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Normal Topic Aus Heli Culling discussion. (Read 1446 times)
Rees
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Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:40pm
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Gday Kiwis, some of you wont give a shit because its Not your Land but others may have some experience or opinion to put forth after I try to explain whats happening down here..

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=...

Similar to New Zealand , The National Parks crew seem to think the Heli copter is going to be the Answer to the high yet not so high deer numbers in the High country--
ill agree to a population explosion down below 1000m or behind the Farm land in the foot hills..........


What concerns most of Us is that US Recreational Hunters are not even getting a look in to any of these "Culls" or to the Point these governing bodies are not letting us anywhere near these "Red Zones" / No huntiner permitted areas to lower Said deer problems.............

in the high country is it Mosses and Grasses being damaged by Horse and Deer.... the head waters of springs getting muddy etc.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=...



A lot of us are aware of the Cost of funding a Helicopter an a handful of "pros" to shoot a Couple of Deer,its going to be outrageous and a huge waste of time.................................... our terrain simply isn't like your open tops.

A lot of discussion been going on about this and that, Let us in, Let hound hunting into the Parks bla bla


What I'm a bit worried about it they will attempt to Cull a dozen deer then say its not Worth the price or the Numbers culled... ALL of which the public will never know.
but do they then TRY to turn to 1080 poisons Such as NZ has.........

half of the "gurus" in the pen pushing areas are Kiwis , coincidently.


So what would be some ways to go about Getting hunters back on top of the Kill chain, ?

would like to hear some discussion whch may help us Aussies become to solution to the 'deer problem' in unpermitted huntng areas.


a few discussion over on hilldog safari fb page include 'Boycotting" our GMA hunting permit Fees............
perhaps with 46,000 members , if majority don't pay then what will this mean...will they listen?

most Want Hound Hunting opened up into the Parks -  a lot of hound hunters fail to mention of just how may dogs get lost each year- I know this happens so don't tell me it doesn't- ive seen it.

many stalkers want a go up in these effected Areas......
Parks Victoria-  want to do it on their own at huge epxenses.

link to a Note from Hilldog safari- worthy of a read froma NZ persons view
https://www.facebook.com/notes/hilldog-safaris/the-golden-era/1596302610415662/

Rees
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #1 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:16pm
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what do you guys call hound hunting? Pointer type dogs or actually dogging them like pigs (I dont care either way but lots of "ethical" hunters on here have a problem with dogging)

With how strict aussie is with 1080 I would say its a longshot that they would drop for deer, thats not to say it wont happen but alot less chance then here and far bigger native population over the that would probably eat the cereal baits.

you need to address the problem of how they came to high population 1st or 5 years down the track same thing will happen. is it access (lack Of it)  Drop in hunter numbers , hunting ethics/ norms eg refuse to shoot does or refuse to Cull as only want a good head?

Id let the choppers go for it and hope for the best. failing that push for a good professional  ground hunting crew to go in and clean up mayby With well trained deer dogs (not weekend warriors or rec hunters but actual profesional cullers)
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #2 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:24pm
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gonehuntin wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:16pm:
what do you guys call hound hunting? Pointer type dogs or actually dogging them like pigs (I dont care either way but lots of "ethical" hunters on here have a problem with dogging)



Hi mate- Hound hunting is basically a Dozen Blokes, a Dozen Dogs, Chase and Bail the Deer- or shoot the deer as they Run out of systems with hunters sitting near tracks or in saddles etc.................

not everyones cup of tea. certainly not mine however i touch on it that hound hunting does take numbers of deer from localised areas!
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #3 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:27pm
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gonehuntin wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:16pm:
Id let the choppers go for it and hope for the best. failing that push for a good professional  ground hunting crew to go in and clean up mayby With well trained deer dogs (not weekend warriors or rec hunters but actual profesional cullers)

the last time Professional hunters were called in FROM NZ coincidently, to Shoot a coupleof Goats it cost around $70,000 ...........
We dont want Self proclaimed PROS from organisations such as ADA to be hand picked in a Boiys club type 'Cull' ,  which has happened late last year where the total numbers of Deer CULLED were LESS than 10.  an a more recenty trial of CULLING with spotlight proved to Single numbers again.

We have 46,000 licensed deer hunters taking on Average 100,000 Sambar a year...... these numbers are largely mis leading due to not asking everyone and not taking any of the illegally takin animals in the tally....

to boot WE pay for these permits to kill the Deer..........  Reading as no COST to the government.

those numbers cannot be ruled out or over looked, But Common sense is one lost thing in Australia.
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #4 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:32pm
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understand the frustration at the so called professionals that get picked, happens here too its usually a higher up doc employees family etc and ends up a rort instead of getting in the meat hawks that do it for a living.

the dog teams sound like the most effective if the chopper fails.
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #5 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:33pm
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gonehuntin wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:16pm:
you need to address the problem of how they came to high population 1st or 5 years down the track same thing will happen. is it access (lack Of it)  Drop in hunter numbers , hunting ethics/ norms eg refuse to shoot does or refuse to Cull as only want a good head?

)


It is the fact that Everyone is hunting for Horns.....  Back packers will not Shoot a Hind,
Kids will not shoot a Hind but 18 inches of Antler You beautyyy

"experts" hiking in back country and not even shooting one Hind an walking out Empty handed.

Spotlighters on private land, suppose to be doing farmers Favours-- aim at only Stags......

this happens on a huge account- Low lying country is a plethora of Sambar deer and Hinds in General.

I want to get everyones mind set to target Hinds for 5 years hard out...... Even if it FLAMESUIT ON- Means Killing the Deer and leaving it lay behind the Property...........
Wacking a Hind on yer way in to Back packing, take the backstraps for camp meat. ATleast You did one good thing for Our Deer.


I think No one really gives as much f**k about the Deer as a lot of Us others.

this is the hard part.

High country lacks a lot of Big stags because the Torches get driven around most Week nights and anything under 26 is Left, anything over on the Hoof looks decent and gets shot.

  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #6 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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Rees wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:33pm:
gonehuntin wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:16pm:
you need to address the problem of how they came to high population 1st or 5 years down the track same thing will happen. is it access (lack Of it)  Drop in hunter numbers , hunting ethics/ norms eg refuse to shoot does or refuse to Cull as only want a good head?

)


It is the fact that Everyone is hunting for Horns.....  Back packers will not Shoot a Hind,
Kids will not shoot a Hind but 18 inches of Antler You beautyyy

"experts" hiking in back country and not even shooting one Hind an walking out Empty handed.

Spotlighters on private land, suppose to be doing farmers Favours-- aim at only Stags......

this happens on a huge account- Low lying country is a plethora of Sambar deer and Hinds in General.

I want to get everyones mind set to target Hinds for 5 years hard out...... Even if it FLAMESUIT ON- Means Killing the Deer and leaving it lay behind the Property...........
Wacking a Hind on yer way in to Back packing, take the backstraps for camp meat. ATleast You did one good thing for Our Deer.


I think No one really gives as much f**k about the Deer as a lot of Us others.

this is the hard part.

High country lacks a lot of Big stags because the Torches get driven around most Week nights and anything under 26 is Left, anything over on the Hoof looks decent and gets shot.


seems to be the guts of it.
no different to nz really.
same result.
shooting 60 percent stags versus 40 hinds is about what occurs here, as I have read
as a deer population management tool, shooting the stags is a waste of time. and its stuffing up the potential for good quality stags

so unless the authorities can be shown that rec hunters do the job (which seemingly they haven't), then it seems a hard argument  to push

same here. Deer numbers are now bit higher (and more visible out in the open) and rec hunters haven't clicked that its government intervention (or commercial) waiting to happen

and here, its seemingly impossible to convince government that hunters can reduce the populations. (not helped by a govt wanting to prop up shaky commercial helicopter deer recovery business's)

have you requested from the government or whoever, just what the population increases really are (what data do they have), and what are the impacts on flora and fauna?

Hunters  should stop thinking theyre "managing" the deer population by leaving hinds and realize that they need to shoot twice as many females as males. 

seems access in Aus would be easier than our high country that few hunters get into and your argument for rec hunter control should be better
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #7 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 6:48am
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Like anywhere recreational hunters cannot control numbers as they are too busy look for that once in a lifetime trophy or been brain washed to only shoot stags. Get rid of breeding stock and leave the stags that's where it's at.. Long and short of it recommended hunters have no chance of controlling numbers

For me if it's brown it's down, don't care if there could have been a trophy around the corner lol

Hamish
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #8 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 8:05am
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There is quite a simple concept that most fail to grasp and it is a way all hunters can understand and contribute to managing their herds.

In almost all game animal herds to keep a static population a third of the herd must be removed annually.

Some will argue it all depends on what is taken etc. etc. but this basic proportion still holds true unless the numbers of males taken is unusually high.  Sound familiar?  In all herds except those with high reproductive rates(eg.Whitetailed Deer) or very low reproductive rates a third taken will give a sustained control.  Of course the tricky bit is deciding if the right number have been taken because usually we can't get a decent handle on the real population numbers just localised densities but still its a good guide and very saleable to hunters and conservationists.
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #9 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 9:40am
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What is really happening
Parks are running a three year trial on controling deer in the High Plains using all avalliable method except poison to stop or at least mimise the damage deer are doing by wallowing in the fragile peat bogs. As most of you are aware in apline eviroment damage takes a long time to repair.
It is in nation park with high visitor numbers and closed to all forms of hunting.
Professional ground shooters are doing several control area
ADA and SSAA members who have done a training course are doing sveral other areas
Heli will be doing an area but parks are not expecting that to be cost effective and a hound team will also be trialled
Game cameras have been placed through out the park on a grid pattern to moniter deer numbers and movement and will be checked again this April when the triall ends and then all data collated to try and determine most effective and most cost effective controll measures
This is all happening in some areas that are closed to stalking and some that are not
The whole program is not as evil as Rees thinks it to be and he could be involved in if he went through the right channels
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #10 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 11:42am
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Well said Ackley. Rees doesn't have a good handle of the scene that he is describing while you do.

Sambar numbers in eastern Victoria are very high at present probably as a result of the recent massive bushfires that have provided ideal feeding and breeding conditions.

There are concerns in a number of quarters about this and Parks Victoria have been trialling culling by volunteers and ground-based professional pest operators over the past couple of years to 'protect' moss beds in parts of the Alpine National Park (Plan A).

It was always suspected by those in the scene that Plan B would be helicopter shooting in localised areas to see whether it was cost effective in protecting moss beds. Plan C may exist but what that may be we don't know, possibly poisons.

Helicopter shooting has never been tried for sambar in Victoria and given the limited areas of open alpine forest and a lack of extensive slips and river flats it is suspected that helicopters may not be terribly effective and will be costly to operate. I guess that we will have to wait and see.

The Australian Deer Association is demanding that any chopper based culling be monitored to ensure that the kill is accurately recorded and that there are no animal welfare issues.

In the longer term it is hoped that as the bush recovers deer numbers will drop away as the feed quality deteriorates. A lack of culling of hinds is not the problem - the latest analysis says that the take of sambar is 52% hinds and 48% stags.

Cheers
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #11 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 2:54pm
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What's being done to control the brumby numbers?
I toured through the high country in may last year and the damage from them and their visibility in numbers seems like a very bad problem.
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #12 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 4:07pm
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Dogwood wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 11:42am:
Well said Ackley. Rees doesn't have a good handle of the scene that he is describing while you do.

Sambar numbers in eastern Victoria are very high at present probably as a result of the recent massive bushfires that have provided ideal feeding and breeding conditions.

There are concerns in a number of quarters about this and Parks Victoria have been trialling culling by volunteers and ground-based professional pest operators over the past couple of years to 'protect' moss beds in parts of the Alpine National Park (Plan A).

It was always suspected by those in the scene that Plan B would be helicopter shooting in localised areas to see whether it was cost effective in protecting moss beds. Plan C may exist but what that may be we don't know, possibly poisons.

Helicopter shooting has never been tried for sambar in Victoria and given the limited areas of open alpine forest and a lack of extensive slips and river flats it is suspected that helicopters may not be terribly effective and will be costly to operate. I guess that we will have to wait and see.

The Australian Deer Association is demanding that any chopper based culling be monitored to ensure that the kill is accurately recorded and that there are no animal welfare issues.

In the longer term it is hoped that as the bush recovers deer numbers will drop away as the feed quality deteriorates. A lack of culling of hinds is not the problem - the latest analysis says that the take of sambar is 52% hinds and 48% stags.

Cheers


maybe that ratio needs to be higher then, if rec hunters arnt controlling them? Smiley
  
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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #13 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 4:21pm
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The real problem areas tend to be where there is no recreational hunting due to govt policy or where access is difficult due to track closures during the winter or heavy snow. Helicopter access is illegal except on private property.

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Re: Aus Heli Culling discussion.
Reply #14 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 8:32pm
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The Victorian  brumby cull has been approved but  only with NO SHOOTING methods,yet the deer cull has been approved WITH aerial  shooting controls,like WTF,both are mammals and both do 'damage' to the high country as they say. What in the eff is the difference? Yep, horse people,f**k em!

The horsey crowd have had  their way in denying the aerial shooting control of brumbies Angry but....like I said!

I am very surprised Ken that the ADA haven`t gone in hard on this difference. Angry
  

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