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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Orange Fronted Kakariki (Read 5937 times)
sidney
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #75 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 3:21pm
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So given everyone else has some sort of financial incentive which doesn't allow them to formulate arguments that stand on their own merit - what is your excuse Marty? - are u trying to benefit commercially from alternative pest management strategy?

Or are you simply OCD afflicted with some sort of irrational mental issue?

You need to grow up...  arguments stand on their own merit, irrespective of the background of the contributor.

Your obsessive need to seek to discredit argument by challenging credibility of people is pathetic.

Again as has been pointed out many times...  you are a liability to the issue because of the approach that you take.

Its tedious..
  

"But thus I counsel you, my friends: Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful. They are people of a low sort and stock; the hangmen and the bloodhound look out of their faces. Mistrust all who talk much of their justice!"  Nietzsche
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #76 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 4:00pm
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Marty,

How long is your rat trap line in km and how long will it take you to get around the entire length of it in days ?

Pretty simple really.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #77 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 5:30pm
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You might also be interested in the fact that there were 3,643 rats caught in that Otamatuna rat trapping operation. 2, 015 of which were caught in the boundary traps, leaving 1,628 caught in the internally set traps. This gives an internal catch rate of around 2 rats/ha and a total catch rate of 4.3 rats/ha if the boundary traps are included. These are the results of 12 months of trapping.

With these sorts of rat capture rates you can see why the Victor traps are being seen as more a cost effective investment than Good Nature traps.

These rat numbers are not the plague numbers being quoted by DOC and these lower rat populations are common over much of NZ's native forest. DOC is claiming possum numbers often exceed 10 possums/ha and yet for the rat population, at Otamatuna, to exceed 10 rats/ha the trapping can only be killing less than half of the rats, which doesn't make any sense as with such a low percentage kill there would not be the biodiversity benefits, that are occurring, and the traps would be overrun by the breeding capacity of the surviving rat population.

If we look at the boundary traps set at 25m apart this would give a trap-line of 25km for 1,000 traps. If the average walking speed is 4km/hr then it would take 6-7 hours to walk around the traps, let's triple it, to take into account travel to the trap-line and time taken clearing traps, and say 20 hours or 50 traps per hour. The traps were being cleared every 5 weeks and it was found that the boundary traps needed to be cleared more often (3-4 weeks) and the internal traps could be left longer than the boundary traps. Let's use a clearance rate of 12 times/year and divide 50 by 12 to give a rate of around 4 traps cleared/hr over the whole year.

The traps were placed at a rate of 1.2 traps/ha giving an effective rate of rat control of 3.33ha/hour or one hectare costs 18 minutes of time. If a trapper was working 2,000hrs/yr the total number of hectares would be in excess of 6,000ha. Output contractors, who are paid on a per hectare basis, have an incentive to travel faster than a wage worker. There was one young super-fit possum trapper, I was told about, that ran around his traps and was covering twice the area that some other trappers were covering.

This is what has been accomplished and the system can be made even more efficient, per hectare, by increasing the block size and ensuring there are a greater percentage of internal traps and a lower percentage of boundary traps. This operation was largely done on a "prescriptive input formula" model as some of the traps were cleared using volunteer labour and wage workers were employed. If output contractors were employed the work could become even more efficient as the output possum contracting results has already proved.

Add in the possum control where the possum kill traps will be checked at the same time as the rat control, take into account that stoats and cats would be controlled, at very little extra cost, while the rat traps are being cleared and wasps can be controlled at the time they are feeding on protein rich foods.

Does the use contract trappers not make sense when the facts are analysed?

Where am I going wrong, in my calculations, to be so publicly ridiculed by people that would appear to be normal and sane at most other activities they undertake?

If you were an aerial 1080 application contractor or an office based manager whose work involves planning aerial 1080 operations, would you be worried about your future employment if these sorts of competing costing results were made available to the NZ Public?

What would the NZ Public think if DOC did do a real cost/benefit analysis, that covered all the details instead just the positives of 1080 and the negatives of trapping? If all the positives and negatives, of both control methods, were analysed honestly we wouldn't be having this conversation and the best, most cost effective method of wild animal control would be being used.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #78 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:36pm
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another question for you marty, just outve curiosity what happens if you were to get a long term contract would you not get bored/sick of it walking the same lines over and over years on end?  and dont say an employ someone as you stated yourself in above post wage workers go slow and no incentive,  or would you sub contract and let your contract fate rely on someone else?

My personal opinion is while you have a good theory and principal idea you have bad tunnel vision and/or stubborness and the fact you dont want to listen or take into account the slightest bit of advice or other ideas is letting you down greatly, perhaps why doc wont give you a go at it no roon to negotiate?
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #79 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:01pm
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YOUR reply 66 said, 5100 traps, 55% set on the perimeter the balance set inside. Then we get the maths done it is now a 1000 traps on the perimeter. I guess that is to make the figures fit ?  Cheesy.

Please present credible figures in any future discussion.

Out.







  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #80 - Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:38pm
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TH was a NZFS and DOC manager before he retired. TH was paid to promote the use of 1080 and any other policies that his employer decided was relevant for DOC to promote. TH has continued with his pro-DOC line after he retired.


Marty Foote. The only contributor to these threads that has a vested interest in promoting one method of pest control over another, is yourself.

You only come onto this forum† to only spread your conspiracy theories, claim secret meetings and information , put your spin on anything to promote your own commercial interests. You contribute nothing to hunting, or have ever posted hunting reports. This forum is your soap box

you are incapable of understanding what is being said† in response to your claims, and can only see it as being some pest control agency backed plot

I have sympathy with the trapping industry , in not getting the recognition due in potentially doing more pest control.

But whenever your have your soapbox rants, slagging everyone you perceive at being apposed to you and the trapping industry, you are showing your ignorance and as yourve been told, its pathetic.

You are not achieving anything, other than being patted on the back by a few who believe your spin.

Its little wonder that government pest control agencies etc donít want to know you. You cant show any achievements in how pest control might be done, and pissed everyone off. Its probably what pushes your buttons, but it destructive to the industry you claim to be promoting.

By using this forum as† a soapbox for your ranting, you discredit hunters. Just as the loonies on the facebook pages have done.

The fact that you have to resort to discrediting forum members that might not agree with you, simply shows that you donít have the ability to debate logically so you continually resort to your pathetic personal attacks.

If ever there was a reason to not post on this forum, or even go and find another one, your it
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #81 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 12:30am
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gonehuntin wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 8:36pm:
another question for you marty, just outve curiosity what happens if you were to get a long term contract would you not get bored/sick of it walking the same lines over and over years on end?† and dont say an employ someone as you stated yourself in above post wage workers go slow and no incentive,† or would you sub contract and let your contract fate rely on someone else?

My personal opinion is while you have a good theory and principal idea you have bad tunnel vision and/or stubborness and the fact you dont want to listen or take into account the slightest bit of advice or other ideas is letting you down greatly, perhaps why doc wont give you a go at it no roon to negotiate?


I'll take you back to the days when output contracts were the norm.

Trappers worked in small groups of 5-6 and there was normally a principle contractor who negotiated and signed the contract who took a cut for taking on this role with the rest of the money being paid out on a per hectare basis.

Input contracts started to be used more often with OSPRI taking the lead from 1990 on and supporting people who would use poison and discriminating against the guys using traps. In the 2010 cost review OSPRI even stated that they got it wrong and had needlessly forced good trappers out of the industry, however, even with the this admission OSPRI continued with the same practices that they admitted had been to the detriment of the contract trapping industry.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #82 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 12:44am
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Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
YOUR reply 66 said, 5100 traps, 55% set on the perimeter the balance set inside. Then we get the maths done it is now a 1000 traps on the perimeter. I guess that is to make the figures fit ?† Cheesy.

Please present credible figures in any future discussion.

Out.


I don't understand what you are on about. I took a nice round figure of 1,000 traps gave the length of trap-line, at 25m spacing, and then extrapolated a reasonable time frame for clearing the traps.

To my knowledge, there has been no reports written that go into the detail that you are demanding.

Now that I have provided evidence, from a successful rat control operation, I think it might be a good idea for you to provide the same sort of data from your own rat control operations, including things like the size of the block, number of traps, numbers of rats caught, time spent clearing the traps, etc. I would be really interested in these sorts of figures, particularly, as you seem to have been claiming that the sort of operation, that did take place and has been documented in reports written by DOC, would be impossible for you to achieve.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #83 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:46am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:38pm:
Quote:
TH was a NZFS and DOC manager before he retired. TH was paid to promote the use of 1080 and any other policies that his employer decided was relevant for DOC to promote. TH has continued with his pro-DOC line after he retired.


Marty Foote. The only contributor to these threads that has a vested interest in promoting one method of pest control over another, is yourself.

You only come onto this forum† to only spread your conspiracy theories, claim secret meetings and information , put your spin on anything to promote your own commercial interests. You contribute nothing to hunting, or have ever posted hunting reports. This forum is your soap box

you are incapable of understanding what is being said† in response to your claims, and can only see it as being some pest control agency backed plot

I have sympathy with the trapping industry , in not getting the recognition due in potentially doing more pest control.

But whenever your have your soapbox rants, slagging everyone you perceive at being apposed to you and the trapping industry, you are showing your ignorance and as yourve been told, its pathetic.

You are not achieving anything, other than being patted on the back by a few who believe your spin.

Its little wonder that government pest control agencies etc donít want to know you. You cant show any achievements in how pest control might be done, and pissed everyone off. Its probably what pushes your buttons, but it destructive to the industry you claim to be promoting.

By using this forum as† a soapbox for your ranting, you discredit hunters. Just as the loonies on the facebook pages have done.

The fact that you have to resort to discrediting forum members that might not agree with you, simply shows that you donít have the ability to debate logically so you continually resort to your pathetic personal attacks.

If ever there was a reason to not post on this forum, or even go and find another one, your it


You and I have always been on opposite sides of the debate, with you being paid to promote aerial 1080 in your role as a DOC manager and me being a trapper that was excluded from doing the work I had proved I could do.

This is not a conspiracy theory, it is a statement of fact. OSPRI even admitted, in the 2010 cost review, that the type of contract tendering, done in the 1990's and which you played a part in promoting, was a mistake with good trappers being driven out of the wild animal control industry.

You've been retired for, what is it?, 12 years now and, presumably, from the way you talk, you seem to have an inside line on what is happening, except that what you say doesn't always tie in with the discussions that I am having with DOC. Yes, DOC is a very reluctant participant in the talks, however, the talks are moving ahead, and this forum is one of the few outlets where all points of view can be presented, without censorship, and is being monitored, by DOC, OSPRI and MPI for the reason that they think the points being made are important enough for them to know what is being publicly said.

When you promote your points of view, which does include personal ridicule of people who believe differently to you, it is the honest expression of your beliefs, when someone, who you don't agree with, does the same, you label them as soap-box orators and conspiracy theorists.

I have backed my statements with evidence, often provided with DOC created data and reports, which you used to demand so strongly when I was having trouble getting copies of the reports, and when I do eventually provide the information you totally ignore the evidence and start making personal attacks on me.

Why don't you go back, look at the information provided and focus your comments on the factual information.

There is a very clear pattern of behaviour with DOC and OSPRI using this pattern with people that have opposing views, the pattern goes something like this:

1) The opposing views are ignored.
2) The opposing views are challenged.
3) Where the views cannot be refuted the promoter of the views is ridiculed and attacked using any related or unrelated information.
4) If, after the ridiculing phase, the opposing person is still around some dialogue is entered into.

I have managed to get through to step 4 and DOC doesn't use the third step anymore, although many of DOC's promotional arms do still continue with the personal attacks.

The only reason why I seem to be the only one is because many of the people involved, and who are feeding me information, cannot openly express their views for fear of punishment in the form of no more contracts or dismissal from their jobs. Before you cry "conspiracy", look back on your days as a DOC manager and ask yourself what happened to any DOC employees who publicly expressed an opinion that was different from the DOC policy of the time.

With regards to your comments about not being able to show any credible examples of effective animal control, I was a successful contract trapper before I started making public statements about the fact that trappers were more effective than 1080, at which point I was unable to sign anymore contracts. There have been many good trappers that have been treated this way and they have all been unable to sign contracts after making public statements that is critical of 1080.

DOC and OSPRI have signed and paid out on many successful wild animal trapping contracts. This is a fact and just because DOC refuses to publicly acknowledge this fact, in any meaningful way, doesn't make the fact any less true.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #84 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 10:57am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 12:44am:
Salmoner wrote on Aug 12th, 2018 at 9:01pm:
YOUR reply 66 said, 5100 traps, 55% set on the perimeter the balance set inside. Then we get the maths done it is now a 1000 traps on the perimeter. I guess that is to make the figures fit ?† Cheesy.

Please present credible figures in any future discussion.

Out.


I don't understand what you are on about. I took a nice round figure of 1,000 traps gave the length of trap-line, at 25m spacing, and then extrapolated a reasonable time frame for clearing the traps.

To my knowledge, there has been no reports written that go into the detail that you are demanding.

Now that I have provided evidence, from a successful rat control operation, I think it might be a good idea for you to provide the same sort of data from your own rat control operations, including things like the size of the block, number of traps, numbers of rats caught, time spent clearing the traps, etc. I would be really interested in these sorts of figures, particularly, as you seem to have been claiming that the sort of operation, that did take place and has been documented in reports written by DOC, would be impossible for you to achieve.


Don't worry about replying Salmoner. I have got a pretty good handle on the trapping work you are doing by reading some of your other posts.

Not quite the same sort of control as is being done elsewhere, however, I guess that every dead stoat and rat is a good thing.

I was surprised to read your praise of the Victor rat traps and how effective they are, considering your rejection of them on this thread.

With regard to the cat you are trying to catch, one of the most effective cat traps is a leg-hold.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #85 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 7:31pm
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With regards to your comments about not being able to show any credible examples of effective animal control, I was a successful contract trapper before I started making public statements about the fact that trappers were more effective than 1080, at which point I was unable to sign anymore contracts. There have been many good trappers that have been treated this way and they have all been unable to sign contracts after making public statements that is critical of 1080.

DOC and OSPRI have signed and paid out on many successful wild animal trapping contracts. This is a fact and just because DOC refuses to publicly acknowledge this fact, in any meaningful way, doesn't make the fact any less true.

Dunno what your on about, Marty. I have tendered performance based ground control in remote areas and contracts have been mostly successful. That's never been in question. That doesn't mean that ground control will be competitive/successful everywhere. just as aerial poisoning may not be.

Sidney puts the issue of your style, much better than could
Quote:
So given everyone else has some sort of financial incentive which doesn't allow them to formulate arguments that stand on their own merit - what is your excuse Marty? - are u trying to benefit commercially from alternative pest management strategy?
Or are you simply OCD afflicted with some sort of irrational mental issue?
You need to grow up...  arguments stand on their own merit, irrespective of the background of the contributor.
Your obsessive need to seek to discredit argument by challenging credibility of people is pathetic.

Again as has been pointed out many times...  you are a liability to the issue because of the approach that you take.
Its tedious..

\
what isn't that about that, you don't comprehend Marty??

Threads  always end up with the same
Its not only tedious. It pointless trying to discuss anything

I'll have to learn to stop posting in your threads. Same as others





  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #86 - Aug 13th, 2018 at 8:17pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 7:31pm:
Quote:
With regards to your comments about not being able to show any credible examples of effective animal control, I was a successful contract trapper before I started making public statements about the fact that trappers were more effective than 1080, at which point I was unable to sign anymore contracts. There have been many good trappers that have been treated this way and they have all been unable to sign contracts after making public statements that is critical of 1080.

DOC and OSPRI have signed and paid out on many successful wild animal trapping contracts. This is a fact and just because DOC refuses to publicly acknowledge this fact, in any meaningful way, doesn't make the fact any less true.

Dunno what your on about, Marty. I have tendered performance based ground control in remote areas and contracts have been mostly successful. That's never been in question. That doesn't mean that ground control will be competitive/successful everywhere. just as aerial poisoning may not be.

Sidney puts the issue of your style, much better than could
Quote:
So given everyone else has some sort of financial incentive which doesn't allow them to formulate arguments that stand on their own merit - what is your excuse Marty? - are u trying to benefit commercially from alternative pest management strategy?
Or are you simply OCD afflicted with some sort of irrational mental issue?
You need to grow up...† arguments stand on their own merit, irrespective of the background of the contributor.
Your obsessive need to seek to discredit argument by challenging credibility of people is pathetic.

Again as has been pointed out many times...† you are a liability to the issue because of the approach that you take.
Its tedious..

\
what isn't that about that, you don't comprehend Marty??

Threads† always end up with the same
Its not only tedious. It pointless trying to discuss anything

I'll have to learn to stop posting in your threads. Same as others


You are absolutely, 100% right. We are in total agreement with regards to the tendering of contracts.

If the contracts were competitively tendered and paid out on the output performance results required, we would end up with the best, most cost effective methods being used.

The trouble is, none of the contracts are competitively tendered, between competing methods, as DOC and OSPRI make the decision on the method and then ask for tenders, with most of the ground contracts and all of the aerial contracts, being tendered as input contracts where the contractor is paid on work completed, regardless of the output results.

If we are in agreement, that the tendering system is at fault, then let's work together to change the way the tenders are conducted. We would achieve the results we both want.

You would get effective possum and rat control, with no deer deaths where trappers are used, and there wouldn't be the same issue of a lack of deer repellent available for the contracts where 1080 bids win the tender as the amount of 1080 used would go down. And I would get the opportunity to bid on contracts where I think I can do the job.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #87 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 5:38pm
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You are absolutely, 100% right. We are in total agreement with regards to the tendering of contracts.

If the contracts were competitively tendered and paid out on the output performance results required, we would end up with the best, most cost effective methods being used.

The trouble is, none of the contracts are competitively tendered, between competing methods, as DOC and OSPRI make the decision on the method and then ask for tenders, with most of the ground contracts and all of the aerial contracts, being tendered as input contracts where the contractor is paid on work completed, regardless of the output results.

If we are in agreement, that the tendering system is at fault, then let's work together to change the way the tenders are conducted. We would achieve the results we both want.

You would get effective possum and rat control, with no deer deaths where trappers are used, and there wouldn't be the same issue of a lack of deer repellent available for the contracts where 1080 bids win the tender as the amount of 1080 used would go down. And I would get the opportunity to bid on contracts where I think I can do the


haha. you gotta be kidding Marty Grin Grin

I never said I agree the tendering system is at fault at all.

More spin from you, Marty.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #88 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 6:15pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 5:38pm:
Quote:
You are absolutely, 100% right. We are in total agreement with regards to the tendering of contracts.

If the contracts were competitively tendered and paid out on the output performance results required, we would end up with the best, most cost effective methods being used.

The trouble is, none of the contracts are competitively tendered, between competing methods, as DOC and OSPRI make the decision on the method and then ask for tenders, with most of the ground contracts and all of the aerial contracts, being tendered as input contracts where the contractor is paid on work completed, regardless of the output results.

If we are in agreement, that the tendering system is at fault, then let's work together to change the way the tenders are conducted. We would achieve the results we both want.

You would get effective possum and rat control, with no deer deaths where trappers are used, and there wouldn't be the same issue of a lack of deer repellent available for the contracts where 1080 bids win the tender as the amount of 1080 used would go down. And I would get the opportunity to bid on contracts where I think I can do the


haha. you gotta be kidding Marty Grin Grin

I never said I agree the tendering system is at fault at all.

More spin from you, Marty.


So where does the fault lie then? By your own admission, output contract trappers can do the job in remote areas as you have successfully employed them. So, why did they stop being employed and why does DOC deny that output contractors have been successful in the past? Remember, one of DOC's commonly used statements is "trappers can't do the job in remote areas".

I'm really interested to see the spin you put on Sage's attack on GAC, after all, you have been a great supporter of the way DOC have been treating GAC while others have predicted this attack was always going to happen.

Remember GAC was Peter Dunne's baby when he got elected, with one of his election promises being about too much 1080 being used and the need to use alternatives. GAC goes on and does the job Dunne set GAC up to do, as Associate Minister of Conservation, and Sage attacks GAC for doing it's job as instructed by the Minister of Conservation.

Have a look at my previous post about how DOC uses a pattern against people who dare to question DOC. Sage has not only questioned GAC, as a whole, she has also launched personal attacks against individuals, of the GAC, in a bid to discredit their integrity.
  
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Re: Orange Fronted Kakariki
Reply #89 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 8:28pm
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So where does the fault lie then? By your own admission, output contract trappers can do the job in remote areas as you have successfully employed them. So, why did they stop being employed and why does DOC deny that output contractors have been successful in the past? Remember, one of DOC's commonly used statements is "trappers can't do the job in remote areas".

I'm really interested to see the spin you put on Sage's attack on GAC, after all, you have been a great supporter of the way DOC have been treating GAC while others have predicted this attack was always going to happen.

Remember GAC was Peter Dunne's baby when he got elected, with one of his election promises being about too much 1080 being used and the need to use alternatives. GAC goes on and does the job Dunne set GAC up to do, as Associate Minister of Conservation, and Sage attacks GAC for doing it's job as instructed by the Minister of Conservation.

Have a look at my previous post about how DOC uses a pattern against people who dare to question DOC. Sage has not only questioned GAC, as a whole, she has also launched personal attacks against individuals, of the GAC, in a bid to discredit their integrity.


Marty, your still at it
I said contract trappers CAN be successful. The "remote " areas were the eastern valleys of the Tararuas, in part up to the bushline and thu the alpine scrub. Contractors were not interested in tendering for the more ruggered stuff further into the range.
Every area is different as you know. Its nonsense to say ground control will always be more cost effective than aerial (or whatever yourve been saying)

As for the GAC
WTF are you on about. I've supported Peter Dunne and the GAC as much as anyone. what fkg planet are you on.
read my comments about Minister sage.

And stop deliberately misinterpreting everything that's said


  
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