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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018 (Read 8393 times)
Tararua Hunter
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #75 - May 15th, 2018 at 5:14pm
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put in a tender for ground control of the Tararua Project kaka area marty. let us know your tender price
  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #76 - May 15th, 2018 at 5:31pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 5:14pm:
put in a tender for ground control of the Tararua Project kaka area marty. let us know your tender price


How about we leave it as it stands?

I am sure you know who I am talking to and what areas are being considered, by trappers and forest managers, as suitable for the initial trapping proposals to be tendered for.

It is unbecoming of you to try to force specific information when you know that neither party is prepared to release information while negotiations are underway.

LNIRDF will be invited to contribute when the basic contract principles have been established and before the general public consultation step is taken.
  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #77 - May 15th, 2018 at 5:49pm
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There are farmers that do not have the same rabbit problem that others have. These farmers understand that the rabbit diseases and 1080 are only a short term solution and that there is a need to follow up with permanent population management by rabbit hunters that use a variety of methods of control.

Marty, thats my business, doing about 30000 hectares at the moment as a lone "trapper" with a heap of help and good will from the cockys, and some good shooters from this forum, and I can assure you that whenever we think things are under control that is the moment when such an arrogant thought will come back and bite you on the bum. There is always somewhere that a fire needs put out. Without the occaisonal 1080 op, (we havnt had one in close to 10 years now, thanks to targeted Pindone applications in small selected areas, our properties would look pretty much like the day we started. 

We use all tools in the toolbox, from shooting both conventional and thermal, poisening, doging and shotgunning, to magtoxing, and the much touted virus. The only thing we have not used is a bulldozer.

Yes there is a lower overall rabbit/wallaby/ density on  what we manage, but one of the problems is the neigbours that do less and impregnate our good cotrolled areas from their side or the fence, and the other is that even with low numbers it only take one pregnant pest and noone doing anything in the area for 6 months or more and away it goes again.

That is just the same principle as being out there in the bush and cleaning out an area pretty good and then going somewhere else for a few months to controll numbers. By the time you get back to do the original area again the number are way up. You know that as well as I.

The problem is the vastness and the logistics of doing everything at once or within a very short timeframe. Rabbiters believe that to have control over any given area, it must be revisited every 3 weeks. If it isnt then your going backwards.

Reminds me of a bloke standing on the beach with a big broom trying to hold back the tide.

  

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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #78 - May 15th, 2018 at 6:38pm
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headcase wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 5:49pm:
There are farmers that do not have the same rabbit problem that others have. These farmers understand that the rabbit diseases and 1080 are only a short term solution and that there is a need to follow up with permanent population management by rabbit hunters that use a variety of methods of control.

Marty, thats my business, doing about 30000 hectares at the moment as a lone "trapper" with a heap of help and good will from the cockys, and some good shooters from this forum, and I can assure you that whenever we think things are under control that is the moment when such an arrogant thought will come back and bite you on the bum. There is always somewhere that a fire needs put out. Without the occaisonal 1080 op, (we havnt had one in close to 10 years now, thanks to targeted Pindone applications in small selected areas, our properties would look pretty much like the day we started. 

We use all tools in the toolbox, from shooting both conventional and thermal, poisening, doging and shotgunning, to magtoxing, and the much touted virus. The only thing we have not used is a bulldozer.

Yes there is a lower overall rabbit/wallaby/ density on  what we manage, but one of the problems is the neigbours that do less and impregnate our good cotrolled areas from their side or the fence, and the other is that even with low numbers it only take one pregnant pest and noone doing anything in the area for 6 months or more and away it goes again.

That is just the same principle as being out there in the bush and cleaning out an area pretty good and then going somewhere else for a few months to controll numbers. By the time you get back to do the original area again the number are way up. You know that as well as I.

The problem is the vastness and the logistics of doing everything at once or within a very short timeframe.

Reminds me of a bloke standing on the beach with a big broom trying to hold back the tide.



You are so very right Headcase.

I had actually written a paragraph about the best solution, for rabbits, happened on large areas where all the neighbours agreed. I took it out as it didn't apply to the large areas that aerial 1080 is targeting.

I can give you an example of possum control, that has not been effective, in a 12,000 ha block of bush in Northland where the blocks were offered up, for tender, as individual 500 ha blocks. You can imagine what happened with the 24 odd, naive, individual possum trappers refusing to work together to ensure the job was done as a whole. DOC has used this example as a failure for trappers to perform when the block should have been tendered as one contract with the successful contractor working with 3-4 other good trappers.

I also agree with you that the limiting factor is not our individual ability to do the work it is the lack of good people to work along side us. Encourage young people to be like us and you increase the area that can be controlled effectively. Discourage young people to be like us and you end up where we are now.

Based upon what aerial 1080 costs, OSPRI and DOC should be offering far more than the average wage to young people that are prepared to do what you and I have done. Instead, they offer just above the minimum wage and expect the same results you and I can deliver and then claim that ground control is a waste of time and money. Hence, the reason why I refuse to sign any input contracts and will only sign output contracts so that I can offer really good money to those young people who are prepared to work and think like you and I have done.
  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #79 - May 15th, 2018 at 6:49pm
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Some good points made. Ive often thought that a good overall coordination would help matters somewhat. A chain of command with experieced realistic management. 

I applaud your efforts to offer oppurtunities to young employees  to be paid a good wages for service that must go beyond the norms of what we today consider a normal lifestyle.

The money is everything in this case because if you offer your services  too cheaply you will run into problems and fail to reach the objectives. You will carry the negative consequences. Better to let someone else fail because of lack of funding/resources.

Falure to reach the objective is in any case a lose lose scenario for all parties, and our enviroment.

The question remains, what is required to get the job done.







  

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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #80 - May 16th, 2018 at 10:11am
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Marty Foote wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:27pm:
there has been at least one rat trapping operation that is thought to have eradicated rats from an island where trapping had been deemed impossible until it was done.


That would be really interesting to read about. Any chance this time you could give a reference or link?
  

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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #81 - May 17th, 2018 at 2:43pm
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Another $182m over next 4 years for DOC in the budget today.
  

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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #82 - May 17th, 2018 at 5:37pm
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The money will largely go to predator control and biodiversity initiatives, although a decent chunk will be spent helping maintain parks and paths.

The largest chunk of funding is $81.6m for landscape-scale predator control, enabling DOC to undertake sustained control over 1.8 million hectares - about the size of Auckland and Northland combined.


= aerial poison control

  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #83 - May 17th, 2018 at 7:49pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on May 17th, 2018 at 5:37pm:
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The money will largely go to predator control and biodiversity initiatives, although a decent chunk will be spent helping maintain parks and paths.

The largest chunk of funding is $81.6m for landscape-scale predator control, enabling DOC to undertake sustained control over 1.8 million hectares - about the size of Auckland and Northland combined.


= aerial poison control



Yes, and broadly consistent with what you would expect of a Minister who whakapapa's to F&B ...... strong focus on biodiversity works .......
  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #84 - May 18th, 2018 at 6:04pm
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Oscar wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:11am:
Marty Foote wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:27pm:
there has been at least one rat trapping operation that is thought to have eradicated rats from an island where trapping had been deemed impossible until it was done.


That would be really interesting to read about. Any chance this time you could give a reference or link?


I'll have a look for a link. I have been sent copies of the report, however, I don't know if they have general internet links.

It was one of the government funded self-setting trap trials and eradicated the rats from the island. It happened at the same time that other rat trapping trials were happening in Fiordland which also achieved 0% rat monitoring.

As these operations were government funded the reports should be available online. You are the first person that has asked me for the reports as everyone I have dealt with, inside and outside DOC, know of the results and the results have been accepted as fact.
  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #85 - May 18th, 2018 at 6:46pm
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Look forward to seeing them, cheers.
  

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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #86 - May 18th, 2018 at 7:10pm
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Marty Foote wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 6:04pm:
Oscar wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:11am:
Marty Foote wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:27pm:
there has been at least one rat trapping operation that is thought to have eradicated rats from an island where trapping had been deemed impossible until it was done.


That would be really interesting to read about. Any chance this time you could give a reference or link?


I'll have a look for a link. I have been sent copies of the report, however, I don't know if they have general internet links.

It was one of the government funded self-setting trap trials and eradicated the rats from the island. It happened at the same time that other rat trapping trials were happening in Fiordland which also achieved 0% rat monitoring.

As these operations were government funded the reports should be available online. You are the first person that has asked me for the reports as everyone I have dealt with, inside and outside DOC, know of the results and the results have been accepted as fact.


what island, marty. knowing that might help find the reports.

BTW I don't think the feasibility of ground based eradication is the issue. we know its possible, in most circumstances
eg kapiti was eradicated by ground control , with support from aerial 1080 in the coastal bluffs

issue here is, can ground based control meet the targets for the Battle for Birds projectsm on the scale propposed
  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #87 - May 18th, 2018 at 9:17pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 7:10pm:
Marty Foote wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 6:04pm:
Oscar wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:11am:
Marty Foote wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:27pm:
there has been at least one rat trapping operation that is thought to have eradicated rats from an island where trapping had been deemed impossible until it was done.


That would be really interesting to read about. Any chance this time you could give a reference or link?


I'll have a look for a link. I have been sent copies of the report, however, I don't know if they have general internet links.

It was one of the government funded self-setting trap trials and eradicated the rats from the island. It happened at the same time that other rat trapping trials were happening in Fiordland which also achieved 0% rat monitoring.

As these operations were government funded the reports should be available online. You are the first person that has asked me for the reports as everyone I have dealt with, inside and outside DOC, know of the results and the results have been accepted as fact.


what island, marty. knowing that might help find the reports.

BTW I don't think the feasibility of ground based eradication is the issue. we know its possible, in most circumstances
eg kapiti was eradicated by ground control , with support from aerial 1080 in the coastal bluffs

issue here is, can ground based control meet the targets for the Battle for Birds projectsm on the scale propposed


Kapiti was so close to eradication, by trappers only, it wasn't funny...DOC then pulled the funding for 10 years, which allowed the numbers to build up, DOC then dropped 1080 and the trappers cleaned up what 1080 had left behind and then DOC claimed that 1080 was the main ingredient in the eradication process.

Battle for Our Birds is not project orientated, it is activity orientated. This is the reason why some of DOC's most gifted scientists are urging a thinking change from "activity orientation", that relies on doing stuff in the short term, to "project orientation", that looks at the best solutions to achieve a realistic long term outcome.

Predator Free is an aspirational goal, at best, and a lousy lie, to protect past lies, at worst. Why are DOC's best and brightest arguing, behind the scenes, to be allowed to work with experienced trappers to find the best long term solutions?

Trappers can only work over the long term in the type of, long term, low wild animal density environment that DOC says it wants to work in.

DOC says that it is working in a, long term, low wild animal density environment and then conducts wild animal control operations that, DOC admits, only lower the wild animals for a few months, over the bird nesting season, and then DOC awaits further instructions, in the form of the next Ministerial operational cheque payment, before DOC can plan the next, short term, "activity" that is supposed to prove that the long term "aspirational eradication/predator free goal" is possible.
  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #88 - May 18th, 2018 at 9:51pm
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Marty Foote wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 9:17pm:
Tararua Hunter wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 7:10pm:
Marty Foote wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 6:04pm:
Oscar wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:11am:
Marty Foote wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:27pm:
there has been at least one rat trapping operation that is thought to have eradicated rats from an island where trapping had been deemed impossible until it was done.


That would be really interesting to read about. Any chance this time you could give a reference or link?


I'll have a look for a link. I have been sent copies of the report, however, I don't know if they have general internet links.

It was one of the government funded self-setting trap trials and eradicated the rats from the island. It happened at the same time that other rat trapping trials were happening in Fiordland which also achieved 0% rat monitoring.

As these operations were government funded the reports should be available online. You are the first person that has asked me for the reports as everyone I have dealt with, inside and outside DOC, know of the results and the results have been accepted as fact.


what island, marty. knowing that might help find the reports.

BTW I don't think the feasibility of ground based eradication is the issue. we know its possible, in most circumstances
eg kapiti was eradicated by ground control , with support from aerial 1080 in the coastal bluffs

issue here is, can ground based control meet the targets for the Battle for Birds projectsm on the scale propposed


Kapiti was so close to eradication, by trappers only, it wasn't funny...DOC then pulled the funding for 10 years, which allowed the numbers to build up, DOC then dropped 1080 and the trappers cleaned up what 1080 had left behind and then DOC claimed that 1080 was the main ingredient in the eradication process.

Battle for Our Birds is not project orientated, it is activity orientated. This is the reason why some of DOC's most gifted scientists are urging a thinking change from "activity orientation", that relies on doing stuff in the short term, to "project orientation", that looks at the best solutions to achieve a realistic long term outcome.

Predator Free is an aspirational goal, at best, and a lousy lie, to protect past lies, at worst. Why are DOC's best and brightest arguing, behind the scenes, to be allowed to work with experienced trappers to find the best long term solutions?

Trappers can only work over the long term in the type of, long term, low wild animal density environment that DOC says it wants to work in.

DOC says that it is working in a, long term, low wild animal density environment and then conducts wild animal control operations that, DOC admits, only lower the wild animals for a few months, over the bird nesting season, and then DOC awaits further instructions, in the form of the next Ministerial operational cheque payment, before DOC can plan the next, short term, "activity" that is supposed to prove that the long term "aspirational eradication/predator free goal" is possible.


Brodifacoum ?
  
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Re: Big increase in predator control in Budget 2018
Reply #89 - May 18th, 2018 at 10:15pm
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Salmoner wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 9:51pm:
Marty Foote wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 9:17pm:
Tararua Hunter wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 7:10pm:
Marty Foote wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 6:04pm:
Oscar wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:11am:
Marty Foote wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 2:27pm:
there has been at least one rat trapping operation that is thought to have eradicated rats from an island where trapping had been deemed impossible until it was done.


That would be really interesting to read about. Any chance this time you could give a reference or link?


I'll have a look for a link. I have been sent copies of the report, however, I don't know if they have general internet links.

It was one of the government funded self-setting trap trials and eradicated the rats from the island. It happened at the same time that other rat trapping trials were happening in Fiordland which also achieved 0% rat monitoring.

As these operations were government funded the reports should be available online. You are the first person that has asked me for the reports as everyone I have dealt with, inside and outside DOC, know of the results and the results have been accepted as fact.


what island, marty. knowing that might help find the reports.

BTW I don't think the feasibility of ground based eradication is the issue. we know its possible, in most circumstances
eg kapiti was eradicated by ground control , with support from aerial 1080 in the coastal bluffs

issue here is, can ground based control meet the targets for the Battle for Birds projectsm on the scale propposed


Kapiti was so close to eradication, by trappers only, it wasn't funny...DOC then pulled the funding for 10 years, which allowed the numbers to build up, DOC then dropped 1080 and the trappers cleaned up what 1080 had left behind and then DOC claimed that 1080 was the main ingredient in the eradication process.

Battle for Our Birds is not project orientated, it is activity orientated. This is the reason why some of DOC's most gifted scientists are urging a thinking change from "activity orientation", that relies on doing stuff in the short term, to "project orientation", that looks at the best solutions to achieve a realistic long term outcome.

Predator Free is an aspirational goal, at best, and a lousy lie, to protect past lies, at worst. Why are DOC's best and brightest arguing, behind the scenes, to be allowed to work with experienced trappers to find the best long term solutions?

Trappers can only work over the long term in the type of, long term, low wild animal density environment that DOC says it wants to work in.

DOC says that it is working in a, long term, low wild animal density environment and then conducts wild animal control operations that, DOC admits, only lower the wild animals for a few months, over the bird nesting season, and then DOC awaits further instructions, in the form of the next Ministerial operational cheque payment, before DOC can plan the next, short term, "activity" that is supposed to prove that the long term "aspirational eradication/predator free goal" is possible.


Brodifacoum ?


No. Traps were the mainstay. If brodifacoum was used, it was used in a small way and at the instructions of DOC and was not supported by the trappers (You must have heard that DOC knew, from scientific studies as far back as then, that 10% of a poison naive possum population will not eat a novel food item presented to them).

What the trappers had worked out, 10 years earlier, was the animals living on the bluffs needed to come off the bluffs to feed during certain weather conditions and times of the year. The trappers, being a reasonably intelligent species generally (or at least sometimes, when it really counts), had set up their trap-lines to catch the last animals coming off the bluffs when DOC pulled the funding. The trappers went back, and did the same thing, after the 1080 drop as the 1080 didn't kill all the bluff dwelling animals, as was supposed to happen, and has been claimed did happen by the DOC propaganda machine.
  
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