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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) ALERT (Read 3982 times)
headcase
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Re: ALERT
Reply #30 - Jul 14th, 2018 at 12:08pm
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Unless the sacks were open it would not have left the sack. Those sacks are tough and not biodegradable, so green mash in a sack. Some 1080 would of course leech out and also much of it would degrade.

Doesn't make it right though.
  

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Re: ALERT
Reply #31 - Jul 14th, 2018 at 7:22pm
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1080 in cold conditions can remain potent for years. It does not degrade in water unless warm and in association with certain bacteria, the varieties of which are not commonplace in NZ soils.
  

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Re: ALERT
Reply #32 - Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:56am
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All stop defending DOC. They are not our friend.

You will learn this too late just like the Kea will
  
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Re: ALERT
Reply #33 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 7:30am
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huntnfish wrote on Jul 14th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
1080 in cold conditions can remain potent for years. It does not degrade in water unless warm and in association with certain bacteria, the varieties of which are not commonplace in NZ soils.


Always helpful if when you make statements like that you provide the source of your claim, helps people make informed decisions about wild claims.

I must admit Im quite interested to see what your source is, as your claim is something that isnt immediately backed up anywhere I can find... so lets have it!
  
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Re: ALERT
Reply #34 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 8:51am
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Cuzza wrote on Jul 16th, 2018 at 7:30am:
huntnfish wrote on Jul 14th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
1080 in cold conditions can remain potent for years. It does not degrade in water unless warm and in association with certain bacteria, the varieties of which are not commonplace in NZ soils.


Always helpful if when you make statements like that you provide the source of your claim, helps people make informed decisions about wild claims.

I must admit Im quite interested to see what your source is, as your claim is something that isnt immediately backed up anywhere I can find... so lets have it!


the nutter antis have very little evidence hence why 1080 is still being used, they will come back with a sentence of cherry picked statment claimed as "evidence"  that is Just their opinion formed by their opinion of  reading between the lines.

there will be next to no evidence for these statements, if true we could go to 1080 area a year later and find it.
I will give them a lil bit of credit as I think its been proven to not break down in distilled water but the only place thats readily available is the supermarket and 1080 not dropped there. Cheesy


  
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Re: ALERT
Reply #35 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 9:01am
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To be fair 1080 carcasses that have dryed out, mummified, in areas like the Mackenzie can remain deadly to dogs for a very long time. Perhaps a year, perhaps longer..  Smiley
  

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Re: ALERT
Reply #36 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 10:49am
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gonehuntin wrote on Jul 16th, 2018 at 8:51am:
Cuzza wrote on Jul 16th, 2018 at 7:30am:
huntnfish wrote on Jul 14th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
1080 in cold conditions can remain potent for years. It does not degrade in water unless warm and in association with certain bacteria, the varieties of which are not commonplace in NZ soils.


Always helpful if when you make statements like that you provide the source of your claim, helps people make informed decisions about wild claims.

I must admit Im quite interested to see what your source is, as your claim is something that isnt immediately backed up anywhere I can find... so lets have it!


the nutter antis have very little evidence hence why 1080 is still being used, they will come back with a sentence of cherry picked statment claimed as "evidence"  that is Just their opinion formed by their opinion of  reading between the lines.

there will be next to no evidence for these statements, if true we could go to 1080 area a year later and find it.
I will give them a lil bit of credit as I think its been proven to not break down in distilled water but the only place thats readily available is the supermarket and 1080 not dropped there. Cheesy




Would you like me to send you a PDF ..1080 it's chemistry ?  if so flick me an email address and you can have a read...and yes it's all legit. I am sure you will be surprised, may even learn something if you don't already know that is Roll Eyes
I'm anti but don't see myself as a nutter  Smiley
  

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Re: ALERT
Reply #37 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 11:02am
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Nothing like a good old 1080 discussion to get the blood flowing in your veins. Ill miss it when its gone.  Smiley
  

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Re: ALERT
Reply #38 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 11:05am
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headcase wrote on Jul 16th, 2018 at 9:01am:
To be fair 1080 carcasses that have dryed out, mummified, in areas like the Mackenzie can remain deadly to dogs for a very long time. Perhaps a year, perhaps longer..  Smiley


Not sure if doc do the same but when a drops done by ospiri/tb free they place a carcass and 1080 baits in cages at multiple sites and monitor breakdown.  only once theyve fully degraded and pose no danger the signs are removed and caution period lifted.

and EC I never said all antis were nutter, was just adressing the nutter antis so youre excused  Cheesy

  
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Re: ALERT
Reply #39 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 11:28am
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Cuzza wrote on Jul 16th, 2018 at 7:30am:
huntnfish wrote on Jul 14th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
1080 in cold conditions can remain potent for years. It does not degrade in water unless warm and in association with certain bacteria, the varieties of which are not commonplace in NZ soils.


Always helpful if when you make statements like that you provide the source of your claim, helps people make informed decisions about wild claims.

I must admit Im quite interested to see what your source is, as your claim is something that isnt immediately backed up anywhere I can find... so lets have it!


It's not exactly a secret. How about the DoC toxins manual:

Quote:
A series of laboratory studies have shown that 1080 would be biodegraded by aquatic plants and micro-organisms if small amounts entered waterways. The rate of breakdown would be temperature-dependent, and in fast-running streams dilution of the toxin would be more important in reducing the presence of 1080 to toxicologically insignificant concentrations. The breakdown of this toxin has been found to occur more rapidly at higher temperatures, but still occurs at <7ºC within 1–2 weeks (Ogilvie et al. 1996).  Fluorocitrate (the active metabolite of 1080) has been detected in aquaria spiked with 1080.  Its disappearance paralleled that of 1080, hence absence of 1080 in environmental samples would indicate that there would be a very low risk of fluorocitrate being present (Booth et al. 1999b). (from page 12)

Sodium monofluoroacetate derived from baits will also be dispersed by water since it is highly water soluble and mobile (Parfitt et al. 1995). In older literature, it was suggested that 1080 is retained in solid particles and does not leach. This conclusion was based on the mistaken assumption that 1080 would not be held on cation-exchange sites in soil. However, monofluoroacetate is an anion and New Zealand-based research has demonstrated that it could potentially be leached through soil by water (Parfitt et al. 1995). If heavy rainfall follows the use of 1080 baits, dilution to unmeasurable concentrations (<0.0001 ppm) may precede biodegradation. In comparison to cereal bait, 1080 is retained in carrot baits and will only slowly leach from carrots into the soil (Bowen et al. 1995). However, control operations are planned to coincide with periods of dry weather, and some defluorination by micro-organisms on the decaying baits and in the soil around baits is probable, particularly if the baits become moist. Under favourable conditions, such as 11–20ºC and 8–15% moisture (King et al. 1994), 1080 may be significantly defluorinated in 1–2 weeks. In less favourable conditions breakdown might take several weeks and, in extreme cold and drought, 1080 residues might persist in baits or in the soil for several months. (from page 10)


I've seen studies from the USA that are even less favourable.
  
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Re: ALERT
Reply #40 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 11:29am
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gonehuntin wrote on Jul 16th, 2018 at 8:51am:
the nutter antis have very little evidence hence why 1080 is still being used, they will come back with a sentence of cherry picked statment claimed as "evidence"  that is Just their opinion formed by their opinion of  reading between the lines.

there will be next to no evidence for these statements, if true we could go to 1080 area a year later and find it.
I will give them a lil bit of credit as I think its been proven to not break down in distilled water but the only place thats readily available is the supermarket and 1080 not dropped there. Cheesy


and don't you look like a complete muppet now.

Here's more, also from DoC

Quote:
The time taken for the 1080 in the soil to decline by 50% was 10 days at 23 degrees C, 80 days at 5 degrees C (Partfitt et al. 1994)
  
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Re: ALERT
Reply #41 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 11:45am
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gonehuntin wrote on Jul 16th, 2018 at 8:51am:
Cuzza wrote on Jul 16th, 2018 at 7:30am:
huntnfish wrote on Jul 14th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
1080 in cold conditions can remain potent for years. It does not degrade in water unless warm and in association with certain bacteria, the varieties of which are not commonplace in NZ soils.


Always helpful if when you make statements like that you provide the source of your claim, helps people make informed decisions about wild claims.

I must admit Im quite interested to see what your source is, as your claim is something that isnt immediately backed up anywhere I can find... so lets have it!


the nutter antis have very little evidence hence why 1080 is still being used, they will come back with a sentence of cherry picked statment claimed as "evidence"  that is Just their opinion formed by their opinion of  reading between the lines.

there will be next to no evidence for these statements, if true we could go to 1080 area a year later and find it.
I will give them a lil bit of credit as I think its been proven to not break down in distilled water but the only place thats readily available is the supermarket and 1080 not dropped there. Cheesy


The people using 1080 should be the ones to produce research to show 1080 is safe in the environment it is used.

Dogs are very susceptible to 1080. The amount of 1080 left in a possum's dried skin and bones is more than enough to kill a dog. If a possum dies under a log or bank overhang then the 1080 could kill a dog many years later. DOC measures possum carcass decay by waiting for a dead possum to decay, in open, ideal decay situations, and then reports that the bush is safe for dogs.

1080 doesn't breakdown in flowing water, it disappears from the water that is being tested. Cellulose material (leaves, sticks, etc) act as a sponge for 1080 and suck the 1080 from the flowing water. The 1080 is still there, it has just moved to another place. The monitoring is supposed to take place within hours so that the 1080 entering water will be measured, instead, the monitoring is taking place days later, after the 1080 has moved into the cellulose material.

The claim is that 1080 is broken down by soil micro-organisms. This is true in West Australia and South Africa (both desert environments) where plants produce a natural form of 1080 (different from the synthetic 1080 used in NZ) and the micro-organisms have evolved, over millions of years, to take advantage of this resource. NZ has similar soil micro-organisms, however, we don't know how widespread they are and how efficient they might be in breaking down 1080 as the research work has not been done. Please remember, that different types of the same organism do different things as the TB organism has taught us. Avian TB causes a false positive to Bovine TB in cattle that have been exposed to Avian TB. Avian TB doesn't cause disease in cattle and Bovine TB does cause disease. They are variants of the same organism and they behave differently.

The 1080 is being broken down by living organisms. The living organisms are every single oxygen breathing animal, bird, insect, micro-organism, etc that ingests 1080, with sub-lethal doses being broken down and, in the process, often causing other negative disease factors that can lead to further illness and death of the organism. Lethal doses of 1080 ensure that the carcass remains toxic for the next organism in the food chain. The process goes on poisoning and killing until all the 1080 has eventually broken down. Nobody knows how long this process takes and nobody knows how many times the 1080 kills, in the chain reaction, as there has been no research done.

Mike Mead was the first DOC scientist to start looking at these things and he was the first publicised case of DOC using constructive dismissal processes to get rid of anyone who dares to question the DOC attitude on the use of 1080.


  
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Re: ALERT
Reply #42 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 12:11pm
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Under the terms of the newly updated Health and Safety Act, DOC cannot contract out their responsibility.

Yes the contractor has done wrong. DOC need to prove that all their contractors are compliant with their internal regulations and also that they comply with the act. That such a large single load of 1080 was dumped in a swamp, near a track and at the head of a water source shows failure to prevent a public risk (as well environmental - probably a failure to comply with their consent).
  

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Re: ALERT
Reply #43 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 1:21pm
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This is a good source for the bush lawyers.

https://worksafe.govt.nz/laws-and-regulations/

The Principle (DOC) would have what is called the "reasonably practicable" test applied to their actions or inactions. That might be a long bow in this case.

Is it certain that this was toxin, or pre-feed?

Anyway, I bet this has sent some tremors through DOC.

This is interesting too:

http://www.1080facts.co.nz/uploads/2/9/5/8/29588301/water_sampling_for_1080.pdf
  

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Re: ALERT
Reply #44 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 3:53pm
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I love it when fake news catches up with itself.

Things I have read about 1080 in the news over the years:
Only mammals are susceptible to 1080, it's mostly harmless to birds and reptiles
It degrades in water to salt and vinegar chips
Low doses are harmless so nobody needs to worry.

Now the real news catches up when some muppet dumps some in a swamp and they scurry around to remove it because it's not as harmless as they claim.

One thing I find slightly odd was the bloke who came foward said he did so after a Kiwi was found dead at Doughboy.  I have walked from Doughboy to Rakeahua and there is a huge mountain with a swamp on the top in between the two.  I don't think a 1080 poisoned kiwi is going to stagger that far in order to die.
  

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