Question - for the purposes of predator control, are deer classified as a "predator"? Or are the simply bykill of a predator elimination project?

I sure hope you are right headcase,the birdlife down there is pretty special too.

jwingill wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:48am:


Thanks for that link....interesting.

Not convinced that all of that work is entirely objective, and that it would withstand the scrutiny of rigorous peer review, but maybe that wasn't its intention?

They will be a lot happier after they f*** the place.
Where's Halfway these days?

Why? they only want it to be preditor free.

lol, from the Doc website,

The following values underpin the vision:

collaboration of all the stakeholders affected and/or willing to contribute
application of the latest science and technology
building the project in a way that interlinks environmental, social and economic benefits
honouring our cultural history, Mo tatou, a, mo ka uri a muri ake nei – for us and for generations to come.

So they are saying they will be using brodi instead of 1080 because its more modern. 

LOVETT wrote on May 18^th, 2018 at 1:19am:




devide and conquer...let them wipe out the whitetail down there and they will start on next herd they want gone and do the same....the wapiti would be next logical choice......only a few hunters to protest same as the island....hmmmmm blue mountains fallow same reasons,then greenstone/caples.....mustnt forget the north island....everything north of lake taupo...let the green rain flood the whole country..heck these morons havent read what survives after a nuke goes off...cockroaches and rats..... sure they can fence off bits and get them pest free and keep them that way WITH HUGE EFFORT over long term...but large scale it becomes like gorilla warfare.....(read "the war of the flea" )   the defender of territory has to hold it all at all costs,the gorilla   (or rats,cats etc) dont have to hold/defend anything,they simply have to survive to win... the cost of defence is astronomical compared to existance.
good on the powers that be for deciding to have a go but the pet cats one is classic case....sure sterilize all that are there now and allow no more.with say $100,000 fine if caught with breeding capable moggy,cant pay=eviction from island for life,that would be a good deterrant.

An excellent initiative.They did it with the islands in the southern ocean for rats mice and  a million rabbits.

headcase wrote on May 20^th, 2018 at 11:54pm:


Are you asking me that q`s?

If so they used traps and sniffer dogs to find every rabbit and cat etc

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/pages/f47bc054-b46d-40f2-85a5-782552...



Macquarie Island Shows Consequences of Cat Eradication - The New ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/science/17isla.html
Feb 16, 2009 - Macquarie Island looks beautiful, but it has become a sobering illustration ... With the cats gone, the island's rabbits (also non-native) began to ...
Macquarie Island, once ruled by rabbits, is saved by the dogs
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/.../macquarie-island...rabbits.../903fb81b589d5....
Feb 20, 2016 - October 2009, Macquarie Island, halfway between New Zealand and Antarctica. ... No surprise: the cats went feral and the rabbits and rodents ...
Macquarie Island wildlife recovering after rabbit eradication - ABC ...
www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-19/macquarie-island...rabbit-eradication/6400834
Apr 18, 2015 - After decades of being overrun with feral rabbits, World Heritage-listed Macquarie Island is on its way to returning to the wildlife haven it once .

What a wonderful opportunity it is if only DOC had bigger vision to realize that this island could be a show piece for all the world to see how by using man to control all the pests ...rats ,stoats, weasels,wild cats & wasps, to be able to almost wipe them out, cause you never will have 100% eradication. But I think there are other parties with their agendas who hold hands with DOC & sensibility will never be at the foremost. As EC mentioned, nature will balance itself out - until man gets in the way!
Personally I think DOC should be totally disbanded & a new infrastructure be set up,based on the objectives of the majority with on going accountability. After all its my tax money being thrown away.

levactn wrote on Jun 26^th, 2018 at 11:37pm:


You mean like this place ? 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12016997

All introduced animals are considered as pests or predators by DOC and F&B. The possum is a herbivore and is labelled a predator. The term "predator" is used as an emotive term to generate support form urban folk who will never enter the bush and learn, for themselves, what the actual real dynamics are

DOC cannot openly label deer as pests, to be killed the same way they can target possums, however, there is a belief, within DOC and extremists like F&B, that deer should be considered pests to be eradicated.

There is another way of looking at deer management, which actually was being implemented, very effectively, when deer cullers and government shooters were being employed. The other way is to look at hunters, in the absence of large predators like wolves, as the top end predator to be encouraged to do what wolves do in other areas.

When wolves were reintroduced into Yellowstone the deer populations did decline and there were benefits that led to degraded vegetation that has recovered. However, the fact that wolves were killing deer was not the whole story about recovering vegetation. The deer changed their feeding patterns as a result of being hunted by wolves. The deer were no longer able to stay in preferred habitats and the wolves were acting as shepherds would act by ensuring the deer were continually moving onto new grazing.

In the days of the NZ deer culler and government shooter there was a network of huts and tracks set up to support the top end deer predator. The hunters were targeted into certain catchments until the numbers of deer shot were low and they were then moved into new catchments. The hunters did not shoot all the deer as the deer moved away from where the hunters were operating. The hunters were doing the same job that the wolves are now doing in Yellowstone.

After the deer numbers took a dive the numbers of deer shot was much the same, on an annual basis, even after NZFS took over the deer shooting role from Internal Affairs and changed the name from deer culler to government shooter. The only difference was that the shooters were paid less and more money was spent on building supporting infrastructure like huts and tracks. In recent years much of the supporting infrastructure has been destroyed with the only huts and tracks remaining being the ones that DOC can justify charging fees for. The destruction of huts, hunter camps and the refusal to maintain tracks has been deliberately done in a bid to recreate "wilderness areas". This has had the flow on effect that it is becoming ever more increasingly difficult and expensive for hunters to carry out the role of top predator.

The fact that "Wilderness areas", without supporting hunting infrastructure, are being promoted should be warning signals that the plan is to find ways of killing deer that does not involve hunters. If the huts and tracks were rebuilt and huts were comfortable, had reliable sources of fuel (firewood/gas) and food safes, as had been supplied in the past, combined with a planned hunting programme that encourages hunters to shoot deer in places where the deer have moved to, you could recreate the same result that has happened in Yellowstone with the interactions between wolves, deer and vegetation recovery.

DOC has actually set the precedence with the continued use of goat hunters who are still doing what the government shooters, of old, used to do with the exception they are only targeting goats. The need for goat hunters was established when it was realised that goats could not be controlled using aerial 1080 and the only method of effective control was to use hunters.

Salmoner wrote on Jul 8^th, 2018 at 6:53am:



There are some points for consideration here:

1) The massive scale of the poisoning on the smaller islands will never be repeated on Stewart Island as there will be such a big by-kill in order to eradicate rodents.

2) DOC is not reporting any by-kill figures for their island eradication programmes. We don't know how many unmonitored species of insects and birds that have also been eradicated. We don't know to the extent that sea life has been poisoned or any longer term ramifications of the poisoning of sea life or the loss of unmonitored insect species.

3) On larger islands and the mainland, with more diverse ecosystems, aerial poisoning is never going to eradicate rodents, stoats, cats, possums, etc without finishing off with traps. If traps are going to be needed to finish the job off, why not using traps from the start and take no risks as to poisoning the ecosystem and causing damage that may never be rectified?

4) Why has the debate got to the point where DOC feels the need to heavily defend aerial poisoning, at any cost, even in the face of DOC's own field staff and scientists calling for them to have the ability to use more ground based methods because the ground based methods are working and there are none of the negative ramification that go with aerial poisoning?

Marty Foote wrote on Jul 8^th, 2018 at 9:36am:

There are negative ramifications for trapping though,  I for one know of kiwis caught in traps. So while I agree with you it is hard to say there is none of the negative ramifications. There are less would be better. 

I know of someone very well who is involved with the Goat killing thing,for DOC.
DOC at the top are quite pissed that the 1080 does not drop the goats as it does  the deer,,don't know if that applies to all DOC  bods or not.
My friend remarked that he and his culling mates were specifically told to shoot every deer they could also.Now whether or not that was only for a certain block,I didn't ask.
Thanks Marty fi dreaming that one 

EC wrote on Jul 8^th, 2018 at 11:37pm:


Quote:

as I said, goat shooting has been going on forever. and will continue
Marty is dreaming
If killing goats was a successful bykill of aerial 1080  then IMO that's a bloody good thing. sooner thyre got rid of the better

PS the IAD and NZFS were shooting goats from day one. Both attempted Successfully to target  deer by aerial 1080. and not successfully for good for goats. (except cut vege  poison with 1080 gel)

But that had no bearing on the decision to use foot hunters. it was a political decision not to use 1080

Salmoner wrote on Jul 8^th, 2018 at 10:00am:

Rubbish. There has been regular re-infestation of rats to ULVA Island. The serious and proven bykill of non target spp is something you (and DoC ) wish to avoid discussing or even revealing to the wider public. Quite  apart from MacQuarrie and Ulva marine margin , have you conveniently forgotten the poisoned sea creatures in Hauraki Gulf after brodifacoum drops on those local islands and the discovery of birds killed  by weed control contractors which DoC monitoring failed to find or report? ! To try to justify the poisoning of Stewart Island on the pretext of success on small remote islands is neither reasonable or realistic. Quite frankly it reeks of the type of misleading hysteria often thrust on the public via manipulated mass media by extremist influences,  IMHO.

huntnfish wrote on Jul 9^th, 2018 at 7:56am:


eradication is possible.
but reinfestation is near difficult to stop
Ulva island is a short distance from the main island, and is impossible to prevent. ditto boats cause reinfestation
but intensive trapping/monitoring can  get what reinvades, usually

If an area has a barrier (like an ocean) as a buffer, then eradication IS possible

I thought this wee discussion was about removal of ALL pests. This is possible

keeping them out is another,
even mainland island fenced sanctuaries cant keep them out

presumably, if all pests were eradicated from say Rakiura, then long as reintroduction is prevented, should stay pest free

manyislands have reinfestation problems

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looks like you might need it, ED

You of all people know, that why goats are controlled by goats now, is for the same reasons as it was by the NZFS and IAD
Nothing has changed
marty doesn't know what he's talking about,

Quote:


TH....On the one hand, you seem to agree with me that, before DOC was created, aerial 1080 was proved to kill deer effectively and was not as effective on goats, with the only effective way to kill goats with 1080 is to paint toxic 1080 gel on vegetation. And on the other hand, you seem to be saying that I don't know what I am talking about when I say that goats need to be controlled by hunting because aerial 1080 will not control goats.

The 1080 gel was seriously considered as a goat control method. It was rejected as it was too dangerous as anything, including humans, could be easily poisoned by simply walking past the 1080 painted vegetation and rubbing the 1080 gel onto exposed skin.

Goat hunters were only retained because they are the only option DOC has to control goats. This brings up another conflict in DOC's propaganda, in that, goat hunters would seem to be superhuman, when compared to possum trappers, as goat hunters are able to operate, very effectively, in the same rugged/remote/inaccessible places that are impossible for possum trappers to even consider setting traps in.

I really want to say something else but being the polite bugger i am i will refrain.

SOMEONE SAID THAT YOU WILL NEVER HAVE COMPLETE ERADICATION... that is obviously bullshit as i have pointed out, what part of that dont you understand !
I obviously cant use Stewart Island as example of complete eradication as it hasnt been bloody tried on Stewart Island !!!!

Someone also said that how can you compare eradicating pests on a small offshore island to poisoning a big island like Stewart Island (WHICH I HAVE NEVER ADVOCATED and never would). Well there has been COMPLETE AND UTTER ERADICATION of pests on an island TWICE the size of Stewart Island !!! Are you aware of that ?

Yeah this is a thread about Stewart Island. Go back to your post  #23, you start your ramble on wolves.. the 6 or so times i have been on Stewart Island i have only heard wolves on ... let me think , oh yeah no occasions..
Oh and same post you mention goats, last time i was there i came across how many goats ?

Glass house , stone throwers

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Jeeze Marty. here we go again
Your statement implies the DOc set a precedence because they couldn't poison goats (and by implication, if the could, they would be poisoning goats)
That's just absolute rubbish
It was known way before DOC exsisted, and goats wouldn't take 1080 bait (apart from veg using 1080 gel)

DOC didn't set a precedence or invent a policy of having to shoot goats , it was known many years  befor.
But, the big poisoners of big game were the NZFS.   -aerial carrot and cut vege 1080 gel. (there was actually a successful 1080 gel poison operation on Stewart island to control whitetail deer. it was very successful I gather)

DOC never continued with the idea of aerial poisoning targeting deer

So FFS stay on the topic and stop coming up with  distractions
And I've never seen wolves chasing deer or anything else here.
And I don't think the deer cullers caused deer to shift somewhere else like wolves did. Spelling areas is a normal animal animal control practice. be it foot shooting, WARO . Has SFA to to with what wolves do
And as for some story about wolves and the deer cullers, that's twaddle.

ps, if someone could invent a way to poison goats and exterminate them, it would be a bloody good idea.

Marty you really are a mine of misinformation. Where do you dredge it all up from, Hans Willems articles?

Bon wrote on Jul 10^th, 2018 at 9:17am:


Nope....I had to look up Hans Willems to find out who you are talking about.

Try personal experience in the bush and many years of dealing with DOC, AHB/TBFree/OSPRI, Regional Councils and their aerial application company offspring, F&B spokespeople, real-life bushman and hunters, etc.

Many of my leads come from people working within the government owned poison industry, that will talk to me because I will never dob them in by using information that can be traced back to an individual.

All I do then is ask questions and make OIA requests until I can get to the truth about what is going on.

Pretty simple really, even if it is time consuming and frustrating at times. The poisoning industry has built a set of rules about how to make sure information is not readily available and they use arguments, that distract people from the problems they are creating, in a way that people only see what the poisoning industry want them to see, even if that sight is not the real truth of what is happening.

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Tell me then TH....Why the EPA reports I quoted from show a deliberate attempt to distract the NZ Public from the fact that the aerial 1080 programme was not "saving" Orange-fronted parakeet.

For 3-4 years DOC recorded that there "was no substantial decline in the OFP numbers". It was only in the last year reported that it became obvious that DOC had not been able to find any OFP for a number of years.

The DOC reported statement, about no substantial decline on OFP, was correct, except DOC failed to report that there can be no decline, what-so-ever, substantial or not, if the population was already at zero.

DOC was even dropping 1080 over rat populations that were less than 5%, when the target was 5%, and then DOC claimed that the 1080 control was successful because the post-1080 result was below the target of 5%.

See what I mean?....DOC paints a mental picture that they know is not true and when someone comes up with some well thought out alternative thoughts, backed up with facts created by DOC monitoring results, DOC does, what you are doing, and ridicules the messenger and starts painting another false picture to be consumed by the naive and unwary.

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It wasn't that long ago that you were complaining about me making comment without facts, created by DOC, to back them up. After months and years of sending OIA requests into DOC, I am receiving the documentation that you wanted me to present. NOW, you are the one that is making comment without supporting documentation and you are not even addressing the information, contained in the DOC documents, that I am presenting.

Another interesting thing, about the Orange-fronted parakeet recovery plan, is that in the introduction it goes into some detail that the plan is a document written in order to promote public discussion. DOC then doesn't publish the plan and, therefore, public discussion cannot happen as the public doesn't have access to the document that was written in order to promote public discussion.

Your whole approach seems to be to shut down any public discussion that doesn't agree the work that you did when you were working within the government owned poison industry.