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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Orange Fronted Kakariki (Read 71477 times)
Marty Foote
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Orange Fronted Kakariki
Jul 7th, 2018 at 3:11pm
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I'm just pricking DOC into getting back to the talking table.

The Orange-fronted DOC attachments are not publicly available and you will have to ask DOC if you want a copy..As such, I do not have the ability, to provide forum readers with the attachments, unless the forum owners will put in place a mechanism that will allow for such information transfer to happen.

However, I dear say, that if you made the same inquiries, that I did, you will receive the same information I did.

Hi RNZ people,

Please look at the attached Orange-fronted parakeet recovery documents, that I received after writing the stuff below, before you make any decisions about what you will do, as RNZ news reporters and RNZ journalists. You will see, in those attached documents, that DOC employees and DOC scientists have always been promoting trapping as something that needs to happen even where aerial 1080 is being used.

Please look at all the information and make your own decision on what you are prepared to do to promote in your own roles as RNZ reporters and/or RNZ celebrity personalities. I sincerely hope that the words like "unhinged" and "anti-1080 nutter" will never be a part of the sort of wording that RNZ people will ever use, in the future, when describing intelligent bushmen that are prepared to sign output contracts that mean that they will never get paid unless they achieve the predetermined wild animal control densities targeted.

Also...Please ensure that your new RNZ personality, Karen Hay, that doesn't have a current RNZ email address, is forwarded this email.

Before you analyse the information about orange-fronted kakariki...Be warned that the Orange-fronted parakeets are, quite simply, the "canary-in-the-coalmine" with regards to the way DOC is using aerial 1080. Look at other birds that have better public profiles (kiwi, whio, kea, etc) who are also being hurt by the total public reporting emphasis on aerial 1080 poison and absolutely no public reporting on the trapping contractors that support the aerial 1080 operations with the on-the-ground trapping work that is happening.

This is taken out of a larger document I'm working through looking at 1080 costs and effectiveness.

You will notice that at the same time DOC has been dropping 1080 to "save" the Orange-fronted parakeet, the bird numbers have actually plummeted, from a small, but viable, breeding population, to numbers so low that they cannot be encountered during the monitoring.

You will also notice that DOC started monitoring rats only until the results showed that 1080 was not killing the rats, DOC then switched to possum monitoring, for one year, during which the 1080 failed to kill possums and then DOC switched back to rat monitoring and placed the monitoring lines in places that they should not have been placed which then enabled them to pick and choose which monitor line results they would use in the EPA report.

Cheers...Marty

10) Hawdon, Andrews and Poulter valleys 2016.   20,946  ha

EPA operational report: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Bait: $248,835.00   = $11.88/ha at a sowing rate of  2 + 2 = 4kg/ha = $2.97/kg bait cost.

Flying: $209,920.45   = $10.02/ha = $2.51/kg

Transport/Storage: No costs recorded.

Security: $3,332.00 = $0.72/ha

Monitoring:
Stoat:No costs recorded
Rat:  No costs recorded
Possum: No costs recorded
No bait or carcass decay monitoring costs are recorded.

Management/Consultation: $45,012.00 = $2.15/ha

Consents: No costs recorded.

Post operation work (track clearance, buffer carcass removal, etc): No costs recorded.

Signage: $12,153.00 = $0.58/ha

Other: $1,567.00 + $3,124.00 = $4,691= $0.22/ha

Monitoring:

STOATS: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control for this operation.

POSSUMS: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control for this operation.

RATS:

The post operation rat target was 5%.

Pre: Hawdon 4.7%, Poulter 0%
Post: Hawdon 0%, Poulter 0%

The operational area was below the rat target before the 1080 was applied.
There was no reason to proceed with the operation as the rat numbers were already below the target set.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control for this operation, except to say that the money spent here was wasted and would have been better spent somewhere else that had rat populations above the target set.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target:  "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2016 / 2017 breeding season."

Outcome result: "No OFP's have been found in these valleys this season. There may be one OFP nest yet to be confirmed."

Historical 1080 operations for this area are linked below:

This operational area has had eight aerial 1080 operations over the last nine years, The Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring showed 13 nesting pairs in 2011 and today no Orange-fronted parakeets are being encountered. This means that there was a viable breeding population before 1080 was used and over the decade of 1080 use the Orange-fronted parakeet population has dropped to the point that no individual birds are being encountered during monitoring.

2008: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: May-10%, June-7%, July-4%, Aug-11%, Sept-6%,
Post: Oct-0%, Nov-0%, Jan-0%, Mar-1.3%

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions".
The 0% recorded in Nov/Jan cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: No target set.

Outcome result: No monitoring completed.

2009: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre:  Jan-2%, Feb-0.9%, Mar-3.1%, Apr-7.5%, May-5.6%, Jun-8.5%, Jul-9.3%, Aug-22.7%.
Post:  Oct-1.5%, Nov-0%, Jan-0%.

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions".
The low rat densities recorded in Oct/Nov/Jan cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon Valley at the conclusion of the 2009/10 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rates in the Hawdon Valley (from standardised monitoring lines) will not reduce from 2008/09 to 2009/10."

Outcome result: "OFP encounter rate in November 2009 was 0.38 birds per hour, compared with 0.21 birds per hour in the same survey in 2008."

2012: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: Aug/Sept/Oct- up to 7% (Please note that the highest recorded line is 7% and there is no average stated)
Post: Dec to Mar-0%.

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions" with the highest recorded line being 7%.
The low rat densities recorded in Dec to Mar cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon Valley at the conclusion of the 2012 / 2013 breeding season. Orangefronted parakeet encounter rates in the Hawdon Valley (from standardised monitoring lines) will not reduce from 2011/12 to 2012/13."

Outcome result: "The orange-fronted parakeet population is present in both the Poulter and Hawdon valleys however the number of orange-fronted parakeets in the Hawdon and Poulter is not known and it can not yet be determined whether the populations are still in decline, are stable or are increasing. Encounter rates and nests found were down from 13 nests in 2011/2012 to 5 in 2012/2013."

2013: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: No monitoring done.
Post: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: 70%BMI or 17.5%RTC & 31%BMI or 7.75%RTC (dividing the BMI by 4 to achieve RTC).
Post: 9%BMI or 2.25%RTC  & 10%BMI or 2.5%RTC (dividing the BMI by 4 to achieve RTC).

The post possum density was more than twice the target of 1%RTC.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "All known orange-fronted parakeet nests are fully protected against introduced predators."

Outcome result: "No monitoring of outcomes was undertaken." 

2014: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 26%
Post: 16%

The post rat density was more than 3 times the target of 5%.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rate will not decline."

Outcome result: "Monitoring ongoing."  (Please note, this is the second year running that Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring results have not been published).


2015: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 9%, 13%, 9%
Post: 0%, 0%, 0%

Because of poor placement of monitor lines the results cannot be relied upon to give accurate results.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target:
1) "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rates in the Poulter will not decline."

2) "A viable orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the South Branch Hurunui at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange fronted parakeet encounter rate will not decline."

3) "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orangefronted parakeet encounter rates in the Poulter will not decline."

Outcome result: "Encounter rate has not declined significantly since last season despite the massive beech mast and consequent influx of mice, rats and stoats.."  (Please note, this is the third year running that Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring results have not been published).

The wording of the Orange-fronted parakeet outcome result would indicate that the parakeet numbers are declining, although this decline is not as significant as the decline in 2012-13.

2016: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 4.7%, 0%.
Post: 0%, 0%,

The rat density was recorded at below the target of 5% before the 1080 was applied.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2016 / 2017 breeding season."

Outcome result: "No OFP's have been found in these valleys this season. There may be one OFP nest yet to be confirmed.

Over the last decade the Orange-fronted parakeet population has declined from a small, but viable, breeding population to numbers so low that normal monitoring methods are unable to count any individual birds. At the same time as the decline has been happening there has been very intensive aerial 1080 operations happening that were supposed to "save" the Orange-fronted parakeets from extinction.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #1 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 7:58pm
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That is of concern isn't it! Is it possible that other factors may have contributed to their decline. Are there viable populations in adjoining valleys? Is their home range such that they may have migrated to another area? I certainly hope it is not 1080, if so questions to need to be asked and future operations modified.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #2 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 9:43pm
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Those DOC gits will still argue that it’s the rats & tree monkeys that are responsible not the 1080  Tongue

DOC putting the “Con” in conservation
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #3 - Jul 7th, 2018 at 9:50pm
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outdoorlad wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 9:43pm:
Those DOC gits will still argue that it’s the rats & tree monkeys that are responsible not the 1080  Tongue

DOC putting the “Con” in conservation


Yes there are those that will argue black is white but those that have jumped ship will agree totally.
Funny wee lot...the DOC.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #4 - Jul 8th, 2018 at 2:52am
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Geeeze Marty, you're poking a few gigantic holes in their 'scientific' approach to predator control. Keep up the good work:)

Good to see someone well enough versed in the matter to show 'em up.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #5 - Jul 8th, 2018 at 4:44am
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Cantyguy wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 7:58pm:
That is of concern isn't it! Is it possible that other factors may have contributed to their decline. Are there viable populations in adjoining valleys? Is their home range such that they may have migrated to another area? I certainly hope it is not 1080, if so questions to need to be asked and future operations modified. 



These are the only valleys that they know of where they are naturally occurring. There have been some releases onto offshore islands that appear to have had some problems.

There may be other reasons, such as a parasitic mite or disease that only affects Orange-fronted parakeets and leaves the other kakariki species alone.

I got this information, about parasite/disease from the DOC Recovery Plan that has not been published on the DOC website and you have to ask DOC to send you a copy.

The other things that are stated, in the recovery plan, is the need for ongoing trapping, the possibility of poison-shyness developing in rats and the need for DOC staff to have access to all the management tools that are available.

The disease thing may have some credibility except that it is only attacking Orange-fronted kakariki and leaving the closely related yellow-crowns alone.

It was a virus that wiped out the North Island Weka. Initially the weka was a big winner with European settlement in areas where grain was being grown. Weka grew to plague proportions, on the East Coast, with the increase in rat numbers which is the main weka food supply. It was thought that the weka had been made extinct in the North Island, however, there are still low numbers of weka in the Urewera. If you were to listen to DOC and F&B, you would be led to the conclusion that predators were the reason for the demise of weka, when the opposite is true, in that, weka are highly efficient predators and are having to be killed, with 1080, when stoat trapping is not stopping the loss of whio eggs and chicks that are being taken from the nests.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #6 - Jul 8th, 2018 at 7:06am
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Marty Foote wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
I'm just pricking DOC into getting back to the talking table.

The Orange-fronted DOC attachments are not publicly available and you will have to ask DOC if you want a copy..As such, I do not have the ability, to provide forum readers with the attachments, unless the forum owners will put in place a mechanism that will allow for such information transfer to happen.

However, I dear say, that if you made the same inquiries, that I did, you will receive the same information I did.

Hi RNZ people,

Please look at the attached Orange-fronted parakeet recovery documents, that I received after writing the stuff below, before you make any decisions about what you will do, as RNZ news reporters and RNZ journalists. You will see, in those attached documents, that DOC employees and DOC scientists have always been promoting trapping as something that needs to happen even where aerial 1080 is being used.

Please look at all the information and make your own decision on what you are prepared to do to promote in your own roles as RNZ reporters and/or RNZ celebrity personalities. I sincerely hope that the words like "unhinged" and "anti-1080 nutter" will never be a part of the sort of wording that RNZ people will ever use, in the future, when describing intelligent bushmen that are prepared to sign output contracts that mean that they will never get paid unless they achieve the predetermined wild animal control densities targeted.

Also...Please ensure that your new RNZ personality, Karen Hay, that doesn't have a current RNZ email address, is forwarded this email.

Before you analyse the information about orange-fronted kakariki...Be warned that the Orange-fronted parakeets are, quite simply, the "canary-in-the-coalmine" with regards to the way DOC is using aerial 1080. Look at other birds that have better public profiles (kiwi, whio, kea, etc) who are also being hurt by the total public reporting emphasis on aerial 1080 poison and absolutely no public reporting on the trapping contractors that support the aerial 1080 operations with the on-the-ground trapping work that is happening.

This is taken out of a larger document I'm working through looking at 1080 costs and effectiveness.

You will notice that at the same time DOC has been dropping 1080 to "save" the Orange-fronted parakeet, the bird numbers have actually plummeted, from a small, but viable, breeding population, to numbers so low that they cannot be encountered during the monitoring.

You will also notice that DOC started monitoring rats only until the results showed that 1080 was not killing the rats, DOC then switched to possum monitoring, for one year, during which the 1080 failed to kill possums and then DOC switched back to rat monitoring and placed the monitoring lines in places that they should not have been placed which then enabled them to pick and choose which monitor line results they would use in the EPA report.

Cheers...Marty

10) Hawdon, Andrews and Poulter valleys 2016.   20,946  ha

EPA operational report: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Bait: $248,835.00   = $11.88/ha at a sowing rate of  2 + 2 = 4kg/ha = $2.97/kg bait cost.

Flying: $209,920.45   = $10.02/ha = $2.51/kg

Transport/Storage: No costs recorded.

Security: $3,332.00 = $0.72/ha

Monitoring:
Stoat:No costs recorded
Rat:  No costs recorded
Possum: No costs recorded
No bait or carcass decay monitoring costs are recorded.

Management/Consultation: $45,012.00 = $2.15/ha

Consents: No costs recorded.

Post operation work (track clearance, buffer carcass removal, etc): No costs recorded.

Signage: $12,153.00 = $0.58/ha

Other: $1,567.00 + $3,124.00 = $4,691= $0.22/ha

Monitoring:

STOATS: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control for this operation.

POSSUMS: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control for this operation.

RATS:

The post operation rat target was 5%.

Pre: Hawdon 4.7%, Poulter 0%
Post: Hawdon 0%, Poulter 0%

The operational area was below the rat target before the 1080 was applied.
There was no reason to proceed with the operation as the rat numbers were already below the target set.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control for this operation, except to say that the money spent here was wasted and would have been better spent somewhere else that had rat populations above the target set.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target:  "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2016 / 2017 breeding season."

Outcome result: "No OFP's have been found in these valleys this season. There may be one OFP nest yet to be confirmed."

Historical 1080 operations for this area are linked below:

This operational area has had eight aerial 1080 operations over the last nine years, The Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring showed 13 nesting pairs in 2011 and today no Orange-fronted parakeets are being encountered. This means that there was a viable breeding population before 1080 was used and over the decade of 1080 use the Orange-fronted parakeet population has dropped to the point that no individual birds are being encountered during monitoring.

2008: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: May-10%, June-7%, July-4%, Aug-11%, Sept-6%,
Post: Oct-0%, Nov-0%, Jan-0%, Mar-1.3%

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions".
The 0% recorded in Nov/Jan cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: No target set.

Outcome result: No monitoring completed.

2009: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre:  Jan-2%, Feb-0.9%, Mar-3.1%, Apr-7.5%, May-5.6%, Jun-8.5%, Jul-9.3%, Aug-22.7%.
Post:  Oct-1.5%, Nov-0%, Jan-0%.

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions".
The low rat densities recorded in Oct/Nov/Jan cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon Valley at the conclusion of the 2009/10 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rates in the Hawdon Valley (from standardised monitoring lines) will not reduce from 2008/09 to 2009/10."

Outcome result: "OFP encounter rate in November 2009 was 0.38 birds per hour, compared with 0.21 birds per hour in the same survey in 2008."

2012: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: Aug/Sept/Oct- up to 7% (Please note that the highest recorded line is 7% and there is no average stated)
Post: Dec to Mar-0%.

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions" with the highest recorded line being 7%.
The low rat densities recorded in Dec to Mar cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon Valley at the conclusion of the 2012 / 2013 breeding season. Orangefronted parakeet encounter rates in the Hawdon Valley (from standardised monitoring lines) will not reduce from 2011/12 to 2012/13."

Outcome result: "The orange-fronted parakeet population is present in both the Poulter and Hawdon valleys however the number of orange-fronted parakeets in the Hawdon and Poulter is not known and it can not yet be determined whether the populations are still in decline, are stable or are increasing. Encounter rates and nests found were down from 13 nests in 2011/2012 to 5 in 2012/2013."

2013: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: No monitoring done.
Post: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: 70%BMI or 17.5%RTC & 31%BMI or 7.75%RTC (dividing the BMI by 4 to achieve RTC).
Post: 9%BMI or 2.25%RTC  & 10%BMI or 2.5%RTC (dividing the BMI by 4 to achieve RTC).

The post possum density was more than twice the target of 1%RTC.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "All known orange-fronted parakeet nests are fully protected against introduced predators."

Outcome result: "No monitoring of outcomes was undertaken." 

2014: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 26%
Post: 16%

The post rat density was more than 3 times the target of 5%.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rate will not decline."

Outcome result: "Monitoring ongoing."  (Please note, this is the second year running that Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring results have not been published).


2015: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 9%, 13%, 9%
Post: 0%, 0%, 0%

Because of poor placement of monitor lines the results cannot be relied upon to give accurate results.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target:
1) "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rates in the Poulter will not decline."

2) "A viable orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the South Branch Hurunui at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange fronted parakeet encounter rate will not decline."

3) "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orangefronted parakeet encounter rates in the Poulter will not decline."

Outcome result: "Encounter rate has not declined significantly since last season despite the massive beech mast and consequent influx of mice, rats and stoats.."  (Please note, this is the third year running that Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring results have not been published).

The wording of the Orange-fronted parakeet outcome result would indicate that the parakeet numbers are declining, although this decline is not as significant as the decline in 2012-13.

2016: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 4.7%, 0%.
Post: 0%, 0%,

The rat density was recorded at below the target of 5% before the 1080 was applied.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2016 / 2017 breeding season."

Outcome result: "No OFP's have been found in these valleys this season. There may be one OFP nest yet to be confirmed.

Over the last decade the Orange-fronted parakeet population has declined from a small, but viable, breeding population to numbers so low that normal monitoring methods are unable to count any individual birds. At the same time as the decline has been happening there has been very intensive aerial 1080 operations happening that were supposed to "save" the Orange-fronted parakeets from extinction.


Are you saying that the Hawdon , Andrews Poulter and South Branch of the Hurunui have each had 1080 applications in 8 of last 9 years ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #7 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 4:56am
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Parakeets seem to have strangely disappeared after 3 1080 drops in northern Kaimanawas. Kaka are now in extremely low numbers. Rifleman seem to have gone and Bush Robins are in very low numbers
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #8 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 11:31pm
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The battle for the birds will be won - the only birds left will be in an aviary safe from 1080. The nectar eaters should be ok though.

I live near to the Wainuiomata catchment which gets a dose of 1080 about every 4 years. The last one was in 2014; following which we noticed a dramatic drop of all species of seed and insect eating species, with the exception of hawks which went on to kill 25 full grown hens at my place in the following year - never had one prior to since then.

They are due to do another drop just as we are starting to see a return of some of the species lost to the last drop; some of those species like falcons and cuckoos are probably gone forever from our area.

Interestingly I contacted WRC to see if they did any monitoring that would support our anecdotal evidence - they provided me with a spreadsheet of their bird monitoring survey results within the catchment which showed an increase in almost all species - I find it odd that on one side of the fence numbers can increase while on the other side they are largely annihilated.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #9 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 9:39am
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Very interesting article and promising.
https://www.wildernessmag.co.nz/closing-zip-possums/
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #10 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 9:56am
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Great article, thanks for posting.


Marty still waiting for a reply please.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #11 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 11:24am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 9:56am:
Great article, thanks for posting.


Marty still waiting for a reply please.


How about this written a while ago. You might also want to consider that fact that all the captive possum 1080 poisoning trials have regularly only got 80-90% kills, which means that they can't eradicate possums, with 1080, unless the poisoning is much more effective in the wild, than can be created in totally controlled captive situations.

Thank you pointing me in the direction of the ZIP report:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56a03ffedc5cb428e06b5982/t/5a611c2fe2c483
11888e8c60/1516313655397/ZIP+Technical+Report+%231+-+1080+to+Zero+Jackson-Arawha
ta+trial+v.2.pdf


From my perspective nothing much has changed from the view that ZIP cannot make the claims about possum "functional eradication", based upon the monitoring that was done immediately after the aerial 1080 operation. The monitoring totally ignores scientific findings, and advice, about post-aerial 1080 operation monitoring of possum populations.

The reasons why the monitoring cannot be relied upon, to base the ZIP claims on, are:

Possum populations should always be monitored at least 4 months after the 1080 has been applied.

This scientific advice was first given to DOC, the Agricultural Pest Destruction Board (APDB) and the Regional Pest Boards during the 1980's when it became apparent that monitoring immediately after aerial 1080 operations was underestimating the surviving possum population density and overestimating the possum kill. Subsequently, AHB has commissioned a number of scientific studies about the post-aerial 1080 underestimation of possum densities. These studies have supported the belief that monitoring, immediately after aerial 1080, will underestimate the possum population and overestimate the possum kill.

There are three theories as to why this possum monitoring underestimation, when Trap-Catch is used, and a fourth where bait interference methods (Wax-Tags, Chew-Cards) are used, is happening:

a) Arboreal possums take time to come down from the canopy.

b) Sub-lethally poisoned possums become very sick and take time to recover enough to be interested in investigating a trap-site.

c) The surviving possum population goes into a "state of shock", through losing many members of the social community in a short space of time, and this "state of shock" takes time to recover from, as new social orders need to be established before the possum population starts behaving normally.

d) Where the possums need to bite something novel there will be a percentage of the possum population that has become poison/bait-shy and will not bite the Wax-Tags or Chew-Cards (There is also a percentage of the possums that are naturally bait-averse and will not eat any novel bait presented to them and will never be recorded by Wax-Tags or Chew-Cards or killed by eating poisoned baits).

In order for the ZIP possum monitoring to mean anything, the monitoring will need to be done again, with Trap-Catch being used to ensure that any poison-shy and bait-averse possums have a chance of being recorded. I understand that it is thought that the area is too small to wait the four months plus, before monitoring, as it is feared that reinvasion would be a problem. A better approach would have been to design a more robust programme, right from the start, instead of ignoring, tried and proven, monitoring procedures in order to seem to be accomplishing the results stated would be the desired outcome prior to the 1080 being applied.

To sum up. Any possums that were living in the canopy, or were poison-shy/bait-shy/bait-averse, or were still recovering from "social shock" or sub-lethal 1080 poisoning would not have been recorded by the ZIP post-aerial 1080 monitoring.

I also note that there were three adjoining sites that could have been used by ZIP for the trial. The other two sites had all weather access, as there was direct road access and the Jackson River did not need to be crossed. The other two sites were Mt Ellery and Wheeler Slope. Both of these sites would have been better sites, for the study area, as they contained better permanent possum habitat than the habitat contained in the area chosen for the study. The area, chosen for the study, is mostly river flat and would have naturally had very few wild animals resident at the time the post-operation monitoring was done, even without any control. A cynic could argue that the study site was chosen, not to robustly test the 1080 Double Dosing theory, but, to give the best possible opportunity to show that 1080 Double Dosing worked, even if it meant that the results were severely flawed and the results could not be expected to be duplicated in other areas. Combine the study area with the monitoring methods used, as well as the timing of the monitoring, and a cynic has a very strong argument that supports the idea that the 1080 Double Dosing trial was designed to give a predetermined result in favour of aerial 1080, regardless of how effective the same 1080 operations would in other areas.

Here are my comments about statements made in the report:

1) Objective.

This trial sought to develop a technique (sometimes referred to as a ‘prescription’) for aerial 1080 to achieve ‘functional’ extinction of possums in South Westland. We dubbed the technique ‘1080 to Zero’. The threshold for achieving functional extinction was set at <1 possum per 400 ha (OSPRI, 2014), a level at which the population is no longer functionally viable.

OSPRI and DOC have many examples of aerial 1080 operational areas, that were monitored immediately after aerial 1080 operations, that recorded the same results ZIP has recorded, with the possum population rising so quickly, after 4 plus months, that the rise cannot be attributed to natural increase or reinvasion and it has been accepted that the possums were there all the time and that they had never been killed by the 1080 or recorded in the post-1080 monitoring.

Contract trappers have consistently recorded similar results to the "functional extinction" result that ZIP is aiming for. Contract trappers have been employed behind many poison operations, that have recorded zero possums post-poison, and the trappers have caught hundreds, and even thousands, more possums than would have been caught in an area that had been trapped by an experienced contract trapper with a target of 1%RTC.

2) Permission was secured from the Medical Officer of Health (Ministry of Health) to aerially sow toxic bait to the river edge, thus removing any exclusion zones from the treatment area. As such, there were no areas where target animals could be present where they would not be able to gain access to bait (i.e. no animals were ‘exempt’ from the trial treatment).

The same statements have been made by aerial 1080 operators for well over twenty years, except, the MOH permission has been sought, and granted, to drop 1080 into waterways to ensure that no animals would be exempt from exposure to 1080 baits.

3)  The complete removal of possums and rats appears to have been successfully achieved within the treatment area for at least 60 days post control. This is possibly the first time that aerial 1080 has been shown to successfully remove all rats and possums from a site.

The second sentence is false. What is more important, is that the people involved know that this statement is false. DOC and OSPRI have provided me with numerous examples where the same flawed monitoring methods and timing, used in the ZIP trial, have "shown to successfully remove all rats and possums from a site". The ZIP results are the same as many DOC and OSPRI results, going back over 30 years, which have proved to be false as the surviving wild animal numbers, both possums and rats, have been underestimated and the possum and rat kills have been overestimated because the monitoring was designed in such a way that scientific advice was deliberately ignored so that false possum and rat, post-1080 operation, population densities would be recorded.

4)  The combination of no exclusion zones, double prefeeding, bait swath overlaps (i.e. no gaps in coverage), and higher than standard bait sowing rates are all considered to have contributed to this successful outcome. All of these factors are differences between the trial technique and the current standard technique for aerial 1080 operations for predator control.

If this statement is true, then DOC, OSPRI and LandCare have been lying to the NZ Public over the last 20 odd years and all the millions of dollars spent on scientifically studying these issues has been a complete and utter waste of taxpayers financial resources.


To sum up, the ZIP report, on the Arawhata 1080 Double Dosing trial, could be described as a very well written sales document for the benefit of the aerial 1080 industry. The report cannot be described as a credible scientific report with which to judge the effectiveness of the 1080 Double Dosing or "1080 to Zero" method of wild animal control.

Junk science sets out to do everything possible to support a theory. Good science sets out to do everything possible to disprove a theory and if the theory cannot be disproved it can then be adopted as scientific fact.

Kind regards.....Martin Foote.


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #12 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 11:41am
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The link, to the ZIP report above, won't work by just clicking. Try copying the whole thing and then pasting into the new window address...It worked for me.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #13 - Jul 11th, 2018 at 10:05am
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It’s a shame DOC think 1080 is the golden bullet, I walked to the sth branch hut a about 5 years ago, it was an evening 2 months after a 1080 drop and all I saw was 4 cats, made me wonder how many cats still up there I didn’t see. DOC have all the facilities for a thorough follow up if they were serious about saving the birds but the occasional time I see the the utes are packed with fishing rods and rifles
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #14 - Jul 11th, 2018 at 10:33am
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Hey Davie and you other guys that dont like 1080 [who does ?] have you ever thought about joining a predator trapping group, starting one or asking DoC if you can do volunteer work in a trapping programme ?

  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #15 - Jul 11th, 2018 at 10:35am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 7:06am:
Marty Foote wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
I'm just pricking DOC into getting back to the talking table.

The Orange-fronted DOC attachments are not publicly available and you will have to ask DOC if you want a copy..As such, I do not have the ability, to provide forum readers with the attachments, unless the forum owners will put in place a mechanism that will allow for such information transfer to happen.

However, I dear say, that if you made the same inquiries, that I did, you will receive the same information I did.

Hi RNZ people,

Please look at the attached Orange-fronted parakeet recovery documents, that I received after writing the stuff below, before you make any decisions about what you will do, as RNZ news reporters and RNZ journalists. You will see, in those attached documents, that DOC employees and DOC scientists have always been promoting trapping as something that needs to happen even where aerial 1080 is being used.

Please look at all the information and make your own decision on what you are prepared to do to promote in your own roles as RNZ reporters and/or RNZ celebrity personalities. I sincerely hope that the words like "unhinged" and "anti-1080 nutter" will never be a part of the sort of wording that RNZ people will ever use, in the future, when describing intelligent bushmen that are prepared to sign output contracts that mean that they will never get paid unless they achieve the predetermined wild animal control densities targeted.

Also...Please ensure that your new RNZ personality, Karen Hay, that doesn't have a current RNZ email address, is forwarded this email.

Before you analyse the information about orange-fronted kakariki...Be warned that the Orange-fronted parakeets are, quite simply, the "canary-in-the-coalmine" with regards to the way DOC is using aerial 1080. Look at other birds that have better public profiles (kiwi, whio, kea, etc) who are also being hurt by the total public reporting emphasis on aerial 1080 poison and absolutely no public reporting on the trapping contractors that support the aerial 1080 operations with the on-the-ground trapping work that is happening.

This is taken out of a larger document I'm working through looking at 1080 costs and effectiveness.

You will notice that at the same time DOC has been dropping 1080 to "save" the Orange-fronted parakeet, the bird numbers have actually plummeted, from a small, but viable, breeding population, to numbers so low that they cannot be encountered during the monitoring.

You will also notice that DOC started monitoring rats only until the results showed that 1080 was not killing the rats, DOC then switched to possum monitoring, for one year, during which the 1080 failed to kill possums and then DOC switched back to rat monitoring and placed the monitoring lines in places that they should not have been placed which then enabled them to pick and choose which monitor line results they would use in the EPA report.

Cheers...Marty

10) Hawdon, Andrews and Poulter valleys 2016.   20,946  ha

EPA operational report: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Bait: $248,835.00   = $11.88/ha at a sowing rate of  2 + 2 = 4kg/ha = $2.97/kg bait cost.

Flying: $209,920.45   = $10.02/ha = $2.51/kg

Transport/Storage: No costs recorded.

Security: $3,332.00 = $0.72/ha

Monitoring:
Stoat:No costs recorded
Rat:  No costs recorded
Possum: No costs recorded
No bait or carcass decay monitoring costs are recorded.

Management/Consultation: $45,012.00 = $2.15/ha

Consents: No costs recorded.

Post operation work (track clearance, buffer carcass removal, etc): No costs recorded.

Signage: $12,153.00 = $0.58/ha

Other: $1,567.00 + $3,124.00 = $4,691= $0.22/ha

Monitoring:

STOATS: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control for this operation.

POSSUMS: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control for this operation.

RATS:

The post operation rat target was 5%.

Pre: Hawdon 4.7%, Poulter 0%
Post: Hawdon 0%, Poulter 0%

The operational area was below the rat target before the 1080 was applied.
There was no reason to proceed with the operation as the rat numbers were already below the target set.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control for this operation, except to say that the money spent here was wasted and would have been better spent somewhere else that had rat populations above the target set.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target:  "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2016 / 2017 breeding season."

Outcome result: "No OFP's have been found in these valleys this season. There may be one OFP nest yet to be confirmed."

Historical 1080 operations for this area are linked below:

This operational area has had eight aerial 1080 operations over the last nine years, The Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring showed 13 nesting pairs in 2011 and today no Orange-fronted parakeets are being encountered. This means that there was a viable breeding population before 1080 was used and over the decade of 1080 use the Orange-fronted parakeet population has dropped to the point that no individual birds are being encountered during monitoring.

2008: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: May-10%, June-7%, July-4%, Aug-11%, Sept-6%,
Post: Oct-0%, Nov-0%, Jan-0%, Mar-1.3%

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions".
The 0% recorded in Nov/Jan cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: No target set.

Outcome result: No monitoring completed.

2009: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre:  Jan-2%, Feb-0.9%, Mar-3.1%, Apr-7.5%, May-5.6%, Jun-8.5%, Jul-9.3%, Aug-22.7%.
Post:  Oct-1.5%, Nov-0%, Jan-0%.

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions".
The low rat densities recorded in Oct/Nov/Jan cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon Valley at the conclusion of the 2009/10 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rates in the Hawdon Valley (from standardised monitoring lines) will not reduce from 2008/09 to 2009/10."

Outcome result: "OFP encounter rate in November 2009 was 0.38 birds per hour, compared with 0.21 birds per hour in the same survey in 2008."

2012: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: Aug/Sept/Oct- up to 7% (Please note that the highest recorded line is 7% and there is no average stated)
Post: Dec to Mar-0%.

This rat density monitoring pattern is normal, without rat control, with measured densities rising until Sept-Oct, dropping in Oct-Nov and starting to rise again in Mar-April.
The rat numbers never reached the level that could be described as "a plague of biblical proportions" with the highest recorded line being 7%.
The low rat densities recorded in Dec to Mar cannot be definitely attributed to a 1080 rat kill and could very easily be the result of the rats moving into the canopy to feed.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum: No possum monitoring was done.
Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum and stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon Valley at the conclusion of the 2012 / 2013 breeding season. Orangefronted parakeet encounter rates in the Hawdon Valley (from standardised monitoring lines) will not reduce from 2011/12 to 2012/13."

Outcome result: "The orange-fronted parakeet population is present in both the Poulter and Hawdon valleys however the number of orange-fronted parakeets in the Hawdon and Poulter is not known and it can not yet be determined whether the populations are still in decline, are stable or are increasing. Encounter rates and nests found were down from 13 nests in 2011/2012 to 5 in 2012/2013."

2013: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: No monitoring done.
Post: No monitoring done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: 70%BMI or 17.5%RTC & 31%BMI or 7.75%RTC (dividing the BMI by 4 to achieve RTC).
Post: 9%BMI or 2.25%RTC  & 10%BMI or 2.5%RTC (dividing the BMI by 4 to achieve RTC).

The post possum density was more than twice the target of 1%RTC.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "All known orange-fronted parakeet nests are fully protected against introduced predators."

Outcome result: "No monitoring of outcomes was undertaken." 

2014: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 26%
Post: 16%

The post rat density was more than 3 times the target of 5%.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rate will not decline."

Outcome result: "Monitoring ongoing."  (Please note, this is the second year running that Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring results have not been published).


2015: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 9%, 13%, 9%
Post: 0%, 0%, 0%

Because of poor placement of monitor lines the results cannot be relied upon to give accurate results.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target:
1) "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange-fronted parakeet encounter rates in the Poulter will not decline."

2) "A viable orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the South Branch Hurunui at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orange fronted parakeet encounter rate will not decline."

3) "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2014 / 2015 breeding season. Orangefronted parakeet encounter rates in the Poulter will not decline."

Outcome result: "Encounter rate has not declined significantly since last season despite the massive beech mast and consequent influx of mice, rats and stoats.."  (Please note, this is the third year running that Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring results have not been published).

The wording of the Orange-fronted parakeet outcome result would indicate that the parakeet numbers are declining, although this decline is not as significant as the decline in 2012-13.

2016: https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

Rat:
Pre: 4.7%, 0%.
Post: 0%, 0%,

The rat density was recorded at below the target of 5% before the 1080 was applied.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of rat control.

Possum:
Pre: No monitoring done
Post: No Monitoring done

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of possum control.

Stoat: No stoat monitoring was done.

No claims can be made as to the effectiveness of stoat control.

Orange Fronted Parakeet:

Outcome target: "A viable breeding Orange-fronted parakeet population will still be present in the Hawdon & Poulter Valleys at the conclusion of the 2016 / 2017 breeding season."

Outcome result: "No OFP's have been found in these valleys this season. There may be one OFP nest yet to be confirmed.

Over the last decade the Orange-fronted parakeet population has declined from a small, but viable, breeding population to numbers so low that normal monitoring methods are unable to count any individual birds. At the same time as the decline has been happening there has been very intensive aerial 1080 operations happening that were supposed to "save" the Orange-fronted parakeets from extinction.


Are you saying that the Hawdon , Andrews Poulter and South Branch of the Hurunui have each had 1080 applications in 8 of last 9 years ?


Reply ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #16 - Jul 11th, 2018 at 6:51pm
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I replied to your request for comment about the ZIP propaganda in posts #11 & #12.

I have copied my comments (post #49 of the Stewart Island thread) below about the way DOC has used Orange-fronted parakeet monitoring reports in a way that was designed to deceive the NZ Public about the known decline of OFP that was happening at the same time as aerial 1080 operations were taking place.

"Tell me then TH....Why the EPA reports I quoted from show a deliberate attempt to distract the NZ Public from the fact that the aerial 1080 programme was not "saving" Orange-fronted parakeet.

For 3-4 years DOC recorded that there "was no substantial decline in the OFP numbers". It was only in the last year reported that it became obvious that DOC had not been able to find any OFP for a number of years.

The DOC reported statement, about no substantial decline on OFP, was correct, except DOC failed to report that there can be no decline, what-so-ever, substantial or not, if the population was already at zero.

DOC was even dropping 1080 over rat populations that were less than 5%, when the target was 5%, and then DOC claimed that the 1080 control was successful because the post-1080 result was below the target of 5%.

See what I mean?....DOC paints a mental picture that they know is not true and when someone comes up with some well thought out alternative thoughts, backed up with facts created by DOC monitoring results, DOC does, what you are doing, and ridicules the messenger and starts painting another false picture to be consumed by the naive and unwary."
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #17 - Jul 11th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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The question was... Were each of those operational areas Hawdon, Andrews , Poulter and south branch of the Hurunui have they each had aerial applications of 1080 in 8 of the last 9 years. Yes or no will suffice.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #18 - Jul 11th, 2018 at 9:03pm
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Yes the Sth Branch has been done at least 2 times in the last 6 years.
I’m not against 1080 it’s just used too much now and it’s not doing the job well enough to save the birds
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #19 - Jul 11th, 2018 at 9:42pm
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
The question was... Were each of those operational areas Hawdon, Andrews , Poulter and south branch of the Hurunui have they each had aerial applications of 1080 in 8 of the last 9 years. Yes or no will suffice.


In 2015 & 2016 EPA started recording the number of proposed 1080 operations as well as the number of reported operations. Prior to 2015 EPA had only recorded the number of reported operations and made no mention of proposed operations.

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

2015....56 proposed operations and 45 reported operations.

2016....60 proposed operations and 36 reported operations.

Nobody can be sure how many operations have taken place because not all the operations are being reported to the public through the EPA reports.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #20 - Jul 12th, 2018 at 7:39am
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It's called: "shooting DoC with a ball of their own shit"  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #21 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:23am
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Marty Foote wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 9:42pm:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
The question was... Were each of those operational areas Hawdon, Andrews , Poulter and south branch of the Hurunui have they each had aerial applications of 1080 in 8 of the last 9 years. Yes or no will suffice.


In 2015 & 2016 EPA started recording the number of proposed 1080 operations as well as the number of reported operations. Prior to 2015 EPA had only recorded the number of reported operations and made no mention of proposed operations.

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

2015....56 proposed operations and 45 reported operations.

2016....60 proposed operations and 36 reported operations.

Nobody can be sure how many operations have taken place because not all the operations are being reported to the public through the EPA reports.


Yet you wrote this and i quote "this operational area has had eight aerial 1080 operations in the last nine years "

Why did you write that when you dont know ?


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #22 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 10:26am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:23am:
Marty Foote wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 9:42pm:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
The question was... Were each of those operational areas Hawdon, Andrews , Poulter and south branch of the Hurunui have they each had aerial applications of 1080 in 8 of the last 9 years. Yes or no will suffice.


In 2015 & 2016 EPA started recording the number of proposed 1080 operations as well as the number of reported operations. Prior to 2015 EPA had only recorded the number of reported operations and made no mention of proposed operations.

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

2015....56 proposed operations and 45 reported operations.

2016....60 proposed operations and 36 reported operations.

Nobody can be sure how many operations have taken place because not all the operations are being reported to the public through the EPA reports.


Yet you wrote this and i quote "this operational area has had eight aerial 1080 operations in the last nine years "

Why did you write that when you dont know ?


I could have added the words "that we know about as the aerial 1080 industry isn't reporting all the 1080 operations to the EPA or the NZ Public"

However, it is DOC's legal responsibility to honestly report as per the legislation and the requirements set down by the PCE. It should not be the NZ Public's responsibility to point out that DOC is not obeying the rules as well as reporting untruthfully when they do report.

Anyone that endorses DOC's, OSPRI's and Regional Councils failure to comply with the rules, regulations and laws, set down in the legislation, is actually endorsing the breakdown of law and order to the extent that the NZ Government is alienating many NZ Citizens from being protected by the laws that are not being obeyed.

Are you endorsing DOC's failure to comply with the rules, regulations and laws?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #23 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 8:23pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 10:26am:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:23am:
Marty Foote wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 9:42pm:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
The question was... Were each of those operational areas Hawdon, Andrews , Poulter and south branch of the Hurunui have they each had aerial applications of 1080 in 8 of the last 9 years. Yes or no will suffice.


In 2015 & 2016 EPA started recording the number of proposed 1080 operations as well as the number of reported operations. Prior to 2015 EPA had only recorded the number of reported operations and made no mention of proposed operations.

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

2015....56 proposed operations and 45 reported operations.

2016....60 proposed operations and 36 reported operations.

Nobody can be sure how many operations have taken place because not all the operations are being reported to the public through the EPA reports.


Yet you wrote this and i quote "this operational area has had eight aerial 1080 operations in the last nine years "

Why did you write that when you dont know ?


I could have added the words "that we know about as the aerial 1080 industry isn't reporting all the 1080 operations to the EPA or the NZ Public"

However, it is DOC's legal responsibility to honestly report as per the legislation and the requirements set down by the PCE. It should not be the NZ Public's responsibility to point out that DOC is not obeying the rules as well as reporting untruthfully when they do report.

Anyone that endorses DOC's, OSPRI's and Regional Councils failure to comply with the rules, regulations and laws, set down in the legislation, is actually endorsing the breakdown of law and order to the extent that the NZ Government is alienating many NZ Citizens from being protected by the laws that are not being obeyed.

Are you endorsing DOC's failure to comply with the rules, regulations and laws?


"Honestly report" are your words. Putting it simply you lambaste DOC for not providing correct figures and here you are MAKING UP FIGURES to support your claims.


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #24 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 9:02pm
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 8:23pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 10:26am:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 7:23am:
Marty Foote wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 9:42pm:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 11th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
The question was... Were each of those operational areas Hawdon, Andrews , Poulter and south branch of the Hurunui have they each had aerial applications of 1080 in 8 of the last 9 years. Yes or no will suffice.


In 2015 & 2016 EPA started recording the number of proposed 1080 operations as well as the number of reported operations. Prior to 2015 EPA had only recorded the number of reported operations and made no mention of proposed operations.

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-repor...

2015....56 proposed operations and 45 reported operations.

2016....60 proposed operations and 36 reported operations.

Nobody can be sure how many operations have taken place because not all the operations are being reported to the public through the EPA reports.


Yet you wrote this and i quote "this operational area has had eight aerial 1080 operations in the last nine years "

Why did you write that when you dont know ?


I could have added the words "that we know about as the aerial 1080 industry isn't reporting all the 1080 operations to the EPA or the NZ Public"

However, it is DOC's legal responsibility to honestly report as per the legislation and the requirements set down by the PCE. It should not be the NZ Public's responsibility to point out that DOC is not obeying the rules as well as reporting untruthfully when they do report.

Anyone that endorses DOC's, OSPRI's and Regional Councils failure to comply with the rules, regulations and laws, set down in the legislation, is actually endorsing the breakdown of law and order to the extent that the NZ Government is alienating many NZ Citizens from being protected by the laws that are not being obeyed.

Are you endorsing DOC's failure to comply with the rules, regulations and laws?


"Honestly report" are your words. Putting it simply you lambaste DOC for not providing correct figures and here you are MAKING UP FIGURES to support your claims.




SO, you DO endorse DOC failing to obey rules, regulations and laws.

"Honestly reporting" is what EPA, PCE, MOH, RMA, etc all require DOC to do.

You obviously believe that the level of dishonesty, in the EPA 1080 reports, is acceptable, presumably, because it allows 1080 to be used without the sort of public scrutiny that the rules, regulations and laws are designed to achieve.

I have linked government reports to back my figures, the figures are not figments of my imagination. Where are your figures that are backed by documented evidence?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #25 - Jul 13th, 2018 at 9:57pm
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You provided the figures of how many operations there were... then you said no one can be sure of how many operations there were, which is it ?  ...

Please dont tell me what i endorse or believe in.

  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #26 - Jul 14th, 2018 at 12:02am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 13th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
You provided the figures of how many operations there were... then you said no one can be sure of how many operations there were, which is it ?  ...

Please dont tell me what i endorse or believe in.



I provided figures, backed by DOC supplied EPA reports, and made the statement that not all 1080 operations have been reported to EPA, and I supplied EPA generated reports to show this is happening.

Also, in the DOC reports supplied to EPA, the OFP reporting was deliberately deceptive and DOC was indicating that there were OFP present, over a period of 3-4 years, when DOC could not find any OFP during their regular annual OFP monitoring. During this period DOC was dropping 1080 over a rat population that below the target and then claiming that 1080 had been effective because the post-1080 rat density was below the target.

Do you agree that this type of reporting is dishonest? If so, do you endorse this sort of dishonest reporting?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #27 - Jul 14th, 2018 at 12:43am
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This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with what i think.

The discussion is about someone [you] putting up "facts" that suited your position. When you were challanged on those "facts" we got a complete reversal and then we get a whole heap of bluster, diversion and blaming someone else.




  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #28 - Jul 14th, 2018 at 12:59am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 14th, 2018 at 12:43am:
This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with what i think.

The discussion is about someone [you] putting up "facts" that suited your position. When you were challanged on those "facts" we got a complete reversal and then we get a whole heap of bluster, diversion and blaming someone else.


You have told us what you think about me and my beliefs. That's OK by me...You are fully entitled to an opinion about what you think of me and my beliefs.

I note that you have not told us your opinion on the dishonest reporting by DOC.

You are wrong about opinions, as DOC has created an environment where the only thing that matters is the strength of opposing opinions with DOC feeding 1080 supporters with false reports about the effectiveness of 1080 to kill the animals they are targeting for control as well as the benefits being attributed to native wildlife.

Good quality opinions cannot be formed when people are supplied with sub-standard information. Good quality opinions can only be formed when all the information is presented in a clear, accessible and honest way.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #29 - Jul 14th, 2018 at 5:23am
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That doesnt deserve a response.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #30 - Jul 15th, 2018 at 7:19am
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Its easy to see why your ideas have been rubbished by so many experts and fellow people in the industry marty.

far too biased to even be considered slightly credible,  its a pity as reading through alot of stuff youve written over the years and theres some bloody good stuff in there but your tunnel vision and borderline lunatic stance on 1080 let you down.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #31 - Jul 15th, 2018 at 10:23pm
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Most on these forums can recognise stooges and spin doctors. Marty is not one of them. Who else has gone to so much effort to expose the lack of transparency from DoC in as far as they "way" that department is so selective in the way it sends info through the media into the public view that it can easily be misconstrued by the public and the claims made seem to represent outcomes quite different from the reality.
If Marty's critics on here were really conservationists they would be helping to clarify the truths Marty has exposed rather than being pricks and trying instead to denigrate the messenger/s.
Commentators should be constructive in establishing truths rather than decrying tiny literary fopars.
Spinners and stooges should simply f--k off.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #32 - Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:14pm
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Huntnfish are you marty foote under a 2nd username? Or just his best buddie?   I have no problem with wanting to hold a govt department to account and definatly no problem if he got 1080 use stopped or significantly reduced (im neither anti or pro but I do think it could be done a better way)  its just the way he undertakes it that ruins it,  he cherry picks info just as much as he claims doc does and have yet to read an unbiased view written by him.  change those 2 things and credibility will start to grow, and mayby not try ram it relentlessly down our throats as many already have a hard time swallowing it.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #33 - Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:39pm
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huntnfish wrote on Jul 15th, 2018 at 10:23pm:
Most on these forums can recognise stooges and spin doctors. Marty is not one of them. Who else has gone to so much effort to expose the lack of transparency from DoC in as far as they "way" that department is so selective in the way it sends info through the media into the public view that it can easily be misconstrued by the public and the claims made seem to represent outcomes quite different from the reality.
If Marty's critics on here were really conservationists they would be helping to clarify the truths Marty has exposed rather than being pricks and trying instead to denigrate the messenger/s.
Commentators should be constructive in establishing truths rather than decrying tiny literary fopars.
Spinners and stooges should simply f--k off.


They are not tiny literary fopars, they were stated as fact.

If you state something as fact and it is proven to be wrong expect someone who opposes your view to expose that. Also expect that you LOOSE CREDIBILITY, keep posting rubbish facts and you LOOSE ALL CREDIBILTY.


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #34 - Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:58pm
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gonehuntin wrote on Jul 15th, 2018 at 7:19am:
Its easy to see why your ideas have been rubbished by so many experts and fellow people in the industry marty.

far too biased to even be considered slightly credible,  its a pity as reading through alot of stuff youve written over the years and theres some bloody good stuff in there but your tunnel vision and borderline lunatic stance on 1080 let you down.


My comments are only rubbished in public as DOC's policy is to shut down all dissenting views.

When I talk directly with the DOC experts they agree with me that there are problems with 1080 and they want the opportunity to use more ground based wild animal control.

DOC's top bird scientist, Graeme Elliot, has even written that DOC needs to change from activity planning to project planning. My understanding is "activity planning" is doing stuff (dropping 1080 to kill rats and possums) and "project planning" is looking out over the long term, at everything that is happening, and looking at all options for achieving a satisfactory long term result.

DOC's best and brightest are leaving to work on better projects where they can use their expertise to achieve the sort of results that DOC used to achieve.

Some of the experts, you are talking about, are scared of speaking out with what they believe to be true and some of them have absolutely no moral compass and are willing to accept the rewards offered to promote dubious and false statements.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #35 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 12:10am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:39pm:
huntnfish wrote on Jul 15th, 2018 at 10:23pm:
Most on these forums can recognise stooges and spin doctors. Marty is not one of them. Who else has gone to so much effort to expose the lack of transparency from DoC in as far as they "way" that department is so selective in the way it sends info through the media into the public view that it can easily be misconstrued by the public and the claims made seem to represent outcomes quite different from the reality.
If Marty's critics on here were really conservationists they would be helping to clarify the truths Marty has exposed rather than being pricks and trying instead to denigrate the messenger/s.
Commentators should be constructive in establishing truths rather than decrying tiny literary fopars.
Spinners and stooges should simply f--k off.


They are not tiny literary fopars, they were stated as fact.

If you state something as fact and it is proven to be wrong expect someone who opposes your view to expose that. Also expect that you LOOSE CREDIBILITY, keep posting rubbish facts and you LOOSE ALL CREDIBILTY.


Salmoner...It would appear that we are in agreement about reporting the truth.

You have done a great job of exposing the information that I have quoted from...Thank you for your supporting dialogue.

I note that while you have focused on what I have written, you have made no attempt to address the issues of untruthful reporting by DOC that my posts are exposing.

A good debate, that is intended to come to a well canvassed and well thought out conclusion, needs both parties to analyse all the information to find points of agreement. I can do this when I talk directly with DOC scientists and DOC field staff, I can't do it with DOC Head Office and the Minister of Conservation.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #36 - Jul 16th, 2018 at 10:18am
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Your ability to read what you want to read is outstanding.

  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #37 - Jul 18th, 2018 at 5:38am
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gonehuntin wrote on Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:14pm:
Huntnfish are you marty foote under a 2nd username? Or just his best buddie?

  Gonehuntin;  your remark quoted above exposes your arrogant presumptive and incredibly moronic attitude to all who have an opinion different to your own. If you assume you can criticise a person such as Marty, and then attempt, by mincing limp wristed weasel words to attempt to make assumtions about anyone who supports someone like Marty and trying to make a supposed association with him as something to be sniggered at, then pull your bloody head in. Plenty on here and elsewhere appreciate what Marty is trying to bring into the publics view, and I assure you that plenty will be watching and remembering your antics.
Take care  Cool
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #38 - Jul 19th, 2018 at 4:58am
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Huntnfish .. that is a real ugly post.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #39 - Jul 19th, 2018 at 5:49am
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dosent matter salmoner I have extremely thick skin and if im guna give someone stick about something I expect to have to take flak coming back at meme. I dont think huntnfish realises I do support alot of martys views and ideas I just dont support the way its presented and lack of factual proof.

also ANY concept has pros and cons and the antis seem to think their shite dont stink and no downside to their alternatives and rubish anyone who thinks otherwise and thats not a great way to get support.

I dont think the antis will ever accept there needs to be 1080 used no matter what they want it 100% gone but there will always be a place for allthough on a far smaller scale imo unless a better alternative is found... and no trapping is not the solution but should be a good portion of it.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #40 - Jul 20th, 2018 at 4:16am
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gonehuntin wrote on Jul 19th, 2018 at 5:49am:
dosent matter salmoner I have extremely thick skin and if im guna give someone stick about something I expect to have to take flak coming back at meme. I dont think huntnfish realises I do support alot of martys views and ideas I just dont support the way its presented and lack of factual proof.

also ANY concept has pros and cons and the antis seem to think their shite dont stink and no downside to their alternatives and rubish anyone who thinks otherwise and thats not a great way to get support.

I dont think the antis will ever accept there needs to be 1080 used no matter what they want it 100% gone but there will always be a place for allthough on a far smaller scale imo unless a better alternative is found... and no trapping is not the solution but should be a good portion of it.


A good and mature response.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #41 - Jul 20th, 2018 at 6:17am
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huntnfish wrote on Jul 18th, 2018 at 5:38am:
gonehuntin wrote on Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:14pm:
Huntnfish are you marty foote under a 2nd username? Or just his best buddie?

  Gonehuntin;  your remark quoted above exposes your arrogant presumptive and incredibly moronic attitude to all who have an opinion different to your own. If you assume you can criticise a person such as Marty, and then attempt, by mincing limp wristed weasel words to attempt to make assumtions about anyone who supports someone like Marty and trying to make a supposed association with him as something to be sniggered at, then pull your bloody head in. Plenty on here and elsewhere appreciate what Marty is trying to bring into the publics view, and I assure you that plenty will be watching and remembering your antics.
Take care  Cool


Watch the tone please. Your post could easily be understood as a threat, which would not be tolerated on the forum.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #42 - Aug 7th, 2018 at 11:36am
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huntnfish wrote on Jul 18th, 2018 at 5:38am:
gonehuntin wrote on Jul 15th, 2018 at 11:14pm:
Huntnfish are you marty foote under a 2nd username? Or just his best buddie?

  Gonehuntin;  your remark quoted above exposes your arrogant presumptive and incredibly moronic attitude to all who have an opinion different to your own. If you assume you can criticise a person such as Marty, and then attempt, by mincing limp wristed weasel words to attempt to make assumtions about anyone who supports someone like Marty and trying to make a supposed association with him as something to be sniggered at, then pull your bloody head in. Plenty on here and elsewhere appreciate what Marty is trying to bring into the publics view, and I assure you that plenty will be watching and remembering your antics.
Take care  Cool


gonehuntin...I can assure you that myself and huntnfish are two individual people. we meet and talk so if we are the same person I must be totally mad and insane...A hypothesis that many of my detractors might want to agree with and some have even tried to unsuccessfully promote.

To put things in perspective, I am not anti-1080, I am pro trapping and the pro-1080 people have labelled me as anti-1080 because I have proven that trappers can do a better, more cost effective job than any poison can do.

I fully understand that the numbers of experienced trappers couldn't even replace 10-15% of the area that aerial 1080 is currently doing without contracts being let and new blood being trained. What I am asking for is that the aerial 1080 areas be opened up to open, fair and transparently tendered competitive tenders with the successful contractors only being paid after they have achieved the stated output targets.

The idea of open, fair and transparently tendered contracts is a really simple idea and concept. I have no idea why people like you will continually try to make things more complicated by stating that such a simple concept is not possible because politicians, along with their paid scientists, say that it is more complicated, to the extent that it is not possible to even consider the possibility that open, fair and transparently tendered competitive tenders might deliver a better result than the government controlled staus-quo.


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #43 - Aug 8th, 2018 at 9:51am
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understood, and fair argument about the tenders too.  are you saying you could control possum rats and mustelids at a competitive price to aerial 1080 or just possums ?  or a better job but more expensive but with longer interval before follow up?





  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #44 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:34am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 9:51am:
understood, and fair argument about the tenders too.  are you saying you could control possum rats and mustelids at a competitive price to aerial 1080 or just possums ?  or a better job but more expensive but with longer interval before follow up?



Although my experience is with possums, I have spoken to the successful rat trappers and I believe that I can use my skills on targeting other animals as well as possums. In fact, many of the animals can be targeted at the same time as possums, using the same traps set for possums.

I believe that trappers can do a better, more cost effective job than 1080 within the 1080 budgets that are currently being spent. We have to surmise about the real cost of aerial 1080 as DOC and OSPRI refuse to release any individual 1080 operational budgets, citing commercial sensitivity as the reason for keeping the budgets out of the public view. We know that DOC and OSPRI start quoting 1080 at around $16/ha and, when pushed, they will lift this price to above $30/ha, AHB, in the 2010 cost review, wrote that aerial 1080 was costing $45+/ha and when individual 1080 operational components were added up the figure was very close to $60/ha. I have received an internal DOC budget for an aerial 1080 operation that has $60/ha as the quoted price. Prior to the Hunua 1080 operation, the Auckland Council staff produced a budget, of $17-18/ha, for approval by the Council, after the operation the cost expenditure quoted was over $34/ha, when asked why the price had doubled, from the pre-operation budget to what was spent, the response was that Auckland Council staff had no experience in using 1080 and had relied on advice from Environment Waikato and DOC to formulate the pre-operation budget and the advice received was wrong. None of these costings include all the costs of aerial 1080 with many expenditure components being a part of the DOC/OSPRI/Regional Council general expenditure and are never quantified.

Aerial 1080 and trapping are two totally different ways of going about achieving the same result and need to be looked at differently when long term planning is being done. Aerial 1080 is a series of one-off operations that take place 3-5 times in a 10 year period. Trapping is a continuous process that has phases. The first phase being the initial knock-down followed on by the maintenance phase, which is set up and established during the first phase.

In both methods, the 10-20 year planning time frame, currently being used by DOC and OSPRI, is essential for effective control. From a contractors point of view, the 1080 contractors need a long term guarantee of work to justify the expense of investing in expensive infrastructure and, from a trappers perspective, the longer the term of the contract the greater the incentive to lower the animal numbers to very low densities in the first year.

What is happening is that, although the 1080 contractors can rely on work over a 10 year period, the publicly promoted line is that all wild animal control is short term one-off contracts with the trappers being offered contract terms of between 3-12 months. This is highly inefficient and does not put the trappers skills to the best use. As an example, if the target is 5%RTC, the short term contractor will target 5%, on a 10 year contract the trapper will target 0%RTC, in the first year, knowing that the better the job done, in the first year, the less work will need to be done in the remaining 9 years. The trapping methods are different too, with leg-holds being used in the first phase and kill traps being used in the second phase. There are contracts that have succeeded in getting down to <1%, using leg-holds, and then maintaining <1% by the use of kill traps that are being checked 3-4 times per year.

Rats are different in that there needs to be a base-line continuous trapping pressure applied with added trapping intensity when there are unusual rat eruptions. The work has been done to prove that effective rat control can be achieved through the use of traps. The key to making rat trapping more effective, in the future, is to start collecting tree flowering quantities, success of pollination, predicted seed-fall and actual seed-fall as this information will provide a pattern that trappers can use to predict rat eruptions and alter their trapping programmes to compensate.

Cats, ferrets and hedghogs can be targeted at the same time as possums when leg-holds are being used. Kill traps can be used after the leg-holds have been removed.

Stoats can be trapped in the rat specific trap-sets and can also be targeted with stoat specific trap-sets.

Wasps are now considered to be a major predator of insects and bird chicks and the new wasp control system can be easily and cheaply deployed by the trappers as they go about their activities.

The key difference is that trapping can apply continuous pressure and maintain a consistent population density, while 1080 can only achieve a one-off reduction and then the population rises until the next 1080 application, which can cause a boom-bust situation, in rats, that maybe as damaging as doing nothing unless 1080 is applied, more often, to compensate.

While the focus is tying trappers to short term contracts and guaranteeing 1080 contractors work over the long term, there can never be competitive tendering as the system has been designed to make trappers inefficient and provide long term financial security for the 1080 contractors. This situation is further complicated by trappers performance being the best under output contracts (paid on results) and 1080 contractors only being prepared to sign input contracts (paid on work completed regardless of the results).

These issues have been canvassed between DOC and trappers, with the memorable DOC statement, made last year, being "DOC has no appetite for change" to which my response was "Well, we will just have work to increase DOC's appetite". DOC has accepted that change could happen and there are good reasons for making the change, with the change needing the will change and that has to come from the people who are making the decisions who are the elected politicians. There is a will for change in the Conservancies and this will is being overridden by instructions from Wellington.

  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #45 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 3:00am
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so say at $60 per ha and 2-3 aerial drops over 10yr thats $180max ha over 10yrs. how can you pay staff to check lines 3-4 times a year for 9 years at a competitive price? you cant predict cost increases like wages etc that far out or any other hidden costs.
how would the contractor be paid? once they reach x rtc then get x amount of $$ what would be the incentive for the next 9yrs?  and whats to stop a contractor taking same boom and bust approach as 1080 and getting down to under 1% rtc the first year do nothing more for 8yrs then intensive trap the 9th year?

And I take it the initial knock down would rely on fur revenue to pay its way as I dont see how else you could do a longterm op for $180 Ha.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #46 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 6:36am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 3:00am:
so say at $60 per ha and 2-3 aerial drops over 10yr thats $180max ha over 10yrs. how can you pay staff to check lines 3-4 times a year for 9 years at a competitive price? you cant predict cost increases like wages etc that far out or any other hidden costs.
how would the contractor be paid? once they reach x rtc then get x amount of $$ what would be the incentive for the next 9yrs?  and whats to stop a contractor taking same boom and bust approach as 1080 and getting down to under 1% rtc the first year do nothing more for 8yrs then intensive trap the 9th year?

And I take it the initial knock down would rely on fur revenue to pay its way as I dont see how else you could do a longterm op for $180 Ha.


The equation is very simple. The contractor puts in a price that gives an annual payment if the animal densities are below the target. This is what happens in all other industries where long term contracts are let. How the contractor prices his contracts and goes about achieving the targets is up to the contractor.

Aerial 1080 drops have gone from a drop every 5-7 years to a drop every 2-3 years with many areas being planned to have 1080 dropped every second year giving a total cost of $60/ha x 5 drops = $300/ha or $30/ha/yr. Some of these areas also are having additional ground control to deal with stoats, cats, wasps, etc. Combine this with the fact that a number of the 1080 drops are failing to reduce the numbers of possums and rats to the target density and it is very clear that output trapping contractors can do a better, more cost effective job than 1080.

As I have already said, an open, fair and transparent tendering system is a very simple process and it resolves all the issues that you have raised and is the reason why many such contracts are tendered in many other industries. The big plus, for the organisation buying the animal control, is that if the work is not up to standard then there is no payment to be made.

This is the way things were done 30 years ago, until AHB, DOC and the Regional Councils started to manipulate the system to be input contract dominated with these organisations having virtual total control over the work methodology, the pricing of the contracts and the preferred contractors that ended up with the work, which has created a highly inefficient system that often fails to deliver the targeted results.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #47 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 6:26am
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So ballpark figures what do you think it would cost? 

I still dont see it being a viable alternative in many areas main reason is manpower or lack of it and experience to effectively undertake and also once opperations start moving away from easy access I see it getting very expensive and dont see it being economically viable.

In saying that I do hope that you will one day (sooner rather then later) get an opportunity to prove your method succesfully and prove everyone wrong.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #48 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 7:15am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:34am:
gonehuntin wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 9:51am:
understood, and fair argument about the tenders too.  are you saying you could control possum rats and mustelids at a competitive price to aerial 1080 or just possums ?  or a better job but more expensive but with longer interval before follow up?



Although my experience is with possums, I have spoken to the successful rat trappers and I believe that I can use my skills on targeting other animals as well as possums. In fact, many of the animals can be targeted at the same time as possums, using the same traps set for possums.

I believe that trappers can do a better, more cost effective job than 1080 within the 1080 budgets that are currently being spent. We have to surmise about the real cost of aerial 1080 as DOC and OSPRI refuse to release any individual 1080 operational budgets, citing commercial sensitivity as the reason for keeping the budgets out of the public view. We know that DOC and OSPRI start quoting 1080 at around $16/ha and, when pushed, they will lift this price to above $30/ha, AHB, in the 2010 cost review, wrote that aerial 1080 was costing $45+/ha and when individual 1080 operational components were added up the figure was very close to $60/ha. I have received an internal DOC budget for an aerial 1080 operation that has $60/ha as the quoted price. Prior to the Hunua 1080 operation, the Auckland Council staff produced a budget, of $17-18/ha, for approval by the Council, after the operation the cost expenditure quoted was over $34/ha, when asked why the price had doubled, from the pre-operation budget to what was spent, the response was that Auckland Council staff had no experience in using 1080 and had relied on advice from Environment Waikato and DOC to formulate the pre-operation budget and the advice received was wrong. None of these costings include all the costs of aerial 1080 with many expenditure components being a part of the DOC/OSPRI/Regional Council general expenditure and are never quantified.

Aerial 1080 and trapping are two totally different ways of going about achieving the same result and need to be looked at differently when long term planning is being done. Aerial 1080 is a series of one-off operations that take place 3-5 times in a 10 year period. Trapping is a continuous process that has phases. The first phase being the initial knock-down followed on by the maintenance phase, which is set up and established during the first phase.

In both methods, the 10-20 year planning time frame, currently being used by DOC and OSPRI, is essential for effective control. From a contractors point of view, the 1080 contractors need a long term guarantee of work to justify the expense of investing in expensive infrastructure and, from a trappers perspective, the longer the term of the contract the greater the incentive to lower the animal numbers to very low densities in the first year.

What is happening is that, although the 1080 contractors can rely on work over a 10 year period, the publicly promoted line is that all wild animal control is short term one-off contracts with the trappers being offered contract terms of between 3-12 months. This is highly inefficient and does not put the trappers skills to the best use. As an example, if the target is 5%RTC, the short term contractor will target 5%, on a 10 year contract the trapper will target 0%RTC, in the first year, knowing that the better the job done, in the first year, the less work will need to be done in the remaining 9 years. The trapping methods are different too, with leg-holds being used in the first phase and kill traps being used in the second phase. There are contracts that have succeeded in getting down to <1%, using leg-holds, and then maintaining <1% by the use of kill traps that are being checked 3-4 times per year.

Rats are different in that there needs to be a base-line continuous trapping pressure applied with added trapping intensity when there are unusual rat eruptions. The work has been done to prove that effective rat control can be achieved through the use of traps. The key to making rat trapping more effective, in the future, is to start collecting tree flowering quantities, success of pollination, predicted seed-fall and actual seed-fall as this information will provide a pattern that trappers can use to predict rat eruptions and alter their trapping programmes to compensate.

Cats, ferrets and hedghogs can be targeted at the same time as possums when leg-holds are being used. Kill traps can be used after the leg-holds have been removed.

Stoats can be trapped in the rat specific trap-sets and can also be targeted with stoat specific trap-sets.

Wasps are now considered to be a major predator of insects and bird chicks and the new wasp control system can be easily and cheaply deployed by the trappers as they go about their activities.

The key difference is that trapping can apply continuous pressure and maintain a consistent population density, while 1080 can only achieve a one-off reduction and then the population rises until the next 1080 application, which can cause a boom-bust situation, in rats, that maybe as damaging as doing nothing unless 1080 is applied, more often, to compensate.

While the focus is tying trappers to short term contracts and guaranteeing 1080 contractors work over the long term, there can never be competitive tendering as the system has been designed to make trappers inefficient and provide long term financial security for the 1080 contractors. This situation is further complicated by trappers performance being the best under output contracts (paid on results) and 1080 contractors only being prepared to sign input contracts (paid on work completed regardless of the results).

These issues have been canvassed between DOC and trappers, with the memorable DOC statement, made last year, being "DOC has no appetite for change" to which my response was "Well, we will just have work to increase DOC's appetite". DOC has accepted that change could happen and there are good reasons for making the change, with the change needing the will change and that has to come from the people who are making the decisions who are the elected politicians. There is a will for change in the Conservancies and this will is being overridden by instructions from Wellington.



Did we agree a while back that 5000ha was what a single trapper could cover to control ALL pests ? If it wasnt what was the figure in ha ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #49 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 7:38am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 6:26am:
So ballpark figures what do you think it would cost? 

I still dont see it being a viable alternative in many areas main reason is manpower or lack of it and experience to effectively undertake and also once opperations start moving away from easy access I see it getting very expensive and dont see it being economically viable.

In saying that I do hope that you will one day (sooner rather then later) get an opportunity to prove your method succesfully and prove everyone wrong.


Ballpark figures = Cost less than 1080.

The cost would vary depending on the block, the animals targeted and the final population densities required. Only by tendering the blocks, stating what the output targets are and asking for control proposals will there be any real sense as to what the final cost per individual block is.

So what if the cost is more than 1080 in the very remote Fiordland sheer-sided valleys...They can continue to drop 1080 over the Wapiti herd unless NZer's state they are prepared to pay more. There are plenty of easily accessible areas, such as RHAs, where 1080 is being dropped where there will be no trouble attracting trappers, the cost will be less than 1080 and the final wild animal control result will be superior than 1080.

Manpower...5,000ha/trapper after the initial knockdown and set up year....2 million hectares = 400 trappers. OSPRI reckons they are already employing more ground contractors for the farm work they are doing. There are actually people that prefer to live and work in remote areas and are prepared to forgo the dubious benefits of a cafe/cappuccino lifestyle.

Trapping has already been proven to be effective with OSPRI and DOC employing, and paying, the successful trappers for work that is superior to 1080. Trappers have even been used to clean up failed poison blocks.

The only people that are very opposed to the competitive tendering of output contracts are the people that work in the poison industry and are totally reliant on input contracts for their financial existence.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #50 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:39am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:34am:
gonehuntin wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 9:51am:
understood, and fair argument about the tenders too.  are you saying you could control possum rats and mustelids at a competitive price to aerial 1080 or just possums ?  or a better job but more expensive but with longer interval before follow up?



Although my experience is with possums, I have spoken to the successful rat trappers and I believe that I can use my skills on targeting other animals as well as possums. In fact, many of the animals can be targeted at the same time as possums, using the same traps set for possums.

I believe that trappers can do a better, more cost effective job than 1080 within the 1080 budgets that are currently being spent. We have to surmise about the real cost of aerial 1080 as DOC and OSPRI refuse to release any individual 1080 operational budgets, citing commercial sensitivity as the reason for keeping the budgets out of the public view. We know that DOC and OSPRI start quoting 1080 at around $16/ha and, when pushed, they will lift this price to above $30/ha, AHB, in the 2010 cost review, wrote that aerial 1080 was costing $45+/ha and when individual 1080 operational components were added up the figure was very close to $60/ha. I have received an internal DOC budget for an aerial 1080 operation that has $60/ha as the quoted price. Prior to the Hunua 1080 operation, the Auckland Council staff produced a budget, of $17-18/ha, for approval by the Council, after the operation the cost expenditure quoted was over $34/ha, when asked why the price had doubled, from the pre-operation budget to what was spent, the response was that Auckland Council staff had no experience in using 1080 and had relied on advice from Environment Waikato and DOC to formulate the pre-operation budget and the advice received was wrong. None of these costings include all the costs of aerial 1080 with many expenditure components being a part of the DOC/OSPRI/Regional Council general expenditure and are never quantified.

Aerial 1080 and trapping are two totally different ways of going about achieving the same result and need to be looked at differently when long term planning is being done. Aerial 1080 is a series of one-off operations that take place 3-5 times in a 10 year period. Trapping is a continuous process that has phases. The first phase being the initial knock-down followed on by the maintenance phase, which is set up and established during the first phase.

In both methods, the 10-20 year planning time frame, currently being used by DOC and OSPRI, is essential for effective control. From a contractors point of view, the 1080 contractors need a long term guarantee of work to justify the expense of investing in expensive infrastructure and, from a trappers perspective, the longer the term of the contract the greater the incentive to lower the animal numbers to very low densities in the first year.

What is happening is that, although the 1080 contractors can rely on work over a 10 year period, the publicly promoted line is that all wild animal control is short term one-off contracts with the trappers being offered contract terms of between 3-12 months. This is highly inefficient and does not put the trappers skills to the best use. As an example, if the target is 5%RTC, the short term contractor will target 5%, on a 10 year contract the trapper will target 0%RTC, in the first year, knowing that the better the job done, in the first year, the less work will need to be done in the remaining 9 years. The trapping methods are different too, with leg-holds being used in the first phase and kill traps being used in the second phase. There are contracts that have succeeded in getting down to <1%, using leg-holds, and then maintaining <1% by the use of kill traps that are being checked 3-4 times per year.

Rats are different in that there needs to be a base-line continuous trapping pressure applied with added trapping intensity when there are unusual rat eruptions. The work has been done to prove that effective rat control can be achieved through the use of traps. The key to making rat trapping more effective, in the future, is to start collecting tree flowering quantities, success of pollination, predicted seed-fall and actual seed-fall as this information will provide a pattern that trappers can use to predict rat eruptions and alter their trapping programmes to compensate.

Cats, ferrets and hedghogs can be targeted at the same time as possums when leg-holds are being used. Kill traps can be used after the leg-holds have been removed.

Stoats can be trapped in the rat specific trap-sets and can also be targeted with stoat specific trap-sets.

Wasps are now considered to be a major predator of insects and bird chicks and the new wasp control system can be easily and cheaply deployed by the trappers as they go about their activities.

The key difference is that trapping can apply continuous pressure and maintain a consistent population density, while 1080 can only achieve a one-off reduction and then the population rises until the next 1080 application, which can cause a boom-bust situation, in rats, that maybe as damaging as doing nothing unless 1080 is applied, more often, to compensate.

While the focus is tying trappers to short term contracts and guaranteeing 1080 contractors work over the long term, there can never be competitive tendering as the system has been designed to make trappers inefficient and provide long term financial security for the 1080 contractors. This situation is further complicated by trappers performance being the best under output contracts (paid on results) and 1080 contractors only being prepared to sign input contracts (paid on work completed regardless of the results).

These issues have been canvassed between DOC and trappers, with the memorable DOC statement, made last year, being "DOC has no appetite for change" to which my response was "Well, we will just have work to increase DOC's appetite". DOC has accepted that change could happen and there are good reasons for making the change, with the change needing the will change and that has to come from the people who are making the decisions who are the elected politicians. There is a will for change in the Conservancies and this will is being overridden by instructions from Wellington.




Rat traps, I presume these are GN24s at what density ?

Stoats in rat specific trap sets  ? Expand this please ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #51 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:33am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:39am:
Rat traps, I presume these are GN24s at what density ?

Stoats in rat specific trap sets  ? Expand this please ?


The most commonly used rat specific trap is the Victor Professional snap trap. This is the main trap that has been used at the Urewera Mainland Island for 20 years. Stoats are caught in these traps. The latest rat specific trap is the Good Nature self-setting rat trap and stoats are not caught in these traps.

At this stage, for both the trap types, the cost of the rat kills is around $5/rat killing power purchased. This means that the Victor traps are cheaper to purchase as only the required killing power needs to be paid for as the individual Victor rat kills can be spread out, whereas, the whole 24 Good Nature rat kills must be put in the same place regardless of whether the kills will be used or not.

The trap density is related to the rat population density and is not able to be quantified until the block has been identified, the target rat density has been set and the trappers start working and discover how the rat population is behaving.

The way the rat trapping system works is the number of traps is established to keep the rats below the target threshold during the normal, background rat density and more traps are added during unusual rat eruptions. Bait stations have been added during unusual rat eruptions and this has the same effect as adding more traps into the system.

Over a given area the rat density can change markedly and the density of traps needed will be different depending on localised rat densities.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #52 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:49pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:33am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:39am:
Rat traps, I presume these are GN24s at what density ?

Stoats in rat specific trap sets  ? Expand this please ?


The most commonly used rat specific trap is the Victor Professional snap trap. This is the main trap that has been used at the Urewera Mainland Island for 20 years. Stoats are caught in these traps. The latest rat specific trap is the Good Nature self-setting rat trap and stoats are not caught in these traps.

At this stage, for both the trap types, the cost of the rat kills is around $5/rat killing power purchased. This means that the Victor traps are cheaper to purchase as only the required killing power needs to be paid for as the individual Victor rat kills can be spread out, whereas, the whole 24 Good Nature rat kills must be put in the same place regardless of whether the kills will be used or not.

The trap density is related to the rat population density and is not able to be quantified until the block has been identified, the target rat density has been set and the trappers start working and discover how the rat population is behaving.

The way the rat trapping system works is the number of traps is established to keep the rats below the target threshold during the normal, background rat density and more traps are added during unusual rat eruptions. Bait stations have been added during unusual rat eruptions and this has the same effect as adding more traps into the system.

Over a given area the rat density can change markedly and the density of traps needed will be different depending on localised rat densities.


What does the first highlighted bit mean ? A Victor trap [that cost $10, not $5] has the same cost as a GN per kill ? 

I really struggle with the idea you could use Victor traps in beech forest. In my trapping experience mice will have removed the bait overnight, mostly without tripping the trap but sometimes being caught and i am not trapping in beech forest . I have almost given up using Victor rat traps because of mice. I know other trapping groups that are the same and are using mouse excluders to protect bait from mice.

Bait stations ? What bait would you be using ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #53 - Aug 10th, 2018 at 11:21pm
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:49pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 10:33am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:39am:
Rat traps, I presume these are GN24s at what density ?

Stoats in rat specific trap sets  ? Expand this please ?


The most commonly used rat specific trap is the Victor Professional snap trap. This is the main trap that has been used at the Urewera Mainland Island for 20 years. Stoats are caught in these traps. The latest rat specific trap is the Good Nature self-setting rat trap and stoats are not caught in these traps.

At this stage, for both the trap types, the cost of the rat kills is around $5/rat killing power purchased. This means that the Victor traps are cheaper to purchase as only the required killing power needs to be paid for as the individual Victor rat kills can be spread out, whereas, the whole 24 Good Nature rat kills must be put in the same place regardless of whether the kills will be used or not.

The trap density is related to the rat population density and is not able to be quantified until the block has been identified, the target rat density has been set and the trappers start working and discover how the rat population is behaving.

The way the rat trapping system works is the number of traps is established to keep the rats below the target threshold during the normal, background rat density and more traps are added during unusual rat eruptions. Bait stations have been added during unusual rat eruptions and this has the same effect as adding more traps into the system.

Over a given area the rat density can change markedly and the density of traps needed will be different depending on localised rat densities.


What does the first highlighted bit mean ? A Victor trap [that cost $10, not $5] has the same cost as a GN per kill ? 

I really struggle with the idea you could use Victor traps in beech forest. In my trapping experience mice will have removed the bait overnight, mostly without tripping the trap but sometimes being caught and i am not trapping in beech forest . I have almost given up using Victor rat traps because of mice. I know other trapping groups that are the same and are using mouse excluders to protect bait from mice.

Bait stations ? What bait would you be using ?


The quote I have, from a NZ Victor trap importer, is just under $5 each. The equation relates to the killing power purchased. One killing power is one trap set-off. 24 x $5 =$120 and the cost of 1 Good Nature is around $120.

Here is an international price in US dollars. Do the $$ conversion, add taxes and the price is under $5 each.

https://www.amazon.com/Victor-Traps-M326-9Traps-VST010/dp/B002Y5US3S

24 Victors can be spread over a larger area than 1 Good Nature.

The Victor treadles have a lure impregnated into them so the lure you put on adds to what is already there. Contract trappers are very good at designing ways around problems encountered, when it affects their bottom line, and they will find ways of dealing with problems encountered or they won't get paid. All the current methods of using poison were first used by possum hunters, which were then adopted and improved by the poison industry, this includes the encapsulation of poisons.

The Victors are working well in many areas and are effectively controlling rat numbers.

Cholicolciferol was used in the Urewera during an unusual rat eruption. Adding more traps would have done the same job and I would prefer to use more traps.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #54 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:52am
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You gotta build a box to put the trap in, that will add $6 , without the  labour building it.

I would of thought Victors would of had to of been in a higher density than the GN as the GNs are continually catching. Soon as the bait has been eaten by a mouse or the trap has triggered it has stopped working, you have not got a dogs show of checking and clearing all those traps .

I wouldnt use a Victor just using the plastic treadle as a lure and i would think any pro trapper would be the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aql_gFGRGoI







  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #55 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:06am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:52am:
You gotta build a box to put the trap in, that will add $6 , without the  labour building it.

I would of thought Victors would of had to of been in a higher density than the GN as the GNs are continually catching. Soon as the bait has been eaten by a mouse or the trap has triggered it has stopped working, you have not got a dogs show of checking and clearing all those traps .

I wouldnt use a Victor just using the plastic treadle as a lure and i would think any pro trapper would be the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aql_gFGRGoI


I don't have to build a box-set simply because you are using a box-set.

I wouldn't use a box-set because box-sets are expensive to make, time consuming to move around and an unknown percentage of stoats will not enter the box-sets.

I would use natural materials, to create trap-sets, and I would consider using other easily transportable materials, like wire mesh, as has been used elsewhere.

Your comment about traps stopping working doesn't make any sense. 24 Victors can set-off 24 times and 1 Good Nature trap can set-off 24 times. The difference being that 24 rats have to come to 1 Good Nature trap-set while 24 Victor traps can be spread out over a larger area. This means that, in a low rat density environment, the Good Nature might only kill 2-3 rats and have 22-23 set-offs that don't happen, while the spread out Victors could kill 24 rats and have no unused set-offs over the same time period.

The fact of the matter is, there are trappers clearing and setting large numbers of Victors and achieving effective rat control.

There are many different ways of luring traps other than smearing peanut butter. An example could be taken from possum trapping in pine forests where trap theft was a problem, some trappers stopped luring with visible flour and started squirting oil based lure behind the trap. The problem was that the possums and rats chewed the oil coated bark and the chewed bark ended up being a visual attraction.

With a treadle set trap, the animal doesn't need to eat anything, all you have to do is encourage the animal to investigate the trap-set. This is why leg-hold traps are so effective where possums have become poison-shy as the trap is passive, whereas, the act of eating is active and the animal must make a decision to eat something. You could try wrapping a piece of good smelling cloth where you smear peanut butter, or hang the cloth above the trap and haze the trap in a way that the rat must walk on the treadle to investigate the trap-set.....There are many ways to lure a trap-set that is only limited by your imagination.

The fact that we have different ways of looking at things and you do not believe that what other people are successfully doing is a solution for you, is a very good reason for tendering output performance contracts so that best, most cost effective methods will end up being utilised.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #56 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:57am
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I have just gone and checked 6 [1 stoat and 5 Victor rat]  of my local traps while taking the dog for a run. 2 i have not checked them for over a week. I caught 1 mouse , had 1 sprung empty and the other 3 traps  had the peanut butter completely eaten off the treadle and were not going to catch anything. Those 5 were examples of traps that were not going to catch anything. If the peanut butter had been eaten off those traps in the first night it makes there catching ability even less successful ? Stick those traps in a high mouse area and the bait would be eaten off the traps by the time you had walked to the next trap !!!


I am not going to go over the boxes again as it is pointless but trapping in weka, kiwi and certainly kea areas it would be legally mandatory i would think, if not legally it certainly would be morally. You are there trapping to save birds not let them walk into traps.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #57 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 4:12am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:06am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:52am:
You gotta build a box to put the trap in, that will add $6 , without the  labour building it.

I would of thought Victors would of had to of been in a higher density than the GN as the GNs are continually catching. Soon as the bait has been eaten by a mouse or the trap has triggered it has stopped working, you have not got a dogs show of checking and clearing all those traps .

I wouldnt use a Victor just using the plastic treadle as a lure and i would think any pro trapper would be the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aql_gFGRGoI


I don't have to build a box-set simply because you are using a box-set.

I wouldn't use a box-set because box-sets are expensive to make, time consuming to move around and an unknown percentage of stoats will not enter the box-sets.

I would use natural materials, to create trap-sets, and I would consider using other easily transportable materials, like wire mesh, as has been used elsewhere.

Your comment about traps stopping working doesn't make any sense. 24 Victors can set-off 24 times and 1 Good Nature trap can set-off 24 times. The difference being that 24 rats have to come to 1 Good Nature trap-set while 24 Victor traps can be spread out over a larger area. This means that, in a low rat density environment, the Good Nature might only kill 2-3 rats and have 22-23 set-offs that don't happen, while the spread out Victors could kill 24 rats and have no unused set-offs over the same time period.

The fact of the matter is, there are trappers clearing and setting large numbers of Victors and achieving effective rat control.

There are many different ways of luring traps other than smearing peanut butter. An example could be taken from possum trapping in pine forests where trap theft was a problem, some trappers stopped luring with visible flour and started squirting oil based lure behind the trap. The problem was that the possums and rats chewed the oil coated bark and the chewed bark ended up being a visual attraction.

With a treadle set trap, the animal doesn't need to eat anything, all you have to do is encourage the animal to investigate the trap-set. This is why leg-hold traps are so effective where possums have become poison-shy as the trap is passive, whereas, the act of eating is active and the animal must make a decision to eat something. You could try wrapping a piece of good smelling cloth where you smear peanut butter, or hang the cloth above the trap and haze the trap in a way that the rat must walk on the treadle to investigate the trap-set.....There are many ways to lure a trap-set that is only limited by your imagination.

The fact that we have different ways of looking at things and you do not believe that what other people are successfully doing is a solution for you, is a very good reason for tendering output performance contracts so that best, most cost effective methods will end up being utilised.


To my mind part of what makes a good trapper is the ability of the trapper to get the animal to present itself to get a clean kill.

The reason that you smear the peanut butter on the treadle is that you are encouraging the animal to stick its head on the treadle presenting its head so the kill bar can get a clean kill. Getting the animal close to the trap so it can catch "somewhere" is pretty ugly at best.


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #58 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:35am
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5000ha for 1 trapper?  that seems a very large area for 1 guy to do effectively, what sort of trap densities would you be proposing for such operation?

I think the only way you would ever get doc onboard would be a proposal that involved a valley or similar layout where 1 side could get docs normal 1080 treatment and the otherside you could undertake your trapping masterplan and compare progress and results. I guess a control area for a natural population comparison would be helpful aswell.

are you totally against any toxins marty?  As I think many have their place.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #59 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:55am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:57am:
I have just gone and checked 6 [1 stoat and 5 Victor rat]  of my local traps while taking the dog for a run. 2 i have not checked them for over a week. I caught 1 mouse , had 1 sprung empty and the other 3 traps  had the peanut butter completely eaten off the treadle and were not going to catch anything. Those 5 were examples of traps that were not going to catch anything. If the peanut butter had been eaten off those traps in the first night it makes there catching ability even less successful ? Stick those traps in a high mouse area and the bait would be eaten off the traps by the time you had walked to the next trap !!!


I am not going to go over the boxes again as it is pointless but trapping in weka, kiwi and certainly kea areas it would be legally mandatory i would think, if not legally it certainly would be morally. You are there trapping to save birds not let them walk into traps.


You have a system that works for you and other people have systems that work for them.

The system I am describing has worked effectively, for 20 years, and has used trap-sets created with materials, other than wooden boxes, that deters birds. The only things that I have against wooden box-sets is that they are bulky, are time expensive to deploy, deter some stoats from entering and there are other alternatives, already in use, that resolve these problems.

The system I am describing has also relied on Victor traps and has achieved effective rat control before and after Good Nature traps were invented. I don't have any real problems with Good Nature traps, except for the purchase price, and I can see places, such as very high rat densities, where I will be able to use them to their best potential.

I'm not sure why you are criticising, so harshly, a system that doesn't work for you and does work for others.

When the Victor No.1 leg-holds were introduced to the NZ market, trappers wouldn't use them claiming things like: they are too small, they won't hold big possums, they are hard too set and some trappers bought a few and claimed they didn't work as well as gins and No.1 1/2s. I was one of the first trappers to switch totally to No.1s, on a successful performance contract, I might add. Within a decade, the original detractors had switched to No.1s and were singing the virtues of small, light, can carry more traps, will hold possums caught by the toes, can be set to not catch rats, etc and the reasons used to earlier nay-say were no longer being heard.

There is no "best practice prescribed formula" for any animal control as the needs change with the block, the weather, time of year, animal density, what they are feeding on, where they are feeding, what the required outcome is, etc. The only way there can be ongoing, consistent, effective control is to employ experienced trappers that have learned how to deal with all the variables and the only way you can get the best, and improving, results is to let output contracts where the trappers are paid on results. This will encourage healthy competition as good trappers are very individualistic, like to think they can do things the best and will be continuously working to improve their performance to, not only, be better wild animal controllers, but, to improve their own financial returns as well.

While healthy debate, about effective methods, is important, the debate becomes unhealthy, and stymies innovation, when any one method is dictated as being the only method to be used and the work is then contracted out on "best practice prescribed formula" type input contracts, where the animal control results become secondary to completing a prescribed formula of work. This is the situation we find ourselves in today, with the output contract thinking trappers being excluded and any innovation is being driven by the needs of government managers, politicians and scientists, very few of whom have any personal, hands-on experience with full time wild animal control work.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #60 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:09am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:35am:
5000ha for 1 trapper?  that seems a very large area for 1 guy to do effectively, what sort of trap densities would you be proposing for such operation?

I think the only way you would ever get doc onboard would be a proposal that involved a valley or similar layout where 1 side could get docs normal 1080 treatment and the otherside you could undertake your trapping masterplan and compare progress and results. I guess a control area for a natural population comparison would be helpful aswell.

are you totally against any toxins marty?  As I think many have their place.


DOC has been employing good trappers for over 30 years with effective rat trapping going on for 20 years. DOC knows the excellent results that good trappers can achieve.

Around 5,000ha/per trapper is what is being achieved already.

I'm not against toxins, I have used cyanide. I don't like toxins that leave behind a toxic carcass that can poison the next animal in the food chain.

There is one, privately invented, rat control system that is using 1st generation anti-coagulents for good results, that, I am told, leaves behind a non-toxic carcass. I have talked with the inventor, however, he cannot get permission to use the system on DOC land, without adequate testing, and he can't afford the testing and DOC refuses to help. This is one poison system that I would like to trial on a rat control contract.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #61 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 10:12am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:55am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:57am:
I have just gone and checked 6 [1 stoat and 5 Victor rat]  of my local traps while taking the dog for a run. 2 i have not checked them for over a week. I caught 1 mouse , had 1 sprung empty and the other 3 traps  had the peanut butter completely eaten off the treadle and were not going to catch anything. Those 5 were examples of traps that were not going to catch anything. If the peanut butter had been eaten off those traps in the first night it makes there catching ability even less successful ? Stick those traps in a high mouse area and the bait would be eaten off the traps by the time you had walked to the next trap !!!


I am not going to go over the boxes again as it is pointless but trapping in weka, kiwi and certainly kea areas it would be legally mandatory i would think, if not legally it certainly would be morally. You are there trapping to save birds not let them walk into traps.


You have a system that works for you and other people have systems that work for them.

The system I am describing has worked effectively, for 20 years, and has used trap-sets created with materials, other than wooden boxes, that deters birds. The only things that I have against wooden box-sets is that they are bulky, are time expensive to deploy, deter some stoats from entering and there are other alternatives, already in use, that resolve these problems.

The system I am describing has also relied on Victor traps and has achieved effective rat control before and after Good Nature traps were invented. I don't have any real problems with Good Nature traps, except for the purchase price, and I can see places, such as very high rat densities, where I will be able to use them to their best potential.

I'm not sure why you are criticising, so harshly, a system that doesn't work for you and does work for others.

When the Victor No.1 leg-holds were introduced to the NZ market, trappers wouldn't use them claiming things like: they are too small, they won't hold big possums, they are hard too set and some trappers bought a few and claimed they didn't work as well as gins and No.1 1/2s. I was one of the first trappers to switch totally to No.1s, on a successful performance contract, I might add. Within a decade, the original detractors had switched to No.1s and were singing the virtues of small, light, can carry more traps, will hold possums caught by the toes, can be set to not catch rats, etc and the reasons used to earlier nay-say were no longer being heard.

There is no "best practice prescribed formula" for any animal control as the needs change with the block, the weather, time of year, animal density, what they are feeding on, where they are feeding, what the required outcome is, etc. The only way there can be ongoing, consistent, effective control is to employ experienced trappers that have learned how to deal with all the variables and the only way you can get the best, and improving, results is to let output contracts where the trappers are paid on results. This will encourage healthy competition as good trappers are very individualistic, like to think they can do things the best and will be continuously working to improve their performance to, not only, be better wild animal controllers, but, to improve their own financial returns as well.

While healthy debate, about effective methods, is important, the debate becomes unhealthy, and stymies innovation, when any one method is dictated as being the only method to be used and the work is then contracted out on "best practice prescribed formula" type input contracts, where the animal control results become secondary to completing a prescribed formula of work. This is the situation we find ourselves in today, with the output contract thinking trappers being excluded and any innovation is being driven by the needs of government managers, politicians and scientists, very few of whom have any personal, hands-on experience with full time wild animal control work.


It is not just my experience that i am quoting.
Other groups comment that mice are a big issue to the point that mouse excluders have been designed so that baits last in the set. Note these are not rat type baits , they are baits designed for stoats, meat based. In a year of high rodent numbers the peanut butter on your rat trap will be gone before you clear the next trap.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #62 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 10:26am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 10:12am:
Marty Foote wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 7:55am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 3:57am:
I have just gone and checked 6 [1 stoat and 5 Victor rat]  of my local traps while taking the dog for a run. 2 i have not checked them for over a week. I caught 1 mouse , had 1 sprung empty and the other 3 traps  had the peanut butter completely eaten off the treadle and were not going to catch anything. Those 5 were examples of traps that were not going to catch anything. If the peanut butter had been eaten off those traps in the first night it makes there catching ability even less successful ? Stick those traps in a high mouse area and the bait would be eaten off the traps by the time you had walked to the next trap !!!


I am not going to go over the boxes again as it is pointless but trapping in weka, kiwi and certainly kea areas it would be legally mandatory i would think, if not legally it certainly would be morally. You are there trapping to save birds not let them walk into traps.


You have a system that works for you and other people have systems that work for them.

The system I am describing has worked effectively, for 20 years, and has used trap-sets created with materials, other than wooden boxes, that deters birds. The only things that I have against wooden box-sets is that they are bulky, are time expensive to deploy, deter some stoats from entering and there are other alternatives, already in use, that resolve these problems.

The system I am describing has also relied on Victor traps and has achieved effective rat control before and after Good Nature traps were invented. I don't have any real problems with Good Nature traps, except for the purchase price, and I can see places, such as very high rat densities, where I will be able to use them to their best potential.

I'm not sure why you are criticising, so harshly, a system that doesn't work for you and does work for others.

When the Victor No.1 leg-holds were introduced to the NZ market, trappers wouldn't use them claiming things like: they are too small, they won't hold big possums, they are hard too set and some trappers bought a few and claimed they didn't work as well as gins and No.1 1/2s. I was one of the first trappers to switch totally to No.1s, on a successful performance contract, I might add. Within a decade, the original detractors had switched to No.1s and were singing the virtues of small, light, can carry more traps, will hold possums caught by the toes, can be set to not catch rats, etc and the reasons used to earlier nay-say were no longer being heard.

There is no "best practice prescribed formula" for any animal control as the needs change with the block, the weather, time of year, animal density, what they are feeding on, where they are feeding, what the required outcome is, etc. The only way there can be ongoing, consistent, effective control is to employ experienced trappers that have learned how to deal with all the variables and the only way you can get the best, and improving, results is to let output contracts where the trappers are paid on results. This will encourage healthy competition as good trappers are very individualistic, like to think they can do things the best and will be continuously working to improve their performance to, not only, be better wild animal controllers, but, to improve their own financial returns as well.

While healthy debate, about effective methods, is important, the debate becomes unhealthy, and stymies innovation, when any one method is dictated as being the only method to be used and the work is then contracted out on "best practice prescribed formula" type input contracts, where the animal control results become secondary to completing a prescribed formula of work. This is the situation we find ourselves in today, with the output contract thinking trappers being excluded and any innovation is being driven by the needs of government managers, politicians and scientists, very few of whom have any personal, hands-on experience with full time wild animal control work.


It is not just my experience that i am quoting.
Other groups comment that mice are a big issue to the point that mouse excluders have been designed so that baits last in the set. Note these are not rat type baits , they are baits designed for stoats, meat based. In a year of high rodent numbers the peanut butter on your rat trap will be gone before you clear the next trap.


So, it would appear that we are in agreement then?

Good trappers, when faced with a problem, will find a solution that enables the desired outcomes to be achieved. You have found ways to solve your problems and others have found ways to solve their problems.

I would hazard a guess, that if you put a good trapper, that has historically operated in a different area, into your area, he may come up with a different solution, to the one you are using, that achieves the same outcome, or he may try some other ideas and come to the conclusion that you have already found the best solution for the problems you were facing.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #63 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 11:11am
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Agreement .. i dont think so.
One group solved there problems by using the Victor rat traps where there is a very high volunteer base as they are very labour intensive. Traps are spaced every 25 to 50m.

In my opinion you are advocating for the use of Victor traps for the purposes of suiting your arguement as far as making it appear a more cost effective way of trapping. 

If you advocated for the use of GN rat traps then clearly you can show from the Harts Hill experience that they would be effective even at half of best practice rates as was done in that trial. However the fly in the ointment is the initial set up cost of purchasing the traps and that is only the rat traps...
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #64 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:40pm
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 11:11am:
Agreement .. i dont think so.
One group solved there problems by using the Victor rat traps where there is a very high volunteer base as they are very labour intensive. Traps are spaced every 25 to 50m.

In my opinion you are advocating for the use of Victor traps for the purposes of suiting your arguement as far as making it appear a more cost effective way of trapping. 

If you advocated for the use of GN rat traps then clearly you can show from the Harts Hill experience that they would be effective even at half of best practice rates as was done in that trial. However the fly in the ointment is the initial set up cost of purchasing the traps and that is only the rat traps... 


Well, I guess your reply shows the difference with our views.

I want output contracts to be tendered so that the targeted population densities will be achieved in the most cost effective manner. The targeted results will be achieved by the methods that suit the conditions, on any particular block, and this is why output contracts are regularly used in other industries. I am advocating that output contracts be tendered and the trappers are able to choose from all the different control tools available in order to find the best mix for the particular block.

It's interesting because the poison industry contractors are the most vocal opponents of output contracts. This is not surprising as the poison applicators know that they cannot guarantee the final wild animal population density and if they were tied to output contracts they would have a number of failed operations for which they wouldn't get any payments.

You appear to be arguing for the DOC status-quo where some manager or scientist decides what is the "best practice input formula" and this formula must be followed unless there has been trials, controlled by a scientist, that show another method can work better.

Back in the days when possum trapping output contracts were common place, the scientists started studying what the successful trappers were doing. The scientists accompanied the trappers and recorded everything they were doing, expecting to find a "best practice formula" that was achieving the good results. What the scientists found was that the trappers were doing different things and they were doing things based on their personal experiences with trapping possums. The scientists couldn't find a "best practice formula" that could be written for possum trapping as there were many different solutions to the same target. After over 30 years of possum trapping contracts there is still no "best practice formula" for the reason that a "best practice formula" cannot be written and if the development of one was attempted it would have to ignore many aspects of a good trapping operation in order to deliver the sort of document that is expected from a "best practice formula".
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #65 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:00am
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Ok lets get some numbers down and please dont fudge and say it depends on the terrain etc.

How many Victors to do your 5000ha ? How far apart ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #66 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 5:16am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 2:00am:
Ok lets get some numbers down and please dont fudge and say it depends on the terrain etc.

How many Victors to do your 5000ha ? How far apart ?


The short answer to your question is: Enough traps to do the job.

I know you will say that I'm fudging, so I will go into more detail.

If you asked me the number of traps I would be used to control possums I would say: 300-600 traps per trapper.
How many trap-sets?: I don't know.
How long would the traps be down?: I don't know.
All I could tell you, with absolute certainty, is that when I had finished, the possum density would be below the contracted target.

In 2002, the Core Otamatuna rat control block, at Urewera, was 850ha.

There were 1038 traps set with 55% of them set at 25m intervals along the boundary, to stop reinvasion. Leaving 45% to trap the rats that invaded, through the boundary traps, or were still inside the block after the previous trapping. This gives a ratio of 1.2 traps/ha.

1.2 x 5,000 = 5,100 traps.

850ha is not a very large block and if the same trap ratio, 25m spacing along the boundary and 1 trap/1.8ha internally, was applied to a larger block the total traps/ha would come down.

The way that I would look at doing the job is the same as I would go about long term possum control. I would trap, very intensively, in an initial area of the block, aiming to get as close to zero as possible. Then move the intensive trapping outwards, leaving behind enough traps to catch the rats left behind and any rats that get through the boundary traps.

If the long term target was 5%, during December-February, I would be working over the winter to keep the rats as close to 5% as possible knowing that the tunnels are going to record a lowering of the rat population, from November on, as the rats move into the canopy to feed, and  less rats will be recorded in the tunnels.

I would be more concerned with the rat population densities prior to November, than I would be during December-February, because if I do the job right before November, I don't need to worry about the rat results that will be recorded from December on, as my normal background rat trapping will do the job required. I believe that the late winter/early spring trapping is the most important time, as this is when the rats start to increase their breeding rate and if these numbers can be kept low then the birds should have a good breeding season.

I would like to go back to my original statement, "enough traps to do the job" which, as you can see, will be dependent on how many rats are initially encountered, how many rats are left behind, how many rats get through the boundary traps and the rat breeding conditions in any particular year.

There used to be output contract possum trappers that whinged about being failed because their RTC%s were just over the target, those trappers have either moved on or are signing input contracts, and only the best trappers are still signing the few output contracts being tendered.

You might be interested in reading this DOC link as it supports the type of approach I am taking:

https://www.doc.govt.nz/our-work/mainland-islands/te-urewera/docs-work/te-urewer...


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #67 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 7:31am
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marty your idea is flawed as you dont even know what or how many traps you require untill youve got the tender and get in there. probably a good reason behind input instead of output contracts.
the unknowns are the difference between success and going bust.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #68 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:31am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 7:31am:
marty your idea is flawed as you dont even know what or how many traps you require untill youve got the tender and get in there. probably a good reason behind input instead of output contracts.
the unknowns are the difference between success and going bust.


You are right. Except that you have placed the preferences for the types of contracts in the wrong order.

I won't commit myself signing an output contract without the details of the required output target and the details of the block that I am signing up to. When I have signed the contract I don't expect to be paid unless I lower the animal populations to the required density.

Without an expression of interest, along with the output details, issued by the buyer of the services, I can't even get to square one. AND DOC continues to issue input contract tenders and claims that they are employing ground contractors to the best effect.

The unknowns are the reasons for contractor success or failure on output contracts. The more experienced the contractor the less the unknowns are and the less times the targeted outcomes will be failed.

Contrast this with the failure risk being borne by the people that design input contracts, that have no penalty if their ideas and methods don't work.

Which system would be better long term, an input contracting system where nobody is accountable for failure or an output contract system where the contractor only gets paid after he has achieved the desired results?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #69 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:37am
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5100 rat traps half of which will be spaced 25m apart, the other half spaced 100m apart. How many km of trap line are you running and how long will it be between visiting a trap and the next visit to that trap ?

I dont think you fudged your answer at all and there was 3 things i took off your link.
1.poison will have to be used esp in the early knock down phase.
2. the operation required trapperS, note the plural and that was only 850ha.
3. i certainly believe it is worth trying, i just struggle that one trapper will be able to cover 5000ha.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #70 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 10:23am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:37am:
5100 rat traps half of which will be spaced 25m apart, the other half spaced 100m apart. How many km of trap line are you running and how long will it be between visiting a trap and the next visit to that trap ?

I dont think you fudged your answer at all and there was 3 things i took off your link.
1.poison will have to be used esp in the early knock down phase.
2. the operation required trapperS, note the plural and that was only 850ha.
3. i certainly believe it is worth trying, i just struggle that one trapper will be able to cover 5000ha.


OK, here are the things about poison at Urewera...Poison was a very limited commodity as Tuhoe stated they didn't want the use of heaps of poison and this is the only reason why DOC used trapping instead of the normal aerial 1080 applications.

Trapping was used from the start and was achieving the good results. DOC wasn't allowed to drop 1080 and DOC trialed Brodificum, in bait stations, over some of the block. This was quickly stopped when over half the deer shot from this area tested positive to poison residue.

The rat populations, I was talking about, were the product of trapping only. There was a later year, after DOC had allowed the rat trapping budget to run down, and there was a rat eruption that needed to be dealt with and the cheapest, short term option, was to deploy poison, in bait stations, as there were not enough traps, or trappers, available to deal with the rat eruption that happened.

With regards to your questions about the length of any trap lines I have run and the amount of time spent servicing them, I cannot give you any definitive answers as my focus has always been on the final successful outcome and I would expect the same positive results for any wild animal control output contract that I sign.

Specific trap-line lengths and specific amounts of time to service the trap-lines are in the domain of the input contractor and is how the worth of an input contractor is measured.

I am an output contractor and the worth of an output contractor is measured by the output results he achieves.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #71 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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You wont give an answer how long your trap lines are because they are WAY to long for a single trapper to cover . 5000ha is just not coverable for a single trapper who is using Victor rat traps. The humble little mouse will see to that.
You work it out, half your 5100 traps are 25m apart and half are 100m apart. Tell me what that the trap line length is ? 
You then have your stoats and possums traps to clear as well, [possums have to be cleared daily if using leg holds as you know] and you said you could do wasps as well ! You wont be wearing boots, you will need sprinting shoes .

You put up the post "Lessons learnt", one of the lessons was poison had to be used and the other was trappers plural and that was only 850ha not your 5000ha.

Victors aint going to do it. Invest  half to three quarters of a million dollars worth of GN traps and then run your Victors if you must and you might have a show.

Like i said it is worth a try.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #72 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:11am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
You wont give an answer how long your trap lines are because they are WAY to long for a single trapper to cover . 5000ha is just not coverable for a single trapper who is using Victor rat traps. The humble little mouse will see to that.
You work it out, half your 5100 traps are 25m apart and half are 100m apart. Tell me what that the trap line length is ? 
You then have your stoats and possums traps to clear as well, [possums have to be cleared daily if using leg holds as you know] and you said you could do wasps as well ! You wont be wearing boots, you will need sprinting shoes .

You put up the post "Lessons learnt", one of the lessons was poison had to be used and the other was trappers plural and that was only 850ha not your 5000ha.

Victors aint going to do it. Invest  half to three quarters of a million dollars worth of GN traps and then run your Victors if you must and you might have a show.

Like i said it is worth a try.


You are ignoring four things:

1) Trapper are covering 5,000ha as we speak. This is a fact. Just because you say it is not true doesn't make it so.

2) Victor traps are working. The work in the Urewera has been done with Victor traps. Good Nature traps were trialed, at Urewera, and rejected as not being as reliable as Victors. Good Nature then used the Urewera trappers as a leaning experience by asking the trappers to trial the Good Nature traps as the original design, rejected by the trappers, was improved. To put it bluntly, the only reason why Good Nature traps are as good as they are is because of the input by the trappers at Urewera.

3) The report does state "trappers", as in more than one trapper, more than one species and the trappers were covering 50,000ha in total.

4) Poison was initially used on a trial basis and was rejected. Poison was used again, after DOC slashed the budget and allowed the experienced rat trapper numbers to go down and, as a direct result of the slashed budget, DOC got caught out with an unusual rat eruption year, which required the use of inexperienced people to set out bait stations to a "best practice formula". If DOC had not slashed the budget and the experienced trapper numbers had been maintained there would have been no need to use any poisons.

I get the impression that you are personally benefiting from the rat control you are involved with. If this is true you are riding the same gravy train that is supporting the aerial 1080 industry.

Your arguments and wording are very similar to what DOC used to throw at me. DOC has stopped throwing BS since I started throwing the truth back at them. I suggest that you do the same as DOC, if your real intention is to find the best wild animal control solution.

You will also note that the work, I quoted from, was done in 2002, nearly a decade after the trapping work started. This means that the work has been going on for over 20 years and trapping contractors are still being employed.

One of the lessons learned, that is not mentioned in the DOC article, is the fact that possum contractors are more cost effective if contracts are tendered over a number of years and are not issued on a short term basis. In case you are having some trouble with written comprehension skills, this means that DOC has learned that the best use of trappers is to use long term output contracts.

You are never going to convince me that the trapping work is not happening, simply because DOC doesn't promote effective trapping as heavily as DOC promotes their preferred control methods, which includes the use of free, inexperienced, volunteer labour that require a step-by-step prescriptive "best practice formula", similar to what you are demanding of me.

When you started making posts and questioning me, I thought, at first, you were really interested in finding the best solution. I now believe that you do not want any changes to be made that will interfere with your current activities.

I suggest that you do some very real and hard thinking about the future of your wild animal control work as you could easily become a failure statistic the same as the failed possum contractors I mentioned earlier.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #73 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 2:41am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:11am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
You wont give an answer how long your trap lines are because they are WAY to long for a single trapper to cover . 5000ha is just not coverable for a single trapper who is using Victor rat traps. The humble little mouse will see to that.
You work it out, half your 5100 traps are 25m apart and half are 100m apart. Tell me what that the trap line length is ? 
You then have your stoats and possums traps to clear as well, [possums have to be cleared daily if using leg holds as you know] and you said you could do wasps as well ! You wont be wearing boots, you will need sprinting shoes .

You put up the post "Lessons learnt", one of the lessons was poison had to be used and the other was trappers plural and that was only 850ha not your 5000ha.

Victors aint going to do it. Invest  half to three quarters of a million dollars worth of GN traps and then run your Victors if you must and you might have a show.

Like i said it is worth a try.


You are ignoring four things:

1) Trapper are covering 5,000ha as we speak. This is a fact. Just because you say it is not true doesn't make it so.

2) Victor traps are working. The work in the Urewera has been done with Victor traps. Good Nature traps were trialed, at Urewera, and rejected as not being as reliable as Victors. Good Nature then used the Urewera trappers as a leaning experience by asking the trappers to trial the Good Nature traps as the original design, rejected by the trappers, was improved. To put it bluntly, the only reason why Good Nature traps are as good as they are is because of the input by the trappers at Urewera.

3) The report does state "trappers", as in more than one trapper, more than one species and the trappers were covering 50,000ha in total.

4) Poison was initially used on a trial basis and was rejected. Poison was used again, after DOC slashed the budget and allowed the experienced rat trapper numbers to go down and, as a direct result of the slashed budget, DOC got caught out with an unusual rat eruption year, which required the use of inexperienced people to set out bait stations to a "best practice formula". If DOC had not slashed the budget and the experienced trapper numbers had been maintained there would have been no need to use any poisons.

I get the impression that you are personally benefiting from the rat control you are involved with. If this is true you are riding the same gravy train that is supporting the aerial 1080 industry.

Your arguments and wording are very similar to what DOC used to throw at me. DOC has stopped throwing BS since I started throwing the truth back at them. I suggest that you do the same as DOC, if your real intention is to find the best wild animal control solution.

You will also note that the work, I quoted from, was done in 2002, nearly a decade after the trapping work started. This means that the work has been going on for over 20 years and trapping contractors are still being employed.

One of the lessons learned, that is not mentioned in the DOC article, is the fact that possum contractors are more cost effective if contracts are tendered over a number of years and are not issued on a short term basis. In case you are having some trouble with written comprehension skills, this means that DOC has learned that the best use of trappers is to use long term output contracts.

You are never going to convince me that the trapping work is not happening, simply because DOC doesn't promote effective trapping as heavily as DOC promotes their preferred control methods, which includes the use of free, inexperienced, volunteer labour that require a step-by-step prescriptive "best practice formula", similar to what you are demanding of me.

When you started making posts and questioning me, I thought, at first, you were really interested in finding the best solution. I now believe that you do not want any changes to be made that will interfere with your current activities.

I suggest that you do some very real and hard thinking about the future of your wild animal control work as you could easily become a failure statistic the same as the failed possum contractors I mentioned earlier.




Yes you have obviously done your homework . TH, Oscar and myself yes we own the 1080 plant and we have made our fortunes from the poison industry.  Grin Grin

I have said it before in this thread "your ability to read what you want to read is outstanding"

Go on have a go at answering the question, how long is your rat trap line in km and how many days before you you get round it ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #74 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 2:59am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 2:41am:
Marty Foote wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:11am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
You wont give an answer how long your trap lines are because they are WAY to long for a single trapper to cover . 5000ha is just not coverable for a single trapper who is using Victor rat traps. The humble little mouse will see to that.
You work it out, half your 5100 traps are 25m apart and half are 100m apart. Tell me what that the trap line length is ? 
You then have your stoats and possums traps to clear as well, [possums have to be cleared daily if using leg holds as you know] and you said you could do wasps as well ! You wont be wearing boots, you will need sprinting shoes .

You put up the post "Lessons learnt", one of the lessons was poison had to be used and the other was trappers plural and that was only 850ha not your 5000ha.

Victors aint going to do it. Invest  half to three quarters of a million dollars worth of GN traps and then run your Victors if you must and you might have a show.

Like i said it is worth a try.


You are ignoring four things:

1) Trapper are covering 5,000ha as we speak. This is a fact. Just because you say it is not true doesn't make it so.

2) Victor traps are working. The work in the Urewera has been done with Victor traps. Good Nature traps were trialed, at Urewera, and rejected as not being as reliable as Victors. Good Nature then used the Urewera trappers as a leaning experience by asking the trappers to trial the Good Nature traps as the original design, rejected by the trappers, was improved. To put it bluntly, the only reason why Good Nature traps are as good as they are is because of the input by the trappers at Urewera.

3) The report does state "trappers", as in more than one trapper, more than one species and the trappers were covering 50,000ha in total.

4) Poison was initially used on a trial basis and was rejected. Poison was used again, after DOC slashed the budget and allowed the experienced rat trapper numbers to go down and, as a direct result of the slashed budget, DOC got caught out with an unusual rat eruption year, which required the use of inexperienced people to set out bait stations to a "best practice formula". If DOC had not slashed the budget and the experienced trapper numbers had been maintained there would have been no need to use any poisons.

I get the impression that you are personally benefiting from the rat control you are involved with. If this is true you are riding the same gravy train that is supporting the aerial 1080 industry.

Your arguments and wording are very similar to what DOC used to throw at me. DOC has stopped throwing BS since I started throwing the truth back at them. I suggest that you do the same as DOC, if your real intention is to find the best wild animal control solution.

You will also note that the work, I quoted from, was done in 2002, nearly a decade after the trapping work started. This means that the work has been going on for over 20 years and trapping contractors are still being employed.

One of the lessons learned, that is not mentioned in the DOC article, is the fact that possum contractors are more cost effective if contracts are tendered over a number of years and are not issued on a short term basis. In case you are having some trouble with written comprehension skills, this means that DOC has learned that the best use of trappers is to use long term output contracts.

You are never going to convince me that the trapping work is not happening, simply because DOC doesn't promote effective trapping as heavily as DOC promotes their preferred control methods, which includes the use of free, inexperienced, volunteer labour that require a step-by-step prescriptive "best practice formula", similar to what you are demanding of me.

When you started making posts and questioning me, I thought, at first, you were really interested in finding the best solution. I now believe that you do not want any changes to be made that will interfere with your current activities.

I suggest that you do some very real and hard thinking about the future of your wild animal control work as you could easily become a failure statistic the same as the failed possum contractors I mentioned earlier.




Yes you have obviously done your homework . TH, Oscar and myself yes we own the 1080 plant and we have made our fortunes from the poison industry.  Grin Grin

I have said it before in this thread "your ability to read what you want to read is outstanding"

Go on have a go at answering the question, how long is your rat trap line in km and how many days before you you get round it ?


I think that we have got to the point that talking with you about methods is not going to add anything to the knowledge base as you are so adamant that you are correct and, according to you, what facts I have presented, along with supporting information provided by DOC, are simply figments of my imagination.

TH was a NZFS and DOC manager before he retired. TH was paid to promote the use of 1080 and any other policies that his employer decided was relevant for DOC to promote. TH has continued with his pro-DOC line after he retired.

Oscar is an employee of Beef & Lamb and Beef & Lamb is a major shareholder of OSPRI who is contracted, by the NZ Government, to control possums for the purpose of Bovine TB control. Oscar may well be right that Beef & Lamb is not that interested in Oscar's views, however, we do know that MPI, OSPRI's major funder, is interested in what is being written here and Oscar now knows his posts are being monitored by the very fact that we are in dialogue.

Are you associated with one of the groups DOC is promoting at the link below? If so, can you please tell me which group your are working for.

https://www.doc.govt.nz/canterburygroups
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #75 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 3:21am
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So given everyone else has some sort of financial incentive which doesn't allow them to formulate arguments that stand on their own merit - what is your excuse Marty? - are u trying to benefit commercially from alternative pest management strategy?

Or are you simply OCD afflicted with some sort of irrational mental issue?

You need to grow up...  arguments stand on their own merit, irrespective of the background of the contributor.

Your obsessive need to seek to discredit argument by challenging credibility of people is pathetic.

Again as has been pointed out many times...  you are a liability to the issue because of the approach that you take.

Its tedious..
  

"But thus I counsel you, my friends: Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful. They are people of a low sort and stock; the hangmen and the bloodhound look out of their faces. Mistrust all who talk much of their justice!"  Nietzsche
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #76 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 4:00am
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Marty,

How long is your rat trap line in km and how long will it take you to get around the entire length of it in days ?

Pretty simple really.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #77 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 5:30am
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You might also be interested in the fact that there were 3,643 rats caught in that Otamatuna rat trapping operation. 2, 015 of which were caught in the boundary traps, leaving 1,628 caught in the internally set traps. This gives an internal catch rate of around 2 rats/ha and a total catch rate of 4.3 rats/ha if the boundary traps are included. These are the results of 12 months of trapping.

With these sorts of rat capture rates you can see why the Victor traps are being seen as more a cost effective investment than Good Nature traps.

These rat numbers are not the plague numbers being quoted by DOC and these lower rat populations are common over much of NZ's native forest. DOC is claiming possum numbers often exceed 10 possums/ha and yet for the rat population, at Otamatuna, to exceed 10 rats/ha the trapping can only be killing less than half of the rats, which doesn't make any sense as with such a low percentage kill there would not be the biodiversity benefits, that are occurring, and the traps would be overrun by the breeding capacity of the surviving rat population.

If we look at the boundary traps set at 25m apart this would give a trap-line of 25km for 1,000 traps. If the average walking speed is 4km/hr then it would take 6-7 hours to walk around the traps, let's triple it, to take into account travel to the trap-line and time taken clearing traps, and say 20 hours or 50 traps per hour. The traps were being cleared every 5 weeks and it was found that the boundary traps needed to be cleared more often (3-4 weeks) and the internal traps could be left longer than the boundary traps. Let's use a clearance rate of 12 times/year and divide 50 by 12 to give a rate of around 4 traps cleared/hr over the whole year.

The traps were placed at a rate of 1.2 traps/ha giving an effective rate of rat control of 3.33ha/hour or one hectare costs 18 minutes of time. If a trapper was working 2,000hrs/yr the total number of hectares would be in excess of 6,000ha. Output contractors, who are paid on a per hectare basis, have an incentive to travel faster than a wage worker. There was one young super-fit possum trapper, I was told about, that ran around his traps and was covering twice the area that some other trappers were covering.

This is what has been accomplished and the system can be made even more efficient, per hectare, by increasing the block size and ensuring there are a greater percentage of internal traps and a lower percentage of boundary traps. This operation was largely done on a "prescriptive input formula" model as some of the traps were cleared using volunteer labour and wage workers were employed. If output contractors were employed the work could become even more efficient as the output possum contracting results has already proved.

Add in the possum control where the possum kill traps will be checked at the same time as the rat control, take into account that stoats and cats would be controlled, at very little extra cost, while the rat traps are being cleared and wasps can be controlled at the time they are feeding on protein rich foods.

Does the use contract trappers not make sense when the facts are analysed?

Where am I going wrong, in my calculations, to be so publicly ridiculed by people that would appear to be normal and sane at most other activities they undertake?

If you were an aerial 1080 application contractor or an office based manager whose work involves planning aerial 1080 operations, would you be worried about your future employment if these sorts of competing costing results were made available to the NZ Public?

What would the NZ Public think if DOC did do a real cost/benefit analysis, that covered all the details instead just the positives of 1080 and the negatives of trapping? If all the positives and negatives, of both control methods, were analysed honestly we wouldn't be having this conversation and the best, most cost effective method of wild animal control would be being used.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #78 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 8:36am
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another question for you marty, just outve curiosity what happens if you were to get a long term contract would you not get bored/sick of it walking the same lines over and over years on end?  and dont say an employ someone as you stated yourself in above post wage workers go slow and no incentive,  or would you sub contract and let your contract fate rely on someone else?

My personal opinion is while you have a good theory and principal idea you have bad tunnel vision and/or stubborness and the fact you dont want to listen or take into account the slightest bit of advice or other ideas is letting you down greatly, perhaps why doc wont give you a go at it no roon to negotiate?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #79 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 9:01am
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YOUR reply 66 said, 5100 traps, 55% set on the perimeter the balance set inside. Then we get the maths done it is now a 1000 traps on the perimeter. I guess that is to make the figures fit ?  Cheesy.

Please present credible figures in any future discussion.

Out.







  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #80 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 9:38am
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Quote:
TH was a NZFS and DOC manager before he retired. TH was paid to promote the use of 1080 and any other policies that his employer decided was relevant for DOC to promote. TH has continued with his pro-DOC line after he retired.


Marty Foote. The only contributor to these threads that has a vested interest in promoting one method of pest control over another, is yourself.

You only come onto this forum  to only spread your conspiracy theories, claim secret meetings and information , put your spin on anything to promote your own commercial interests. You contribute nothing to hunting, or have ever posted hunting reports. This forum is your soap box

you are incapable of understanding what is being said  in response to your claims, and can only see it as being some pest control agency backed plot

I have sympathy with the trapping industry , in not getting the recognition due in potentially doing more pest control.

But whenever your have your soapbox rants, slagging everyone you perceive at being apposed to you and the trapping industry, you are showing your ignorance and as yourve been told, its pathetic.

You are not achieving anything, other than being patted on the back by a few who believe your spin.

Its little wonder that government pest control agencies etc don’t want to know you. You cant show any achievements in how pest control might be done, and pissed everyone off. Its probably what pushes your buttons, but it destructive to the industry you claim to be promoting.

By using this forum as  a soapbox for your ranting, you discredit hunters. Just as the loonies on the facebook pages have done.

The fact that you have to resort to discrediting forum members that might not agree with you, simply shows that you don’t have the ability to debate logically so you continually resort to your pathetic personal attacks.

If ever there was a reason to not post on this forum, or even go and find another one, your it
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #81 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 12:30pm
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 8:36am:
another question for you marty, just outve curiosity what happens if you were to get a long term contract would you not get bored/sick of it walking the same lines over and over years on end?  and dont say an employ someone as you stated yourself in above post wage workers go slow and no incentive,  or would you sub contract and let your contract fate rely on someone else?

My personal opinion is while you have a good theory and principal idea you have bad tunnel vision and/or stubborness and the fact you dont want to listen or take into account the slightest bit of advice or other ideas is letting you down greatly, perhaps why doc wont give you a go at it no roon to negotiate?


I'll take you back to the days when output contracts were the norm.

Trappers worked in small groups of 5-6 and there was normally a principle contractor who negotiated and signed the contract who took a cut for taking on this role with the rest of the money being paid out on a per hectare basis.

Input contracts started to be used more often with OSPRI taking the lead from 1990 on and supporting people who would use poison and discriminating against the guys using traps. In the 2010 cost review OSPRI even stated that they got it wrong and had needlessly forced good trappers out of the industry, however, even with the this admission OSPRI continued with the same practices that they admitted had been to the detriment of the contract trapping industry.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #82 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 12:44pm
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 9:01am:
YOUR reply 66 said, 5100 traps, 55% set on the perimeter the balance set inside. Then we get the maths done it is now a 1000 traps on the perimeter. I guess that is to make the figures fit ?  Cheesy.

Please present credible figures in any future discussion.

Out.


I don't understand what you are on about. I took a nice round figure of 1,000 traps gave the length of trap-line, at 25m spacing, and then extrapolated a reasonable time frame for clearing the traps.

To my knowledge, there has been no reports written that go into the detail that you are demanding.

Now that I have provided evidence, from a successful rat control operation, I think it might be a good idea for you to provide the same sort of data from your own rat control operations, including things like the size of the block, number of traps, numbers of rats caught, time spent clearing the traps, etc. I would be really interested in these sorts of figures, particularly, as you seem to have been claiming that the sort of operation, that did take place and has been documented in reports written by DOC, would be impossible for you to achieve.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #83 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:46pm
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Quote:
TH was a NZFS and DOC manager before he retired. TH was paid to promote the use of 1080 and any other policies that his employer decided was relevant for DOC to promote. TH has continued with his pro-DOC line after he retired.


Marty Foote. The only contributor to these threads that has a vested interest in promoting one method of pest control over another, is yourself.

You only come onto this forum  to only spread your conspiracy theories, claim secret meetings and information , put your spin on anything to promote your own commercial interests. You contribute nothing to hunting, or have ever posted hunting reports. This forum is your soap box

you are incapable of understanding what is being said  in response to your claims, and can only see it as being some pest control agency backed plot

I have sympathy with the trapping industry , in not getting the recognition due in potentially doing more pest control.

But whenever your have your soapbox rants, slagging everyone you perceive at being apposed to you and the trapping industry, you are showing your ignorance and as yourve been told, its pathetic.

You are not achieving anything, other than being patted on the back by a few who believe your spin.

Its little wonder that government pest control agencies etc don’t want to know you. You cant show any achievements in how pest control might be done, and pissed everyone off. Its probably what pushes your buttons, but it destructive to the industry you claim to be promoting.

By using this forum as  a soapbox for your ranting, you discredit hunters. Just as the loonies on the facebook pages have done.

The fact that you have to resort to discrediting forum members that might not agree with you, simply shows that you don’t have the ability to debate logically so you continually resort to your pathetic personal attacks.

If ever there was a reason to not post on this forum, or even go and find another one, your it


You and I have always been on opposite sides of the debate, with you being paid to promote aerial 1080 in your role as a DOC manager and me being a trapper that was excluded from doing the work I had proved I could do.

This is not a conspiracy theory, it is a statement of fact. OSPRI even admitted, in the 2010 cost review, that the type of contract tendering, done in the 1990's and which you played a part in promoting, was a mistake with good trappers being driven out of the wild animal control industry.

You've been retired for, what is it?, 12 years now and, presumably, from the way you talk, you seem to have an inside line on what is happening, except that what you say doesn't always tie in with the discussions that I am having with DOC. Yes, DOC is a very reluctant participant in the talks, however, the talks are moving ahead, and this forum is one of the few outlets where all points of view can be presented, without censorship, and is being monitored, by DOC, OSPRI and MPI for the reason that they think the points being made are important enough for them to know what is being publicly said.

When you promote your points of view, which does include personal ridicule of people who believe differently to you, it is the honest expression of your beliefs, when someone, who you don't agree with, does the same, you label them as soap-box orators and conspiracy theorists.

I have backed my statements with evidence, often provided with DOC created data and reports, which you used to demand so strongly when I was having trouble getting copies of the reports, and when I do eventually provide the information you totally ignore the evidence and start making personal attacks on me.

Why don't you go back, look at the information provided and focus your comments on the factual information.

There is a very clear pattern of behaviour with DOC and OSPRI using this pattern with people that have opposing views, the pattern goes something like this:

1) The opposing views are ignored.
2) The opposing views are challenged.
3) Where the views cannot be refuted the promoter of the views is ridiculed and attacked using any related or unrelated information.
4) If, after the ridiculing phase, the opposing person is still around some dialogue is entered into.

I have managed to get through to step 4 and DOC doesn't use the third step anymore, although many of DOC's promotional arms do still continue with the personal attacks.

The only reason why I seem to be the only one is because many of the people involved, and who are feeding me information, cannot openly express their views for fear of punishment in the form of no more contracts or dismissal from their jobs. Before you cry "conspiracy", look back on your days as a DOC manager and ask yourself what happened to any DOC employees who publicly expressed an opinion that was different from the DOC policy of the time.

With regards to your comments about not being able to show any credible examples of effective animal control, I was a successful contract trapper before I started making public statements about the fact that trappers were more effective than 1080, at which point I was unable to sign anymore contracts. There have been many good trappers that have been treated this way and they have all been unable to sign contracts after making public statements that is critical of 1080.

DOC and OSPRI have signed and paid out on many successful wild animal trapping contracts. This is a fact and just because DOC refuses to publicly acknowledge this fact, in any meaningful way, doesn't make the fact any less true.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #84 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 10:57pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 12:44pm:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 9:01am:
YOUR reply 66 said, 5100 traps, 55% set on the perimeter the balance set inside. Then we get the maths done it is now a 1000 traps on the perimeter. I guess that is to make the figures fit ?  Cheesy.

Please present credible figures in any future discussion.

Out.


I don't understand what you are on about. I took a nice round figure of 1,000 traps gave the length of trap-line, at 25m spacing, and then extrapolated a reasonable time frame for clearing the traps.

To my knowledge, there has been no reports written that go into the detail that you are demanding.

Now that I have provided evidence, from a successful rat control operation, I think it might be a good idea for you to provide the same sort of data from your own rat control operations, including things like the size of the block, number of traps, numbers of rats caught, time spent clearing the traps, etc. I would be really interested in these sorts of figures, particularly, as you seem to have been claiming that the sort of operation, that did take place and has been documented in reports written by DOC, would be impossible for you to achieve.


Don't worry about replying Salmoner. I have got a pretty good handle on the trapping work you are doing by reading some of your other posts.

Not quite the same sort of control as is being done elsewhere, however, I guess that every dead stoat and rat is a good thing.

I was surprised to read your praise of the Victor rat traps and how effective they are, considering your rejection of them on this thread.

With regard to the cat you are trying to catch, one of the most effective cat traps is a leg-hold.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #85 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 7:31am
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With regards to your comments about not being able to show any credible examples of effective animal control, I was a successful contract trapper before I started making public statements about the fact that trappers were more effective than 1080, at which point I was unable to sign anymore contracts. There have been many good trappers that have been treated this way and they have all been unable to sign contracts after making public statements that is critical of 1080.

DOC and OSPRI have signed and paid out on many successful wild animal trapping contracts. This is a fact and just because DOC refuses to publicly acknowledge this fact, in any meaningful way, doesn't make the fact any less true.

Dunno what your on about, Marty. I have tendered performance based ground control in remote areas and contracts have been mostly successful. That's never been in question. That doesn't mean that ground control will be competitive/successful everywhere. just as aerial poisoning may not be.

Sidney puts the issue of your style, much better than could
Quote:
So given everyone else has some sort of financial incentive which doesn't allow them to formulate arguments that stand on their own merit - what is your excuse Marty? - are u trying to benefit commercially from alternative pest management strategy?
Or are you simply OCD afflicted with some sort of irrational mental issue?
You need to grow up...  arguments stand on their own merit, irrespective of the background of the contributor.
Your obsessive need to seek to discredit argument by challenging credibility of people is pathetic.

Again as has been pointed out many times...  you are a liability to the issue because of the approach that you take.
Its tedious..

\
what isn't that about that, you don't comprehend Marty??

Threads  always end up with the same
Its not only tedious. It pointless trying to discuss anything

I'll have to learn to stop posting in your threads. Same as others





  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #86 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 8:17am
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Quote:
With regards to your comments about not being able to show any credible examples of effective animal control, I was a successful contract trapper before I started making public statements about the fact that trappers were more effective than 1080, at which point I was unable to sign anymore contracts. There have been many good trappers that have been treated this way and they have all been unable to sign contracts after making public statements that is critical of 1080.

DOC and OSPRI have signed and paid out on many successful wild animal trapping contracts. This is a fact and just because DOC refuses to publicly acknowledge this fact, in any meaningful way, doesn't make the fact any less true.

Dunno what your on about, Marty. I have tendered performance based ground control in remote areas and contracts have been mostly successful. That's never been in question. That doesn't mean that ground control will be competitive/successful everywhere. just as aerial poisoning may not be.

Sidney puts the issue of your style, much better than could
Quote:
So given everyone else has some sort of financial incentive which doesn't allow them to formulate arguments that stand on their own merit - what is your excuse Marty? - are u trying to benefit commercially from alternative pest management strategy?
Or are you simply OCD afflicted with some sort of irrational mental issue?
You need to grow up...  arguments stand on their own merit, irrespective of the background of the contributor.
Your obsessive need to seek to discredit argument by challenging credibility of people is pathetic.

Again as has been pointed out many times...  you are a liability to the issue because of the approach that you take.
Its tedious..

\
what isn't that about that, you don't comprehend Marty??

Threads  always end up with the same
Its not only tedious. It pointless trying to discuss anything

I'll have to learn to stop posting in your threads. Same as others


You are absolutely, 100% right. We are in total agreement with regards to the tendering of contracts.

If the contracts were competitively tendered and paid out on the output performance results required, we would end up with the best, most cost effective methods being used.

The trouble is, none of the contracts are competitively tendered, between competing methods, as DOC and OSPRI make the decision on the method and then ask for tenders, with most of the ground contracts and all of the aerial contracts, being tendered as input contracts where the contractor is paid on work completed, regardless of the output results.

If we are in agreement, that the tendering system is at fault, then let's work together to change the way the tenders are conducted. We would achieve the results we both want.

You would get effective possum and rat control, with no deer deaths where trappers are used, and there wouldn't be the same issue of a lack of deer repellent available for the contracts where 1080 bids win the tender as the amount of 1080 used would go down. And I would get the opportunity to bid on contracts where I think I can do the job.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #87 - Aug 15th, 2018 at 5:38am
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You are absolutely, 100% right. We are in total agreement with regards to the tendering of contracts.

If the contracts were competitively tendered and paid out on the output performance results required, we would end up with the best, most cost effective methods being used.

The trouble is, none of the contracts are competitively tendered, between competing methods, as DOC and OSPRI make the decision on the method and then ask for tenders, with most of the ground contracts and all of the aerial contracts, being tendered as input contracts where the contractor is paid on work completed, regardless of the output results.

If we are in agreement, that the tendering system is at fault, then let's work together to change the way the tenders are conducted. We would achieve the results we both want.

You would get effective possum and rat control, with no deer deaths where trappers are used, and there wouldn't be the same issue of a lack of deer repellent available for the contracts where 1080 bids win the tender as the amount of 1080 used would go down. And I would get the opportunity to bid on contracts where I think I can do the


haha. you gotta be kidding Marty Grin Grin

I never said I agree the tendering system is at fault at all.

More spin from you, Marty.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #88 - Aug 15th, 2018 at 6:15am
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Quote:
You are absolutely, 100% right. We are in total agreement with regards to the tendering of contracts.

If the contracts were competitively tendered and paid out on the output performance results required, we would end up with the best, most cost effective methods being used.

The trouble is, none of the contracts are competitively tendered, between competing methods, as DOC and OSPRI make the decision on the method and then ask for tenders, with most of the ground contracts and all of the aerial contracts, being tendered as input contracts where the contractor is paid on work completed, regardless of the output results.

If we are in agreement, that the tendering system is at fault, then let's work together to change the way the tenders are conducted. We would achieve the results we both want.

You would get effective possum and rat control, with no deer deaths where trappers are used, and there wouldn't be the same issue of a lack of deer repellent available for the contracts where 1080 bids win the tender as the amount of 1080 used would go down. And I would get the opportunity to bid on contracts where I think I can do the


haha. you gotta be kidding Marty Grin Grin

I never said I agree the tendering system is at fault at all.

More spin from you, Marty.


So where does the fault lie then? By your own admission, output contract trappers can do the job in remote areas as you have successfully employed them. So, why did they stop being employed and why does DOC deny that output contractors have been successful in the past? Remember, one of DOC's commonly used statements is "trappers can't do the job in remote areas".

I'm really interested to see the spin you put on Sage's attack on GAC, after all, you have been a great supporter of the way DOC have been treating GAC while others have predicted this attack was always going to happen.

Remember GAC was Peter Dunne's baby when he got elected, with one of his election promises being about too much 1080 being used and the need to use alternatives. GAC goes on and does the job Dunne set GAC up to do, as Associate Minister of Conservation, and Sage attacks GAC for doing it's job as instructed by the Minister of Conservation.

Have a look at my previous post about how DOC uses a pattern against people who dare to question DOC. Sage has not only questioned GAC, as a whole, she has also launched personal attacks against individuals, of the GAC, in a bid to discredit their integrity.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #89 - Aug 15th, 2018 at 8:28am
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So where does the fault lie then? By your own admission, output contract trappers can do the job in remote areas as you have successfully employed them. So, why did they stop being employed and why does DOC deny that output contractors have been successful in the past? Remember, one of DOC's commonly used statements is "trappers can't do the job in remote areas".

I'm really interested to see the spin you put on Sage's attack on GAC, after all, you have been a great supporter of the way DOC have been treating GAC while others have predicted this attack was always going to happen.

Remember GAC was Peter Dunne's baby when he got elected, with one of his election promises being about too much 1080 being used and the need to use alternatives. GAC goes on and does the job Dunne set GAC up to do, as Associate Minister of Conservation, and Sage attacks GAC for doing it's job as instructed by the Minister of Conservation.

Have a look at my previous post about how DOC uses a pattern against people who dare to question DOC. Sage has not only questioned GAC, as a whole, she has also launched personal attacks against individuals, of the GAC, in a bid to discredit their integrity.


Marty, your still at it
I said contract trappers CAN be successful. The "remote " areas were the eastern valleys of the Tararuas, in part up to the bushline and thu the alpine scrub. Contractors were not interested in tendering for the more ruggered stuff further into the range.
Every area is different as you know. Its nonsense to say ground control will always be more cost effective than aerial (or whatever yourve been saying)

As for the GAC
WTF are you on about. I've supported Peter Dunne and the GAC as much as anyone. what fkg planet are you on.
read my comments about Minister sage.

And stop deliberately misinterpreting everything that's said


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #90 - Aug 15th, 2018 at 10:25am
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Quote:
So where does the fault lie then? By your own admission, output contract trappers can do the job in remote areas as you have successfully employed them. So, why did they stop being employed and why does DOC deny that output contractors have been successful in the past? Remember, one of DOC's commonly used statements is "trappers can't do the job in remote areas".

I'm really interested to see the spin you put on Sage's attack on GAC, after all, you have been a great supporter of the way DOC have been treating GAC while others have predicted this attack was always going to happen.

Remember GAC was Peter Dunne's baby when he got elected, with one of his election promises being about too much 1080 being used and the need to use alternatives. GAC goes on and does the job Dunne set GAC up to do, as Associate Minister of Conservation, and Sage attacks GAC for doing it's job as instructed by the Minister of Conservation.

Have a look at my previous post about how DOC uses a pattern against people who dare to question DOC. Sage has not only questioned GAC, as a whole, she has also launched personal attacks against individuals, of the GAC, in a bid to discredit their integrity.


Marty, your still at it
I said contract trappers CAN be successful. The "remote " areas were the eastern valleys of the Tararuas, in part up to the bushline and thu the alpine scrub. Contractors were not interested in tendering for the more ruggered stuff further into the range.
Every area is different as you know. Its nonsense to say ground control will always be more cost effective than aerial (or whatever yourve been saying)

As for the GAC
WTF are you on about. I've supported Peter Dunne and the GAC as much as anyone. what fkg planet are you on.
read my comments about Minister sage.

And stop deliberately misinterpreting everything that's said


I have never said that trappers will be "always" be more cost effective.

What I have said is, if the areas were put up for competitive tender, the tender proposals would decide what areas trappers would be the most cost effective in. You have agreed with me that some areas, currently being done with aerial 1080, could be cost effectively done using trappers.

It doesn't matter how much spin you put on it or how hard you try to twist what I have said, the simple fact is we are in agreement, that trappers can do the job and competitive tendering would quickly help to work out what areas are the most cost effective for trappers to do.

We are not the only ones that have come to the same conclusion, as the DOC Conservancies and even DOC Head Office also agree with us, with the problem being able to implement the DOC SOP planning procedures and getting the Minister of Conservation to withdraw her refusal to allow the Conservancies to follow the SOP planning procedures, that have already been written, approved and signed off on.

The Minister is right when she says that the procedures allow for trappers to be employed, what the Minister doesn't say, is that she refuses to allow DOC to issue competitive tenders, or ask for expressions of interest, that will allow the SOP procedures to work as was intended when they were written.

You will note that the same problems that Conservancies have run into, with regard to competitive tendering, are the same problems that GAC has also run into. The Minister is issuing decrees that stop the SOP procedures being followed and the decrees are also running contrary to the legislation that has already been enacted, just as her latest decrees, about the way GAC is operating, also run counter to GAC original instructions and the legislation that was written specifically for GAC to work under.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #91 - Aug 15th, 2018 at 7:45pm
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This is just a pissing contest marty.

I'm out of it
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #92 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 3:48am
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Seems Marty at this stage has out pissed everyone.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #93 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 8:46am
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EC wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 3:48am:
Seems Marty at this stage has out pissed everyone.


Grin Grin
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #94 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 6:28am
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Yeh. Laff while you can. Marty has on balance helped to adjust the the scales pre-loaded for the poison and anti trapping stooges and expose some sorely needed truths.
A pretty stressful effort for the man; so ease off the yuppyness till he can answer you. Hope he relaxes on his "month off" and comes back all square.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #95 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 7:23pm
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huntnfish wrote on Aug 30th, 2018 at 6:28am:
Yeh. Laff while you can. Marty has on balance helped to adjust the the scales pre-loaded for the poison and anti trapping stooges and expose some sorely needed truths.
A pretty stressful effort for the man; so ease off the yuppyness till he can answer you. Hope he relaxes on his "month off" and comes back all square.


Do you agree with him that none of us should post on here "behind the veneer of a false name", huntnfish?

I don't, leave aside that its against the Forum rules.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #96 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:26pm
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Oscar wrote on Aug 30th, 2018 at 7:23pm:
huntnfish wrote on Aug 30th, 2018 at 6:28am:
Yeh. Laff while you can. Marty has on balance helped to adjust the the scales pre-loaded for the poison and anti trapping stooges and expose some sorely needed truths.
A pretty stressful effort for the man; so ease off the yuppyness till he can answer you. Hope he relaxes on his "month off" and comes back all square.


Do you agree with him that none of us should post on here "behind the veneer of a false name", huntnfish?

I don't, leave aside that its against the Forum rules.


Everyone knows who you really are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_the_Grouch

As an aside. I rang OSPRI yesterday, and they are still there.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #97 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:45pm
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I think the spirit of intent of this type of forum is intended to allow free comment from people of many temperaments, including the shy ones; hence the nicknames. On balance I think each member has a choice.
The issue of politics or similar can lead to interference of several types by business and government and includes some pretty nasty stuff at times. The opposite to this is the reaction from individuals or small groups or small ngo's who do not have the same degree of influence with "the seats of power" or the media which is influenced by advertising revenue and who can feel unfairly ignored, put down, or disadvantaged within debates. Within issues as serious as some discussed on here it is a fact that "the little guys" have to put in a massive amount of time and effort in order to prove their points, usually after months of frustration in trying to extract truths from large gov't dept's or gov't allied NGO's. This effort is generally much larger than the oft glib responses from spin doctors within those gov't departments, or from others who regard such discussions as a sport. I realise there is more to it than this example, but for the "little guy" trying to get views across there is a disproportionate level of effort and stress, which sometimes will create an outburst or other reaction.  Forum members should hesitate to "put the boot in" when this occurs, but it is also true that it is a hard one to judge.
Other issues include the risk some might incur if their personal views are seen to be in some sort of conflict with their employer or even friends; or might compromise some unrelated business negotiation etc. The use of a nickname affords these people a degree of protection and allows opinions to be more freely contributed.
In the end, the old adage "follow the money" generally holds true, therefore there will always be problems of this sort within public forums. At least this one does allow a reasonable compromise, usually, and has not sunk to the level of mob rule extant on FB (which I have never joined), even though some of the info posted on FB and copied to me from time to time does reveal a very significant measure of evolving public opinion on various matters.
The worst thing on these forums are fence sitters whom I consider are treating serious issues as a sporting event. (Does'nt matter in light issues, but it's "horses for courses".
The other aspect, is that within serious issues, people closely involved can, through forums actually have discussions somewhat free of their official contraints, but in this scenario the risks of identification may preclude such productive discussion.
Summing up OSCAR, I don't think there is a  black and white answer to your question. There is no doubt that identities or nicknames count for nothing at gov't / police level because we know for a fact that during the Concord enquiry the police had access to every post along with names,  of every suspect (in their view) from this and other forums. The forum and it's structure, it's moderators etc is what it is, and I have no criticism of the present arrangements because I personally can offer no better solution.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #98 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:54pm
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huntnfish wrote on Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:45pm:
On balance I think each member has a choice.


Exactly. And that's what the Forum Rules say.

Its not for other members to take away that choice.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #99 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:56pm
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As I said.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #100 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:59pm
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Its just a pity Marty disagrees, because I do hope he keeps contributing to the Forum.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #101 - Aug 31st, 2018 at 2:54am
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He just gets a bit carried away due to frustration with officialdom, both past and present, and wears his heart on his sleeve sometimes.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #102 - Aug 31st, 2018 at 5:39am
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huntnfish wrote on Aug 31st, 2018 at 2:54am:
He just gets a bit carried away due to frustration with officialdom, both past and present, and wears his heart on his sleeve sometimes.


There is nothing wrong with that, however facts are the things that win discussions and well presented facts are impossible to dispute.

Like Oscar i wish him a safe return to the Forum.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #103 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:56am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 31st, 2018 at 5:39am:
huntnfish wrote on Aug 31st, 2018 at 2:54am:
He just gets a bit carried away due to frustration with officialdom, both past and present, and wears his heart on his sleeve sometimes.


There is nothing wrong with that, however facts are the things that win discussions and well presented facts are impossible to dispute.

Like Oscar i wish him a safe return to the Forum.


I agree with you salmoner...My frustration is that I have proven the facts with my own actions...Other trappers have done an even better job than I have ever done, proven with GPS real-time trap-line monitoring and every possum capture recorded by GPS in real-time and none of that information is allowed to be released to the NZ Public because OSPRI forced the trappers to sign confidentiality agreements that meant that if the information was made public the trapper could be prosecuted for breach of confidentiality.

A couple of days ago I was talking with an OSPRI trapping contractor who told me that he had caught 12,000 possums in a 2,000ha OSPRI contracted block that had been poisoned for over a decade and OSPRI had claimed that the poison had killed most of the possums. Where did all the possums suddenly come from?

I am allowed to tell you that story as the trapper has given me permission to do so and he knows that OSPRI will be able to work out who the "information leak" is and he doesn't give a damn any more.

You can be rest assured, that more stories, like that, will be coming out and they won't, just be, second hand stories that Marty Foote is passing onto you, they will be coming straight from the horses mouth.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #104 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 8:16pm
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Bloody good Marty. It's way overdue that the truth came out.  Wink
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #105 - Sep 6th, 2018 at 10:00pm
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Its not a truth until its accepted as being true. And that takes veracity. Theses suppositions and anecdotes need to be validated and proven - then they might become plausible and accepted as truth.

At least until we hear the contra argument. And so it will go on.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #106 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 2:00am
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Somewhat agree BC; however :accepted" depends on who one is referring to. Bureaucracies, as an example, will resist change when even truth does not suit them.
Regardless, within this subjects context, many are working very diligently to expose truths as well as lies.
As you say; "it goes on".
But, in saying that, the master of the "half truth" is the most devious and manipulative  of all, and that tactic is common in history.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #107 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 2:13am
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That 'quest for truth' is one of the enjoyable parts of the forum. An argument in the classical sense where its about getting to the facts of a matter, not winning or losing, or about the people. Good fun to disagree, in good faith, not so much to be disagreeable.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #108 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 8:47pm
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huntnfish wrote on Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:45pm:
I think the spirit of intent of this type of forum is intended to allow free comment from people of many temperaments, including the shy ones; hence the nicknames. On balance I think each member has a choice.
The issue of politics or similar can lead to interference of several types by business and government and includes some pretty nasty stuff at times. The opposite to this is the reaction from individuals or small groups or small ngo's who do not have the same degree of influence with "the seats of power" or the media which is influenced by advertising revenue and who can feel unfairly ignored, put down, or disadvantaged within debates. Within issues as serious as some discussed on here it is a fact that "the little guys" have to put in a massive amount of time and effort in order to prove their points, usually after months of frustration in trying to extract truths from large gov't dept's or gov't allied NGO's. This effort is generally much larger than the oft glib responses from spin doctors within those gov't departments, or from others who regard such discussions as a sport. I realise there is more to it than this example, but for the "little guy" trying to get views across there is a disproportionate level of effort and stress, which sometimes will create an outburst or other reaction.  Forum members should hesitate to "put the boot in" when this occurs, but it is also true that it is a hard one to judge.
Other issues include the risk some might incur if their personal views are seen to be in some sort of conflict with their employer or even friends; or might compromise some unrelated business negotiation etc. The use of a nickname affords these people a degree of protection and allows opinions to be more freely contributed.
In the end, the old adage "follow the money" generally holds true, therefore there will always be problems of this sort within public forums. At least this one does allow a reasonable compromise, usually, and has not sunk to the level of mob rule extant on FB (which I have never joined), even though some of the info posted on FB and copied to me from time to time does reveal a very significant measure of evolving public opinion on various matters.
The worst thing on these forums are fence sitters whom I consider are treating serious issues as a sporting event. (Does'nt matter in light issues, but it's "horses for courses".
The other aspect, is that within serious issues, people closely involved can, through forums actually have discussions somewhat free of their official contraints, but in this scenario the risks of identification may preclude such productive discussion.
Summing up OSCAR, I don't think there is a  black and white answer to your question. There is no doubt that identities or nicknames count for nothing at gov't / police level because we know for a fact that during the Concord enquiry the police had access to every post along with names,  of every suspect (in their view) from this and other forums. The forum and it's structure, it's moderators etc is what it is, and I have no criticism of the present arrangements because I personally can offer no better solution.


Another good post. Level and balanced points made.  Smiley

Weve had a lot of flack over the years about over moderation but if I consider two alternatives to this forum, eg Facebook, which has less moderation and more argy bargy, a playground for which we today term ''fake news'' or our esteemed competitors the ''new forum'' which simply bans all political or 1080 discussion, then I must say we sit pretty well in allowing most opinions to stay posted and have a good balance of fair discussion without total banning of hot potato topics.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #109 - Jul 19th, 2019 at 3:36pm
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #110 - Apr 30th, 2020 at 5:18pm
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Has anyone seen the latest BA on the parakeet protection.
2 days ago, during level 3, DOC staff were flown from Chch into the Lake Sumner RHA region to release more parakeets into a intermediary cage in the RHA.

Such hypocrisy. Its not ok for us to go bush. Just in case we get into trouble and need an SAR call-out. But its ok for them to go there, and fly in.  Embarrassed
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #111 - May 1st, 2020 at 3:38pm
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scottrods wrote on Apr 30th, 2020 at 5:18pm:
Has anyone seen the latest BA on the parakeet protection.
2 days ago, during level 3, DOC staff were flown from Chch into the Lake Sumner RHA region to release more parakeets into a intermediary cage in the RHA.

Such hypocrisy. Its not ok for us to go bush. Just in case we get into trouble and need an SAR call-out. But its ok for them to go there, and fly in.  Embarrassed


Got a link ?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #112 - May 2nd, 2020 at 3:31am
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #113 - May 2nd, 2020 at 8:13am
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The press release also says

The young captive-bred kākāriki were due to be released several weeks ago and this has now become more urgent for the welfare of the birds and to free up much-needed space in the aviary.”

Presume these are an endangered species that have been captive raised for release into the wild. Given the circumstances it looks fair enough to me
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #114 - May 3rd, 2020 at 8:20am
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scottrods wrote on Apr 30th, 2020 at 5:18pm:
Has anyone seen the latest BA on the parakeet protection.
2 days ago, during level 3, DOC staff were flown from Chch into the Lake Sumner RHA region to release more parakeets into a intermediary cage in the RHA.

Such hypocrisy. Its not ok for us to go bush. Just in case we get into trouble and need an SAR call-out. But its ok for them to go there, and fly in.  Embarrassed


If David Clark the Health Minister was in charge of the operation i could understand your concern, he wasnt...

"Following strict covid 19 protocols" is what the article said .
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #115 - May 3rd, 2020 at 12:15pm
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huntnfish wrote on Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:45pm:
I think the spirit of intent of this type of forum is intended to allow free comment from people of many temperaments, including the shy ones; hence the nicknames. On balance I think each member has a choice.
The issue of politics or similar can lead to interference of several types by business and government and includes some pretty nasty stuff at times. The opposite to this is the reaction from individuals or small groups or small ngo's who do not have the same degree of influence with "the seats of power" or the media which is influenced by advertising revenue and who can feel unfairly ignored, put down, or disadvantaged within debates. Within issues as serious as some discussed on here it is a fact that "the little guys" have to put in a massive amount of time and effort in order to prove their points, usually after months of frustration in trying to extract truths from large gov't dept's or gov't allied NGO's. This effort is generally much larger than the oft glib responses from spin doctors within those gov't departments, or from others who regard such discussions as a sport. I realise there is more to it than this example, but for the "little guy" trying to get views across there is a disproportionate level of effort and stress, which sometimes will create an outburst or other reaction.  Forum members should hesitate to "put the boot in" when this occurs, but it is also true that it is a hard one to judge.
Other issues include the risk some might incur if their personal views are seen to be in some sort of conflict with their employer or even friends; or might compromise some unrelated business negotiation etc. The use of a nickname affords these people a degree of protection and allows opinions to be more freely contributed.
In the end, the old adage "follow the money" generally holds true, therefore there will always be problems of this sort within public forums. At least this one does allow a reasonable compromise, usually, and has not sunk to the level of mob rule extant on FB (which I have never joined), even though some of the info posted on FB and copied to me from time to time does reveal a very significant measure of evolving public opinion on various matters.
The worst thing on these forums are fence sitters whom I consider are treating serious issues as a sporting event. (Does'nt matter in light issues, but it's "horses for courses".
The other aspect, is that within serious issues, people closely involved can, through forums actually have discussions somewhat free of their official contraints, but in this scenario the risks of identification may preclude such productive discussion.
Summing up OSCAR, I don't think there is a  black and white answer to your question. There is no doubt that identities or nicknames count for nothing at gov't / police level because we know for a fact that during the Concord enquiry the police had access to every post along with names,  of every suspect (in their view) from this and other forums. The forum and it's structure, it's moderators etc is what it is, and I have no criticism of the present arrangements because I personally can offer no better solution.

That was well done - I like that a lot  Smiley


  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #116 - May 3rd, 2020 at 2:36pm
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Wow, doesn't seem like nearly two years since that interesting discussion. Time flies.
  

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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #117 - May 3rd, 2020 at 3:39pm
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Ha, ha, so it was - he was only 72 when he wrote that - which means that post has stood the 'test of time', could have been written yesterday ....... like I thought it was.

I used to see those kakariki when I hunted rabbits along the edge of the Ruahine's, would see flocks of them - the only place I ever saw them.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #118 - May 3rd, 2020 at 3:43pm
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headcase wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 8:47pm:
huntnfish wrote on Aug 30th, 2018 at 9:45pm:
I think the spirit of intent of this type of forum is intended to allow free comment from people of many temperaments, including the shy ones; hence the nicknames. On balance I think each member has a choice.
The issue of politics or similar can lead to interference of several types by business and government and includes some pretty nasty stuff at times. The opposite to this is the reaction from individuals or small groups or small ngo's who do not have the same degree of influence with "the seats of power" or the media which is influenced by advertising revenue and who can feel unfairly ignored, put down, or disadvantaged within debates. Within issues as serious as some discussed on here it is a fact that "the little guys" have to put in a massive amount of time and effort in order to prove their points, usually after months of frustration in trying to extract truths from large gov't dept's or gov't allied NGO's. This effort is generally much larger than the oft glib responses from spin doctors within those gov't departments, or from others who regard such discussions as a sport. I realise there is more to it than this example, but for the "little guy" trying to get views across there is a disproportionate level of effort and stress, which sometimes will create an outburst or other reaction.  Forum members should hesitate to "put the boot in" when this occurs, but it is also true that it is a hard one to judge.
Other issues include the risk some might incur if their personal views are seen to be in some sort of conflict with their employer or even friends; or might compromise some unrelated business negotiation etc. The use of a nickname affords these people a degree of protection and allows opinions to be more freely contributed.
In the end, the old adage "follow the money" generally holds true, therefore there will always be problems of this sort within public forums. At least this one does allow a reasonable compromise, usually, and has not sunk to the level of mob rule extant on FB (which I have never joined), even though some of the info posted on FB and copied to me from time to time does reveal a very significant measure of evolving public opinion on various matters.
The worst thing on these forums are fence sitters whom I consider are treating serious issues as a sporting event. (Does'nt matter in light issues, but it's "horses for courses".
The other aspect, is that within serious issues, people closely involved can, through forums actually have discussions somewhat free of their official contraints, but in this scenario the risks of identification may preclude such productive discussion.
Summing up OSCAR, I don't think there is a  black and white answer to your question. There is no doubt that identities or nicknames count for nothing at gov't / police level because we know for a fact that during the Concord enquiry the police had access to every post along with names,  of every suspect (in their view) from this and other forums. The forum and it's structure, it's moderators etc is what it is, and I have no criticism of the present arrangements because I personally can offer no better solution.


Another good post. Level and balanced points made.  Smiley

Weve had a lot of flack over the years about over moderation but if I consider two alternatives to this forum, eg Facebook, which has less moderation and more argy bargy, a playground for which we today term ''fake news'' or our esteemed competitors the ''new forum'' which simply bans all political or 1080 discussion, then I must say we sit pretty well in allowing most opinions to stay posted and have a good balance of fair discussion without total banning of hot potato topics.

ummmmm the other pub has been as political as the beehive for months n months....it started with firearms changes allowed to be discussed and has continued... religeon is still a nono unless of course you are taking the piss out of Christianity   which it appears is ok.....
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #119 - May 3rd, 2020 at 3:47pm
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years back a local chap bred up heaps of the parakeets,but as they had a little of the yellow fronted in them....or maybe red????he wasnt allowed to release them....they looked the same as the native ones I sae in greenstone so couldnt see issue...maybe he didnt have mates in the burocracy dept......
  
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