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gonehuntin
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to pluck or skin???
May 13th, 2018 at 8:46pm
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anyone here got a backpack plucker?  am tossing up if its worth getting 1 or not just wondering the pros and cons vs skinning.

im not to keen on lugging 15+kg all day long but skins get heavy after a while too what are peoples thoughts and opinons?

  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #1 - May 13th, 2018 at 9:13pm
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Hi mate, I assume your talking about possums ?
Ive got no advice being an Aussie, but Im interested in the process if youd care to share some info.
Shooting during the day on foot ? trapping, spotlighting ?
What sort of numbers due you usually get ?

Cheers
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #2 - May 14th, 2018 at 12:14pm
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Basically Bush is paying $115 at the moment if anybody missed the price update,chasing more skins as well but i dont know the prices.
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #3 - May 14th, 2018 at 4:05pm
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I don't quite understand your question - you talk about a power plucker, yet you say you are skinning.

Are you using cyanide ?
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #4 - May 14th, 2018 at 7:06pm
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SF90 wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 4:05pm:
I don't quite understand your question - you talk about a power plucker, yet you say you are skinning.

Are you using cyanide ?


yep mainly cyanide but I skin trapline aswell as its much quicker and I get terrible cramp after plucking just 2 or 3 coons (discovered this the day after I set 180 traps  Cry )

we are just skining and slyping the skins I guess I shouldve mentioned that in my 1st  post.
basicly I just want to know trade offs between back pack plucker I can take bush vs skinning and slype.   how quick do pluckers deal to a possum? and is the weight of plucker worth the hassle?  and are the back pack versions (mc iver) any good compared to the gruntier benchtop models?
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #5 - May 14th, 2018 at 7:08pm
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dribbler wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Basically Bush is paying $115 at the moment if anybody missed the price update,chasing more skins as well but i dont know the prices.


sweet the agent didnt think it was gunna go up this year, skins are crap here at the moment alota mating damage. should come right in another 4 or 5 weeks tho.
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #6 - May 14th, 2018 at 7:40pm
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Finnscout wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 9:13pm:
Hi mate, I assume your talking about possums ?
Ive got no advice being an Aussie, but Im interested in the process if youd care to share some info.
Shooting during the day on foot ? trapping, spotlighting ?
What sort of numbers due you usually get ?

Cheers


hi there, im relativly new to doing anything serious with possums only started a few months ago. we trap and poison depending on terrain and animal numbers. and also spotlight them while we shooting farms for petfood.

as far as numbers go if your trapping doc land ive had anywhere from 2 per hundred traps to 60 per hundred traps a night. if im on my own I aim for 120 traps and with 2 of us 180-240 traps but trapping sux as theyre so darn heavy to lug around the hills but far less hassle to get permission to trap then poison so we just run traps on doc land.

private land is best if it hasnt been slammed but even if it has weve found most are  lazy and just trap or poison where they can get a quad bike so we found we put a bit more effort in and walk it we do not to bad,  depending on how big of lines we do we get anywhere from 40-150 per line and probably more in some areas but yet to strike that,  we just doing it a couple days a week at the moment working around our other jobs and comitments but we just handlay cyanide on roots and stones with feedpaste at the moment and just work around the rain but will get setup with bait stations during winter.

someone else with more exp might beable to tell ya a bit more about it as I said im fairly new to it all and weve just fumbled our way through it so far as many are unhelpfull when they realise your guna give it a crack and compete with them.

  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #7 - May 14th, 2018 at 7:59pm
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gonehuntin wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 7:06pm:
yep mainly cyanide but I skin trapline aswell as its much quicker and I get terrible cramp after plucking just 2 or 3 coons (discovered this the day after I set 180 traps  Cry )


Gotcha - I was only running 80 to 100 traps for a 30 to 40% catch rate - and I was hand plucking those and taking the best skins after plucking for other purposes - and that was my main income.
I can understand 'hand cramps' - though have never suffered.

The bloke on the block next door was younger and stronger than me - he cyanided and trapped and had an engine plucker and said it dealt with warm and cold possums equally.
Have no idea what model he had - haven't seen him in years and I never saw that thing at work, but he did very well - ran long lines for a shitload more possums than I was catching.

I did get given 200 frozen skins and slyped them - and what a bastard of a job - lost about 30% of the fur because of attached membrane - very slow and finicky work and I wouldn't bother with doing that again.

If I was younger and doing it all again for the plucked market - I think I'd go with the portable mechanical plucker - and take the top skins if there was a decent market for them.
And I say that because skinning big numbers on a daily basis will kill your hands. 40 to 50 is a good number, 100 or more will turn your finger nails black and they'll fall out - and you're done and dusted right there.

I'd probably just run with cyanide which I did for the best part of my life, but that will depend on how much area you got and whether it's been poisoned and has shy possums.
If that's the case - you got no option other than to run with traps.

And remember - a mature green skin goes about 1 lb.

It's a trade-off, it all depends on your block.




  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #8 - May 14th, 2018 at 8:23pm
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sf90, I find slype is bloody brilliant just use a big skinning knife and score the fatty areas mainly armpits and belly, usually 3 quick swipes of the blade each side and its done.

All up time to skin, score , slype and wipe the fur off each possum probably owes me 2 - 2 1/2 mins its a very quick process and it takes me a similar time to handpluck and I get far more fur recovery by slyping.

mayby I skin different as I struggle to see how fingernails would suffer? Ive got a thumb and fingernail that are black and half hanging off after having them in a stoopid place when using a sledgehammer and ive done over 300 skins with them like that and it hasnt bothered them.

If I read that right you were plucking and then skinning plucked possums ? If so what the heck were you doing with plucked skins?


  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #9 - May 14th, 2018 at 8:56pm
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gonehuntin wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 8:23pm:
sf90, I find slype is bloody brilliant just use a big skinning knife and score the fatty areas mainly armpits and belly, usually 3 quick swipes of the blade each side and its done.

All up time to skin, score , slype and wipe the fur off each possum probably owes me 2 - 2 1/2 mins its a very quick process and it takes me a similar time to handpluck and I get far more fur recovery by slyping.

mayby I skin different as I struggle to see how fingernails would suffer? Ive got a thumb and fingernail that are black and half hanging off after having them in a stoopid place when using a sledgehammer and ive done over 300 skins with them like that and it hasnt bothered them.

If I read that right you were plucking and then skinning plucked possums ? If so what the heck were you doing with plucked skins?




Damn - learn something every day.

The 'slyping' I was talking about was using a release agent on a cold skin.

I was mostly sleeve skinning as that was quicker for me, but even open skinning would give my fingers hell, just that using your finger tips to start the 'peel' - and skinning a plucked skin is bloody hard, so I just skinned the furred possum and chucked the fur away.

Those skins I took were processed into parchment and flicked to Oz the States and Europe. A lot of work and effort doing that - and a huge amount developing markets, so after ten years of doing that I decided to do something else, so I bought a ................. and now I've decided to shut my trap because I think I'm close to doing it all again and don't really want competition - sorry mate.

And now I feel rotten  Embarrassed



  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #10 - May 14th, 2018 at 9:13pm
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yep same slyping stuff aswell, first 50 skins I done I never Scored and had same problem with a heap of fur staying attached. now I score before I paint the release agent on and everything comes off apart from a 5-10mm ring around the edge of skin, super efficient way of harvesting fur.

I sleeve skin too, I just grab a fist full of skin at the knee joint and roll/pop the legs out no need to go poking fingers in to get it started and dont even have to cut around feet either it just tears off at their anlkles as long as youve got a good enough fist of skin. I skin from back to front as I found doing front to back would munt my lil fingers tryn to hold onto the neck/cheeks.

and yep skinning a plucked possum is terrible the petfood buyer talked us into doing it for a bit more coin when we were trapping but totaly not worth the effort so now I just leave all coons in the bush, mayby if I had a good quad accessable block I would give it a go again as an adult carcass is worth 6-8 bucks, id drag them home as it would give wifey something to do Grin Grin Grin be pretty good pocket money for her tho

  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #11 - May 15th, 2018 at 12:33am
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I obviously had a bad teacher - skinned from front to back and cleared the tail last - and that's the way I always did it unless I got a 'special' which I 'open skinned'.

I had no idea a carcass was worth that much - never sold one, but I was shown a photo of skinned carcass's lined up in a Chinese meat store labelled 'NZ Bears'.
The company who exported them did everything you could think of with a possum - fur, skins, petfood, human consumption - everything through to the finished product with export markets already in place - they had their own trappers.
I wouldn't have been surprised to find they used the gut for tennis racquets and the brain pan for soup spoons.
Haven't heard anything of them for ages - don't even know if that operation exists now.

The thing I was doing was sideways to all that and it took a massive amount of effort to get rolling, then some years to get credibility - and then the tail started to wag the dog - so I took a break.

Was an interesting time though, I even had a lady come over from Sweden to take photos and details to put in a book, but I never got a copy so don't know if she did it.

All that was a while back now - I went back to the simple life - and now I think I've dug a rut I gotta crawl out of  Undecided

  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #12 - Jun 2nd, 2018 at 7:59am
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I skin rabbit because it's faster and easier.
I pluck chicken bacause it's hard to skin. However, skin is where the flavor is concentrated in!
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #13 - Jun 8th, 2018 at 8:53pm
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gonehuntin wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 7:40pm:
Finnscout wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 9:13pm:
Hi mate, I assume your talking about possums ?
Ive got no advice being an Aussie, but Im interested in the process if youd care to share some info.
Shooting during the day on foot ? trapping, spotlighting ?
What sort of numbers due you usually get ?

Cheers


hi there, im relativly new to doing anything serious with possums only started a few months ago. we trap and poison depending on terrain and animal numbers. and also spotlight them while we shooting farms for petfood.

as far as numbers go if your trapping doc land ive had anywhere from 2 per hundred traps to 60 per hundred traps a night. if im on my own I aim for 120 traps and with 2 of us 180-240 traps but trapping sux as theyre so darn heavy to lug around the hills but far less hassle to get permission to trap then poison so we just run traps on doc land.

private land is best if it hasnt been slammed but even if it has weve found most are lazy and just trap or poison where they can get a quad bike so we found we put a bit more effort in and walk it we do not to bad, depending on how big of lines we do we get anywhere from 40-150 per line and probably more in some areas but yet to strike that, we just doing it a couple days a week at the moment working around our other jobs and comitments but we just handlay cyanide on roots and stones with feedpaste at the moment and just work around the rain but will get setup with bait stations during winter.

someone else with more exp might beable to tell ya a bit more about it as I said im fairly new to it all and weve just fumbled our way through it so far as many are unhelpfull when they realise your guna give it a crack and compete with them.




Hi mate, thanks for the reply which I missed earlier.
Good luck with it, great that there is still a market unlike the fox fur industry.
Just bought a possum and merino benie, keeping my noggin warm.
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #14 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:28am
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If I running traps Id skin the good ones, Id check for bits of fur that have come out,windows etc and pluck the rest, also Id talk to your buyer and see what they want they may want certain type,size of skin, this will help you get more money off your line
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #15 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 11:47am
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fat ninja wrote on Jun 10th, 2018 at 10:28am:
If I running traps Id skin the good ones, Id check for bits of fur that have come out,windows etc and pluck the rest, also Id talk to your buyer and see what they want they may want certain type,size of skin, this will help you get more money off your line



yea skin buyer showed me what to look for but easiest way for me to tell is just to skin the things and look on the inside, havent done enough yet to get an idea what theyre like from lookin at them. 
moved to a new area about 5km from where I was, 70traps out yday and not 1 stinkn possum, was getn 50-80 % catch rate at last place so I guess the 1080 last year done its job, was interestn as the birdlife was also non existant but deer plentiful
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #16 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 12:03pm
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Yea it comes time, Ive found big females usually are good to skin, Id pluck all the old red neck bucks and small stuff, anything else is a case by case basis, do talk to your buyer and get an idea of what size/colour skins he after and skin those one, you can always slipe them afterwards
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #17 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 1:48pm
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yea currently slipe everything. I skin most trapped ones as well because I get terrible hand cramps handplucking (too many years milking cows  Cry )   Fat ninja have you used the portable pluckers before?  still yet to find anyone thats used 1 to get an idea if theyre worthwhile, just going off the lack of users me thinks they are no good?
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #18 - Jun 10th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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Na I havent if your on Facebook I can point to a couple of pages that has them pop up every now and then a few people use them even have a look on YouTube there a few videos on there
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #19 - Aug 9th, 2018 at 5:35pm
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Does anyone in southland have a plucker I could try out to see if I like em or not before I outlay $$$$.  Benchtop or backpack type it dosent matter just wanna get a feel of what theyre like etc.
Thanks in advance.

or alternatively if you like skinning and want a trailer load of coons dropped off to earn some beer money pm me lol  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #20 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:14am
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SF90 wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 12:33am:
I obviously had a bad teacher - skinned from front to back and cleared the tail last - and that's the way I always did it unless I got a 'special' which I 'open skinned'.

I had no idea a carcass was worth that much - never sold one, but I was shown a photo of skinned carcass's lined up in a Chinese meat store labelled 'NZ Bears'.
The company who exported them did everything you could think of with a possum - fur, skins, petfood, human consumption - everything through to the finished product with export markets already in place - they had their own trappers.
I wouldn't have been surprised to find they used the gut for tennis racquets and the brain pan for soup spoons.
Haven't heard anything of them for ages - don't even know if that operation exists now.

The thing I was doing was sideways to all that and it took a massive amount of effort to get rolling, then some years to get credibility - and then the tail started to wag the dog - so I took a break.

Was an interesting time though, I even had a lady come over from Sweden to take photos and details to put in a book, but I never got a copy so don't know if she did it.

All that was a while back now - I went back to the simple life - and now I think I've dug a rut I gotta crawl out of Undecided


I was one of those Kiwi-Bear trappers.

You could always tell when another trapper had not been able to contain the possum between releasing, from the leg-hold trap, and putting the live possum into the box because his pants legs were shredded, or even gone, and there were the obvious wounds of very angry possum's teeth and claws in the exposed legs. Of course, this rather embarrassing situation never, ever happened to me.

Kiwi bear was one of the Fletcher investments that went south when they hit hard times. They had invested in a whole lot of things including possum, deer, goat and kiwifruit farms and they got rid of the lot and went back to what they had knew.

The people that are buying your skins, today, are selling them for at least twice what they are paying you and up to 10 times depending on what Mink skins are selling for. The equation you should use, as to what your buyer is selling your 1st, 2nd and good 3rd grade skins for, at the Legend Fur Auction House in the US through private treaty, is around 40% of what the average mink price is. Go and look at the auction results and you will find no entries for NZ possum skins because all the NZ possum skins are being sold by private treaty as the sellers do not want you to know what your skins are selling for overseas.

gonehuntin, I've been where you are, and I thought I was shit-hot too. The likes of you and and Salmoner, that have just started out on your trapping journey, shouldn't be so hard to judge older trappers that have been where you are now.

We do know stuff that you have yet to learn and if you approach things right you can be taught things, very quickly, that will take you a whole lot longer if you decide to be the MAN that does everything his way.

I would also suggest that you, and you new hunting mates, do not get involved with any fancy ideas about hunting/trapping that has not already been done by a good trapper before, as you might find yourselves in the terrible situation of having to back down on ideas that you have promoted and can't back up.



  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #21 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 12:12pm
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will take that on board marty, and fyi im an extremely efficient learner and take everything I can on board as theres very good and very bad advice/ideas thrown around and I use a combination of other peoples methods to my advantage for a system that works for ME that is simple and makes the most efficient use of my time.

a way that works for me may or maynot work for you or sf90 and vice versa. theres more then 1 way that works and its about finding the 1 that works for you.  and as for the fancy ideas thing I have no intentions of doing so but if theres easy money sitting infront of me ill take it but there really is only an illusion of easy money as you know yourself anything involves some sort of hard work and seems to be a fair bit of blood and tears go into it aswell.
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #22 - Aug 17th, 2018 at 8:01am
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Marty Foote wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:14am:
SF90 wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 12:33am:
I obviously had a bad teacher - skinned from front to back and cleared the tail last - and that's the way I always did it unless I got a 'special' which I 'open skinned'.

I had no idea a carcass was worth that much - never sold one, but I was shown a photo of skinned carcass's lined up in a Chinese meat store labelled 'NZ Bears'.
The company who exported them did everything you could think of with a possum - fur, skins, petfood, human consumption - everything through to the finished product with export markets already in place - they had their own trappers.
I wouldn't have been surprised to find they used the gut for tennis racquets and the brain pan for soup spoons.
Haven't heard anything of them for ages - don't even know if that operation exists now.

The thing I was doing was sideways to all that and it took a massive amount of effort to get rolling, then some years to get credibility - and then the tail started to wag the dog - so I took a break.

Was an interesting time though, I even had a lady come over from Sweden to take photos and details to put in a book, but I never got a copy so don't know if she did it.

All that was a while back now - I went back to the simple life - and now I think I've dug a rut I gotta crawl out of Undecided


I was one of those Kiwi-Bear trappers.

You could always tell when another trapper had not been able to contain the possum between releasing, from the leg-hold trap, and putting the live possum into the box because his pants legs were shredded, or even gone, and there were the obvious wounds of very angry possum's teeth and claws in the exposed legs. Of course, this rather embarrassing situation never, ever happened to me.

Kiwi bear was one of the Fletcher investments that went south when they hit hard times. They had invested in a whole lot of things including possum, deer, goat and kiwifruit farms and they got rid of the lot and went back to what they had knew.

The people that are buying your skins, today, are selling them for at least twice what they are paying you and up to 10 times depending on what Mink skins are selling for. The equation you should use, as to what your buyer is selling your 1st, 2nd and good 3rd grade skins for, at the Legend Fur Auction House in the US through private treaty, is around 40% of what the average mink price is. Go and look at the auction results and you will find no entries for NZ possum skins because all the NZ possum skins are being sold by private treaty as the sellers do not want you to know what your skins are selling for overseas.

gonehuntin, I've been where you are, and I thought I was shit-hot too. The likes of you and and Salmoner, that have just started out on your trapping journey, shouldn't be so hard to judge older trappers that have been where you are now.

We do know stuff that you have yet to learn and if you approach things right you can be taught things, very quickly, that will take you a whole lot longer if you decide to be the MAN that does everything his way.

I would also suggest that you, and you new hunting mates, do not get involved with any fancy ideas about hunting/trapping that has not already been done by a good trapper before, as you might find yourselves in the terrible situation of having to back down on ideas that you have promoted and can't back up.





Eh ?  Cheesy Cheesy

You are correct i have just started out doing predator trapping.. bought my first Doc trap 20 years ago.. sold a few possum skins 40 odd years ago.
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #23 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 12:41am
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[/quote]

I was one of those Kiwi-Bear trappers.

You could always tell when another trapper had not been able to contain the possum between releasing, from the leg-hold trap, and putting the live possum into the box because his pants legs were shredded, or even gone, and there were the obvious wounds of very angry possum's teeth and claws in the exposed legs. Of course, this rather embarrassing situation never, ever happened to me.

Kiwi bear was one of the Fletcher investments that went south when they hit hard times. They had invested in a whole lot of things including possum, deer, goat and kiwifruit farms and they got rid of the lot and went back to what they had knew.

The people that are buying your skins, today, are selling them for at least twice what they are paying you and up to 10 times depending on what Mink skins are selling for. The equation you should use, as to what your buyer is selling your 1st, 2nd and good 3rd grade skins for, at the Legend Fur Auction House in the US through private treaty, is around 40% of what the average mink price is. Go and look at the auction results and you will find no entries for NZ possum skins because all the NZ possum skins are being sold by private treaty as the sellers do not want you to know what your skins are selling for overseas.
[/quote]

That was interesting - never knew that.

I never did the live capture thing - and I only recall being bitten by one possum.
Was thirteen when I caught my first one in a trap I scrounged from somewhere. Gave it a couple of dongs, then felt sorry for the poor bugger, so picked it up and gave it a cuddle.
Nek minute the bloody thing leaned down and wrapped his claws around my upper thigh and chewed a bloody big lump out. Still got that scar from near sixty years ago - looks like a milky white birthmark.
Have had a few run up my legs though, but never a really big one.
Happened last year, or the year before when a neighbour dropped one off in a bag - "Got a live one there mate." - then buggered off.
I picked up that bag and it felt very still, so I gave it a couple of pokes and got no reaction.
"Bloody Bob - taking the piss." so I upended it and tipped it on the ground - and that thing went straight up my leg - "Shit !"
I froze and so did he about mid thigh, then with a mighty leap he launched himself straight out and hit the ground running and I went inside for some sympathy from the missus.

Would get a lot dropped off here the neighbours had caught in Timm's traps, but one of the funniest 'drop off's' was watching a Nissan Bluebird lurching up my shitty driveway, bulldozing the centre hump whilst I was fiddling in the garage.
Came to a halt and a gardener bloke from up the road hopped out, trotted around the other side and opening the passenger door, hauled old man Whatmore out.
Whatmore went 23 stone and his gardener 18 and out the boot of the car he pulled out one of the biggest possums I'd ever seen.

"Member of the family - is it ?"
"I reckon that's a world record - that possum, got any scales ?"

So I got out my fish scales and that thing went close to fifteen pounds - then I had to look on the computer to see if it was a world record.
And it was close to being to being the biggest recorded possum.

And talking about Whatmore, he had a wife damned near as big and at the opening of the fishing season they were sitting on the back of their boat enjoying some wine with friends when she topple over the back in about twelve feet of water.
No floatation in that woman at all, which I found interesting - went straight to the bottom and sat there whilst the blokes looking over waited for her self inflating jacket to pop.
Nothing - so, in they went and had almost got to her when it did inflate and she shot past them trailing a stream of bubbles whilst having a heart attack in the process.

Didn't kill her that heart attack, but it must have created a lot of angst because the doctor told her she had to attack her food with less vigour.

They went back to England after that and I never saw them again because he got so fat no airline would allow him on a plane.
Shame really 'cos their gardener would arrive with a written invitation for drinks at four or five or whatever random hour they chose - then wait while I had to write a reply as to whether I was coming or not.

"Why don't you just bloody phone ?"
"Can't do that old chap, wouldn't be proper."

Then I'd get thoroughly pissed and puke in the gardener's Bluebird on the way home.




  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #24 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 8:25am
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I borrowed a mates backpack plucker years back and I couldn't get the hang of it. It would rip the gut open on every coon I tried. Hell of a thing to try and duck under branches while also carrying a bag of fur and bag with the essentials, hammer, flour and nails etc.
I wouldn't buy one at all.
I would skin the A grades buy using the sleeve method and the misses would tan them and make cushions to sell at $170 a pop and some she made into inner soles for your boots to keep you feet warm in winter which she sold for $45.
The only part of the carcass I ever took out was the back legs to mix the meat with Pukes to make breakfast sausages if I could be bothered. I wanted to make the most of each possum due to the effort that we all know it takes.
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #25 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 3:46pm
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yea I could imagine goin through scrub wouldnt be the funnest with one.  also I dont think its worth the hassle to setup just to do a few coons so would need to bait station or carry the bastards untill theres enough to do.

my mate just got a mciver benchtop plucker and it does a bloody good job so will prob get one of those for next winter and just mount it to my trailer and cart them all back with the quad.
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #26 - Sep 3rd, 2018 at 6:29pm
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BB $125 k
  
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Re: to pluck or skin???
Reply #27 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 8:27pm
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dribbler wrote on Sep 3rd, 2018 at 6:29pm:
BB $125 k


$5 kg extra if u take in 50+kg at a time  Smiley
  
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