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Normal Topic here we go again...270 (Read 2102 times)
imjustme
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here we go again...270
May 27th, 2018 at 1:39pm
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fellas.
A while ago I asked the question re my 270 and powders ect...well I settled on 2213sc norma brass (all new) 140gn nosler bt.
velocities weren't great (2800) but it shot like a demond. so I was happy as.
So Ive gone through all my new brass and started reloading second time  around. I noticed the seating pressure is a lot tighter in the resized brass second time around and boy has it made a difference and not in a good way..
Its not grouping as well and may be running a little slower as its poi is 3 in lower than the first lot....wtf. gutted. Id rather not by new brass all the time to get my old load back ...it get bit expensive
Im now wondering if I should try another powder and was thinking about the Hornady superformance.
I have done some research, as ya do. and while not popular it has done well in some cases.
So yea just wondering if anyone on here has had any joy, or has any advice.
do you all have problems reloading second time around? is that normal?
and shell I just work up a new load with used cases and hope it stay consistent?
cheers in advance people.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #1 - May 27th, 2018 at 2:29pm
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I'm guessing that by "seating pressure"you mean whats often referred to as neck tension.
Seems strange that neck tension alone would make that much difference. I've used 58 gr of 2213 with 140 gr Accubonds for years, but I only neck size (as opposed to full length).
While I use RCBS and Redding dies, my neck sizing die is a Lee collet die. These have a floating expander ball and seem to be a bit gentler on the brass necks so might be worth a try.They're not very expensive
Id also maybe check that your powder load and seating depth isn't compressing the load. That doesnt explain neck tension but will contribute to changes in poi.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #2 - May 27th, 2018 at 4:34pm
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Mooseman at the other site has a 140gr load using superformance powder that is "next level". I would check it out if i still had a 270Win.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #3 - May 27th, 2018 at 7:11pm
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Sounds more like head space to me. Do you load C.O.L. or O.A.L.?
If C.O.L. your brass might have extended and you are now too close to the rifling?
  
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Micky Duck
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #4 - May 27th, 2018 at 7:12pm
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have you trimmed to length?????
did you champher case mouths????
did you run new cases through dies or load as they came????
are you lubing case mouths when resizing???I use powdered graphite in lid of lead shot...
if anything the used cases SHOULD be slightly bigger in capacity so maybe slightly more powder needed??never seen it myself but never bought new brass either.
if your loads are 3" low but group still tight,run with it and dont for crying out loud put load over a chrony.... far better to have an accurate load thats a little slower than maximum speed and crap grouping,unless its your up close n personal bush load.
  
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6.5x55bjai
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #5 - May 27th, 2018 at 10:29pm
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Chrony your load again. From your original post it would appear you did this during development. You are flying in the dark without that info.

I use Lapua these days over several calibers and it is always super tight (high seating pressure) on the first loading, even after running an expander thru the necks. So, cannot understand why you're getting high seating force on the second load. Try putting a vernier across the expander plug on your sizing die.

New factory cases will usually expand on first firing reducing their capacity and the size of the pressure vessel and the resultant pressure generated. They would have to expand a huge amount to drastically affect your second load velocity though and if they were under size to start with you would potentially have other problems eg headspacing and maybe misfires.

Need more info eg velocity, condition/description of fired primers etc. Scales used, scales checked, same powder lot throughout and so on. Full length sizing or neck sizing. Any problems chambering the cases 1st loading or 2nd loading.
Most vitally though a velocity.
  
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imjustme
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #6 - May 28th, 2018 at 9:45am
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wow lots of variables
Do i lube? Yes Wink
do I trim?  no Wink they never really stretch a trimable amount to trim from new.
did I run through the size die from new? no.
Its the very same load recipe as the first load in every way apart from second hand cases. I can't give ya the name of the scales but its a very good electric auto everything type, tested against a good old balance scale and test weights so I have confidence their.
how do i measure? loa and Im limited to mag length so im maxed out.
can't remember the jump but remember it being a little more than I would have liked, That said it grouped so well I wasn't worried about it.
And no I dint crony this new load. as I need to borrow one which I don't like to do. I was gonna work it out after I'd checked zero with bullet drop at range, as I found it to be so consistent with the shooter app in the past.
BTW that 3 in" low is at 200 M as thats what I zero at. So yea not sure about speed as I only had three to test run. It could be just a different POI? Id be ok with that if I got a better group, it printed over 2.5" at 200M which isn't all bad i know but my old load was 1" at 200M (maybe I just had a really good day).
....just another thought popped into mined....Summer vs winter? would it make that much difference? with ADI powders ect
hope that answers some questions
cheers for the reply's thus far  Smiley   
  
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Micky Duck
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #7 - May 28th, 2018 at 5:03pm
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reason I asked about trim is to check overall case length...if the new case was borderline long and it stretched a little it COULD BE  wee bit too long thus tight to seat projectile.....just thought was all.
same size from new ...eliminated point from above,undersized expander plug....
summer vs winter could definately be difference,hot case/powder/rifle will run higher pressure I believe...thats why guys dont make a hot load in cool conditions,,,,,it be rifle wrecker in heat of summer.

if youve only tried 3 loads and get 2.5" at 200 yards well youve proven rifle will go bang 3 times and hit target but it couldve been a bad day for you too so I wouldnt be in hurry to say you have an issue...also I assume you fired 3 of old load at same range session???? which would rule out any other reason for POI shift....
as for overall length,Im limited by mag in my old mod 70 and it dont worry me a hoot,last 2 deer went arse over tit with 140 grn hornady no problem.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #8 - May 28th, 2018 at 7:22pm
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M D
I put a few down range before the test of my latest so yea it was quite obvious to see the difference.
I checked out Moosemans post on the "other site" suggested by Evergreen (thanks for that) and Im sold on testing some superformance powder .
so at the end of it Ill ether have a pot of 2213 or most of a pot of super to sell....
Ill let yall know how I got on
thanks
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #9 - May 28th, 2018 at 8:21pm
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I would say that the sizing button in the die is slightly small and not expanding the neck up as much as the new brass.
First I'd take out the sizing button and measure it to see how big it is. I'm
One option is to buy Redding dies that have the interchangeable inserts (can't remember the proper name) that size the neck down a minimal amount, they aren't cheap though.
You might be able to buy a new sizing button that is slightly bigger.
Otherwise a different brand of die might be worth a try.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #10 - May 28th, 2018 at 8:58pm
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yea maybe.....they are the hornady three set.
got them second hand sooooo.....maybe
  
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Micky Duck
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #11 - May 28th, 2018 at 9:24pm
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good stuff...mate in states tried the super after I showed him same thread.....his results were interesting to say the least.... where it was good it was good but where it wasnt it really wasnt....accuracy was fine but velocity erratic...and this fella is pedantic.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #12 - May 28th, 2018 at 10:53pm
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I'd suggest having a second session at a target, if same results playing with your sizing/neck die is where I'd be starting
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #13 - May 29th, 2018 at 4:54pm
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Micky Duck wrote on May 28th, 2018 at 9:24pm:
good stuff...mate in states tried the super after I showed him same thread.....his results were interesting to say the least.... where it was good it was good but where it wasnt it really wasnt....accuracy was fine but velocity erratic...and this fella is pedantic.

good to know. I have gone to 7mm now bit used 2209 to good effect with 110 and 130gr.
  
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Micky Duck
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #14 - May 29th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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imjustme wrote on May 28th, 2018 at 8:58pm:
yea maybe.....they are the hornady three set.
got them second hand sooooo.....maybe

might be worth running calipers across BOTH sizing buttons if neck one is larger switch them and try again..... funny I ran mine in cordless drill and sandpapered the edges down....maybe someone did same but took it too far.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #15 - May 29th, 2018 at 5:36pm
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yea thats some sound reasoning for the problem, Im gonna check it out...all my gear is at a friends place where I do my loading so the way life is it could be a while but watch this space.
cheers all you good buggers.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #16 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 7:27pm
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Question
So I have decided to work up another load as this latest one is not so great I have superformance powder to try and some 145 gn sst's (going for the better bc)
Anyway my over all bullet length can only be 84.5mm as thats the length of my mag this gives me a jump of 2.85mm to the lands. Sounds like a lot to me is that even ok for the rifle ya think?
Thoughts anyone
Cheers
Oh and btw I measured the buttons on the die set and they seem good. look like new even.
guess I should have sized the new brass for consistency
  
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Micky Duck
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #17 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 8:39pm
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in MY poohseventy I always load to magazine length as it is plurry near impossible to get anywhere near the lands....with a 130grn ballistic tip it is barely within the case mouth. accuracy is fine and more than enough for any hunting I will ever do.hovers around the inch mark no matter what load it gets fed.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #18 - Jun 15th, 2018 at 10:49pm
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Your original load at 58g of 2231sc is plenty good enough dont be fixated on way over max loads, its hard on brass and will lengthen  it, plus open primer pockets quicker. try rcbs dies and full length size your brass to sammi spec or to your chamber length less 0,05mm. Purchase the correct gauges for this and lube cases in the necks and on the body. If you bend the necks (run out) all can turn to shit, a bent expander ball will do this. If you cannot get 5-6 repeatable hand loads per case then you are making mistakes. Measurement is the key, check the sized brass in your chamber before loading it, pick up faults early, get the correct measuring equipment, wear glasses if it helps.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #19 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:28am
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I full length size always, put it through a fixed length trimmer as a habit. You can get a cheap lee hand cutter and shell holder,which will trim to the correct length 64.26mm, it only cuts when case is longer than. You say loading with new brass  is getting a good result so why change powder, it's your resizing of the once fired brass that's changing results. normally you change powder if your repeating reloads just don't group tight enough, key word is repeating. Example, I was getting 28mm groups with 2213sc @ 200m 140g interlock, (my worst of the best 140g projectile groupings) with rl22 @ 56.0g mild load (winter test) and they can be touching @200m, the 2213sc result was still plenty good enough for hunting. BT 140g book max of 2213sc is very good also and easy on brass, control the bore copper fowling when load testing, good luck.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #20 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 9:36am
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re run out..concintricity..... what I was taught to do and have always done and when they have been checked or others do it and check it works is...when seating projectile start it into case then stop and rotate 180 degrees and finish seating.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #21 - Jun 18th, 2018 at 1:16pm
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cheers guys
yea I have made up another lot to test of the original load just to make sure the last lot (second fired) wasn't a miss measure or what ever. I also have a few new loads to test of superformance and 145 sst's same as mooseman on "the other forum". I started lower and will work up to his load of 57gn.
Im not after a hot load, i was happy at 2800 and Ill be happy at 2800 again. Ive never been able to reach the speeds of a lot of 270's with this rifle, dunno wether its just a slow barrel or me not having the nuts to push it.
I measured my dies and they read ok (both the same) but Im still just neck sizing. I measured my brass and none of it is over length and it chambers well so...
anyway Ill let ya's know the results when I get to the farm for a test fire  again.
thanks again
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #22 - Jun 18th, 2018 at 7:00pm
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good stuff bud,re reading Mr Fosters reloading book last weekend he does mention there can be quite a difference between new and fireformed brass as capacity changes and brass behaves differently.
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #23 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 10:14am
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Dont get hung up on velocity. Provided you've got a reliable drop chart you'll be fine. 2800 - 3000 out of your 270 will be sweet
  
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Re: here we go again...270
Reply #24 - Jun 20th, 2018 at 11:52pm
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I just buy the ammo and pull the trigger,lot easier. Grin if I was younger id get into reloading. Wink
  

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