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Marty Foote
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #15 - Jun 12th, 2018 at 11:04pm
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Salmoner wrote on Jun 12th, 2018 at 6:22pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Jun 8th, 2018 at 10:12pm:
Raukumara wanderer wrote on Jun 8th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
Supporters of 1080 state  that through secondary poisoning 1080 can contol rats and stoats as well as possums so is very effective.
Marty you mention ground control will manage rats stoats cats and even wasps to low levels.
How so?


There are already effective rat trapping operations going on. The longest rat trapping operational area is in the Urewera where the ground work has been successful for 20 years. There are other areas, including the self'setting trap trials, that have achieved 0% rat tunnel index monitoring.

Stoat trapping has been successful, even though the trapping has been done using volunteers and the cumbersome commercial wooden box sets. Stoat trapping will be more effective when contract trappers are used with the trappers creating their own trap-sets from natural materials, which will catch the stoats that will not enter the unnatural box trap-sets. Using natural sets is common overseas where it has been accepted as being better than commercially made sets.

Cats are easy to trap with leg-holds and can be effectively controlled at the same time as possum control. Kill traps can be set for cats where possums are not being controlled with leg-holds.

The new wasp bait is proving to be very effective and trappers can set up the bait stations as they go about their wild animal control work.


Got a link to show that stoats will not enter an "unnatural trap box" ? Genuinely interested as we run traplines in the high country for crested grebes protection. In my limited experience having caught a few big adult stoats [experienced animals i would guess ]  in my own made doc150 boxes that have only just been made and still have a bit of a smell of tanilized wood they are a bit better than ok catchers ?
Very first trap i made [doc 200] on the very first night i set it i caught a big adult ferret.

Also would like to see  examples of natural sets. Are these natural sets used overseas suitable for areas with kea and ground dwelling birds such as weka ? What type of trap, Fenns ? I know that DoC are now using modified traps to stop kea playing with and triggering traps. If they can rip screws out of wood my guess is that any trap that is made of natural materials would be ripped apart fairly quickly ?

https://www.doc.govt.nz/news/media-releases/2016/doc-kea-proofs-stoat-traps-in-f...




The information about natural sets came from searching the internet. There were a number of posts that said that trappers, employed on game preserves as well as fur hunters, would only use natural sets for mustelids. The only artificial set some trappers are using is clay tiles, which are pretty close to natural, in that they are nothing more than fired clay.

DOC has accepted that there are stoats that will not enter the wooden boxes. Their solution is to work at finding a more attractive lure. This will not work if the problem is the box sets themselves.

All we know is that there is an unknown percentage of the stoat population that will not enter the wooden boxes. If this percentage is very low, say <1%, it probably doesn't matter, however, if the percentage is higher, say 10-20% (the known figure for bait-averse possums) then there is a real problem. The other negatives, with the wooden boxes, is they are expensive to buy and are very time consuming to pack into the bush and then move around.

I also believe that it is not most of the stoats and cats that are causing the damage to the birds, with most feeding on rodents and insects. I believe it is a few very efficient hunters that are killing the larger ground birds. When I started bleeding possums at the trap site my cat catch went up and there were a very small percentage of very large tom-cats caught, I reckon it is these larger individuals that are hunting the larger ground birds. I'd hazard a guess that it will be the same with stoats and these individual stoats will be very canny and wary of anything new, hence the reason why they have lived long enough to grow big and strong enough to take on an adult kiwi.

There was work done in the 1980's on deterring kiwi from getting caught in leg-holds. They isolated a number lures that attracted kiwis and if the traps were not lured with kiwi attractive scents, not set on runs and the traps were set at the base of trees and hazed with rocks or sticks, it was found that the Kiwi would walk around the trap. DOC adopted the raised set policy and refused to allow trappers to use the hazing technique that had been proven to work.

I am a North Island trapper so I haven't experienced weka and kea, however, there are some considerations here:

1) Sets made from natural materials should be less attractive to weka and kea as there is no visual curiosity factor;

2) In the bush there are plenty of materials (large branches, fallen punga logs, etc) available to make tunnel sets long and robust enough to ensure that ground birds are unable to access the traps.

Some thinking would need to be done in high alpine areas, perhaps some trenches cut and covered with sticks and topped off with the earth removed. These sorts of sets are common overseas.

3) 1080 is already killing kiwi, weka and kea, so the alternative solution doesn't have to be 100% fool proof so long as any damage is kept to the minimum.

4) In some whio areas the weka are as much of a problem as stoats with 1080 being used to kill the weka where stoat trapping has not stopped the whio nests being predated.

  
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Salmoner
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #16 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 8:06am
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I got a feeling that there is a bit of a difference between where you trap and kea/weka areas esp the kea.

I also wonder from previous posts if you have experienced mast years that we get down here as i feel trapping wouldnt even go half way to controlling rat and mice populations and then the follow on stoat numbers.

Your posts are thought provoking however and that is good.  Smiley

  
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #17 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:32am
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Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 8:06am:
I got a feeling that there is a bit of a difference between where you trap and kea/weka areas esp the kea.

I also wonder from previous posts if you have experienced mast years that we get down here as i feel trapping wouldnt even go half way to controlling rat and mice populations and then the follow on stoat numbers.

Your posts are thought provoking however and that is good.  Smiley



The really big masts only happen in Red Beech. The other beeches do have large masts, however, they are not as big. All mixed forest types do not have really big mast years as the different trees mast on different years, which means there is some fluctuation in rat numbers, however, they never reach plague proportions like the Red Beech.

The work Graham Elliot has done shows that there is a big Red Beech mast every 4-7 years and the rats only reach plague proportions every 3-4 large masts, which puts the really damaging rat plagues at once every 20-25 years.

Rats have been trapped effectively, in Fiordland in DOC trapping trials, during what DOC has described as a mast year.
  
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #18 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:00am
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For how many hundreds of years has the so called Beech mast been a problem,,I mean it aint just started in the last few years now,has it?
Nature takes care of it's self and has done since the beginning, cant get my head around this pest fad,,apart from job justification.

I mean at the end of the day shouldn't us humans and birds not be long gone from billions of rats etc?
  

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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #19 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:54am
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EC nature aint taking care of any birds in a mast year and is struggling in an average year with 80% of our native birds threatened. There is shit loads of info showing birds can be helped.

Read what happened to the Mohua in a mast year..

https://predatorfreenz.org/whats-the-story-about-mohua-2/
  
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #20 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 3:16pm
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Native bird numbers double during 20-year Department of Conservation pest control study

Quote:
"Mohua is one of the most threatened birds there and has increased 24-fold over the time of the study — going from 14 to 338 birds in the monitoring area," Conservation Eugenie Sage said.

"These results highlight that where we control pests over whole valleys and forests, we can turn around the fortunes of our native birds and help address our biodiversity crisis where 82 per cent of our birds are threatened or at risk of extinction."

Sage said new funding for DoC of $181.6 million over four years would allow more of the work to happen.

  

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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #21 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 5:14pm
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Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 11:54am:
EC nature aint taking care of any birds in a mast year.


In that case there shouldn't be any left full stop,,the mast thing has been goin on for centuries .
I have never in my life seen such a lack of bird life after these poison drops,,know who the rats are.

  

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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #22 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 6:27pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:32am:
Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 8:06am:
I got a feeling that there is a bit of a difference between where you trap and kea/weka areas esp the kea.

I also wonder from previous posts if you have experienced mast years that we get down here as i feel trapping wouldnt even go half way to controlling rat and mice populations and then the follow on stoat numbers.

Your posts are thought provoking however and that is good.  Smiley



The really big masts only happen in Red Beech. The other beeches do have large masts, however, they are not as big. All mixed forest types do not have really big mast years as the different trees mast on different years, which means there is some fluctuation in rat numbers, however, they never reach plague proportions like the Red Beech.

The work Graham Elliot has done shows that there is a big Red Beech mast every 4-7 years and the rats only reach plague proportions every 3-4 large masts, which puts the really damaging rat plagues at once every 20-25 years.

Rats have been trapped effectively, in Fiordland in DOC trapping trials, during what DOC has described as a mast year.


Can be a big mast year every 4 years and if there is a big rat increase every third mast it could 12 years rats get out of control ? or is my maths crap ?

Good to see you have faith in DoC researchers and scientists  Wink


  
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #23 - Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:08pm
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Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 6:27pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:32am:
Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 8:06am:
I got a feeling that there is a bit of a difference between where you trap and kea/weka areas esp the kea.

I also wonder from previous posts if you have experienced mast years that we get down here as i feel trapping wouldnt even go half way to controlling rat and mice populations and then the follow on stoat numbers.

Your posts are thought provoking however and that is good.  Smiley



The really big masts only happen in Red Beech. The other beeches do have large masts, however, they are not as big. All mixed forest types do not have really big mast years as the different trees mast on different years, which means there is some fluctuation in rat numbers, however, they never reach plague proportions like the Red Beech.

The work Graham Elliot has done shows that there is a big Red Beech mast every 4-7 years and the rats only reach plague proportions every 3-4 large masts, which puts the really damaging rat plagues at once every 20-25 years.

Rats have been trapped effectively, in Fiordland in DOC trapping trials, during what DOC has described as a mast year.


Can be a big mast year every 4 years and if there is a big rat increase every third mast it could 12 years rats get out of control ? or is my maths crap ?

Good to see you have faith in DoC researchers and scientists  Wink




Range = 12-28 years

Go and have a look at Graham Elliot's video that came out at the time of the first Battle for our Birds operations. The graph he was using showed a 25 year interval between rat plagues. He admitted that he didn't know what actually caused a rat plague as it didn't happen every time there was a big mast so there must be some other, as yet unknown factor, other than food, that sets the rats breeding like mad.
  
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #24 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 4:10pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:08pm:
Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 6:27pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:32am:
Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 8:06am:
I got a feeling that there is a bit of a difference between where you trap and kea/weka areas esp the kea.

I also wonder from previous posts if you have experienced mast years that we get down here as i feel trapping wouldnt even go half way to controlling rat and mice populations and then the follow on stoat numbers.

Your posts are thought provoking however and that is good.  Smiley



The really big masts only happen in Red Beech. The other beeches do have large masts, however, they are not as big. All mixed forest types do not have really big mast years as the different trees mast on different years, which means there is some fluctuation in rat numbers, however, they never reach plague proportions like the Red Beech.

The work Graham Elliot has done shows that there is a big Red Beech mast every 4-7 years and the rats only reach plague proportions every 3-4 large masts, which puts the really damaging rat plagues at once every 20-25 years.

Rats have been trapped effectively, in Fiordland in DOC trapping trials, during what DOC has described as a mast year.


Can be a big mast year every 4 years and if there is a big rat increase every third mast it could 12 years rats get out of control ? or is my maths crap ?

Good to see you have faith in DoC researchers and scientists  Wink




Range = 12-28 years

Go and have a look at Graham Elliot's video that came out at the time of the first Battle for our Birds operations. The graph he was using showed a 25 year interval between rat plagues. He admitted that he didn't know what actually caused a rat plague as it didn't happen every time there was a big mast so there must be some other, as yet unknown factor, other than food, that sets the rats breeding like mad.


Hi Marty,

Could you put up a link please, I have found a couple of videos but possibly not the one that you mean ?

  
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #25 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 4:55pm
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Salmoner wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 4:10pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 10:08pm:
Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 6:27pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 9:32am:
Salmoner wrote on Jun 13th, 2018 at 8:06am:
I got a feeling that there is a bit of a difference between where you trap and kea/weka areas esp the kea.

I also wonder from previous posts if you have experienced mast years that we get down here as i feel trapping wouldnt even go half way to controlling rat and mice populations and then the follow on stoat numbers.

Your posts are thought provoking however and that is good.  Smiley



The really big masts only happen in Red Beech. The other beeches do have large masts, however, they are not as big. All mixed forest types do not have really big mast years as the different trees mast on different years, which means there is some fluctuation in rat numbers, however, they never reach plague proportions like the Red Beech.

The work Graham Elliot has done shows that there is a big Red Beech mast every 4-7 years and the rats only reach plague proportions every 3-4 large masts, which puts the really damaging rat plagues at once every 20-25 years.

Rats have been trapped effectively, in Fiordland in DOC trapping trials, during what DOC has described as a mast year.


Can be a big mast year every 4 years and if there is a big rat increase every third mast it could 12 years rats get out of control ? or is my maths crap ?

Good to see you have faith in DoC researchers and scientists  Wink




Range = 12-28 years

Go and have a look at Graham Elliot's video that came out at the time of the first Battle for our Birds operations. The graph he was using showed a 25 year interval between rat plagues. He admitted that he didn't know what actually caused a rat plague as it didn't happen every time there was a big mast so there must be some other, as yet unknown factor, other than food, that sets the rats breeding like mad.


Hi Marty,

Could you put up a link please, I have found a couple of videos but possibly not the one that you mean ?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_yxtZAaXoU&t=125s

You will see that the stoats cause small "saw-tooth" problems, on a four  year cycle, that quietly work away at the birds and that stoats can be effectively controlled with traps.

The big damaging rat plagues happen in 20-25 year cycles.

Nowhere is there any indication that hard out aerial 1080 control is needed every two years.

The graphs start after 7 minutes.
  
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #26 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 8:07pm
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That video was put up by an anti 1080 group ? Quite frankly if that is so and that is best arguement they have to say that 1080 isnt working or needed it is embarrassing for them. Check out the 26.35 min mark, what do you see ?

Yes i would agree that stoats can be controlled with very intensive trapping.

The massive rat plagues do happen i would argue more regularly than every 20 to 25 years.

A "small area" mast event [but high rodent populations]  in one valley can have dire consequences for the bird population in that valley. I am very familiar with the Hawdon and Poulter Rivers in Arthurs Pass NP and these 2 rivers are 2 of only 3 areas where mohua and orange front kakariki live in Canterbury, the other being the Hurunui, there are very very low populations in all 3 valleys.  Get a mast year in any of these valleys and you are really knocking the world wide population of these birds around. I have experienced a rodent plague in one valley and the parallel valley has no plague so very localised mast events can occur, they might be small area events but they can be very damaging esp to the female population. 

I didnt actually see or hear where he was advocating "hard out" 1080 every 2 years , did you ? What i saw was that monitoring was probably the best tool they had but even that wasnt an exact science.
  
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Re: 1080 vs ground control costings
Reply #27 - Jun 14th, 2018 at 9:03pm
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Salmoner wrote on Jun 14th, 2018 at 8:07pm:
That video was put up by an anti 1080 group ? Quite frankly if that is so and that is best arguement they have to say that 1080 isnt working or needed it is embarrassing for them. Check out the 26.35 min mark, what do you see ?

Yes i would agree that stoats can be controlled with very intensive trapping.

The massive rat plagues do happen i would argue more regularly than every 20 to 25 years.

A "small area" mast event [but high rodent populations]  in one valley can have dire consequences for the bird population in that valley. I am very familiar with the Hawdon and Poulter Rivers in Arthurs Pass NP and these 2 rivers are 2 of only 3 areas where mohua and orange front kakariki live in Canterbury, the other being the Hurunui, there are very very low populations in all 3 valleys.  Get a mast year in any of these valleys and you are really knocking the world wide population of these birds around. I have experienced a rodent plague in one valley and the parallel valley has no plague so very localised mast events can occur, they might be small area events but they can be very damaging esp to the female population. 

I didnt actually see or hear where he was advocating "hard out" 1080 every 2 years , did you ? What i saw was that monitoring was probably the best tool they had but even that wasnt an exact science.


During one of my email discussions with DOC I made the comment that DOC wouldn't have been happy about the release of the video...DOC's response was that DOC had released the video and wanted it to be as publicly available as possible.

The hard out 1080 biannual programme is what is being promoted now and what was started at the time of the release of the video. You are right, he is not promoting biannual aerial 1080. The increased use of 1080 has been dictated by Wellington and does not stack up, as being reasonable, when you look at what the top DOC bird scientist is saying.

When I talk with DOC scientists and DOC field staff, we are able to communicate effectively and if we were allowed to work together we would find the best all round solution to the problem. The real issue is that successive Minister's of Conservation, DOC Head Office, along with political supporters like F&B, Green Party, etc have poked their noses into, what should be on-the-ground field type decisions, and turned them into political decisions that do not achieve what the promoters have promised.

They are now in the position where they have to continue with the deceit or admit that they have been wrong in forcing political agenda decisions into what should have always been Conservancy on-the-ground field decisions.

I have good relations with many DOC scientists and field staff....I only run into real problems when DOC Head Office or the Minister becomes involved. That should tell you something about what is going on. There is a disconnect between Wellington and many DOC people in the Conservancies, with Wellington telling the Conservancy people that if they express any negative opinions about the decisions Wellington has made, and forced upon the Conservancies, then they can expect to be punished through the use of breaching the confidentiality agreements in their employment contracts.

The people on the ground (DOC field staff and wild animal control contractors) are in agreement and should be allowed to work together without interference from Wellington. The negotiations that we went through looked at what needed to be changed, in the planning procedures, to allow Conservancies to employ ground contractors where previously they had been disallowed. There were no changes needed as the procedures had been written to allow what we were asking for. The problem was that the procedures had to be ignored in order to accommodate the political dictates coming from Wellington.
  
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