percentage of mature bulls and cover a lot larger area, a lot of which is easily accessible by recreational foot hunters and leave the more inaccessible areas to be controlled by foot hunters which really defies logic.

I think someone needs to look at the views of Minister Sage and work out if she is working on behalf of the public she serves or just running her own agenda towards an idealistic pest free NZ. She has pretty much labelled any introduced animal living on public land as a pest and seems determined to go to any means to eradicate them.

In my opinion the Tahr do need to be controlled to manageable numbers but to remove them from the easily accessible areas where members of the New Zealand public hunt and gather to feed their families seems like the wrong way to go about the issue.

I trust you will look into this matter,

Regards,
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #40 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 6:50pm
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #41 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 6:50pm
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Interesting looking at the dollar value of the animals that will be culled, To guides, and the hunting from overseas clients, bulls - 30% comes to the fine amount of 5666,animals.  at a value of 5k us....comes in at $2’ 833, 000 us. Shocked
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #42 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 8:46pm
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I would also be writing to helicopter operators ... just let them know that weather they participate in this
“ Super Cull” or not is up to them but if they decide to take the short term money ( and that’s there right) they will never get another red cent of mine .. Now that mightn’t seem much but if all the hunting community did the same that would make an impact and give them some food for thought . Take the fist full of dollars today and loose a good customers for the next 20 years ..  In fact I’ll be emailing my guy letting him know of my stance on the issue tonight .

ie

  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #43 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 8:55pm
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MP’s email contacts:
Jacinda.Ardern@parliament.govt.nz
Simon.Bridges@parliament.govt.nz
Kelvin.Davis@parliament.govt.nz
Sarah.Dowie@parliament.govt.nz
Paul.Goldsmith@parliament.govt.nz
Nathan.Guy@parliament.govt.nz
Shane.Jones@parliament.govt.nz
Nikki.Kaye@parliament.govt.nz
Jennifer.Marcroft@parliament.govt.nz
Ron.Mark@parliament.govt.nz
Todd.McClay@parliament.govt.nz
Clayton.Mitchell@parliament.govt.nz
Stuart.Nash@parliament.govt.nz
Damien.O'Connor@parliament.govt.nz
David.Parker@parliament.govt.nz
Winston.Peters@parliament.govt.nz
Grant.Robertson@parliament.govt.nz
Eugenie.Sage@parliament.govt.nz
Lawrence.Yule@parliament.govt.nz
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #44 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:16pm
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i_e wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 8:46pm:
I would also be writing to helicopter operators ... just let them know that weather they participate in this
“ Super Cull” or not is up to them but if they decide to take the short term money ( and that’s there right) they will never get another red cent of mine .. Now that mightn’t seem much but if all the hunting community did the same that would make an impact and give them some food for thought . Take the fist full of dollars today and loose a good customers for the next 20 years ..  In fact I’ll be emailing my guy letting him know of my stance on the issue tonight .

ie



pointless. the same select few operators undertake this work and most of their incoe is waro and tourism, flying hunters is just loose change to them and your stuffed without them also nearly anyone in south island that has flown in hunting has used at least 1 most probably 2 of them, and 1 of their shooterr is a head doc fulla so no doubt he will push for more to be culled.

it also wouldnt suprise me if the cull started a week or 2 ago and this has only just been released to the public.  you cant stop a crazy lady on a good day let alone a crazy delusional green lady....  your f**ked untill next election
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #45 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 9:37pm
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Well it might be pointless GH but I’ll do it anyway.... A mans got to have some principals .. As I said they have every right to do the work but I’ve also got every right to not spend any of my hard earned with them ever either !!
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #46 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 10:32pm
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https://www.facebook.com/1007012652651173/posts/2119681454717615/

Just seen this, my question is tho "can they help stop it"?
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #47 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 11:18pm
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This same woman  proposes to 1080 every animal in the NZ Conservation area. When New Zealanders complain, she was heard to say the "hunters are the main opposition". Hunting clubs,forums[including this 1] etc have been ignoring the anti 1080 posts. Now the shits hitting the fan,she's come out against Tahr numbers. Watch,next she will be after the deer. She along with the last woman for 1080 [Jan Wright I think name was] only want BIRDS in NZ Conservation forests. This is GREEN Party, ROYAL FOREST and BIRDS aim only no animals Angry
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #48 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 12:16am
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Gooridog wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 11:18pm:
This same woman  proposes to 1080 every animal in the NZ Conservation area. When New Zealanders complain, she was heard to say the "hunters are the main opposition". Hunting clubs,forums[including this 1] etc have been ignoring the anti 1080 posts. Now the shits hitting the fan,she's come out against Tahr numbers. Watch,next she will be after the deer. She along with the last woman for 1080 [Jan Wright I think name was] only want BIRDS in NZ Conservation forests. This is GREEN Party, ROYAL FOREST and BIRDS aim only no animals Angry


Huh? Where does this come from?
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #49 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 7:24am
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BC wrote on Sep 20th, 2018 at 12:16am:
Gooridog wrote on Sep 19th, 2018 at 11:18pm:
This same woman  proposes to 1080 every animal in the NZ Conservation area. When New Zealanders complain, she was heard to say the "hunters are the main opposition". Hunting clubs,forums[including this 1] etc have been ignoring the anti 1080 posts. Now the shits hitting the fan,she's come out against Tahr numbers. Watch,next she will be after the deer. She along with the last woman for 1080 [Jan Wright I think name was] only want BIRDS in NZ Conservation forests. This is GREEN Party, ROYAL FOREST and BIRDS aim only no animals Angry


Huh? Where does this come from?


The NZDA and Tahr Foundation (among others) are trying to mount a credible option to convince Sage and DOC that it will achieve conservation goals and is most beneficial to hunters

The anti tahr lot will try and discredit what these groups are doing, and hunters generally. as "selfish", "anti conservation" etc

bringing in the 1080 issue (when these isn't one, as far as I know) is just damaging the credibility of hunters more.
Sage has been using the Hunters = anti 1080 = anti conservation speil up until now

its going to be an uphill battle, at best, IMO

To expect to be taken seriously (by Sage and the media, and potential supporters like FMC), using the same old anti 1080 rhetoric is going to shoot hunters in the foot.
Federated Mountain Clubs sound sympathetic to hunters over the way Sage is handling this attack on hunting.
Dragging stuff into the argument that isn't factual is only going to damage what hard working hunters are doing to fight this threat.


  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #50 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 8:08am
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Forest & Bird have about 80,000 members/supporters. Over 105000 followers on Facebooks etc. They have a professional advocacy group employed. They have had 2 past staff become Minister of Conservation. On narrow issues basis, they are more powerful than Green Party.

Imagine if hunters had the same?

Its a chicken and egg thing, if you want NZDA to do better, it needs resources and support.



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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #51 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 9:37am
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Ok Ill have another go. You know how I threw all my toys out of the cot last time round..

Nice poster.. more of that please...
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #52 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:07am
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Oscar wrote on Sep 20th, 2018 at 8:08am:
Forest & Bird have about 80,000 members/supporters. Over 105000 followers on Facebooks etc. They have a professional advocacy group employed. They have had 2 past staff become Minister of Conservation. On narrow issues basis, they are more powerful than Green Party.

Imagine if hunters had the same?

Its a chicken and egg thing, if you want NZDA to do better, it needs resources and support.



https://www.deerstalkers.org.nz/page/join-nzda.html

If you have trouble joining, PM me and I'll help.


Totally agree.

Unfortunately (from my perspective) the NZDA annual conference voted down the hiring of a professional full time CEO who would be paid appropriately. Very short sighted in my opinion. I'm guessing just 8 weeks out from the conference they might just be regretting that decision already.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #53 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:07am
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sent my letter of dissatisfaction off to numerous MPs last night.
then this morning I see that trout and salmon are now in minister Sage's sights with the conservation [indigenous freshwater fish] amendment bill. I feel Sage is either someone's hatchet person or running her own private agenda
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #54 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:17am
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We need to start “The royal NZ Bush and Beast Society”.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #55 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:20am
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[quote]Totally agree.

Unfortunately (from my perspective) the NZDA annual conference voted down the hiring of a professional full time CEO who would be paid appropriately. Very short sighted in my opinion. I'm guessing just 8 weeks out from the conference they might just be regretting that decision already.
[highlight]

Paying a CEO was going to put the subs up, i think the figure was $20.00 for each member? The NZDA membership isn't that big really and with many hunters complaining about this current eradication situation, more rec hunters need to join such an organisation to have a proper say. On forums such as this we are all over the place - rec hunteres need someone at the top as spokesperson with the media and govt departments. NZDA are doing there best but really need far more membership to maybe pay a CEO for a start? There are some tight buggers out there?  Smiley
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #56 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:22am
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Saw a post that a working group are putting together a plan for a CEO to be employed to it might not be dead yet?
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #57 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:49am
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Oscar wrote on Sep 20th, 2018 at 10:22am:
Saw a post that a working group are putting together a plan for a CEO to be employed to it might not be dead yet?


I hope it happens.

I think that the actual structure needs a shake up too.

At the National advocacy level the organisation is under resourced and yet at the branch level there are some very wealthy branches who are both asset and cash rich. Its crazy.

Federated Farmers was similar until they were hit by the 1987 crisis and that galvanised them into a restructure and becoming a voluntary member organisation (dropping the compulsory levy), and into becoming more effective (and efficient). My wish upon wish is that it happens to NZDA too.

All subscriptions should go to the NZDA National office and the branches should be funded from there. Not the other way around, because the status quo will throttle advocacy.

Funding a transition to a better and more effective organisation would not be difficult, and an increased membership would follow. It will take a bit of vision though and the branches would need to come on board.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #58 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 11:39am
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Problem with getting people to join nzda is that a lot of hunters aren’t deerstalkers.
And when I looked at joining it was going to be something like $300 for the first year and $120 after that.
We need to have an advocacy group that takes in deer stalkers, alpine hunters, Pig hunters, duck shooters, possum trappers, hunting guides, hunting parks and those that hunt for the table as way of life.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #59 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 11:48am
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Most of the members aren’t just Deerstalkers, either. Some aren’t even hunters, but target shooters.

A better supporter membership would be good, used to be Headquarters branch for that. Wasn’t that expensive.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #60 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 11:56am
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Oscar wrote on Sep 20th, 2018 at 11:48am:
Most of the members aren’t just Deerstalkers, either. Some aren’t even hunters, but target shooters.

A better supporter membership would be good, used to be Headquarters branch for that. Wasn’t that expensive.


Every activity encompassed by the the NZDA, be it in the field hunting or on the range, is going to require effective advocacy in the future (it does now). I don't think fiddling around the edges with the organisation is going to cut it.

I will leave it there.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #61 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 4:30pm
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Sent this to Jacinda and Eugenie

I know you're busy with a lot on your plate but you've got an out of control Ministrr of Conservation that's acting in a way that makes me question my life long commitment to Labour and a 20 year association with the Greens.
Her Thar destruction plan destroys a very valuable resource. I myself have helped many foreigners coming to NZ to hunt the only public land Thar herd in the world open to free range hunting.
There's millions of dollars in tourist numbers coming here to hunt thar and that'll be gone for a starter.
I dont/wont eat farmed meat because of my dislike of industrial agriculture and myself my family and friends have this meat as our main protein. I've been hunting them for decades partly due to the fact the young ones taste very nice and also to satisfy my conservation ethic by removing these introduced animals when there is clearly damage caused by overbrosing. I often shoot more than I can carry out if this is a case and numbers are too high. I do this at my own expense.
Eugenio is out of control and behaving in a dictatorial and deceitful way and is a very poor example of a government minister. Eugenio has forgotten that she is a servant and not the master. Her behaviour over this matter is abhorrent and I urge you to direct her to remember that your government is a democratically elected one and not a dictatorship.
I am aware that DoC met with the representatives from the new Tahr Liaison Group (TLG) in August, and they have now released their revised control plan to satisfy her objectives. The main take home message expressed by the TLG was, while they acknowledged tahr numbers needed reducing to some extent, DoC must not cull bulls. However, DoC’s proposed control plan completely ignores this. Outside the National Parks they have a said that 30% of the animals culled will be identifiable males (bulls over the age of 2 years old) plus all juvenile males - which is a complete joke – as identifiable males are only about 30% at the maximum of the population anyway! In other words this is no concession to recreational and commercial hunting interests at all! They are going to shoot all tahr in the Westland and Mt Cook National Parks (down to a zero density), attempting to eradicate them all together. Initially, on top of the 2,500 they have already culled in the last few months, they are going to shoot 3000 bulls and 7000 other tahr in Management Units 1 to 7 before mid-November (all the tahr range outside the National Parks.) This includes all the most accessible, heavily hunted areas of the tahr range.

On top of this, they are expecting us to dig our own graves. The plan states they are expecting recreational hunters, guides, WARO and AATH to kill another 7500 tahr and provide proof of this on a monthly basis by the 1st of May 2019. If we collectively don’t make the required number of kills, DoC will cull the remainder to make up the total to 7500. On top of what they’ve already culled, plus what they’re going to shoot in the National Parks, they are suggesting they are going to cull between 25,000 to 30,000 all up over the next 12 months – out of an estimated population of 35,000. That certainly will not leave any sort of tahr hunting resource at all, make no mistake!

This control plan is simply bad science, focussed on outputs not outcomes. The outcome should be firstly a healthy environment and secondly a tahr resource that produces quality animals for everyone’s needs. All the information from Tustin, Caughley and Parkes which we don’t have room to go into here says the tahr population is not increasing out of control, and with the current harvest level it has largely plateaued. Yes, there are still too many and we have this number of 10,000 in the 1993 HTCP, but there is no need for an immediate panic to get it back down to this level - nothing that requires this knee jerk reaction from the Minister and her department – causing them to ignore the input from all interested parties and destroying a huge recreational and economic resource. And we’re talking overseas export earnings here – the average bull tahr trophy generates about $14,000 all up for the country; multiply that by the thousands of bulls they intend to cull and we’re talking multi millions of dollars a year of lost revenue. Let alone the huge economy that is based around NZ locals’ recreational tahr hunting and the ancillary industries that it supports – importers and retailers of hunting gear and clothing, accommodation, taxidermists, helicopter and other transport operators, 4wd dealers etc – and the huge benefit to social wellbeing (fitness, physical and mental health etc) of getting people out in the hills.

There is a much better way of achieving the 1993 HTCPs objectives, without decimating tahr hunting and everything that goes with it. All the science tells us that targeting the identifiable females only is the quickest and most cost efficient way to achieve population objectives (even the 1993 HTCP says its preferable to target mostly females and acknowledges that bull tahr are required to motivate interest from all hunters). This time of year the bulls are off on their own and targeting them just means you’re wasting helicopter time flying around where there are no nannies. And a nannies-only regime is one that hunting organisations will buy into and do their bit to achieve – organised culls etc. The Game Animal Council are putting an alternative plan to the Minister, but we will need huge political pressure from others in her coalition government to make her see sense, judging by what we’ve seen so far. Keep up to date with our posts on this page, and we will tell you when, what you need to say, and to whom as we’ll need to mount a huge email/mail campaign to all the relevant politicians to get them to demand the Minister look at sensible alternative proposals. Andy Roberts from DoC told a bunch of lies to the media on the TV3 News last night, claiming that the population is out of control and tahr are going to starve this year. That is just mischief making at its absolute worst and not what we expect from a Government

In conclusion I am not going to have this Tsonga and resource wrecked by an individual that simply is completely ignorant of the true value of this herd to those of us that utilize this resource and truly value it.
If this extermination of s precious hunting resource goes ahead I personally will never vote Labour again. Not because of the Thar being wiped out but because I want to live in a democracy not an inept dictatorship. That's a promise.
Rein her in, seek collusion with all interested groups or 800,000 hunters will show you the door at the next election.

  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #62 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 4:35pm
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And this is probably the best article I have ever seen around 1080.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/discussion-new-zealand-conservation-issues-around...
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #63 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 5:15pm
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Sayonara wrote on Sep 20th, 2018 at 4:35pm:
And this is probably the best article I have ever seen around 1080.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/discussion-new-zealand-conservation-issues-around...  


I'm confused, he says Sodium fluoroacetate is naturally occurring in plants?

I thought the compound in plants was Potassium fluoroacetate?
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #64 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 7:16pm
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All subscriptions should go to the NZDA National office and the branches should be funded from there. Not the other way around, because the status quo will throttle advocacy.


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A better supporter membership would be good, used to be Headquarters branch for that. Wasn’t that expensive.


+ 1

About a year ago I just wanted to join up at a national level. I suspect there are others who aren't local club people also, just want to join up and support the association... it was all a bit hard and I left it.. I'm going to give it a go again. At the time I expressed my thoughts around the process - they need a simple form you can fill out online. Not this print off and send back baloney

I was wondering.. with a few different foundations now, H&H, NZDA, guide associations etc. is it possible to funnel all these memberships into an overarching body to represent all the small groups also? If this is to be the NZDA then fine. I'm a member of the Sika Foundation. I'd happily pay a bit more if as part of that I would also be automatically included with the overall national body. Or is it just better to have more small groups working away on big issues rather than one big one.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #65 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 7:33pm
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bringing in the 1080 issue (when these isn't one, as far as I know) is just damaging the credibility of hunters more.


I used to just roll my eyes to some comments on social media etc. but now its really starting to piss me off some people bringing cowboy 1080 comments into a debate not related, or at least not directly to 1080. Some people are commenting specifically about 1080 on this Tahr subject as if they haven't even read the very informative posts in front of them. The principles behind what we are seeing with the GAC rehash attempt, Tahr cull amongst other things we need to focus on. Not 1080 which we've lived with for years now! I don't like the stuff but come on
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #66 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 9:19pm
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On top of this, they are expecting us to dig our own graves. The plan states they are expecting recreational hunters, guides, WARO and AATH to kill another 7500 tahr

So if everyone with a permit does a return of say 25 Tahr.
Numbers will build up quick Wink
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #67 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 3:20am
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Being an overseas hunter I realize I have a very small voice in your political issues, however I have been fortunate enough to spend at least a month a year for the last 6 years enjoying your precious resources with some great friends.
I am not your stereotypical "rich tourist" but rather an average joe who earns his animals with sweat and hard work. I do however spend a considerable amount of money every year     ( and not all on Speights! ). For whatever its worth I will be sending e-mails to all the appropriate people stating as much. I have been hearing whispers of this day for a couple years now but hoped it would never come. What makes me sad is that I probably will not be returning for the foreseeable future and will truly miss all the wonderful friends I've made.
Best of luck to all of you! 
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #68 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 7:25am
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From Gordon George
In addition to all the effort needed to deal with DOC over Ruahine deer, WARO etc, GG is helping Greg Duley and Co with the Tarh Foundation cause
Quote:
Hi Guys
Yet more on Tahrmageddon. We need your help to save the tahr.

There is a fair bit of misleading info coming out DoC in an effort to suggest to people its only 10000 tahr to be culled in the next 2 months and urgent drastic intervention is required.

That is far from the truth. Its 10000 tahr plus 7500 by WARO, Rec, AATH and every tahr in the national parks and in June they shot 3000. So the total will likely be 25000 tahr or more. The population estimate (and it is an estimate - one of the seven management units apparently only had 2 data points) is 35000 tahr plus or minus around 15000 so there might not even be as many tahr as they want culled.

The 10000 they want to shoot in the most accessible country are required to include 3000 identifiable bulls. However DoC's own data from the June culls shows the bull percentage to be no more than 16% meaning there would have to be around 20000 tahr there to have even 1 bull left alive by December. The net effect is they will likely remove virtually every mature bull.

This is not management, this is eco fundamentalism. Trout are also in the gun through the indigenous freshwater fish amendment bill.

Full updates via the New Zealand Tahr Foundation Facebook page, share the page:
https://www.facebook.com/nztahrfoundation/

The pressure hunters have been applying has gained attention but we need to ramp it up. Costs are being incurred by the tahr foundation and we need your financial help.
There is now a give a little page, spread the word.

https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/nz-tahr-foundation

Attached please find some lobbying guides. There is also a list of every MP and their electorate contact details. Seek meetings with MP's, phone them (be rational, no ranting). In addition to emails please write and post letters asking questions. See the guides for details. There is also a press release /fact sheet to help inform your letters and emails. Also note the likely impact this cull will likely have on the willingness of hunters to sustain partnerships with DoC.

Legal action is underway but we need to challenge this un-consulted unjustified cull on as many fronts as possible. Cooperation, consultation and good data not blind dogma is needed

Save the tahr, get writing and spread the word

GG

  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #69 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 7:46am
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TARH FOUNDATION MEDIAL RELEASE
Quote:
Tahrmageddon condemned!

“There is a huge amount of fundamentalist spin being told about the current tahr situation” says the NZ Tahr Foundation.

The facts - DoC’s own science they are basing the cull on has been hastily gathered, is statistically shaky, and puts the population at anywhere between 17,000 and 50,000. On top of the 3,000 they recently culled, they are proposing to cull another 17,500 outside Mt Cook and Westland National Parks, and all the tahr inside the National Parks. This is potentially 25,000 to 30,000 tahr, when the population may well be as low as 20,000. (The Minister has misrepresented the numbers and been very disingenuous in today’s Government Press Release)

Their proposal to shoot 30% of the total culled as identifiable males is laughable, when their own data says they only make up 16% of the population. “Whoever wrote the plan did not look at their own science!”

They do not know whether the population is increasing, peaked, or begun to decrease. Their own modelling which they are now ignoring says the current harvest will stop the estimated tahr population of 35,000 from exploding.

There is no impending ecological catastrophe nor a population explosion that requires this knee jerk reaction. Tahr are not starving on the hill as Andy Roberts from DoC claimed. This is just more propaganda.

“We are not saying there does not need to be some reduction, but this is eradication in disguise, not population control. This whole proposal smacks of indigenous fundamentalist ideology. It defies the reality of NZ today.”

DoC’s control plan is Ill-conceived and ill-thought out and will wreck businesses and recreational hunting totally unnecessarily.

Doc has been very quick to take money from the commercial hunting sector fostering their businesses over the last 10 years, and now intends to wreck them on the whim of whom? Is this an instruction from the Minister of Conservation or DoC gone rogue? Somebody needs to come clean.

DoC are quoting the 1993 Himalayan Tahr Control Plan, but it’s now 2018 – 25 years later. They were supposed to review it within 5 years and it’s never been done. It is well past its best by date and isn’t fit for purpose.

The hunting sector has never been allowed to manage tahr. We have always wanted a much greater input into management but DoC has never allowed it and instead have limited our access to the land where the problem numbers are.  They stopped all tahr hunter liaison group meetings 3 years ago. The only example of hunter management being allowed in NZ is the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation and even DoC admits this has been a huge success at no cost to the tax payer!

The hunting sector is currently collectively developing an alternative control proposal that will reduce tahr numbers in a co-ordinated and scientifically based manner without destroying the resource. Over three years we can reduce the population without destroying the multi-million dollar industry that relies on it, nor the recreation of thousands of New Zealanders – at a time when we all acknowledge our population is becoming increasingly sedentary and we need every incentive to get people up off the couch!

Hunters want to manage the herds, they want to help conservation and they want to work with a Department which listens and is considerate of the value game animals have to everyday New Zealanders.

Our lawyers are in the process of serving a letter to the department notifying them if they do not put a stay to the cull and carry out proper consultation, then an interim injunction will be sought as part of a judicial review.
The letter will likely be served today and the injunction will follow if common sense does not prevail.

The last word - Gordon George of the Tahr Foundation says “A mature well considered and consulted discussion, free from dogma, is the way forward for future management. As the minister noted July 16th on TV1's Sunday program: "we are a democracy, so we need to consult, we need to ensure we have all the facts so that we have a clear workable plan". Her plan for tahr is not workable, they do not have all the facts, they have not consulted and it’s clear the minister has a different understanding of democracy to the rest of the country.”

ENDS


New Zealand Tahr Foundation

Contact: Greg Duley  iinfo@nztahrfoundation.nz

  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #70 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 7:49am
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No I think thats wrong. They want to cull thar down to 10000. (about)   If there are 35000 tahr they want a combined cull by whatever means, of about 25000.

WE better get this bit right or we are doomed to be laughed at from the the start.


isn't it about less 25,000 plus nil in the National Parks HC?
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #71 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 8:53am
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Was swapping numbers with a guide on Facebook and they are interesting to compare to the numbers from DOC.

Tustin estimated 2-3% of the herd will be trophy bulls. Export each year is about 1000-1200 bull Tahr trophies. Couple of hundred from the Ballot blocks (mainly resident). And some more by rec hunters elsewhere through the year. But not all those ‘trophies’ are mature bulls.

So, be conservative and say 1400 mature bulls killed each year at 3% - that’s a herd of 47000 more or less.

If the future herd size is 10000 that’s 300 mature bulls a year. If 20000 it’s 600.

Either way the current commercial take of trophies is not sustainable, and will be very small in future once resident hunters get their entitlement first. Farming in paddocks behind high fences is the likely response?
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #72 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 9:37am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 7:46am:
TARH FOUNDATION MEDIAL RELEASE
Quote:
Tahrmageddon condemned!

“There is a huge amount of fundamentalist spin being told about the current tahr situation” says the NZ Tahr Foundation.

The facts - DoC’s own science they are basing the cull on has been hastily gathered, is statistically shaky, and puts the population at anywhere between 17,000 and 50,000. On top of the 3,000 they recently culled, they are proposing to cull another 17,500 outside Mt Cook and Westland National Parks, and all the tahr inside the National Parks. This is potentially 25,000 to 30,000 tahr, when the population may well be as low as 20,000. (The Minister has misrepresented the numbers and been very disingenuous in today’s Government Press Release)

Their proposal to shoot 30% of the total culled as identifiable males is laughable, when their own data says they only make up 16% of the population. “Whoever wrote the plan did not look at their own science!”

They do not know whether the population is increasing, peaked, or begun to decrease. Their own modelling which they are now ignoring says the current harvest will stop the estimated tahr population of 35,000 from exploding.

There is no impending ecological catastrophe nor a population explosion that requires this knee jerk reaction. Tahr are not starving on the hill as Andy Roberts from DoC claimed. This is just more propaganda.

“We are not saying there does not need to be some reduction, but this is eradication in disguise, not population control. This whole proposal smacks of indigenous fundamentalist ideology. It defies the reality of NZ today.”

DoC’s control plan is Ill-conceived and ill-thought out and will wreck businesses and recreational hunting totally unnecessarily.

Doc has been very quick to take money from the commercial hunting sector fostering their businesses over the last 10 years, and now intends to wreck them on the whim of whom? Is this an instruction from the Minister of Conservation or DoC gone rogue? Somebody needs to come clean.

DoC are quoting the 1993 Himalayan Tahr Control Plan, but it’s now 2018 – 25 years later. They were supposed to review it within 5 years and it’s never been done. It is well past its best by date and isn’t fit for purpose.

The hunting sector has never been allowed to manage tahr. We have always wanted a much greater input into management but DoC has never allowed it and instead have limited our access to the land where the problem numbers are.  They stopped all tahr hunter liaison group meetings 3 years ago. The only example of hunter management being allowed in NZ is the Fiordland Wapiti Foundation and even DoC admits this has been a huge success at no cost to the tax payer!

The hunting sector is currently collectively developing an alternative control proposal that will reduce tahr numbers in a co-ordinated and scientifically based manner without destroying the resource. Over three years we can reduce the population without destroying the multi-million dollar industry that relies on it, nor the recreation of thousands of New Zealanders – at a time when we all acknowledge our population is becoming increasingly sedentary and we need every incentive to get people up off the couch!

Hunters want to manage the herds, they want to help conservation and they want to work with a Department which listens and is considerate of the value game animals have to everyday New Zealanders.

Our lawyers are in the process of serving a letter to the department notifying them if they do not put a stay to the cull and carry out proper consultation, then an interim injunction will be sought as part of a judicial review.
The letter will likely be served today and the injunction will follow if common sense does not prevail.

The last word - Gordon George of the Tahr Foundation says “A mature well considered and consulted discussion, free from dogma, is the way forward for future management. As the minister noted July 16th on TV1's Sunday program: "we are a democracy, so we need to consult, we need to ensure we have all the facts so that we have a clear workable plan". Her plan for tahr is not workable, they do not have all the facts, they have not consulted and it’s clear the minister has a different understanding of democracy to the rest of the country.”

ENDS


New Zealand Tahr Foundation

Contact: Greg Duley  iinfo@nztahrfoundation.nz



Right now we dont have democracy, we have socialism of the 5.9%. This is because the relevant bureaucracy shares the ideals of the minister and is doing what it can to sidestep proper process to further its own goals.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #73 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 9:39am
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Oscar wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 8:53am:
Was swapping numbers with a guide on Facebook and they are interesting to compare to the numbers from DOC.

Tustin estimated 2-3% of the herd will be trophy bulls. Export each year is about 1000-1200 bull Tahr trophies. Couple of hundred from the Ballot blocks (mainly resident). And some more by rec hunters elsewhere through the year. But not all those ‘trophies’ are mature bulls.

So, be conservative and say 1400 mature bulls killed each year at 3% - that’s a herd of 47000 more or less.

If the future herd size is 10000 that’s 300 mature bulls a year. If 20000 it’s 600.

Either way the current commercial take of trophies is not sustainable, and will be very small in future once resident hunters get their entitlement first. Farming in paddocks behind high fences is the likely response?

Many of us, including yourself have said this for a long time... we need to help the guiding industry to add value to a bull tahr- less bulls but majorly more value. We also need to start valuing them ourselves... contributing to the cost.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #74 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 10:54am
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A problem I see a bit in some of the heated debates going on is the view that we need to set Tahr numbers according to what hunting (recreational and commercial) needs. And that is completely arse-about-face. Tahr herd size/densities will need to be set according to what the vegetation can sustain (and according to the views of other parts of society too). Hunting kill will then just have to fit with that.

And then how do we decide how many bulls go to resident hunters, how many to commercial hunting? Or does it stay a free-for-all?
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #75 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 11:15am
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if it stays a free for all, we will be back in this situation again in my lifetime.

The real answer lies beyond the scope of what can be achieved under this government.
About the best realistic hope for the short term is that we can halt the cull, and get the current minister to the table...
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #76 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 12:46pm
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PRESS RELEASE FROM: NZ OUTDOORS PARTY

DATE: FRIDAY 21st SEPTEMBER 2018

SUBJECT: HUNTERS UNDER ATTACK AGAIN


Hunters all over new Zealand feel like they under an intense attack from the Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage who has let her personal hatred of wild animals cloud her judgement.
"This mass killing of up to 25,000 animals is unprecedented in this country and about one million kilos of meat will be left to rot on the mountains of New Zealand.   The stench and pollution of headwater streams will be on the Minister’s head. This is our food basket on which many families rely on."  says Alan Simmons President of The NZ Outdoors Party.

" Recreational hunting groups and Hunting guides have already made it clear that a cull of even 10,000 would seriously impinge on the future of their hunting opportunities – The Minister’s response was to direct DoC to shoot 17,500 including nannies and kids on top of the 5000 already shot."
He continued “ Hunters and Fisherman need to stand up and show Eugenie Sage she can't bring her past prejudices to the job of conservation Minister."  It’s about time the Game Animal Council was refreshed with elected representatives and given the role of long-term game animal management.  This is the only way that conservation, recreation and commercial interest can be satisfied.”

END
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #77 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 1:08pm
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So what is the partys stance on the cull? Some need to be culled, but less? , or we cant have enough?

  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #78 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 1:23pm
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Too many but lots of fishhooks in the way its being done, numbers claimed, consultation and waste... there needs to be better management...
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #79 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 3:41pm
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They’ll be using choppers to shoot them, not hard to put the meat into chillers and get it processed for eating - what are they going to do with the Mycoplasma Bovis infected meat - straight into the freezing works - can’t see why it has to rot in the hills. It’s actually a good use of the resource. Mince Tahr at pac n save for <$10.00 a kg? I’d buy It.😈
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #80 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 3:52pm
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Tahr Foundation have a GiveALittle page for donations: https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/nz-tahr-foundation

I’m happy to donate but would like to know the people involved. Does anyone know who the NZTF committee/Exec/board are? I know Greg Duley is one. I have no doubt about their integrity but transparency is an important principle.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #81 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 5:58pm
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Here's a reply to a letter sent to Simon Bridges, the Opposition.


Dear Greig   


Thank you for your email regarding the Himalayan Tahr cull.

Fishing, hunting, and outdoor recreation are part of New Zealand’s unique way of life. National believes in a pragmatic approach to conservation, and the recreation sector plays an important role in this.

With respect to Tahr control, the Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage must ensure that the Himalayan Tahr Control Plan 1993 is still fit for purpose. National has called for a stop of the cull, until the Department has had a chance to consult with the hunting industry and recreational hunters properly. 

For your information, please see the Press Release from Nationals’ Conservation Spokesperson Sarah Dowie which outlines National’s position on this issue at: https://www.national.org.nz/cut_the_cull_minister_sage

National’s Bluegreen approach is about having recreationalists more directly involved and in getting sector groups like recreational and commercial hunters around the table to resolve matters such as Himalayan Tahr.

Thank you for taking the time to write – I value hearing from all New Zealanders on this matter.


Yours sincerely


Simon Bridges
Leader of the Opposition
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #82 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 6:14pm
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Best thing he has said ever.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #83 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 6:21pm
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Very good.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #84 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 7:29pm
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Interesting reply .great to see good support.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #85 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 7:45pm
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What a good bastard!
Refreshing to see some positivity.
If only the election was tomorrow.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #86 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 7:54pm
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Unfortunately National seems to have cut and pasted their response.
This reply I received is word for word what Simon Bridges said. They still have my support any day over the rest we have to currently deal with.

Sarah Dowie <Sarah.Dowie@parliament.govt.nz>
Thu 20/09/2018, 11:39 AM
Thank you for your email regarding  the Himalayan Tahr cull.

National believes in a pragmatic approach to conservation, and the recreation sector plays an important role in this.

With respect to Tahr control, the Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage must ensure that the Himalayan Tahr Control Plan 1993 is still fit for purpose before it is imposed. National has called for a stop of the cull, until the Department has had a chance to consult with the hunting industry and recreational hunters properly. 

Fishing, hunting, and outdoor recreation are part of New Zealand’s unique way of life.  For your information, please see my Press Release which outlines National’s position on this issue at: https://www.national.org.nz/cut_the_cull_minister_sage

Cut the cull Minister Sage - NZ National Party
Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage needs to halt her cull of 17,500 Himalayan Tahr due to start until proper engagement and consultation has taken place
www.national.org.nz

I would like to acknowledge National’s Bluegreen approach of having recreationalists more directly involved and in getting sector groups like recreational and commercial hunters around the table to resolve matters such as Himalayan Tahr.

Thank you for taking the time to write – I value hearing from all New Zealanders on this matter.

Kind regards
Sarah
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #87 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 8:40pm
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Kuzi wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:19pm:
kiwishooter wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:31am:



I wonder if we should be contact the members of the NZ Conservation Authority.  It looks like it was there advice that recommended the tahr cull.  Anyone know these people


Kerry Prendergast (Interim Chairperson) | David Barnes | Gerry McSweeney | Jan Riddell | Mick Clout |
Rauru Kirikiri | Mark Brough | Robyn Jebson | Tony Lepper | Nicole Anderson





McSweeny is former forest and bird head and no friend of hunters
Clout lectured me at uni.  Pretty orthodox anti introduced species attitude from memory
I thing kerry pendergrass used to be a mayor somewhere

No obvious help on list.

IMO this is the ministers pet project anyway.  Soon after the election a couple of friends still in the system contacted me to say they thought things would get rough judged on the questjons coming from Head office and mjnjster.  One even advised to get down after tahr while i ckuld.  Glad i did.  Bastard my kids might not get to though  Undecided
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #88 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 10:43pm
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So it's 10:30 on Friday evening and tonight I've caught up on the last 10 days of whats gone on both in NZ and on this forum. It's pretty gutting to see what our uncalculated minister has gone and done in regard to our tahr, that so many many hunters both in NZ and abroad treasure and appreciate, but with the benefit of not being emotionally envolved (until now) it makes me think so how did an MP that belongs to the GREEN PARTY, who weaselled thier way into our government through the MMP system and a fair degree of sheer luck, who (if I recall correctly) got about 6% of the vote at the last election, end up with sooo much power over all of us hunters in NZ? Huh
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #89 - Sep 21st, 2018 at 11:11pm
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Looks like ' Tat ta Tahr' as far as  'DOCtator' 'Eugenie the unelected' is concerned...... Lets all make sure that the next cull she is taking part in, involves the ballot box.   Smiley
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #90 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 12:35am
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Oscar wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 3:52pm:
Tahr Foundation have a GiveALittle page for donations: https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/nz-tahr-foundation

I’m happy to donate but would like to know the people involved. Does anyone know who the NZTF committee/Exec/board are? I know Greg Duley is one. I have no doubt about their integrity but transparency is an important principle.


The New Zealand Tahr Foundation
NZ TAHR FOUNDATION·FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 2018
 
The Society has a managing committee (“the Committee”), comprising the following officers:
(a) Chairperson;
(b) Deputy chairperson;
(c) Secretary;
(d) Treasurer; and
(e) Such other Members as set out in clause 4.2.
The Committee consists of one voting member and one observer appointed by each of:
NZ Professional Hunting Guides Association
New Zealand Deerstalkers Association Inc.
Ngai Tahu
Aerially Assisted Trophy Hunters
Safari Club International NZ Chapter
NZ Association of Game Estates
Helicopter WARO concession holders
High country farmers
Unaffiliated hunters
One nominated from  Aoraki-Canterbury Conservation Board
Department of Conservation
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #91 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 7:55am
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Politics makes strange bedfellows.  I dontated.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #92 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:10am
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Have to agree HC. Very interesting mix there, be nice to see them working together for the best outcome.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #93 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:24am
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got a reply to my letter to NZ First last night. They are backing minister Sage. and saying there will still be an abundant Tahr population to sustain Tahr hunting and tourist ventures  Cry
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #94 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:35am
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Yes sadly Tim my reply was the same from NZ first. Cry
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #95 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:13am
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Rumpy wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:10am:
Have to agree HC. Very interesting mix there, be nice to see them working together for the best outcome.


Perhaps there is a brighter side to AATH. A mixed group such as this with pressing financial and hunting interests should be able to raise considerable funding and form a formidable lobby group to stem the red tide.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #96 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 10:16am
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Well although I don't agree, I guess the responce from NZ First is predictable as Winston is the one who formed this government and put that idiot Sage in the seat. Angry Maybe his slogan for the next election could be "NZ First to Kill all our Thar!"
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #97 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 4:43pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:13am:
Rumpy wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:10am:
Have to agree HC. Very interesting mix there, be nice to see them working together for the best outcome.


Perhaps there is a brighter side to AATH. A mixed group such as this with pressing financial and hunting interests should be able to raise considerable funding and form a formidable lobby group to stem the red tide.


The onus is now on the Tahr Foundation to use our plus $50k wisely and in the best interests of all Tahr hunters. They are a funny old mix of commercial and recreational interests - strange bed fellows who now have to pull together for the outcome with the most utility.

Its a strange situation because there's the GAC out there and sort of stranded on the sideline because of politics and a lack of funding, and you have got the Tahr Foundation with similar representation and now with funds to actually achieve something.

I think that the Tahr Foundation now need to step forward and tell us more about their intent and strategies, or if that would compromise them at least keep the funders regularly updated.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #98 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 4:57pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 7:55am:
Politics makes strange bedfellows.  I dontated.


My enemy's enemy is my friend?



tim37 wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:24am:
got a reply to my letter to NZ First last night. They are backing minister Sage. and saying there will still be an abundant Tahr population to sustain Tahr hunting and tourist ventures  Cry


Will if nothing else I guess that confirms that the 'Labour led-coalition' are onside with this, and it isn't a case of Minister Sage going rogue?
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #99 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 5:04pm
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Don't think the coalition would actually understand whats happening. Just reading the briefings  given to them, I expect. courts the only was to sort it
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #100 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 5:34pm
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Whats the procedure there?
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #101 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 5:34pm
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BC wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 4:43pm:
headcase wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:13am:
Rumpy wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:10am:
Have to agree HC. Very interesting mix there, be nice to see them working together for the best outcome.


Perhaps there is a brighter side to AATH. A mixed group such as this with pressing financial and hunting interests should be able to raise considerable funding and form a formidable lobby group to stem the red tide.


The onus is now on the Tahr Foundation to use our plus $50k wisely and in the best interests of all Tahr hunters. They are a funny old mix of commercial and recreational interests - strange bed fellows who now have to pull together for the outcome with the most utility.

Its a strange situation because there's the GAC out there and sort of stranded on the sideline because of politics and a lack of funding, and you have got the Tahr Foundation with similar representation and now with funds to actually achieve something.

I think that the Tahr Foundation now need to step forward and tell us more about their intent and strategies, or if that would compromise them at least keep the funders regularly updated.



In one way it is nice to see that this issue has really brought a lot of groups together for a common cause. As with the LNIRDF the NZ Tahr Foundation seem to have the backing to have a decent say in a positive outcome.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #102 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:46pm
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BC wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 4:43pm:
headcase wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:13am:
Rumpy wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:10am:
Have to agree HC. Very interesting mix there, be nice to see them working together for the best outcome.


Perhaps there is a brighter side to AATH. A mixed group such as this with pressing financial and hunting interests should be able to raise considerable funding and form a formidable lobby group to stem the red tide.


The onus is now on the Tahr Foundation to use our plus $50k wisely and in the best interests of all Tahr hunters. They are a funny old mix of commercial and recreational interests - strange bed fellows who now have to pull together for the outcome with the most utility.

Its a strange situation because there's the GAC out there and sort of stranded on the sideline because of politics and a lack of funding, and you have got the Tahr Foundation with similar representation and now with funds to actually achieve something.

I think that the Tahr Foundation now need to step forward and tell us more about their intent and strategies, or if that would compromise them at least keep the funders regularly updated.


Rest assured BC, the GAC is very actively working with the Tahr Foundation, other hunting sector groups, DoC and the Minister to find a way through this. 
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #103 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:09pm
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MeatHunta wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:46pm:
BC wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 4:43pm:
headcase wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:13am:
Rumpy wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:10am:
Have to agree HC. Very interesting mix there, be nice to see them working together for the best outcome.


Perhaps there is a brighter side to AATH. A mixed group such as this with pressing financial and hunting interests should be able to raise considerable funding and form a formidable lobby group to stem the red tide.


The onus is now on the Tahr Foundation to use our plus $50k wisely and in the best interests of all Tahr hunters. They are a funny old mix of commercial and recreational interests - strange bed fellows who now have to pull together for the outcome with the most utility.

Its a strange situation because there's the GAC out there and sort of stranded on the sideline because of politics and a lack of funding, and you have got the Tahr Foundation with similar representation and now with funds to actually achieve something.

I think that the Tahr Foundation now need to step forward and tell us more about their intent and strategies, or if that would compromise them at least keep the funders regularly updated.


Rest assured BC, the GAC is very actively working with the Tahr Foundation, other hunting sector groups, DoC and the Minister to find a way through this. 

I would like to think the GAC could do something but as far as I have seen so far they are entirely toothless  Sad
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #104 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:15pm
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Even a couple of teeth can cause a great deal of pain.

  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #105 - Sep 22nd, 2018 at 11:02pm
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We are the Game animals councils teeth if we choose. If we choose to support it in enough numbers, it will have a bite.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #106 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 12:42am
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Shankspony wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 11:02pm:
We are the Game animals councils teeth if we choose. If we choose to support it in enough numbers, it will have a bite.


My point being that the GAC is strangled financially through the lack of a funding mechanism and on the face of it marginalised by their Minister.

It must be affecting their effectiveness.

I'm not sure what we can do to support them apart from with our voices.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #107 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:16am
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I'm only an occasional tahr hunter but having read this thread from start to finish I find it hard to see why people are so upset about the cull.
It seems that current numbers are well above the ceiling in the now expired tahr management plan. The fact that the numbers have grown to current levels suggest that all forms of control (rec, aerial, commercial guiding) aren't working. Something needs to happen.
I suspect people are opposed to the cull for philosophical, rather than objective reasons.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #108 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:26am
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BC wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 12:42am:
Shankspony wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 11:02pm:
We are the Game animals councils teeth if we choose. If we choose to support it in enough numbers, it will have a bite.


My point being that the GAC is strangled financially through the lack of a funding mechanism and on the face of it marginalised by their Minister.

It must be affecting their effectiveness.

I'm not sure what we can do to support them apart from with our voices.


Yes I agree. Rec hunters have to put aside their privilege of free hunting, and accept that if we wish our sport to be strong and healthy, that we will have to fund and join this organisation.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #109 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:27am
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:16am:
I'm only an occasional tahr hunter but having read this thread from start to finish I find it hard to see why people are so upset about the cull.


This is going to be good.

I don't think you'll find too many hunters that have an issue with a responsible cull of nannies and juvenile Tahr in areas where the concentrations are particularly high, but destroying pretty much the entire population (including bulls in areas accessible to foot hunters) based on incomplete science and a disregard for the input of those most affected is what's rightly got us up in arms.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #110 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:11am
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And that's my real objection.   Eugenie is a dictator spouting incomplete science as her justification and she's bypassing previously agreed arrangements on consultation in particular.
If she gets away with this, whats next?   More trampling on our rights as hunters.
She's out of control.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #111 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:23am
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Dangershaw wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:27am:
Backcountry Bob wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:16am:
I'm only an occasional tahr hunter but having read this thread from start to finish I find it hard to see why people are so upset about the cull.


This is going to be good.

I don't think you'll find too many hunters that have an issue with a responsible cull of nannies and juvenile Tahr in areas where the concentrations are particularly high, but destroying pretty much the entire population (including bulls in areas accessible to foot hunters) based on incomplete science and a disregard for the input of those most affected is what's rightly got us up in arms.


The fact no serious concerns were raised by hunters/hunting organisations about the size of the Tahr population over the last decade, or at least any that gathered such energy, have undermined our position unfortunately. All the points here were valid in 2008.

It’s a bit like the bursting of a share market bubble, isn’t it.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #112 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:35am
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:16am:
I'm only an occasional tahr hunter but having read this thread from start to finish I find it hard to see why people are so upset about the cull.
It seems that current numbers are well above the ceiling in the now expired tahr management plan. The fact that the numbers have grown to current levels suggest that all forms of control (rec, aerial, commercial guiding) aren't working. Something needs to happen.
I suspect people are opposed to the cull for philosophical, rather than objective reasons.


There’s bigger things at play here, the tahr aren’t out of control, now they are going after trout & salmon, the word is jet boating is next on the hit list, no more boating the hollyford, etc. There are some serious agendas at play here, pushed by F&B via the Greens who only represent 6% of the population.

The tahr plan is 25yrs old and out of date, DOC need to sit done with everyone and sort out a new one, then bring the numbers down to it, this slaughter is going to effect a lot of people’s livelihoods and recreation.


  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #113 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 9:15am
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has anyone else noticed the increased usage of the term pest free 2050 instead of the predator free 2050 goal being used. me thinks this a deviously cunning way to slowly introduce this idea to mainstream public Angry
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #114 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 1:24pm
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tim37 wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 9:15am:
has anyone else noticed the increased usage of the term pest free 2050 instead of the predator free 2050 goal being used. me thinks this a deviously cunning way to slowly introduce this idea to mainstream public Angry


why are they selective about which introduced animals they go after?  is it just 4 legged ones theyre after?  As ducks sparrows and lots of other birds are introduced some even with pest status like magpie etc.

if theyre gunna make a push against trout id be making a push against the birds and domestic cats
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #115 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 2:07pm
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Has someone mentioned to  Eugenie Sage that she is a introduced pest !!! And like all of us has a detrimental effect on the ecosystem!!
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #116 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 3:44pm
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gonehuntin wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 1:24pm:
tim37 wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 9:15am:
has anyone else noticed the increased usage of the term pest free 2050 instead of the predator free 2050 goal being used. me thinks this a deviously cunning way to slowly introduce this idea to mainstream public Angry


why are they selective about which introduced animals they go after?  is it just 4 legged ones theyre after?  As ducks sparrows and lots of other birds are introduced some even with pest status like magpie etc.

if theyre gunna make a push against trout id be making a push against the birds and domestic cats


Haha, we get the Timaru Herald at work and I was having a chat to a workmate about the tahr cull. He was of the opinion that the tahr are a pest and are probably ruining the ecosystem and kind of supported 'eradication'. When I mentioned that maybe we should get rid of all cats first he replied with " Oh no, no one is gunna kill my cat"   Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #117 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 3:58pm
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The Givealittle donation page shows Hunting and Fishing gave $10,000
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #118 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 4:10pm
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Very good.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #119 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 4:39pm
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Sorry guys, been kinda busy with the NZ Tahr Foundation and haven’t had a chance to answer a couple of the questions on here till now. Willie and I just finished an interview for TV1 news tonight, and Willie will be on TV1’s breakfast TV Show in the morning.
Firstly to answer Oscar’s questions – the Foundation was set up a couple of years ago as the vehicle for a herd of special interest for tahr – similar to the FWF and the Sika Foundation. It has representatives from all hunting organisations and unaffiliated hunters, Waro operators, high country farmers, Ngai Tahu, DoC and the Canterbury Conservation board. The Foundation has been dormant after the current Minister said there will be no herds of special interest under her watch. When this potential eradication plan disguised as a “control plan” came out earlier this week, we kicked the Foundation into gear as the obvious vehicle to run this media campaign and to manage the legal proceedings.
All we are asking is that the Department goes back to the drawing board, sits down with the GAC as the umbrella group to represent all interested parties, and comes up with a long term plan that looks after both the alpine vegetation and the hunting resource. Spend the money on the science it needs to manage this resource properly first – not spend all its budget launching into a culling regime based on guesstimates.

And rest assured, the GAC has been working furiously on this issue, putting together an alternative management plan, but as they are the Minister's advisors on game animal issues, they have to work through the departmental channels and cannot lobby against the Minister.
That's where we come in. Cheesy
Greg
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #120 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:14pm
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I beleive that this issue may be a defining one in the story of our game animals.

In the past we have been able to hide behind the genuine facts that they would never get everything and that commercial recovery had its ups and downs.  We have also had a generation of hunters who have never seen the bad old days.  I also think we have been lucky with conservation being focused on predators for the past decade.

The reality is we are at or very near the point where technology and funding is available to eradicate or lower game animal populations to levels where hunting is a waste of time.  I have heard a couple of times recently statements along the lines of the new technology making people very happy as land managers but very nervous as hunters.

Furthurmore we have perhaps gone down rabbitholes over the good times of the last 15 years arguing about AATH and whether someone who shoots a 10 inch bull is a good person or not.   What we havent done is ensure that there is a wider acceptance that there is a place for introduced animals in the first place.  To argue whether we should AATH or shoot a small bull at 800m we need huntable populations.  I think a lot of people just assumed that would be the case however my belief is that may not be the case much longer.

My personnal belief is that tahr control is a stalking horse for eradication in the future and where tahr go other game animals will follow.  I'm getting on a but now and at least have had a go but I beleive if younger guys and my kids are to have a chance at the things i have got to do then this will become a defining arguement around game animals in NZ.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #121 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:16pm
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From the Tahr Foundation FB page.
Wise words IMO

Quote:
The outrage felt by the hunting community over the directive of the Minister of Conservation is clear, but the battle for sensible management has only just begun. For us to demand “sensible” from the Minister, we ourselves must lead by example and show maturity in our communication. Let us remember what it is we aim to achieve, and we must continue to hold the high ground. We urge all interested parties to keep your heads and focus. We will need to work with the Department for sensible management to occur. Most people who work in our local DOC offices are good people and many support us in our cause. Many are the people who have fought for years to develop a positive relationship with hunters and do not wish to see their work undermined any more than we do. Everyone’s support in this cause is essential and most welcome, including those who work for DOC who recognise the importance of this resource to the New Zealand community and the enormous contribution hunters make to conservation nationwide.

So in short play hard, play smart but keep all action clean & fair. We do not condone any damage, vandalism or intimidation, it will only alienate people and weaken our cause. Remember - united we stand, divided we fall!

Keep up the pressure, spread the word, send submissions and let's hope this leads to sustainable management of our tahr resource going forward!

  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #122 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:44pm
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Having only just recently had the privilege to hunt these magestic game animals for the first time with my two young boys, I was literally humbled by the whole experience. As a North Island hunter heading South I had no real expectations or real appreciation for the size of the country or animals we were about to hunt. 10 days later we left with a complete newfound passion/addiction and I was so lucky to share this with my two boys. The mental and physical challenging country was the best I have seen and the environment these beautiful animals survive in was an unbelievable sight.
I am a hunter who absolutely lives for the mental and physical challenges that come with this passion. I love nothing more than a good load in my macpac cascade pushing the mind and body to places it hasn't been before. But I am also a conservationist and like most of us also have the upmost respect for our privilege of being in these hills. We clear tracks, do hut maintenance , pick up and remove any rubbish, set traps and help remove predictors and do our bit to keep game animal numbers reasonable while also providing an organic meat source to not only our family but to those less fortunate. I have seen first hand having had both my boys trudging the hills with me since they could first walk what it does for them. They are confident, strong minded, passionate and compassionate kids who challenge themselves in all aspects of their young lives. We live in a world full of technology which has its positives that's for sure, but we also have a high number of child obesity, mental health issues, and a lot of kids who can't even deal with the real world as they are stuck behind computers playing games to all hours of the night,  that could benefit from a passion like this. I'm not saying hunting will solve all these issues at all but I know the positives it has done for myself and my children, the memories and time spent together whilst gaining high fitness levels and mental strength is 100% proof of it and without it I don't know how I'd cope.....just the thought of it makes me shutter. We must all stick together on this as its so much more than just a couple of winging redneck hunters wanting free meat. For my family it's our way of life and a great one at it. It's growing my boys into fine young men with the values that we want in this country in the future......and what a sad waste of such amazing resources not to mention the effect it will have on many peoples business and livelyhoods.
I will do my part to keep my voice strong and my money going towards helping this fight as this IS our passion and we love these mountains and all they provide more than anything.

Matt
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #123 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 7:46am
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creed wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 5:58pm:
Here's a reply to a letter sent to Simon Bridges, the Opposition.


Dear Greig   


Thank you for your email regarding the Himalayan Tahr cull.

Fishing, hunting, and outdoor recreation are part of New Zealand’s unique way of life. National believes in a pragmatic approach to conservation, and the recreation sector plays an important role in this.

With respect to Tahr control, the Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage must ensure that the Himalayan Tahr Control Plan 1993 is still fit for purpose. National has called for a stop of the cull, until the Department has had a chance to consult with the hunting industry and recreational hunters properly. 

For your information, please see the Press Release from Nationals’ Conservation Spokesperson Sarah Dowie which outlines National’s position on this issue at: https://www.national.org.nz/cut_the_cull_minister_sage

National’s Bluegreen approach is about having recreationalists more directly involved and in getting sector groups like recreational and commercial hunters around the table to resolve matters such as Himalayan Tahr.

Thank you for taking the time to write – I value hearing from all New Zealanders on this matter.


Yours sincerely


Simon Bridges
Leader of the Opposition

so where was simon no brigdes for the last ten years while this problem was being  created on their watch
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #124 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 7:50am
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Pollies will always say what you want to hear especially in opposition take National response with a grain of salt.
Where is Winston Wink???
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #125 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 9:15am
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https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/eradication-not-just-cull-fierce-res...
Willie Duley on behalf of the NZ Tahr Foundation speaking on TV1 breakfast
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #126 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 9:37am
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Good on the Duleys for stepping up to the plate. Their experience in front of the camera will pay dividends, as its not just what you say, but equally how you say it when it comes to the 12 second sound bites the media love to capture. They come across as rational, believable, passionate spokespeople for the resource. With a bit of legislation thrown in for good measure.
+1 for more crowd funding Smiley
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #127 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 10:14am
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Quote:
Sorry guys, been kinda busy with the NZ Tahr Foundation and haven’t had a chance to answer a couple of the questions on here till now. Willie and I just finished an interview for TV1 news tonight, and Willie will be on TV1’s breakfast TV Show in the morning.
Firstly to answer Oscar’s questions – the Foundation was set up a couple of years ago as the vehicle for a herd of special interest for tahr – similar to the FWF and the Sika Foundation. It has representatives from all hunting organisations and unaffiliated hunters, Waro operators, high country farmers, Ngai Tahu, DoC and the Canterbury Conservation board. The Foundation has been dormant after the current Minister said there will be no herds of special interest under her watch. When this potential eradication plan disguised as a “control plan” came out earlier this week, we kicked the Foundation into gear as the obvious vehicle to run this media campaign and to manage the legal proceedings.
All we are asking is that the Department goes back to the drawing board, sits down with the GAC as the umbrella group to represent all interested parties, and comes up with a long term plan that looks after both the alpine vegetation and the hunting resource. Spend the money on the science it needs to manage this resource properly first – not spend all its budget launching into a culling regime based on guesstimates.

And rest assured, the GAC has been working furiously on this issue, putting together an alternative management plan, but as they are the Minister's advisors on game animal issues, they have to work through the departmental channels and cannot lobby against the Minister.


Good works guys saw the interview this morning, thanks for all the efforts here  Smiley
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #128 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 11:02am
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Some good words spoken there by Willie getting the truth out there. good job
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #129 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 8:29am
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Just thinking out loud, but I get a little uneasy when I see statements like this picked up by the news as the headline:

Quote:
Each bull tahr is worth $14,000 alone to the economy. In the first cull, they propose to shoot 3000 tahr, if you do the maths, that's $42m worth of bull tahr left to rot on the hillside.


Is primarily framing the debate as being about the commercial value of tahr a mistake? I know that wont be the intention but thats how its being reported. And I doubt its important to Sage, during the GAC bill she said this:

Quote:
This bill is primarily about catering to a small group that can afford to pay for helicopters and guides to go trophy hunting. It is about giving them management control and considerable influence over the management of conservation land. The Government’s Supplementary Order Paper 395, by stripping out of the bill any references to recreational hunting, makes that quite clear. This bill is likely to make it both more expensive and more bureaucratic for Kiwis to go hunting.


Suspect she'll happily frame this as wealthy guides asking for preferential treatment over the rec hunter and other NZers if she can

To me, the order of priority of arguments is:

1) Sustainability of the environment in the tahr range
2) The herd size/density that meets 1)
3) Lastly, how many tahr can be killed each year according to 1) and 2).

I know the protection of tahr habitat has been mentioned, I just feel it should be the primary thing all of us focus on. Rec and commercial kill will just have to fit with that.

And then we have to sort out whether rec hunter will have the number of bulls we kill limited to provide for commercial hunting   Smiley

  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #130 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 9:59am
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Oscar wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 8:29am:
Just thinking out loud, but I get a little uneasy when I see statements like this picked up by the news as the headline:

Quote:
Each bull tahr is worth $14,000 alone to the economy. In the first cull, they propose to shoot 3000 tahr, if you do the maths, that's $42m worth of bull tahr left to rot on the hillside.


Is primarily framing the debate as being about the commercial value of tahr a mistake? I know that wont be the intention but thats how its being reported. And I doubt its important to Sage, during the GAC bill she said this:

Quote:
This bill is primarily about catering to a small group that can afford to pay for helicopters and guides to go trophy hunting. It is about giving them management control and considerable influence over the management of conservation land. The Government’s Supplementary Order Paper 395, by stripping out of the bill any references to recreational hunting, makes that quite clear. This bill is likely to make it both more expensive and more bureaucratic for Kiwis to go hunting.


Suspect she'll happily frame this as wealthy guides asking for preferential treatment over the rec hunter and other NZers if she can

To me, the order of priority of arguments is:

1) Sustainability of the environment in the tahr range
2) The herd size/density that meets 1)
3) Lastly, how many tahr can be killed each year according to 1) and 2).

I know the protection of tahr habitat has been mentioned, I just feel it should be the primary thing all of us focus on. Rec and commercial kill will just have to fit with that.

And then we have to sort out whether rec hunter will have the number of bulls we kill limited to provide for commercial hunting   Smiley



Yes, the framework you outline should be axiomatic, Oscar.

But what I do wonder also is whether we will get to where we want to be by always being so rational, objective, and reasonable? Not sure we see much of that from the 'other side', and perhaps more particularly those in the beltway who appear to get to make the rules ..... ?
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #131 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 10:09am
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+1 For the Duley team, they present well.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #132 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 10:16am
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However bear in mind that the Minister has some pretty solid legislative backing for Tahr control within the Mt Cook National Park.

The National Parks Act 1952 section 3.2 (b) states
Except where the Authority otherwise determines,
the native flora and fauna of the Parks
shall as far as possible be preserved and the
introduced flora and fauna shall as far as
possible be exterminated
and

The General Policy for National Parks states
4.3(d) National park biosecurity and pest management should give priority to:
i) preventing introduced plants and animals becoming established,
including illegal and inadvertent transfers;
ii) eradicating new incursions of introduced plants and animals, where
practicable;
iii) eradicating, where practicable, and containing and reducing the
range of established introduced plants and animals; and
iv) controlling widespread introduced species where necessary to
maintain the general welfare of national park indigenous species,
habitats and ecosystems or to maintain scenic and landform values
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #133 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 11:30am
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #134 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 12:52pm
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Max wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 11:30am:


That’s good, will prove she hasn’t consulted
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #135 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 4:00pm
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And........


https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=202920


and interesting to see also the 'hunters friends' from NZ First actively supporting the current Minister on this matter!  Grin Grin
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #136 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 4:42pm
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Its going to be a fight to the bitter end.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #137 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 5:30pm
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 10:16am:
However bear in mind that the Minister has some pretty solid legislative backing for Tahr control within the Mt Cook National Park.

The National Parks Act 1952 section 3.2 (b) states
Except where the Authority otherwise determines,
the native flora and fauna of the Parks
shall as far as possible be preserved and the
introduced flora and fauna shall as far as
possible be exterminated
and

The General Policy for National Parks states
4.3(d) National park biosecurity and pest management should give priority to:
i) preventing introduced plants and animals becoming established,
including illegal and inadvertent transfers;
ii) eradicating new incursions of introduced plants and animals, where
practicable;
iii) eradicating, where practicable, and containing and reducing the
range of established introduced plants and animals; and
iv) controlling widespread introduced species where necessary to
maintain the general welfare of national park indigenous species,
habitats and ecosystems or to maintain scenic and landform values


Some laws, rules and regulations could probably be looked at - such as that old English one whereby 'it is illegal to sell eggs on a Sunday'.
That law applies to NZ also.


  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #138 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 5:31pm
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just keep firing off letters ive sent off a large number in the last day on several issues to a number of mp particularly the green party, that its about implementing fair policys for everyone on a number of outdoor issues
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #139 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 5:49pm
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My new favorite pass time is watching the "givealittle" page. Almost at $120,000 now. I am amazed at the number of people that donate $100 that is quite a sum of money.
Good on them all, my donation was much more modest.
Still good on everyone actually keep it cranking.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #140 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 6:10pm
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Could get links to work so long hand option.
25 September 2018





Dear NZDA members



You are all probably well aware now of the dilemma all recreational hunters are facing in regard to possible diminishing recreational hunting opportunities for us "Kiwis". The move by the current Minister of Conservation to order her department (DOC) to carry out large scale search and destroy operations on Himalayan tahr BEFORE having discussions with stakeholder groups such as NZDA is quite unprecedented . The message it sends to all recreational hunters is that this type of operation may be just the "tip of the Iceberg" with other wholesale slaughter of game animals e.g. Fiordland wapiti/deer, - Kaimanawa/Kaweka sika deer - next in line. Minister Sage has already indicated that there will be no recognition of Herds of Special interest on her watch- and as these herds have relatively defined areas, they may be next on the list.


For recreational hunters who have a real love of the outdoors and are often involved in volunteer work helping with trap lines- rat mice stoat control- hut maintenance- track clearing etc-all activities assisting DOC , it comes as real "kick in the guts" to be threatened with the demise of our beloved game animals by a government department that gets so much assistance from hunters.


In recent years, NZDA has been admirably represented by Bill O'Leary on the Tahr Liaison committee, Snow Hewetson on the Tahr Foundation, together with the following persons( often wearing multiple hats)Kaylyn and Marcus Pinney, David Hodder, Gordon George and Greg Duley. The association acknowledges and thanks each of you for your untiring efforts.


So we will fight back!! Enough of the backroom talk seeking to come to an understanding/trade-off of our rights as NZ citizens to freely use the Conservation Estate. We WILL oppose unnecessary 1080 poison drops on our game animals and we WILL vigorously oppose the unconsulted decimation of the tahr herd. We as stakeholders all agree that tahr numbers are too high but also agree that a revised reduction of tahr numbers spread over a three-year period is a more desirable and herd sustainable option. If it means that, a court injunction needs to be sought- so be it. Our future as a hunting organisation representing not only our NZDA members but ALL recreational hunters is on the line. We must make a stand now and fight for our rights. Obviously such a legal stand is going to cost and so all NZDA members are asked to "give a little" to help the association meet pending court costs. Take ownership of this problem please- empower yourself as an NZDA member to be part of the move to fight for our hunting rights. Our future is at stake- we CANNOT afford to lose now!!




New Zealand Deerstalkers’ Association Inc

3 Collina Terrace, Thorndon Wellington  PO Box 12015, Thorndon, Wellington 6144 Phone:  04 499 6163  Fax:  04 472 5976  Email:info@deerstalkers.org.nz  Website: http://www.deerstalkers.org.nz

To make your donation, please click on the following link- to the Tahr Foundation- https://www.facebook.com/nztahrfoundation/. Every donation is going to count.  In the meantime, your National Executive will continue to meet with other stakeholders such as SCI, Tahr Foundation, Professional Guides, to bring further pressure on an obstinate minister, that there are more desirable ways to achieve tahr density levels acceptable to all parties.

So please- become involved- be part of the solution-make a donation to the fighting fund.




Sincerely yours




Trevor Chappell National President NZ Deerstalkers’ Assn
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #141 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 6:12pm
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Petition from the national party to stop the cull.

Sign up

https://www.national.org.nz/stop_the_tahr_cull?recruiter_id=737944
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #142 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 6:13pm
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Couldn't get links to work so posted both letters.
24 September 2018


Andy Roberts                                                                                                                                               Director Operations – Eastern South Island                                                                                   Department of Conservation


Dear Mr Roberts

Re – Revised Letter - Proposal for Reducing Tahr Population

I acknowledge your revised letter dated 2018 and the clarification of some issues that arose from the earlier letter.

The amended approach does little to allay the concerns that were expressed by hunter representatives at the 29 August meeting.

• The intention to deliberately take bulls (as opposed to unintentionally) was very clearly opposed by hunter representatives on the grounds that - -it was a departure from past practice -it did nothing to reduce the breeding capacity of the herd -it would reduce the incentive for continued recreational hunter activity in tahr hunting -it would have drastic consequences for the commercial guiding sector

• The intention to remove animals from above 305 meters targets terrain accessible to recreational hunters and is at the very least a mis allocation and waste of resources.

• The requirement affecting recreational hunters to provide the GPS location for each kill is an impractical imposition when a simple kill return in a defined location would have sufficed.

• There is no reference to the questioning of the continued relevance of the 10,000 upper limit given the growing hunter pressure on what is an internationally recognised trophy herd.

• The urgency with which this operation is to be implemented given the short comings of the research and the paucity of consultation over recent years raises serious questions as to the motivation behind the decision making in the operation.




New Zealand Deerstalkers’ Association Inc

3 Collina Terrace, Thorndon Wellington  PO Box 12015, Thorndon, Wellington 6144 Phone:  04 499 6163  Fax:  04 472 5976  Email:info@deerstalkers.org.nz  Website: http://www.deerstalkers.org.nz
In conclusion  The statement made on behalf of NZDA at the 29 August meeting that any move to target bulls ‘would see NZDA step away’ has been endorsed by the NZDA national executive and therefore NZDA will not support the plan in its current form and objective.



Sincerely







Bill O’Leary National Executive New Zealand Deerstalkers’ Association.

  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #143 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 7:03pm
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Looks like the NZDA  have woken up.
Quote:
Enough of the backroom talk

Good to see they recognize this is just the beginning(by ms Sage)
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #144 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 7:19pm
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Agreed TH and they bring a big war chest too. Sage is in for a knock down drag out fight this time when you consider the crowd funding from hunters on this. $120,000 + so far.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #145 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 7:59pm
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I'm fully with Oscar here . . . the case can be argued on several fronts, but we should focus on informed expert opinion arriving at a herd/size density for a sustainable environment and herd in a defined NZ Tahr range.

Oscar wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 8:29am:
Just thinking out loud, but I get a little uneasy when I see statements like this picked up by the news as the headline:

Quote:
Each bull tahr is worth $14,000 alone to the economy. In the first cull, they propose to shoot 3000 tahr, if you do the maths, that's $42m worth of bull tahr left to rot on the hillside.


Is primarily framing the debate as being about the commercial value of tahr a mistake? I know that wont be the intention but thats how its being reported. And I doubt its important to Sage, during the GAC bill she said this:

Quote:
This bill is primarily about catering to a small group that can afford to pay for helicopters and guides to go trophy hunting. It is about giving them management control and considerable influence over the management of conservation land. The Government’s Supplementary Order Paper 395, by stripping out of the bill any references to recreational hunting, makes that quite clear. This bill is likely to make it both more expensive and more bureaucratic for Kiwis to go hunting.


Suspect she'll happily frame this as wealthy guides asking for preferential treatment over the rec hunter and other NZers if she can

To me, the order of priority of arguments is:

1) Sustainability of the environment in the tahr range
2) The herd size/density that meets 1)
3) Lastly, how many tahr can be killed each year according to 1) and 2).

I know the protection of tahr habitat has been mentioned, I just feel it should be the primary thing all of us focus on. Rec and commercial kill will just have to fit with that.

And then we have to sort out whether rec hunter will have the number of bulls we kill limited to provide for commercial hunting   Smiley



Unfortunately, arguing the Bull tahr case is too easily deflected by a counter argument of pandering to an industry group who make money off Bulls and because of their 'farming' of animals have endangered the environment and conservation goals.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #146 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 8:14pm
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hawken 50 wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 6:10pm:
Dear NZDA members



You are all probably well aware now of the dilemma all recreational hunters are facing in regard to possible diminishing recreational hunting opportunities for us "Kiwis". The move by the current Minister of Conservation to order her department (DOC) to carry out large scale search and destroy operations on Himalayan tahr BEFORE having discussions with stakeholder groups such as NZDA is quite unprecedented . The message it sends to all recreational hunters is that this type of operation may be just the "tip of the Iceberg" with other wholesale slaughter of game animals e.g. Fiordland wapiti/deer, - Kaimanawa/Kaweka sika deer - next in line. Minister Sage has already indicated that there will be no recognition of Herds of Special interest on her watch- and as these herds have relatively defined areas, they may be next on the list.


For recreational hunters who have a real love of the outdoors and are often involved in volunteer work helping with trap lines- rat mice stoat control- hut maintenance- track clearing etc-all activities assisting DOC , it comes as real "kick in the guts" to be threatened with the demise of our beloved game animals by a government department that gets so much assistance from hunters.


In recent years, NZDA has been admirably represented by Bill O'Leary on the Tahr Liaison committee, Snow Hewetson on the Tahr Foundation, together with the following persons( often wearing multiple hats)Kaylyn and Marcus Pinney, David Hodder, Gordon George and Greg Duley. The association acknowledges and thanks each of you for your untiring efforts.


So we will fight back!! Enough of the backroom talk seeking to come to an understanding/trade-off of our rights as NZ citizens to freely use the Conservation Estate. We WILL oppose unnecessary 1080 poison drops on our game animals and we WILL vigorously oppose the unconsulted decimation of the tahr herd. We as stakeholders all agree that tahr numbers are too high but also agree that a revised reduction of tahr numbers spread over a three-year period is a more desirable and herd sustainable option. If it means that, a court injunction needs to be sought- so be it. Our future as a hunting organisation representing not only our NZDA members but ALL recreational hunters is on the line. We must make a stand now and fight for our rights. Obviously such a legal stand is going to cost and so all NZDA members are asked to "give a little" to help the association meet pending court costs. Take ownership of this problem please- empower yourself as an NZDA member to be part of the move to fight for our hunting rights. Our future is at stake- we CANNOT afford to lose now!!




New Zealand Deerstalkers’ Association Inc

3 Collina Terrace, Thorndon Wellington  PO Box 12015, Thorndon, Wellington 6144 Phone:  04 499 6163  Fax:  04 472 5976  Email:info@deerstalkers.org.nz  Website: http://www.deerstalkers.org.nz

To make your donation, please click on the following link- to the Tahr Foundation- https://www.facebook.com/nztahrfoundation/. Every donation is going to count.  In the meantime, your National Executive will continue to meet with other stakeholders such as SCI, Tahr Foundation, Professional Guides, to bring further pressure on an obstinate minister, that there are more desirable ways to achieve tahr density levels acceptable to all parties.

So please- become involved- be part of the solution-make a donation to the fighting fund.




Sincerely yours




Trevor Chappell National President NZ Deerstalkers’ Assn
                   



I'm one of them and I'm so f**kin proud of the buggers I'm gonna flick them more dosh than I can afford.

And - I have never, nor will I ever shoot a thar.

And - I don't give a shit about all the arguments - all I need to know is she is WRONG !

  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #147 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 11:02am
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Hm:

Quote:
plan to cull thousands of Himalayan Tahr from South Island mountains will go ahead despite its start being postponed this weekend.

The Department of Conservation announced plans to cull up to 17,500 tahr on September 14 as it attempts to get the population, estimated at 35,000, down to the Himalayan Tahr Management Plan's target of 10,000 on conservation land.

Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage confirmed in a statement to Stuff on Thursday that the control operation is proceeding but numbers will be reduced. The statement did not reveal what the reduced number would be and the minister's office has been approached for those figures.

Sage said she will meet with the Tahr Liaison Group next week to discuss the finer details and the summer control operation will be proceeding as planned after that.

  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #148 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 12:43pm
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Surely that shows a pre-determination before consultation starts.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #149 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 1:40pm
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What happened to this announcement. Are we living in the age of alternative truth.

Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage has been forced to postpone the mass tahr cull she ordered to start this weekend because of huge pressure from recreational hunting and tourism industry, National’s Conservation spokesperson Sarah Dowie says.
  

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #150 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 1:46pm
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Agreed Headcase. Lets hope for some clarity asap.
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #151 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 1:56pm
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I donated last night.
Was only a modest amount by there’s more to come.
I have a feeling it’s gonna be a long fight.
Trout will be next.
Then Wapiti.
Then the Kaimanawa horses.
Then she’ll give the whole Kaimanawa/kaweka a dose of 1080 to thin out the Sika.
Then when she knows her times up she’ll bomb Te Urewera.
She MUST be stopped now!!!
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #152 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 2:35pm
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Shankspony wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 6:12pm:
Petition from the national party to stop the cull.

Sign up

https://www.national.org.nz/stop_the_tahr_cull?recruiter_id=737944


Done ! , everybody in the hunting fraternity should make their friends aware of this petition. Also donate to the NZ Tahr Foundation appeal on Givealittle.
  

Get as close as you can, then get a bit closer.
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #153 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 3:50pm
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While this might be a worthy cause I suspect this is cynical politicing by National. I don't think National advanced the cause of game animal management much at all during their recent nine years in government other than set up the GAC which they had to as part of the coalition agreement with Peter Dunne.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #154 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 3:58pm
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
While this might be a worthy cause I suspect this is cynical politicing by National. I don't think National advanced the cause of game animal management much at all during their recent nine years in government other than set up the GAC which they had to as part of the coalition agreement with Peter Dunne.


cant trust any of them

But if you want to retain the heritage of hunting, any govt with the greens in it, cant be trusted. And NZ First it seems

We will realize just how much Peter Dunne did for hunting, one day.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #155 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 4:38pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 1:40pm:
What happened to this announcement. Are we living in the age of alternative truth.

Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage has been forced to postpone the mass tahr cull she ordered to start this weekend because of huge pressure from recreational hunting and tourism industry, National’s Conservation spokesperson Sarah Dowie says.


We are living in an age where a politicians words are worthless.
Winstons "Gone by lunchtime" comment about 1080 another case in point.
And there's not a word that'll ever come out of Sages mouth that any one in the hunting world can ever believe again.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #156 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 4:52pm
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If any fishnhunt members are looking for specific info from Minister Sage or DOC generally, they are required to provide info if someone requests it. If you send an email with "I request this under the official information act" they have follow through, and it's a bit of a pain in the ass as no standard reply will satisfy.

https://www.dia.govt.nz/Official-Information-Act-requests
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #157 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 5:38pm
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
While this might be a worthy cause I suspect this is cynical politicing by National. I don't think National advanced the cause of game animal management much at all during their recent nine years in government other than set up the GAC which they had to as part of the coalition agreement with Peter Dunne.


While I largely agree I think National was just ambivilent/unaware of game management.  However they didi allow GAC and i do not belevie the FWF would have got as far as they havr under a labour/green government.  At least things fidnt get worse which is as good as i ever hope for from politicians.

Personally I would take disinterest over outright hostility as displayed by the the current lot especially the greens.  I think Labour would probably largely follow Nationals example without greens.  NZF lead on game animals was mainly from Richard Prosser who did not make it back into parliment.




  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #158 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 7:35pm
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
While this might be a worthy cause I suspect this is cynical politicing by National. I don't think National advanced the cause of game animal management much at all during their recent nine years in government other than set up the GAC which they had to as part of the coalition agreement with Peter Dunne.

Correct.
Now is the time to be pinning them into making promises in exchange for our votes.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #159 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 10:20pm
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Well even if the cull has been postponed and she plans on having a meeting with the Tahr Liaison Group it obvious from this she is going in with preconceived ideas and outcomes

https://www.parliament.nz/en/WatchParliament/PlayVideo/OnDemand/203088

https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/107410841/tahr-cull-postponed-by-cons...
  

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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #160 - Sep 28th, 2018 at 6:12am
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bullerexpress wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 5:38pm:
Backcountry Bob wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
While this might be a worthy cause I suspect this is cynical politicing by National. I don't think National advanced the cause of game animal management much at all during their recent nine years in government other than set up the GAC which they had to as part of the coalition agreement with Peter Dunne.


While I largely agree I think National was just ambivilent/unaware of game management.  However they didi allow GAC and i do not belevie the FWF would have got as far as they havr under a labour/green government.  At least things fidnt get worse which is as good as i ever hope for from politicians.

Personally I would take disinterest over outright hostility as displayed by the the current lot especially the greens.  I think Labour would probably largely follow Nationals example without greens.  NZF lead on game animals was mainly from Richard Prosser who did not make it back into parliment.





Yep Ambivalence is the best we have been able to achieve in a long time.

But now we have a crack in the door and Some national MPS are courting the hunting public more than i have ever seen.

That crack needs to stay open and dialogue to be maintained and not just about better hunting but also more importantly on how Rec hunters can do more, be allowed to do more On keeping herds managed.
First we have to weather the next 2 years
Then we have to hope that the greens don't find themselves in a similar position to what they are now.
If you think a first term green government is bad- look at history- crazy dont appear till second term.
  
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Re: Tahr eradication proposed by the minister
Reply #161 - Sep 28th, 2018 at 7:12am
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What is very interesting but worrying is the fact in all of this there has been no mention YET of Tahr on private and leasehold lands.!
Is Sage gunna take on each property on an individual basis, or make a collective statement?
Is Sage going to only focus on public lands as she has no hold on others, or game parks, hunting blocks, private lands.?
With leaseholders LINZ have contracts the allow recreation permits.
With those LINZ charge a percentage of 6% of profits that are made, thats inside a game estate or outside it.!
In some cases this is tens of thousands of $.
These contracts can be from 5 years up to 25 years,

So if your instructed to shoot , kill your Thar, witch in turn collapses your business are they , Sage liable?

IM interested on what the views are ?

As a side knote, as a farmer, permit holder if I buy a Red stag trophy for 20, 000$ then onsell this to a client from USA for 35,000, we as a holder of this permit pay 6% of the 35,000 to LINZ. Undecided
  
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