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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras (Read 4488 times)
Radar
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #75 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:42pm
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As far as my ascertation that Nugent and others agree that 1080 isnít effective for rat and mustelid control check out the same site quoted by huntnfish
http://www.1080science.co.nz/
Thereís a ton of info including DOC quotes thatíll astound you with their naivety around pests and control.
Instead of poo pooing it take time to read any of the scientific papers contained - quite scary really
  

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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #76 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:54pm
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Radar wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:42pm:
As far as my ascertation that Nugent and others agree that 1080 isnít effective for rat and mustelid control check out the same site quoted by huntnfish
http://www.1080science.co.nz/
Thereís a ton of info including DOC quotes thatíll astound you with their naivety around pests and control.
Instead of poo pooing it take time to read any of the scientific papers contained - quite scary really


Radar Graham Nuget says something bit different here
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12097338
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #77 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:43pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:54pm:
Radar wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:42pm:
As far as my ascertation that Nugent and others agree that 1080 isnít effective for rat and mustelid control check out the same site quoted by huntnfish
http://www.1080science.co.nz/
Thereís a ton of info including DOC quotes thatíll astound you with their naivety around pests and control.
Instead of poo pooing it take time to read any of the scientific papers contained - quite scary really


Radar Graham Nuget says something bit different here
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12097338


There are some major problems with the ZIP programme and the results being claimed.

The Arawhata operation, last year, claimed that the "1080-to-Zero" and "Double-Dose 1080" (or whatever their marketing catchphrases were) eradicated possums and the rats would need further work.

This new trial, with the marketing catchphrases, "one-two 1080 punch", "rapid repeat" and "duel 1080" claims to have eradicated rats and failed on possums.

And next year, they are planning this experiment, that has failed in two successive trials to achieve the stated outcomes, on a much grander scale in an area where kea are present and they know kea will eat and die from eating 1080 baits and 1080 poisoned carcasses.

The ZIP propaganda also ignores the fact that all the captive possum 1080 poisoning trials have only ever achieved 80-90% possum kills.

DOC and OSPRI have made regular similar claims, over the last 30 years. about breakthroughs with 1080 delivery and evidence that possums and rats can be eliminated, to the point where no possums and rats can be found. All these claims have proven to be false, with many of the claims being supported with, what we know know to be, manipulated monitoring results that were deliberately designed to underestimate the surviving animal populations and over estimate the animal kills.

Why has the ZIP programme jumped from Mt, Taranaki to Arawhata River to New Creek and then onto the Kea Country next year?

Why don't they stick to one area, and risk totally stuffing up just one area, until they are absolutely, 100% sure they have eradicated the possums and rats?
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #78 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:47pm
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Radar wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:42pm:
As far as my ascertation that Nugent and others agree that 1080 isnít effective for rat and mustelid control check out the same site quoted by huntnfish
http://www.1080science.co.nz/
Thereís a ton of info including DOC quotes thatíll astound you with their naivety around pests and control.
Instead of poo pooing it take time to read any of the scientific papers contained - quite scary really


I found 1 quote that could of easily of been taken out of context, i would like to see the whole article. Who are  the others ?

See TH s post re Nugent and his ideas i am sure it isnt quite as you have painted it ?
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #79 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:50pm
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Why don't they stick to one area, and risk totally stuffing up just one area, until they are absolutely, 100% sure they have eradicated the possums and rats?


why cant a few on this forum stick to the topic instead of a 1080 and pro trapping rant at every opportunity

it was a simple post.
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #80 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:56pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:50pm:
Quote:
Why don't they stick to one area, and risk totally stuffing up just one area, until they are absolutely, 100% sure they have eradicated the possums and rats?


why cant a few on this forum stick to the topic instead of a 1080 and pro trapping rant at every opportunity

it was a simple post.


Yes, your post was a simple post. All it had was a link to an article that promotes the ZIP propaganda and all I did was comment on what ZIP has done and is planning to do.

The link you posted is:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12097338
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #81 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:02pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:56pm:
Tararua Hunter wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:50pm:
Quote:
Why don't they stick to one area, and risk totally stuffing up just one area, until they are absolutely, 100% sure they have eradicated the possums and rats?


why cant a few on this forum stick to the topic instead of a 1080 and pro trapping rant at every opportunity

it was a simple post.


Yes, your post was a simple post. All it had was a link to an article that promotes the ZIP propaganda and all I did was comment on what ZIP has done and is planning to do.

The link you posted is:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12097338


You will also note that I didn't even mention trapping and my comments were related only to the information, presented by you, and the information ZIP has already published about their programme that Nugent is involved with.
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #82 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:25am
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Marty, you donít get it

My (simple) original post was about a newsletter summary of the Landcare deer repellent trial. I assumed hunters would be interest. The idea of a successful deer repellent doesnít please some, and the info got rubbished, all the usual BS

Then came the usual anti 1080, trapping blah blah

My last link you are referring to, was in response to Radars comment about Graham Nugent and 1080.

I doubt Nugent believes ď1080 isnt workingĒ.

That Nugents comments were in a ZIP publicity item, is irrelevant.
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #83 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:57am
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My anti 1080 stance is that based on the fact that we donít know the full ecological damage that 1080 does, yes it kills everything that ingests enough of it, but what about residue, what about secondary poisoning, what about water quality, thereís a lot of quite frankly BS being spread around about how good 1080 is, bit like DDT and 245T to name 2 other agrochemicals that were supposed to change the world.
Iím involved in DOC sponsored trap lines which we can clearly see that 1080 does kill rats and possums and more than likely mustelids through secondary poisoning, but I can tell you that the numbers jump straight back to Ďnormalí after 6 months such is the prolific breeding ability of rats.which follows that their predator species mustelids (weasels, stoats, which can control their breeding by holding foetus in limbo until conditions are suitable for breeding)  So no matter how much 1080 you use theyíre still going to be there, on top of that how much native species are directly and indirectly affected by the poison, and the after effects of predator explosion and need for alpha predators (mustelids) to prey on the bird life when a good proportion of their prey is rats.
Remember 1080 isnít just being used for possum control itís also now being used for rats and mice, deer and pigs are a welcome by kill as far as DOC, OSPRI and Forest and Bird are concerned so they donít want repellent. With the Ďlovelyí Ms Genter in control you can only see more 1080, less repellent and a totally dysfunctional ecosystem end result.
Lovely that cameras were used to try to get a pre and post operation count - but the accuracy and real live data ( which Iím now trying to get through an OIA - I hadnt  forgotten) seems to be one study, paid for by the main culprits with no checks or balances or peer review, no other studies is being bandied around as being a good thing.
50  - 60 years ago cigarettes were supposedly good for your health, this was promoted (paid for by the cigarette companyís and not opposed by Central Govt) and look where we are now.
I hope that in the very near future we seriously look at where 40+ years of 1080 has got us, because if we donít the future of NZ Forest ecosystems is bleak. Not just for hunters but for everyone.
  

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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #84 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:03am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:25am:
Marty, you donít get it

My (simple) original post was about a newsletter summary of the Landcare deer repellent trial. I assumed hunters would be interest. The idea of a successful deer repellent doesnít please some, and the info got rubbished, all the usual BS

Then came the usual anti 1080, trapping blah blah

My last link you are referring to, was in response to Radars comment about Graham Nugent and 1080.

I doubt Nugent believes ď1080 isnt workingĒ.

That Nugents comments were in a ZIP publicity item, is irrelevant.


Listen TH...I know exactly what you are doing. You are doing what you did throughout your career as a NZFS and DOC manager. You are trying to maintain a very limited framework to any discussion and you will belittle, quote out of context and generally harass anyone that strays outside your preferred terms of reference.

I was replying to your post where you linked the ZIP propaganda article. You decided that the ZIP 1080 trials were relevant to the discussion, when you put up the link, and then you cry "foul" when you get comments that don't suit your purposes. You are trying to stop healthy, robust debate and you are trying to engineer discussion that only talks in positive terms about the information that the 1080 industry provides to the public.

With regards to Nugent's knowledge of the effectiveness of 1080, Nugent knows that 1080 is having real problems achieving the targeted wild animal population densities and Nugent only talks in the narrow terms of reference allowed to him for any one project he is working on at that time. Nugent is not allowed to express any personal opinions, if they differ from the 1080 industry propaganda, and Nugent is expected to use his science qualifications to do as his employers/funders want him to do.
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #85 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:25am
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Radar wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:57am:
Lovely that cameras were used to try to get a pre and post operation count - but the accuracy and real live data ( which Iím now trying to get through an OIA - I hadnt† forgotten) seems to be one study, paid for by the main culprits with no checks or balances or peer review, no other studies is being bandied around as being a good thing.


How will you analyse the data if you get it? Which test? With the same data set and using the appropriate statistical model, the result and significance will be the same Id have thought?

On EDR, there seems to be a fair body of work showing its impact.
  

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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #86 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:47am
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Radar wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 7:06pm:
In fairness it does Ďlookí reasonably honest
But
Itís only 1 Report, it does have a heap of conjecture around deer numbers - sika being territorial Iíd expect that the cameras caputured the same resident deer a number of time - nowhere in the report does it say anything about positive ID of separate deer, only deer images captured by Trail Camera. Same with Possums
Itís a good attempt to justify 1080 but it still falls well short of Ďgood scienceí


That's a big re-frame.†I thought the research was about the efficacy of repellent/EDR.

So when you receive the information that you are seeking through the OIA will you use it to test the robustness and validity of the research in an objective way, or to discredit it according to your own bias?
  

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.......
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #87 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 11:40am
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Listen TH...I know exactly what you are doing. You are doing what you did throughout your career as a NZFS and DOC manager. You are trying to maintain a very limited framework to any discussion and you will belittle, quote out of context and generally harass anyone that strays outside your preferred terms of reference.

I was replying to your post where you linked the ZIP propaganda article. You decided that the ZIP 1080 trials were relevant to the discussion, when you put up the link, and then you cry "foul" when you get comments that don't suit your purposes. You are trying to stop healthy, robust debate and you are trying to engineer discussion that only talks in positive terms about the information that the 1080 industry provides to the public.

With regards to Nugent's knowledge of the effectiveness of 1080, Nugent knows that 1080 is having real problems achieving the targeted wild animal population densities and Nugent only talks in the narrow terms of reference allowed to him for any one project he is working on at that time. Nugent is not allowed to express any personal opinions, if they differ from the 1080 industry propaganda, and Nugent is expected to use his science qualifications to do as his employers/funders want him to do.


cant to read, marty

Quote:
why cant a few on this forum stick to the topic instead of a 1080 and pro trapping rant at every opportunity
it was a simple post.

My comment about the simple post has nothing to do with the article about ZIP and Graham Nugent

The thread is about a trial using deer repellent.

FFS
How can this short sentence be conveyed to you so that you understand what was said"?

I posted the link in  the previous to the Nugent article, in response to Radars assertion about Nugent/1080. I made no comment about ZIP and what theyre doing


As usual marty, your on the personal attacks now, as if it justifies what your saying. its school boy crap, you need to grow up
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #88 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:13pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 11:40am:
Quote:
Listen TH...I know exactly what you are doing. You are doing what you did throughout your career as a NZFS and DOC manager. You are trying to maintain a very limited framework to any discussion and you will belittle, quote out of context and generally harass anyone that strays outside your preferred terms of reference.

I was replying to your post where you linked the ZIP propaganda article. You decided that the ZIP 1080 trials were relevant to the discussion, when you put up the link, and then you cry "foul" when you get comments that don't suit your purposes. You are trying to stop healthy, robust debate and you are trying to engineer discussion that only talks in positive terms about the information that the 1080 industry provides to the public.

With regards to Nugent's knowledge of the effectiveness of 1080, Nugent knows that 1080 is having real problems achieving the targeted wild animal population densities and Nugent only talks in the narrow terms of reference allowed to him for any one project he is working on at that time. Nugent is not allowed to express any personal opinions, if they differ from the 1080 industry propaganda, and Nugent is expected to use his science qualifications to do as his employers/funders want him to do.


cant to read, marty

Quote:
why cant a few on this forum stick to the topic instead of a 1080 and pro trapping rant at every opportunity
it was a simple post.

My comment about the simple post has nothing to do with the article about ZIP and Graham Nugent

The thread is about a trial using deer repellent.

FFS
How can this short sentence be conveyed to you so that you understand what was said"?

I posted the link in† the previous to the Nugent article, in response to Radars assertion about Nugent/1080. I made no comment about ZIP and what theyre doing


As usual marty, your on the personal attacks now, as if it justifies what your saying. its school boy crap, you need to grow up


Here is the link you posted:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12097338

It is all about the ZIP the 1080 programme. You didn't need to make personal reference to ZIP because the link, you posted, did that for you.

If you wanted this thread to only be about deer repellent, why did you post a link that deals with 1080 trials and doesn't even mention deer repellent?
  
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Re: 1080 - Monitoring a sika deer population with trail cameras
Reply #89 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 1:52pm
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Marty, for the last time.
I posted a link relating to graham Nugent in response to Radrs comment about Nugent.
That's it. I never referred to anything else about ZIP. I couldn't care less whats they are saying

THEN

I posted this
Quote:
why cant a few on this forum stick to the topic instead of a 1080 and pro trapping rant at every opportunity
it was a simple post.

The thread topic is about deer repellent.
There has been a 1080 rant, following my thread post.

You can go on about ZIP all you like, how about doing it on your own thread



  
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