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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer. (Read 15963 times)
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #30 - Jul 8th, 2018 at 11:59pm
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DHDS (Deerhunter Duckshooter) wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 9:36am:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 6:53am:
huntnfish wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 9:36am:
If its anything like the MacQuarrie island poisoning, there will have been hundreds of protected seabirds
killed as well. Where are the DoC figures for bykill and coastal marine effects? Like the shellfish and blue cod absorbing brodifacoum after the Ulva island drop; where DoC poisoned because they failed to maintain the network of traplines established by volunteers over years?   !


Quite simply you agreed with levactn that you will never get 100% kill. All i did was point out you were incorrect ?



There are some points for consideration here:

1) The massive scale of the poisoning on the smaller islands will never be repeated on Stewart Island as there will be such a big by-kill in order to eradicate rodents.

2) DOC is not reporting any by-kill figures for their island eradication programmes. We don't know how many unmonitored species of insects and birds that have also been eradicated. We don't know to the extent that sea life has been poisoned or any longer term ramifications of the poisoning of sea life or the loss of unmonitored insect species.

3) On larger islands and the mainland, with more diverse ecosystems, aerial poisoning is never going to eradicate rodents, stoats, cats, possums, etc without finishing off with traps. If traps are going to be needed to finish the job off, why not using traps from the start and take no risks as to poisoning the ecosystem and causing damage that may never be rectified?

4) Why has the debate got to the point where DOC feels the need to heavily defend aerial poisoning, at any cost, even in the face of DOC's own field staff and scientists calling for them to have the ability to use more ground based methods because the ground based methods are working and there are none of the negative ramification that go with aerial poisoning?

There are negative ramifications for trapping though,  I for one know of kiwis caught in traps. So while I agree with you it is hard to say there is none of the negative ramifications. There are less would be better.  Roll Eyes


The leg hold trapping done in kiwi weka areas should all be elevated. I would guess if kiwi were caught then those traps were set illegally.
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #31 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 12:58am
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EC wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 11:37pm:
I know of someone very well who is involved with the Goat killing thing,for DOC.
DOC at the top are quite pissed that the 1080 does not drop the goats as it does  the deer,,don't know if that applies to all DOC  bods or not.
My friend remarked that he and his culling mates were specifically told to shoot every deer they could also.Now whether or not that was only for a certain block,I didn't ask.
Thanks Marty fi dreaming that one  Grin




Quote:
The need for goat hunters was established when it was realised that goats could not be controlled using aerial 1080

as I said, goat shooting has been going on forever. and will continue
Marty is dreaming
If killing goats was a successful bykill of aerial 1080  then IMO that's a bloody good thing. sooner thyre got rid of the better

PS the IAD and NZFS were shooting goats from day one. Both attempted Successfully to target  deer by aerial 1080. and not successfully for good for goats. (except cut vege  poison with 1080 gel)

But that had no bearing on the decision to use foot hunters. it was a political decision not to use 1080
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #32 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 3:27am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 11:59pm:
DHDS (Deerhunter Duckshooter) wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 9:36am:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 6:53am:
huntnfish wrote on Jul 7th, 2018 at 9:36am:
If its anything like the MacQuarrie island poisoning, there will have been hundreds of protected seabirds
killed as well. Where are the DoC figures for bykill and coastal marine effects? Like the shellfish and blue cod absorbing brodifacoum after the Ulva island drop; where DoC poisoned because they failed to maintain the network of traplines established by volunteers over years?   !


Quite simply you agreed with levactn that you will never get 100% kill. All i did was point out you were incorrect ?



There are some points for consideration here:

1) The massive scale of the poisoning on the smaller islands will never be repeated on Stewart Island as there will be such a big by-kill in order to eradicate rodents.

2) DOC is not reporting any by-kill figures for their island eradication programmes. We don't know how many unmonitored species of insects and birds that have also been eradicated. We don't know to the extent that sea life has been poisoned or any longer term ramifications of the poisoning of sea life or the loss of unmonitored insect species.

3) On larger islands and the mainland, with more diverse ecosystems, aerial poisoning is never going to eradicate rodents, stoats, cats, possums, etc without finishing off with traps. If traps are going to be needed to finish the job off, why not using traps from the start and take no risks as to poisoning the ecosystem and causing damage that may never be rectified?

4) Why has the debate got to the point where DOC feels the need to heavily defend aerial poisoning, at any cost, even in the face of DOC's own field staff and scientists calling for them to have the ability to use more ground based methods because the ground based methods are working and there are none of the negative ramification that go with aerial poisoning?

There are negative ramifications for trapping though,  I for one know of kiwis caught in traps. So while I agree with you it is hard to say there is none of the negative ramifications. There are less would be better.  Roll Eyes


The leg hold trapping done in kiwi weka areas should all be elevated. I would guess if kiwi were caught then those traps were set illegally.

There was a permit and lifited leghold trap, I would still guess human error somehow, but that is going to happen if we trap all of New Zealand.  People make mistakes, especially when tired or under financial pressure.
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #33 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 7:56am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 10:00am:
There are NO other points to consider. The statement was made , "you will never get complete eradication". That statement has proven to be 100% incorrect. Pretty simple really, do you wish to debate that ?

The other information you wish to discuss is pure distraction from the incorrect statement that was made.

Rubbish. There has been regular re-infestation of rats to ULVA Island. The serious and proven bykill of non target spp is something you (and DoC ) wish to avoid discussing or even revealing to the wider public. Quite  apart from MacQuarrie and Ulva marine margin , have you conveniently forgotten the poisoned sea creatures in Hauraki Gulf after brodifacoum drops on those local islands and the discovery of birds killed  by weed control contractors which DoC monitoring failed to find or report? ! To try to justify the poisoning of Stewart Island on the pretext of success on small remote islands is neither reasonable or realistic. Quite frankly it reeks of the type of misleading hysteria often thrust on the public via manipulated mass media by extremist influences,  IMHO.
  

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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #34 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 8:55am
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I repeat, you agreed with the statement that you will never get complete eradication. I quoted the Antipodes island where they have had complete and utter eradication of the target species.. You have completely ignored or conviently forgotten about that and now add your bit of distratction in quoting Ulva island. Lets discuss Antipode Island and how that has been completely cleared of pests as you said it wasnt possible.

  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #35 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 9:58am
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huntnfish wrote on Jul 9th, 2018 at 7:56am:
Salmoner wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 10:00am:
There are NO other points to consider. The statement was made , "you will never get complete eradication". That statement has proven to be 100% incorrect. Pretty simple really, do you wish to debate that ?

The other information you wish to discuss is pure distraction from the incorrect statement that was made.

Rubbish. There has been regular re-infestation of rats to ULVA Island. The serious and proven bykill of non target spp is something you (and DoC ) wish to avoid discussing or even revealing to the wider public. Quite  apart from MacQuarrie and Ulva marine margin , have you conveniently forgotten the poisoned sea creatures in Hauraki Gulf after brodifacoum drops on those local islands and the discovery of birds killed  by weed control contractors which DoC monitoring failed to find or report? ! To try to justify the poisoning of Stewart Island on the pretext of success on small remote islands is neither reasonable or realistic. Quite frankly it reeks of the type of misleading hysteria often thrust on the public via manipulated mass media by extremist influences,  IMHO.


eradication is possible.
but reinfestation is near difficult to stop
Ulva island is a short distance from the main island, and is impossible to prevent. ditto boats cause reinfestation
but intensive trapping/monitoring can  get what reinvades, usually

If an area has a barrier (like an ocean) as a buffer, then eradication IS possible

I thought this wee discussion was about removal of ALL pests. This is possible

keeping them out is another,
even mainland island fenced sanctuaries cant keep them out

presumably, if all pests were eradicated from say Rakiura, then long as reintroduction is prevented, should stay pest free

manyislands have reinfestation problems
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #36 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 10:14am
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Quote:
EC wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 11:37pm:
I know of someone very well who is involved with the Goat killing thing,for DOC.
DOC at the top are quite pissed that the 1080 does not drop the goats as it does  the deer,,don't know if that applies to all DOC  bods or not.
My friend remarked that he and his culling mates were specifically told to shoot every deer they could also.Now whether or not that was only for a certain block,I didn't ask.
Thanks Marty fi dreaming that one  Grin




Quote:
The need for goat hunters was established when it was realised that goats could not be controlled using aerial 1080

as I said, goat shooting has been going on forever. and will continue
Marty is dreaming
If killing goats was a successful bykill of aerial 1080  then IMO that's a bloody good thing. sooner thyre got rid of the better

PS the IAD and NZFS were shooting goats from day one. Both attempted Successfully to target  deer by aerial 1080. and not successfully for good for goats. (except cut vege  poison with 1080 gel)

But that had no bearing on the decision to use foot hunters. it was a political decision not to use 1080


I hope yi not trying ti tell me anything about culling goats, 1080 gel and how successful 1080 was on deer etc,,are you?
I'm sure Marty was referring to DOC and their goat missions nowadays not the old cullers back in the day.
Smiley
  

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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #37 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 5:31pm
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Quote:
I hope yi not trying ti tell me anything about culling goats, 1080 gel and how successful 1080 was on deer etc,,are you?
I'm sure Marty was referring to DOC and their goat missions nowadays not the old cullers back in the day.


looks like you might need it, ED Smiley

You of all people know, that why goats are controlled by goats now, is for the same reasons as it was by the NZFS and IAD
Nothing has changed
marty doesn't know what he's talking about,
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #38 - Jul 9th, 2018 at 10:37pm
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Quote:
Quote:
I hope yi not trying ti tell me anything about culling goats, 1080 gel and how successful 1080 was on deer etc,,are you?
I'm sure Marty was referring to DOC and their goat missions nowadays not the old cullers back in the day.


looks like you might need it, ED Smiley

You of all people know, that why goats are controlled by goats now, is for the same reasons as it was by the NZFS and IAD
Nothing has changed
marty doesn't know what he's talking about,


Cheeky bastard,and  it's EC .....not ED.
Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #39 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 6:21am
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Quote:
EC wrote on Jul 8th, 2018 at 11:37pm:
I know of someone very well who is involved with the Goat killing thing,for DOC.
DOC at the top are quite pissed that the 1080 does not drop the goats as it does  the deer,,don't know if that applies to all DOC  bods or not.
My friend remarked that he and his culling mates were specifically told to shoot every deer they could also.Now whether or not that was only for a certain block,I didn't ask.
Thanks Marty fi dreaming that one  Grin




Quote:
The need for goat hunters was established when it was realised that goats could not be controlled using aerial 1080

as I said, goat shooting has been going on forever. and will continue
Marty is dreaming
If killing goats was a successful bykill of aerial 1080  then IMO that's a bloody good thing. sooner thyre got rid of the better

PS the IAD and NZFS were shooting goats from day one. Both attempted Successfully to target  deer by aerial 1080. and not successfully for good for goats. (except cut vege  poison with 1080 gel)

But that had no bearing on the decision to use foot hunters. it was a political decision not to use 1080


TH....On the one hand, you seem to agree with me that, before DOC was created, aerial 1080 was proved to kill deer effectively and was not as effective on goats, with the only effective way to kill goats with 1080 is to paint toxic 1080 gel on vegetation. And on the other hand, you seem to be saying that I don't know what I am talking about when I say that goats need to be controlled by hunting because aerial 1080 will not control goats.

The 1080 gel was seriously considered as a goat control method. It was rejected as it was too dangerous as anything, including humans, could be easily poisoned by simply walking past the 1080 painted vegetation and rubbing the 1080 gel onto exposed skin.

Goat hunters were only retained because they are the only option DOC has to control goats. This brings up another conflict in DOC's propaganda, in that, goat hunters would seem to be superhuman, when compared to possum trappers, as goat hunters are able to operate, very effectively, in the same rugged/remote/inaccessible places that are impossible for possum trappers to even consider setting traps in.
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #40 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 6:54am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 9th, 2018 at 8:55am:
I repeat, you agreed with the statement that you will never get complete eradication. I quoted the Antipodes island where they have had complete and utter eradication of the target species.. You have completely ignored or conviently forgotten about that and now add your bit of distratction in quoting Ulva island. Lets discuss Antipode Island and how that has been completely cleared of pests as you said it wasnt possible.



The thread is headed "Rakiura (Stewart Island)". There is only one person that is trying to use a totally unrelated island, Antipode Island, as an example of what could happen on Stewart Island, with the Antipode Island example not being relevant unless you are prepared to catch samples of individual species and then release them back after the aerial poisoning has killed all their mates.

Ulva Island is a very real discussion point as the rats are coming from Stewart Island and the same people, promoting aerial poisoning wherever they can, are also the same people that refused to maintain the trapping network, set up to stop reinvading rats from becoming established on Ulva Island after the initial eradication.

The only conclusion you can come to is that the people running the Ulva Island rat control programme is that they know Ulva Island will continue, in the absence of an effective trapping network, to be periodically overrun with rats and this situation will need regular applications of aerial applied poison.
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #41 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 7:30am
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I really want to say something else but being the polite bugger i am i will refrain.

SOMEONE SAID THAT YOU WILL NEVER HAVE COMPLETE ERADICATION... that is obviously bullshit as i have pointed out, what part of that dont you understand !
I obviously cant use Stewart Island as example of complete eradication as it hasnt been bloody tried on Stewart Island !!!!

Someone also said that how can you compare eradicating pests on a small offshore island to poisoning a big island like Stewart Island (WHICH I HAVE NEVER ADVOCATED and never would). Well there has been COMPLETE AND UTTER ERADICATION of pests on an island TWICE the size of Stewart Island !!! Are you aware of that ?

Yeah this is a thread about Stewart Island. Go back to your post  #23, you start your ramble on wolves.. the 6 or so times i have been on Stewart Island i have only heard wolves on ... let me think , oh yeah no occasions..
Oh and same post you mention goats, last time i was there i came across how many goats ?

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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #42 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 8:00am
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Salmoner wrote on Jul 10th, 2018 at 7:30am:
I really want to say something else but being the polite bugger i am i will refrain.

SOMEONE SAID THAT YOU WILL NEVER HAVE COMPLETE ERADICATION... that is obviously bullshit as i have pointed out, what part of that dont you understand !
I obviously cant use Stewart Island as example of complete eradication as it hasnt been bloody tried on Stewart Island !!!!

Someone also said that how can you compare eradicating pests on a small offshore island to poisoning a big island like Stewart Island (WHICH I HAVE NEVER ADVOCATED and never would). Well there has been COMPLETE AND UTTER ERADICATION of pests on an island TWICE the size of Stewart Island !!! Are you aware of that ?

Yeah this is a thread about Stewart Island. Go back to your post  #23, you start your ramble on wolves.. the 6 or so times i have been on Stewart Island i have only heard wolves on ... let me think , oh yeah no occasions..
Oh and same post you mention goats, last time i was there i came across how many goats ?

Glass house , stone throwers Roll Eyes Grin Grin


Thanks for your recommendation that other forum readers go back and read post #23, wolves, possums, possums as predators, 1080, deer cullers, government shooters, goat hunters, vegetation recovery, Internal Affairs, NZFS, etc all included and all at the same, very low, all inclusive price.

I'm not sure how they will judge your recent posts after reading the historical posts that you are commenting on.
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #43 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 8:15am
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TH....On the one hand, you seem to agree with me that, before DOC was created, aerial 1080 was proved to kill deer effectively and was not as effective on goats, with the only effective way to kill goats with 1080 is to paint toxic 1080 gel on vegetation. And on the other hand, you seem to be saying that I don't know what I am talking about when I say that goats need to be controlled by hunting because aerial 1080 will not control goats.

The 1080 gel was seriously considered as a goat control method. It was rejected as it was too dangerous as anything, including humans, could be easily poisoned by simply walking past the 1080 painted vegetation and rubbing the 1080 gel onto exposed skin.

Goat hunters were only retained because they are the only option DOC has to control goats. This brings up another conflict in DOC's propaganda, in that, goat hunters would seem to be superhuman, when compared to possum trappers, as goat hunters are able to operate, very effectively, in the same rugged/remote/inaccessible places that are impossible for possum trappers to even consider setting traps in.




Quote:
DOC has actually set the precedence with the continued use of goat hunters who are still doing what the government shooters, of old, used to do with the exception they are only targeting goats. The need for goat hunters was established when it was realised that goats could not be controlled using aerial 1080 and the only method of effective control was to use hunters.


Jeeze Marty. here we go again
Your statement implies the DOc set a precedence because they couldn't poison goats (and by implication, if the could, they would be poisoning goats)
That's just absolute rubbish
It was known way before DOC exsisted, and goats wouldn't take 1080 bait (apart from veg using 1080 gel)

DOC didn't set a precedence or invent a policy of having to shoot goats , it was known many years  befor.
But, the big poisoners of big game were the NZFS.   -aerial carrot and cut vege 1080 gel. (there was actually a successful 1080 gel poison operation on Stewart island to control whitetail deer. it was very successful I gather)

DOC never continued with the idea of aerial poisoning targeting deer

So FFS stay on the topic and stop coming up with  distractions
And I've never seen wolves chasing deer or anything else here.
And I don't think the deer cullers caused deer to shift somewhere else like wolves did. Spelling areas is a normal animal animal control practice. be it foot shooting, WARO . Has SFA to to with what wolves do Grin
And as for some story about wolves and the deer cullers, that's twaddle.

ps, if someone could invent a way to poison goats and exterminate them, it would be a bloody good idea.
  
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Re: Predator Free Rakiura (Stewart Island) - A step closer.
Reply #44 - Jul 10th, 2018 at 8:46am
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Quote:
TH....On the one hand, you seem to agree with me that, before DOC was created, aerial 1080 was proved to kill deer effectively and was not as effective on goats, with the only effective way to kill goats with 1080 is to paint toxic 1080 gel on vegetation. And on the other hand, you seem to be saying that I don't know what I am talking about when I say that goats need to be controlled by hunting because aerial 1080 will not control goats.

The 1080 gel was seriously considered as a goat control method. It was rejected as it was too dangerous as anything, including humans, could be easily poisoned by simply walking past the 1080 painted vegetation and rubbing the 1080 gel onto exposed skin.

Goat hunters were only retained because they are the only option DOC has to control goats. This brings up another conflict in DOC's propaganda, in that, goat hunters would seem to be superhuman, when compared to possum trappers, as goat hunters are able to operate, very effectively, in the same rugged/remote/inaccessible places that are impossible for possum trappers to even consider setting traps in.




Quote:
DOC has actually set the precedence with the continued use of goat hunters who are still doing what the government shooters, of old, used to do with the exception they are only targeting goats. The need for goat hunters was established when it was realised that goats could not be controlled using aerial 1080 and the only method of effective control was to use hunters.


Jeeze Marty. here we go again
Your statement implies the DOc set a precedence because they couldn't poison goats (and by implication, if the could, they would be poisoning goats)
That's just absolute rubbish
It was known way before DOC exsisted, and goats wouldn't take 1080 bait (apart from veg using 1080 gel)

DOC didn't set a precedence or invent a policy of having to shoot goats , it was known many years  befor.
But, the big poisoners of big game were the NZFS.   -aerial carrot and cut vege 1080 gel. (there was actually a successful 1080 gel poison operation on Stewart island to control whitetail deer. it was very successful I gather)

DOC never continued with the idea of aerial poisoning targeting deer

So FFS stay on the topic and stop coming up with  distractions
And I've never seen wolves chasing deer or anything else here.
And I don't think the deer cullers caused deer to shift somewhere else like wolves did. Spelling areas is a normal animal animal control practice. be it foot shooting, WARO . Has SFA to to with what wolves do Grin
And as for some story about wolves and the deer cullers, that's twaddle.

ps, if someone could invent a way to poison goats and exterminate them, it would be a bloody good idea.


TH...We are in agreement. The only reason why NZFS goat shooters were retained was because 1080 didn't kill goats.

NZFS stopped employing deer shooters as they thought they would be allowed to kill deer with 1080.

DOC has continued with the situation, inherited from NZFS, with the exception that DOC has not been able to follow on with the planned slaughter of deer, with 1080, on the scale that was planned and is still wanted by the extreme greenies.

I know that you have experience from the NZFS days. You will never convince me that you believe that the deer just stayed around, waiting to be shot, in the same catchment the hunters were operating, until some big-wig in Wellington pulled the hunters out and stopped the hunters eradicating the deer from that catchment.

We all know that didn't happen. The deer moved away from the hunters. The more often the deer were hunted the faster the deer moved away. This is why the same overall tallies were being recorded, year after year, after the initial decline in deer numbers.

This is also the reason why, in areas deer are actively hunted, the vegetation has recovered, even though the hunting effort/deer is the same as other less hunted areas where the deer are not forced to keep moving, onto new grazing, and the vegetation is degraded.
  
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