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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Birds Bludgeoned to Death? (Read 10064 times)
Salmoner
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #45 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 4:31pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 1:11pm:
headcase wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 11:56am:
Vulcan wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 11:29am:
Maddoghunter wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 10:23pm:
I doubt kereru or seagulls would even eat 1080 though.
More likely road kill that were brought in as props.


Whenever I've been through a 1080 area it's the berry eating birds such as kereru that are left. Always give me a hell of a fright, as it's so quiet, then a kereru gets spooked and makes a huge kerfuffle as it flies off.


Gulls and all seabirds are prime targets for secondary poisoning. There have been 10's of thousands of gulls, terns, eagles, etc recorded as dying from eating poisoned rat carcasses where island eradication has been attempted.


Black back gulls and Hawks are prime targets for secondary poisoning. .  There are always a lot of hawks fall victim. They do not need to see a dead rabbit to locate it. They will smell it on the wind and go so far as to enter a warren a short distance, fetch the rabbit and back out again. I have observed this more than once.

Ive been told our native NZ Falcon has other feeding habits and catches live prey before carrion so is not so susceptible. Can anyone can confirm that?

Also

http://envirolink.govt.nz/assets/Envirolink/1250-MLDC82-Non-target-risks-of-usin...


After they started poisoning at Mapara the falcons lived, continued to nest and lay eggs, however, the eggs wouldn't hatch. They tested the eggs and found poison residue. The theory is that falcon were catching sick, poisoned rats, received sub-lethal poisoning and the poison was passed onto the egg which then made the egg infertile.

An unintended negative consequence, that DOC knows about and has not reported to the NZ Public.


What poison was used and what year was this carried out in ?

Got a link ? it would be useful.
  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #46 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 5:13pm
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Salmoner wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 4:31pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 1:11pm:
headcase wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 11:56am:
Vulcan wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 11:29am:
Maddoghunter wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 10:23pm:
I doubt kereru or seagulls would even eat 1080 though.
More likely road kill that were brought in as props.


Whenever I've been through a 1080 area it's the berry eating birds such as kereru that are left. Always give me a hell of a fright, as it's so quiet, then a kereru gets spooked and makes a huge kerfuffle as it flies off.


Gulls and all seabirds are prime targets for secondary poisoning. There have been 10's of thousands of gulls, terns, eagles, etc recorded as dying from eating poisoned rat carcasses where island eradication has been attempted.


Black back gulls and Hawks are prime targets for secondary poisoning. .  There are always a lot of hawks fall victim. They do not need to see a dead rabbit to locate it. They will smell it on the wind and go so far as to enter a warren a short distance, fetch the rabbit and back out again. I have observed this more than once.

Ive been told our native NZ Falcon has other feeding habits and catches live prey before carrion so is not so susceptible. Can anyone can confirm that?

Also

http://envirolink.govt.nz/assets/Envirolink/1250-MLDC82-Non-target-risks-of-usin...


After they started poisoning at Mapara the falcons lived, continued to nest and lay eggs, however, the eggs wouldn't hatch. They tested the eggs and found poison residue. The theory is that falcon were catching sick, poisoned rats, received sub-lethal poisoning and the poison was passed onto the egg which then made the egg infertile.

An unintended negative consequence, that DOC knows about and has not reported to the NZ Public.


What poison was used and what year was this carried out in ?

Got a link ? it would be useful.


The successful trapping operation, that you will find no mention of in the DOC rewritten Mapara history, took place in 1988. In 1990 and 1991 there were 2 aerial 1080 operations, both of which failed to reach the possum density targets. There was another aerial 1080 operation in 1992 with the monitoring being not good enough to claim success, one way or the other, however, after 2 aerial 1080 failures, in the preceding 2 years, it is a pretty safe bet that poison-shyness would have ensured another 1080 failure.

DOC proceeded to not only use aerial 1080, they also used brodificoum in bait stations as well as employing wage labour to lay traps. DOC has claimed that all the Mapara poisoning work was successful and Mapara was used as one of the main original examples to promote aerial 1080 to protect native birds.

Talk to Phil Bradfield, he was the bird man when we did the trapping, his work identified the poisoned falcon eggs and he did the prey switching work as well doing the introduced carnivore poison kill monitoring that showed that no stoats, cats and ferrets were killed during the poison operations.
  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #47 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 5:21pm
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think brodifacoum would be more likely culprit for the infertile eggs.
  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #48 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 5:39pm
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Hard to believe no ferrits were killed. How do they know that? Genuine question. Not a wind up Smiley
  

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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #49 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 6:26pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 5:39pm:
Hard to believe no ferrits were killed. How do they know that? Genuine question. Not a wind up Smiley


They trap monitored before and after...Caught the same numbers both times.

They kept the animals and went through the gut contents to identify what they were eating and proved that the prey switching did happen.

Ferrets aren't much of a problem in the bush and are only really caught in open environments or along the bush edge.
  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #50 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 7:12pm
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Ferrets aren't much of a problem in the bush and are only really caught in open environments or along the bush edge.

umm don't think so, Marty

whats your definition of "in the bush"

Ferrets killed off a lot of kiwi in Pukaha Mt bruce,  "in the bush"
  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #51 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 7:44pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 7:12pm:
Quote:
Ferrets aren't much of a problem in the bush and are only really caught in open environments or along the bush edge.

umm don't think so, Marty

whats your definition of "in the bush"

Ferrets killed off a lot of kiwi in Pukaha Mt bruce,  "in the bush"


We know what you are up to TH...Pick up on ferrets and distract from the guts of what happened at Mapara. You will not talk about failed 1080 operations, nor the fact that stoats and cats were not killed, or, prey switching and the amount of money spent at Mapara to try to cover up the original 1080 failures.

The same thing is happening at Mt. Bruce....Annual 1080 operations, predators still alive after all the 1080, needing trappers to come and clean up from the failed 1080 operations....Native birds dying from both predation and poisoning by-kill.

Mapara poisoning started 28 years ago and, supposedly, the 1080 industry has got past the need for the very intensive poisoning, the poisoning of native birds, 1080 is now supposed to kill all introduced predators without the need for trappers...AND YET...What is happening, today, at Mt Bruce is much the same as happened at Mapara, 3 decades ago, with the much the same results regarding poor target animal kills and poisoned native birds.
  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #52 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 8:14pm
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ok...I BELIEVE the ferret is more inclinded to live in areas where rabbit numbers are high and its stoats n weasels in the bush...smaller animal requires less tucker to survive/smaller prey is enough......and they live in the crappy stuff same as rats.Ive seen weasels n stoats out in the open but not ferrets in the bush,cats Ive seen and shot all over the show(the .270 win IS NOT OVERKILL)
  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #53 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 8:56pm
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We know what you are up to TH...Pick up on ferrets and distract from the guts of what happened at Mapara. You will not talk about failed 1080 operations, nor the fact that stoats and cats were not killed, or, prey switching and the amount of money spent at Mapara to try to cover up the original 1080 failures.

The same thing is happening at Mt. Bruce....Annual 1080 operations, predators still alive after all the 1080, needing trappers to come and clean up from the failed 1080 operations....Native birds dying from both predation and poisoning by-kill.

Mapara poisoning started 28 years ago and, supposedly, the 1080 industry has got past the need for the very intensive poisoning, the poisoning of native birds, 1080 is now supposed to kill all introduced predators without the need for trappers...AND YET...What is happening, today, at Mt Bruce is much the same as happened at Mapara, 3 decades ago, with the much the same results regarding poor target animal kills and poisoned native birds.

here we go again.

As you well know, the predator problem at Mt Bruce was/is Ferrets. IN THE BUSH

That was my point

My only observation about your Mapara story, is yet again, its more "Marty Foote Facts".

From the one person with a vested interest in ground control

How do you know the alleged falcon egg issues is caused by 1080?
was it brodificum.?

As for Annual 1080 at Mt bruce. WTF are you on about?

In all the time I was involved in the  Mt bruce restoration, only ever ground control was done to control predators. That was my decision
The AHB 1080 was stopped when ground control to protect kaka, then kokako releases. Then kiwi

As usual, Marty, your talking rubbish, and expecting to be believed, - because you say its true





  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #54 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:09pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 5:13pm:
Salmoner wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 4:31pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 1:11pm:
headcase wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 12:50pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 11:56am:
Vulcan wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 11:29am:
Maddoghunter wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 10:23pm:
I doubt kereru or seagulls would even eat 1080 though.
More likely road kill that were brought in as props.


Whenever I've been through a 1080 area it's the berry eating birds such as kereru that are left. Always give me a hell of a fright, as it's so quiet, then a kereru gets spooked and makes a huge kerfuffle as it flies off.


Gulls and all seabirds are prime targets for secondary poisoning. There have been 10's of thousands of gulls, terns, eagles, etc recorded as dying from eating poisoned rat carcasses where island eradication has been attempted.


Black back gulls and Hawks are prime targets for secondary poisoning. .  There are always a lot of hawks fall victim. They do not need to see a dead rabbit to locate it. They will smell it on the wind and go so far as to enter a warren a short distance, fetch the rabbit and back out again. I have observed this more than once.

Ive been told our native NZ Falcon has other feeding habits and catches live prey before carrion so is not so susceptible. Can anyone can confirm that?

Also

http://envirolink.govt.nz/assets/Envirolink/1250-MLDC82-Non-target-risks-of-usin...


After they started poisoning at Mapara the falcons lived, continued to nest and lay eggs, however, the eggs wouldn't hatch. They tested the eggs and found poison residue. The theory is that falcon were catching sick, poisoned rats, received sub-lethal poisoning and the poison was passed onto the egg which then made the egg infertile.

An unintended negative consequence, that DOC knows about and has not reported to the NZ Public.


What poison was used and what year was this carried out in ?

Got a link ? it would be useful.


The successful trapping operation, that you will find no mention of in the DOC rewritten Mapara history, took place in 1988. In 1990 and 1991 there were 2 aerial 1080 operations, both of which failed to reach the possum density targets. There was another aerial 1080 operation in 1992 with the monitoring being not good enough to claim success, one way or the other, however, after 2 aerial 1080 failures, in the preceding 2 years, it is a pretty safe bet that poison-shyness would have ensured another 1080 failure.

DOC proceeded to not only use aerial 1080, they also used brodificoum in bait stations as well as employing wage labour to lay traps. DOC has claimed that all the Mapara poisoning work was successful and Mapara was used as one of the main original examples to promote aerial 1080 to protect native birds.

Talk to Phil Bradfield, he was the bird man when we did the trapping, his work identified the poisoned falcon eggs and he did the prey switching work as well doing the introduced carnivore poison kill monitoring that showed that no stoats, cats and ferrets were killed during the poison operations.


I have spoken to someone in the old firm and it went a bit like this..

Hes saying what .. LOL
Mapara ??!! Its one of the most well known case studies. They only used 0.08% 1080 baits, which was considered part of the problem. More importantly they did not pre-feed.

A paired trial that used 0.15% and pre-feed showed no declining kill.
https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/1959.pdf

Here is a bit you could read on falcons.
6.2 is the relevant section in which it says, after a pest drop bird numbers increase which means there is more food for falcons which aids there breeding.
Rodents are a low percentage of falcons diets. However there is a chance of secondary poisoning.
However it goes onto say "there is no evidence for breeding falcons being adversely affected by poisoning operations in there breeding territories"

https://www.doc.govt.nz/documents/science-and-technical/dsis84.pdf

What you are quoting was in 1988 ? my link is  1994 to 1998.




  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #55 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:25pm
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Dont Falcons mostly prey on birds on the wing?
  

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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #56 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:30pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:25pm:
Dont Falcons mostly prey on birds on the wing?


Yes.

http://nzbirdsonline.org.nz/species/new-zealand-falcon



  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #57 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 10:06pm
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Salmoner and TH.

Call me a liar now and you will be caught out in the future...It is your credibility that is at stake.

I cannot post links to many reports as they are internal DOC documents and were never publicly released. Although TH has posted a couple of reports that don't deal specifically with the Mapara 1080 failures and were written specifically, after the fact, to show 1080 in a positive light, there is a report that was written specifically about the 2 1080 failures in a row. TH should have known about the 1080 failures and the report written about the 1080 failures because of his managerial positions in NZFS and DOC.

Talk to Phil Bradfield about the studies and reports he was involved in and signed his name to. Simply because DOC didn't make the reports publicly available doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm glad that both of you have made the negative claims about my honesty, integrity and credibility. You can be rest assured that the truth will show that both of you were knowingly trying to defile both my credibility and honesty.

Hide behind your aliases for the time being...You may not have that luxury in the future when you will be called out to be accountable for your actions.

Headcase...I suggest that you call on TH and Salmoner to stop the personal attacks on my honesty and integrity and tell these "trolls" to stick to the points being debated. In particular, TH should use his, self proclaimed, expertise and lifetime working experience to do more than ridicule what trappers are capable of doing and over promoting what 1080 is capable of doing.
  
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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #58 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 10:40pm
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Ill do nothing either way. You both make claims that are opposoing in view and I have no way to know where the truth lies. TH appears to have been there at the time so your opposing assertion which you cannot back up is just as outragious to him as his is to you.

Interestingly, you refuse to publish your source material, I assume to protect your source, so  you recognize and accord your source the right to privacy , but deride all others who wish to remain anonamous but counter your assertions with their own version of events. Seems hypocratical to me.

Thats the way it is Marty. If you want to post diverging accounts of events that the open and public reports presented, then expect some pushback. Its your choice to have your say but dont expect everyone to just accept your version of the truth verbatim.  Smiley
  

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Re: Birds Bludgeoned to Death?
Reply #59 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 11:14pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 10:40pm:
Ill do nothing either way. You both make claims that are opposoing in view and I have no way to know where the truth lies. TH appears to have been there at the time so your opposing assertion which you cannot back up is just as outragious to him as his is to you.

Interestingly, you refuse to publish your source material, I assume to protect your source, so  you recognize and accord your source the right to privacy , but deride all others who wish to remain anonamous but counter your assertions with their own version of events. Seems hypocratical to me.

Thats the way it is Marty. If you want to post diverging accounts of events that the open and public reports presented, then expect some pushback. Its your choice to have your say but dont expect everyone to just accept your version of the truth verbatim.  Smiley


I've no problem with that Headcase...For the record I am unaware that TH was anywhere near Mapara, however, he should know the reports do exist...I have the reports and so does DOC and TH knows they do exist.

My word against his in this forum....I put it on public record that, either, TH is knowingly being untruthful, or, he is ignorant and cannot make claim to the expertise and knowledge he says backs his statements and credibility.

My source is DOC commissioned reports...I have made that quite clear...No privacy protection needed there....Please ensure that when the time is right you have all the forum information needed to hand over, in the same way you have handed over information to investigations in the past.
  
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