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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) DOC renege on promised review of WARO (Read 5585 times)
Tararua Hunter
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DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:22am
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DOC recently held limited meetings in Palmerston North, Wanaka and Christchurch as part of the so called “consultation” about the next lot of WARO permit renewals

In the last 2 NZDA national conferences,  DOC promised that there would be a full review of the WARO permitting system, to look a “long term integrated sustainable management approach”…and How “everyones needs are recognised and accommodated in a manner that is acceptable to all parties”

NZDA and LNIRDF reps attended these meetings and the expectation was, that we would be discussing the planned review

Instead, we were told the review was off, and it turned out to be just a lecture on the permit system and the WARO operators telling us how hard done by they are, with meat processing restrictions, 1080 blah blah

The out come was, that Doc concluded the meetings indicated the current permit system “was working well”.

What is obvious, that a few dollars more has made the commercial guys happy and they have convinced DOC that a review isn’t needed.  That will be until the easy animals have been taken, and the profitability goes back down. WARO are clearly threatened by any review that looks at game management and sustainability of hunting.

Its yet another cycle of the boom and bust feral venison industry, which will no doubt collapse again,

Quote:
An item has been published on the LNIRDF website. here
https://www.lnirdf.org.nz/blog/778319



Looks like another battle, to get DOC to meet its previous commitments to a full review.
The Game Animal Council boycotted the meetings because of the backdown, and in hindsight, so should have recreational hunters. The GAC are doing what they about this, but their Minister is also DOCs, so it wont be easy for them

Unfortunately, there doesn’t appear to be a strong reaction from the NZDA to what amounts to a betrayal of hunters.

The promised review was also part of DOC defence in our High Court challenge the LNIRDF took against DOC, and we are looking at what legal action we could take. Seems DOC will only listen when the prospect of being taken to court

This issue will affect All hunters of Conservation lands where WARO occurs.
And don’t think that the RHAs and other Closed areas will be exempt. WARO have been lobbying to get into these for years, and without the likes of Peter Dunne in the government, it could happen. Especially with the current Minister of Conservation

We are already faced with getting the Closure of blocks that had been previously closed to WARO for 50 years, but were opened by DOC . (that’s why the High Court challenge)

A further round of "consultation" will occur shortly, when actual land areas allocated to WARO (or excluded) will be decided. That's going to be a bit of an argument to get the reopened areas, back into Closed status. Let alone any further restrictions on WARO


Want  better deer management?

write to the Minister of Conservation at
E.Sage@ministers.govt.nz

and tell her what you think about DOCs betrayal

and Join the LNIRDF.  Smiley
https://www.lnirdf.org.nz/page/504133

« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2018 at 4:54am by Tararua Hunter »  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #1 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:40am
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Wonder if you have a broad outline or proposal for a sustainable solution that would suit all parties. What is the general idea that would make such a goal workable.

You've probably outlined it before in other threads but I need reminding. 

Would the idea be to limit the number of WARO operators? Smiley
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #2 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:42am
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headcase wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:40am:
Wonder if you have a broad outline or proposal for a sustainable solution that would suit all parties. What is the general idea that would make such a goal workable.

You've probably outlined it before in other threads but I need reminding.  Smiley


will find it, Headcase. GAC prepared a detailed proposal for DOC a while back, to (it was ignored)
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #3 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 10:20am
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Seems extraordinary to me that DoC can allow a significantly more permissive WARO regime pretty much 'anywhere' without any real effort to concentrate that activity where biodiversity threats are greatest?

Just because a handy place has lots of deer it does not automatically translate into conservation gains if those deer are removed?

Would also be interesting to know if this approach from DoC is on instruction from the new Minister, or whether it was in train prior to her appointment?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #4 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 11:15am
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What is being promoted

Quote:
This is mainly extracts from the GAC proposal for a reviewed WARO system
This is extracts  from the Game Animal Council proposal for a new WARP permitting system, which pretty well sums up the type of WARO /deer management system we think is needed
1.      Enhance the quality of game animal herds while remaining consistent with conservation values.
2.      Hunting areas should be large enough to support a single efficient operator
3.      Exclusive rights to a single operator in individual areas
4.      Minimum harvest requirements specified to meet conservation objectives
5.      Harvest requirements that address recreational hunter’s needs to some degree.
6.      Allow specification of age and sex of harvested deer in specific locations.
7.      The proposed regime will allow for recreational hunting interests to be addressed through the specification of commercial hunting in both time and place and also by species, age or sex. Recreational and commercial hunting should be complementary not conflicting.
8.      Recreational Hunters harvest more deer, more species of deer and a more consistent harvest irrespective of price, yet their interests are basically not taken into account within the existing regime. Current roar closures only remove the social conflict for a very short period and do not address the management of deer for both recreational and commercial hunting
The GAC proposal allows for sex ratios to be harvested built into permits, providing better management of stags and improved control through taking of mainly hinds

A basic principle of the LNIRDF is that where deer are adequately managed by recreational hunting, WARO is restricted or excluded  ie WARO is restricted to winter only operations. (or totally excluded in some catchments)
This  policy will be reviewed in the current Ruahine Deer Plan development - hopefully not for the worse

The NZDA also have a similar aim, in that rec hunting is the "main management tool" for deer control.



This is what we would have been lobbying for in the planned review.

Now its up to hunters to convince DOC and the Minister of Conservation that the current WARO system isn't as rosy as DOC portrays, and it needs changing.

This means having your say

Otherwise, don't moan when your find your hunting has been affected by WARO.

It remains to be seen, if the countrys hunter rec representitive' (NZDA) will front up
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #5 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 11:27am
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Very disappointing to hear TH but I guess not surprising given DOC's track record, putting the "Con" in conservation.

hopefully you can legally drag them into line?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #6 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 12:41pm
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Does this amount to "Contempt of Court"?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #7 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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Surely to goodness all branches of NZDA in the areas of high population close to the ranges, should push the association's National Executive to get off their butts and do something.  All members of branch committees who read this thread should also perhaps pull finger.
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #8 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 4:11pm
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Section 3 from the Conservation General Policy is below.

Can't help but wonder how the conduct of DoC with respect to this WARO fiasco aligns with this?  Shocked

POLICIES

3 Public Participation in Conservation Management

3 (a) Relationships should be developed with people and organisations interested in public conservation lands and waters, to enhance conservation. These relationships should be based on mutual good faith, cooperation and respect.
3 (b) Partnerships may be developed with people and organisations to enhance conservation.
3 (c) Agreements may be negotiated and implemented to support relationships and partnerships.
3 (d) People and organisations interested in public conservation lands and waters will be consulted when statutory planning documents
are developed.
3 (e) People and organisations interested in public conservation lands and waters should be consulted on specific proposals that have significance for them.
3 (f) People and organisations should be encouraged to participate in conservation and may be supported with information and technical advice where this increases their relevant skills and their understanding of conservation.
3 (g) Education and information should be provided to promote awareness and active support for conservation.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #9 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 4:21pm
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There are those that truly believe that if you play DOC's game,discuss,be nice, etc then you will get results?
I and others have had a bit of stick  Roll Eyes in the past because I intend ti put DOC down.
They have been naughty little rascals of late,Molsworth,this and other adventures.
My Question is...........when are certain people going ti wake up?
For the Gods sake guys...they don't want deer etc running around anywhere,their dream is to have none  Smiley
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #10 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 5:03pm
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Sadly this is not surprising to me - DOC have ruled the roost here for a very long time.

And nothing will change until hunter's find a voice.

I'm a member of NZDA - and while expectations are that they be the 'voice', reading on this forum indicates they are treading the fine line between doing what they believe achievable and what is not.

I am on the edge of being a retired hunter, but the outdoors has been a big part of my life and I feel the need that continuing generations can experience what I have.

To that end I am very prepared to add my voice and money to any organisation, whether that be GAC or someone else who can develop the teeth to have meaningful input in such matters as this.

And something does need to be done for we are looking at 'Pest free NZ by 2050'.
And almost regardless of what classification you think deer, tahr and the others are - to DOC they are a pest.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #11 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 5:17pm
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As a NZDA member I’m disappointed they don’t make more political noise. However some branches I understand are active with the LNIRDF.
I encourage all hunters to join.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #12 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 7:49pm
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Not a lot of interest in this, or so it would appear.

There are many groups out there fighting our battles, but they are fragmented or concerned with a particular sector - and I hardly know any of them.
I had to look up LNIRDF - and I shouldn't have had to, I have a memory TH was involved in a court case with them and DOC not so long back.

We have short memories, or have concern for only what is happening in our neck of the woods - and that is where we are going to lose it.

And perhaps we deserve to - DOC has our measure.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #13 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 8:16pm
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While it's disappointing that DOC has decided against a review I wonder how significent WARO activity is nationally.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #14 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 8:48pm
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
While it's disappointing that DOC has decided against a review I wonder how significent WARO activity is nationally.

very, BB
If you hunt land that's open to WARO
and if it isn't now, it will be
more wanna bee's are trying to get into the business.
Stags are being targeted, so the impact (on shooting stags) can eventually be significant
The price seems stable, and is enough for these guys to operate -
There might be some disappointed hunters during the Roar

Typically, the WARo downturn led to hunters being complacent, and thinking "theres enough deer for everyone"

But its more than just that, its about getting recognition for the sustainable management of deer - and a recognition of the role of rec hunters in deer management
Something that's been sought by hunters for a very long time.
WARo has its place, but not at the expense of reasonable expectations of hunters

The bush hobbits might thinks "they don't get them all', which is dumb. Of course they don't
But if you want to hunt the highcountry of the north and south island, the day might come when its no better than it was in the 1980s. and what about the new hunters? they will find it a lot more difficult as well


  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #15 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 7:47am
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I'm an NZDA member and I think our NATEX is getting more and more out of touch with the rank and file members.

Yes, as said above some of them believe to be in a close relationship with DOC is better than shouting from the outside. There is some truth that if we scream too much they will simply ignore us, but what seems to be happening is that we still aren't having a voice, even while we have the relationship. So what is the point?
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #16 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 4:47pm
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for what its worth i just became a paid up member of lnirdf, sounds like there might be more court time coming up to pay for. keep up the fight people
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #17 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 5:08pm
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awaterelad wrote on Feb 28th, 2018 at 4:47pm:
for what its worth i just became a paid up member of lnirdf, sounds like there might be more court time coming up to pay for. keep up the fight people


Am in the process of doing it now 'cept I don't do internet banking because I'm too bloody dumb - so cheque it will be.

And - you're a bastard because I was going to do it tomorrow.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #18 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 6:13pm
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docs not as silly as people make them out to be, Hunters arent silly either just stupid. youre dealing with a govt department and theres only a few things that sway them, $$$$, heads on chopping block and an election but only if someone gets in that would make it a gamechanger and to be honest it wont happen for years.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #19 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 1:09am
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Good luck getting DOC on our side.  The current Minister of Conservation may well be instructing (and funding) DOC to cull deer, inasmuch as current legislation allows... but watch this space - I'd bet that in this term, or best case their next, they will amend legislation to allow deer to be obliterated.  See previous forum post to read her speech on the GAC legislation: http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1334119165/all

"So we believe that our conservation lands should be managed to protect their indigenous ecosystems and provide for a range of recreation, not managed as game preserves for hunting. These game preserves are in direct conflict with the purpose for which conservations lands are managed, and that is to protect our natural indigenous ecosystems, wildlife, and habitats."

From her second speech on the GAC bill...

"But our major reason for opposing it is that it introduces multiple use management on the public conservation estate and that it is at odds with the whole thrust of conservation legislation and the Department of Conservation’s statutory purpose, which is to protect and preserve natural and historic resources and our unique indigenous biodiversity. Because animals like tahr and deer are being changed by this bill from being recognised as a problem and as having an impact, through their browsing on our high country soils, on our indigenous species, into being seen as more of an asset of value, we are going to see significant conflicts between the Game Animal Council and the Department of Conservation when it wants to undertake culling and control operations and when it wants to do aerial 1080 operations to control possums. The Game Animal Council, in seeking to protect its stakeholder interests, is likely to oppose that."

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #20 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:04am
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gonehuntin wrote on Feb 28th, 2018 at 6:13pm:
docs not as silly as people make them out to be, Hunters arent silly either just stupid. youre dealing with a govt department and theres only a few things that sway them, $$$$, heads on chopping block and an election but only if someone gets in that would make it a gamechanger and to be honest it wont happen for years.
                   



DOC aren't silly at all - they have an agenda and they will steamroll any opposition to achieve that - DOC will never be on our side.
And hunters aren't silly either - we are apathetic and to a degree that is because we don't know what to do.

The courts are going to be where a lot of what we will be able to do is decided - hence my supporting the LNIRDF.
Whether my support for them is the correct decision is something I don't know, but just sitting on my arse wondering where all this is going offers no comfort - so I have taken a step - and hopefully it's in the right direction.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #21 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:30am
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Well said SF90.
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #22 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:59am
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Well said SF90

Like you... i also had to look up the LNIRDF

https://www.lnirdf.org.nz/
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #23 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 10:26am
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Just made another donation. They actually seem to get stuff done, even though they've just been shafted by DOC.

I can feel round two coming on.
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #24 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 11:07am
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Grandad wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:30am:
Well said SF90.
                   



I don't believe anyone has ever said that before - thank you - and you too Seventeenths.

headcase wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 10:26am:
Just made another donation. They actually seem to get stuff done, even though they've just been shafted by DOC.

I can feel round two coming on.
                   



Losses and gains mate, just gotta back someone who steps up to the plate - and one day you might see change.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #25 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 11:43am
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Just joined also.. its not expensive and too easy.  Member numbers are also important.
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #26 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 12:40pm
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Thanks for the support guys. will hopefully get membership responses  sorted soon. 3 weeks  south coming up very soon Smiley
Just been in the tararuas, local WARO decided to get into it. Seemed like wherever I went, he turned up, even in a Squirrel one day, shooting
Still managed to get some venison, but I expect the stag population will be lower over the Roar, this year. Maybe then some hunters might wonder why
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #27 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:18pm
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LNIRDF Is great but we need one unified National voice.

I am in no way implying that LNIRDF is not a good thing
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #28 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 2:43pm
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trip wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
LNIRDF Is great but we need one unified National voice.

I am in no way implying that LNIRDF is not a good thing


quite right, Trip
NZDA is the only non govt organization, although theres one or 2 others?
doesn't seem like hunters want to be in a club, like NZDA.

GAC don't have a "membership", but maybe they will sometime.
But they still need the support from rec hunters. its only way Ministers take notice. (of likes of GAC)

Perhaps NZDA would respond differently (to government decisions) if the had a bigger membership that made its views known( to the executive).
I don't know much about NZDA workings, but does seem a lot of the members (in the Branches) are bit complacent and don't appear to be too concerned (perhaps theres to many get their venison too easily from the paddocks, and arnt to interested in the backcountry.?)

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #29 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 9:06pm
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Looks like another dip into the bank is called for [bTH[/b] gotta keep those DOC Policy wonks focussed that we'll call it each time they disregard the fundamentals. The Minister just has to pay attention when its brought to attention just how much money has been spend on defending the indefensible in court - especially if an Opposition Party raise it in session. DOC might be trying to hide it under the carpet with a new Minister . . .
I continue to wonder what my NZDA funds are going towards - "advocacy" means speaking out - if they are short of subjects, they could ask - I've been telling them  Huh
Happy to keep flicking $ to the LNIRDF cos at least it's doing something.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #30 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 9:35am
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trip wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
LNIRDF Is great but we need one unified National voice.


Dead right there - and numbers will count.

One thing with the LNIRDF is unless you do internet banking, which I don't - then they're bloody hard to join up with or get money into.
They also ignore emails.

My wife usually does all that for me, but as we are currently having a 'spat' I'm having to walk quite a long way around her and until she apologises - that is how it will stay.

It's hard to criticize NZDA, they do very good work in many areas - young hunter training etc, etc.
I joined up all my family with them - and it was worth it just for the use of the local range where for the cost of the range key ($30) gives me the opportunity to use that facility almost every day of the year.
The cost of upgrading and maintaining the Rotorua range was massive - and I assume that applies nation wide.

I will stay with them, but I look forward to the day we get that rarest of rare things - a unified national voice.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #31 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 10:21pm
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I heard a rumour with a CAA employee that with D.O.Cs ban on Robinson Helicopters because of safety issues  Roll Eyes may be an issue with current WARO operators having to be forced to operate with the more expensive turbine helicopters thus incurring higher costs,less profit margin?
Seems like a technicality in the sensitive area of Health and Safety?
Bit of a shame for most of the good blokes making a living at present in a Robinson machine doing WARO. Cool
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #32 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:47am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
Thanks for the support guys. will hopefully get membership responses  sorted soon. 3 weeks  south coming up very soon Smiley
Just been in the tararuas, local WARO decided to get into it. Seemed like wherever I went, he turned up, even in a Squirrel one day, shooting
Still managed to get some venison, but I expect the stag population will be lower over the Roar, this year. Maybe then some hunters might wonder why


and dont forget the damage done by the 1080 drops either ,this would also have a big impact  on deer numbers not just waro, as you always like to state, a balanced view would be more appropriate
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #33 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 5:36am
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So caa talking and telling fibs,must have old staff back,doc have not stopped the 44 on deer etc,still dropping 1080 with them, Grin
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #34 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:32pm
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pope wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:47am:
Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
Thanks for the support guys. will hopefully get membership responses  sorted soon. 3 weeks  south coming up very soon Smiley
Just been in the tararuas, local WARO decided to get into it. Seemed like wherever I went, he turned up, even in a Squirrel one day, shooting
Still managed to get some venison, but I expect the stag population will be lower over the Roar, this year. Maybe then some hunters might wonder why


and dont forget the damage done by the 1080 drops either ,this would also have a big impact  on deer numbers not just waro, as you always like to state, a balanced view would be more appropriate


All of the forest parks get 1080'd here, Pope. Aorangi using repellent. hunting groups seem to be happy with the results of that, probably the best of a bad deal

The LNIRDF position on 1080 is, that where aerial predator control is going to occur, then at least deer repellent is used. Its the deer we're conserned about

Northwest Ruahine went ahead without repellent, to which the LNIRDF had several discussions with the regional Director about.

He was sympathetic, but the Ruahines would have used the netire supply of NZs deer repellent, it seems. there were 'higher priorities" decided by NZDA/GAC (mainly smaller, more "at risk" populations, so Ruahine missed out

next time we might get heard better

The Ruahines got hit twice, WARO before and then 1080 (NW block)

We believe that WARO has a bigger impact on hunters. Stags (big and potential) are taken mainly, and deer are taken from the places deer prefer, - the same places rec hunters on foot go. That, and the effects of WARO are ongoing, so long as venison price is ok

The lowest deer populations in NZ occurred during the height of the WARO industry. we seem to be headed for yet another boom in venison prices, so expect more pressure to let WARO into existing Closed/restricted areas

That is the battle we have at present, plus moving towards a more sustainable WARO/Rec hunting

The Ruahine Deer Plan is heading towards just that, hopefully and will be a first for Red Deer Management
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #35 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:07pm
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pope wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:47am:
Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
Thanks for the support guys. will hopefully get membership responses  sorted soon. 3 weeks  south coming up very soon Smiley
Just been in the tararuas, local WARO decided to get into it. Seemed like wherever I went, he turned up, even in a Squirrel one day, shooting
Still managed to get some venison, but I expect the stag population will be lower over the Roar, this year. Maybe then some hunters might wonder why


and dont forget the damage done by the 1080 drops either ,this would also have a big impact  on deer numbers not just waro, as you always like to state, a balanced view would be more appropriate


So far as I can see the more distance we put between the WARO argument and 1080 the better. 

DOC have been hugely successful in painting the anti-1080 crowd as nutters lets not let that rub off on the WARO debate.

WARO guys target the best animals in the most productive areas.  Direct competition for us ground hunting folk.

Cheers, Dan
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #36 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 7:57pm
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Doin’ this by cellfone out of NZ with dodgy internet so cant see all the thread. Has anyone sent an email/ letter on this issue to Eugenie Sage? And if so did you get an acknowledgement or response? For me its yes, and no.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #37 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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Agree with you TH. The Sika Foundation can get all Kaimanawa and Kaweka areas done with repellent and Land-Care research scientist Graeme Nuggent  did a camera study and a massive ground search post drop.  Estimated a 10% deer kill. Most of the deer killed were under a year old with only a couple of older ones. Its about hunters putting in submissions and demanding repellent, as 1080 isn't going to go away over night.  Further you have to show DOC that you are working towards conservation benefits with better out comes for all.  The Sika Foundation has organized hunts flying groups of three hunters into areas that have been opened up so helicopters can put hunters on ground. These areas were out of bounds for landing but DOC saw the conservation benefits and let them land. The areas where the bush is in poor condition and thin out the hinds which are also in poor condition.  Poor conditioned hinds don't cycle and that flows onto a poor area for the roar. Its not a 5 minute fix will take at least 5 years before benefits will start to show up. Better bush environment, better quality deer and better roar hunting experiences.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #38 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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LOVETT wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 2:07pm:
pope wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 12:47am:
Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 4th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
Thanks for the support guys. will hopefully get membership responses  sorted soon. 3 weeks  south coming up very soon Smiley
Just been in the tararuas, local WARO decided to get into it. Seemed like wherever I went, he turned up, even in a Squirrel one day, shooting
Still managed to get some venison, but I expect the stag population will be lower over the Roar, this year. Maybe then some hunters might wonder why


and dont forget the damage done by the 1080 drops either ,this would also have a big impact  on deer numbers not just waro, as you always like to state, a balanced view would be more appropriate


So far as I can see the more distance we put between the WARO argument and 1080 the better. 

DOC have been hugely successful in painting the anti-1080 crowd as nutters lets not let that rub off on the WARO debate.

WARO guys target the best animals in the most productive areas.  Direct competition for us ground hunting folk.

Cheers, Dan


This is the sort of comment that slows the whole process down for everybody.

DOC's end game is to kill every introduced wild animal. Rec hunters, meat hunters and possum trappers are all affected equally.

DOC is doing a fine job of splitting off the rec hunters from the guys that hunt for a living. I can also assure you that DOC is not seeing me, and other contract trappers, as simply "anti-1080 nutters", as DOC are back at the negotiating table talking through the issues they are publicly rubbishing.

The solutions we want implemented will happen a lot quicker if we are all working together and setting the ground rules of the negotiations, instead of allowing DOC to continue to make the ground rules, which includes, pitting interests groups against each other when they should be working with each other if we want to be a more effective force to be reckoned with.

1080 does kill more deer than aerial meat hunting. Some deer hunters have always shot deer for meat to sell. The disagreements about meat hunting vs rec hunting have been around for as long as deer have been hunted.

Rec hunters, meat hunters and DOC should be able to agree on a formula that allows for all forms of deer hunting and enables native wildlife to thrive, except, DOC's end game is the eradication of all wild animals including wild deer.

All hunters, deer and otherwise, are equally affected by DOC's end game as there will, quite simply, be no wild animals left if DOC has their way.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #39 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm
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I agree there marty with what you say, i've sent 2 emails to the new minister of conservation and only received one back, she didnt answer my first one i sent last year over my concerns how she is intending to deal with recreational hunting, etc, she answered my second one recently over another issue, which has still left me wondering.
,it does take some time for them to answer.i will send another to her to see what sort of response i get.

I also received a letter from Mark Patterson NZF spokesperson for 1080.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #40 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 5:24pm
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pope wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm:
I agree there marty with what you say, i've sent 2 emails to the new minister of conservation and only received one back, she didnt answer my first one i sent last year over my concerns how she is intending to deal with recreational hunting, etc, she answered my second one recently over another issue, which has still left me wondering.
,it does take some time for them to answer.i will send another to her to see what sort of response i get.

I also received a letter from Mark Patterson NZF spokesperson for 1080.


Now here's an interesting thing...An Aussie from right over the other side of Australia has replies from Eugene Sage and Mark Patterson, both of whom are directly involved with what is going on right now.

How many of this forum's posters have letters from people like Eugene or Mark? How many have written letters to the Minister and Director General of Conservation or politicians that have made pre election promises designed to get votes?

I have got stacks of replies from the people concerned. Sometimes, they didn't want to answer my questions, however, after determined persistence, in some cases lasting many years, I have got the replies. It is the replies that allows me to demand that DOC talk with contract trappers as a serious contender for wild animal control work.

If you do not get the answers to your questions and are brushed off with some PR blurb, you have no choice except to keep going back to them until your questions are answered to your complete satisfaction.

A word of advice: Do not approach the Ombudsman until you have fully canvassed all possible ways to get the information you have asked for. If you do take the advice, at the bottom of DOC letters to ask the Ombudsman to investigate, you are guaranteeing that it will take you 3-4 times as long to get the information as the Ombudsman, after 6-8 months, will advise you to go back to DOC with a new approach.

If individuals did ask the questions, of the Powers that Be, and kept going until the required information was forthcoming, two things would happen:

1) DOC would start changing their tune as information is power. With more information in the hands of individuals, opposed to DOC policy, DOC would reconsider their policies.

2) NZDA and GAC would not be in the position of walking the tightrope of trying to keep their membership happy and continuing unsatisfactory slow dialogue with DOC.

You have more power to influence what is happening than you believe. Well worded letters and questions, from individuals, are very important. It is unfair to simply complain, on forums like this, down at the pub, etc, if you are not prepared to stand up and do what you are expecting other people to do.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #41 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 5:38pm
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UPDATE
we have received copious amounts of emails, documents from an OIA request. from DOC

seems

-Until September 2017, a full review was planned (since 2015)
-a WARO representative complained to DOC and the review was canned,

-one of the complaints, was DOc intending to seek "sustainable deer management". They were threatened with legal action, if they didn't change it

-WARO don't want any more Boom and Bust, but are happy theyre now in the beginnings of a Boom, and inevitably, will come the bust. But don't want anyone telling them a more sustainable way of operating

-The GAC boycotted the meetings and raised their objections to the reneging on the review with DOC, quite strongly

-DOC replied the the discussions with rec hunters ate the 3 meetings (NZDA and LNIRDF only) did not show the same level of concern as the GAC was expressing. Except for the LNIRDF, who did mack there objections known Smiley

-it seems that the apparent passive response by the NZDA (Weathered was there, I don't think he was too passive!)) has allowed DOC to minimise the hunter backlash

-DOC held meetings with WARO only, but hunters were excluded. But in the hunter meetings, WARO were invited. that amounted to a separate lobbying opportunity for WARO, something hunters have never been given by DOC. This is why DOC lost the High Court challenge, because of favouritism shown to WARO

-its obvious DOC decided to cancel the review, because the commercial WARo guys said they were happy. (a bit more money in venison now) - not very good business management IMO Undecided

The GAC appear to be persuing the issue with the government, and not letting it go. I think they feel shafted by DOC

Looks like another legal challenge coming up Undecided
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #42 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 7:37pm
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Some else I just uncovered, is that

- DOC are using the latest deer monitoring methods and have data showing increasing deer numbers. - probly not rocket science

- re RHAs and other Closed/restricted areas that currently exist; DOC have told WARO that they can lodge special applications to shoot the likes of RHAs on a one off basis.

For those that currently hunt RHAs and the like, (like me), don't think they going to be safe from Helicopters indefinitely. If DOC have the data showing increasing deer numbers, and WARO make an application for permits, it could be bad news.

If you think it wont happen, get your head out of your arse. it happened in 2015 up here. Undecided

below is another monster that's gone for a ride under a chopper, from the west coast

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #43 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:07pm
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Impressive head, iv heard about the big 16 that got shot and assume it's that one.

How long did the last venison boom go on for?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #44 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:18pm
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tw wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:07pm:
Impressive head, iv heard about the big 16 that got shot and assume it's that one.

How long did the last venison boom go on for?


as I recall, venison prices have coming and going over last 10 years.
But the big one obviously was from the late 60s thru to the late 70s, and then moved onto live deer capture.
After live deer capture stopped, it was back to venison, which went on until the downturn - in 2003 or so. not sure bout when.

there will no doubt be another downturn, but the venison factories seem optomistic in the medium term
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #45 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:22pm
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Does that one look a lot like the stag from the recent NZHunter Adventures red roar episode?
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #46 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:30pm
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as I recall, venison prices have coming and going over last 10 years.
But the big one obviously was from the late 60s thru to the late 70s, and then moved onto live deer capture.
After live deer capture stopped, it was back to venison, which went on until the downturn - in 2003 or so. not sure bout when.

there will no doubt be another downturn, but the venison factories seem optomistic in the medium term [/quote]


do you think the prices will be good for another 5-10years?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #47 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:52pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
below is another monster that's gone for a ride under a chopper, from the west coast


In all my years I've never seen one like that - what a hell of a way to go.

It's hardly any wonder we get talked about overseas.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #48 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:57pm
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Oscar wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Does that one look a lot like the stag from the recent NZHunter Adventures red roar episode?

no its another, Oscar. west coast I gather

but they did get the big stag greg shot at and missed, then later on left it
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #49 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:00pm
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tw wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:30pm:
as I recall, venison prices have coming and going over last 10 years.
But the big one obviously was from the late 60s thru to the late 70s, and then moved onto live deer capture.
After live deer capture stopped, it was back to venison, which went on until the downturn - in 2003 or so. not sure bout when.

there will no doubt be another downturn, but the venison factories seem optomistic in the medium term



do you think the prices will be good for another 5-10years? [/quote]

dunno, not really up with  that. hope not Undecided
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #50 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:46pm
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Its all bullshit, 1080 is bullshit, the reason for dropping it is bullshit, the waro debate is bullshit, hunting organisations claiming to have hunters interests at heart is bullshit (apart from most of the members that finance them), All these issues are not about whats right or wrong but instead about money and controlling people. There ya go, all the issues hunters and self sustaining people are frustrated with explained.
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #51 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:57pm
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Sika 9 wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:46pm:
Its all bullshit, 1080 is bullshit, the reason for dropping it is bullshit, the waro debate is bullshit, hunting organisations claiming to have hunters interests at heart is bullshit (apart from most of the members that finance them), All these issues are not about whats right or wrong but instead about money and controlling people. There ya go, all the issues hunters and self sustaining people are frustrated with explained.
                   


Bloody nice rant mate - you just pulled all the bullshit fluff off everything and left all the pustules and sores exposed.

And I wish I had the balls to say that.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #52 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:52am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 5:38pm:
UPDATE
we have received copious amounts of emails, documents from an OIA request. from DOC

seems

-Until September 2017, a full review was planned (since 2015)
-a WARO representative complained to DOC and the review was canned,

-one of the complaints, was DOc intending to seek "sustainable deer management". They were threatened with legal action, if they didn't change it

-WARO don't want any more Boom and Bust, but are happy theyre now in the beginnings of a Boom, and inevitably, will come the bust. But don't want anyone telling them a more sustainable way of operating

-The GAC boycotted the meetings and raised their objections to the reneging on the review with DOC, quite strongly

-DOC replied the the discussions with rec hunters ate the 3 meetings (NZDA and LNIRDF only) did not show the same level of concern as the GAC was expressing. Except for the LNIRDF, who did mack there objections known Smiley

-it seems that the apparent passive response by the NZDA (Weathered was there, I don't think he was too passive!)) has allowed DOC to minimise the hunter backlash

-DOC held meetings with WARO only, but hunters were excluded. But in the hunter meetings, WARO were invited. that amounted to a separate lobbying opportunity for WARO, something hunters have never been given by DOC. This is why DOC lost the High Court challenge, because of favouritism shown to WARO

-its obvious DOC decided to cancel the review, because the commercial WARo guys said they were happy. (a bit more money in venison now) - not very good business management IMO Undecided

The GAC appear to be persuing the issue with the government, and not letting it go. I think they feel shafted by DOC

Looks like another legal challenge coming up Undecided


Hi TH,

1) Are the minutes of the meetings you are talking about available for public consumption?

2) What is deemed "sustainable" and how is a "sustainable" deer population being measured?

3) Has there been any discussions on what a firm deer population density should be and how this deer population should be measured? If this work has been done, it should be a simple matter to decide when ground hunters have exclusive hunting rights, when aerial hunting can take place and when DOC needs to step in with alternative measures.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #53 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:30am
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Quote:
Hi TH,

1) Are the minutes of the meetings you are talking about available for public consumption?

2) What is deemed "sustainable" and how is a "sustainable" deer population being measured?

3) Has there been any discussions on what a firm deer population density should be and how this deer population should be measured? If this work has been done, it should be a simple matter to decide when ground hunters have exclusive hunting rights, when aerial hunting can take place and when DOC needs to step in with alternative measures.



will post them but not sure where/how. in PDF documents

The sustainable issue was what we expected to be determined
DOC got cold feet when told by WARO rep that the WAC act did not provide for Sustainable population mgt. only "Concerted Action", and threatened legal action

again, a review would have obliged DOC to detail what deer populations met the threshold for reduction, but they would have had difficulty

both these issues are currently being debated with Lower North Islan DOC and WARO in the Ruahine Deer Plan. this plan has a goal of Sustainable management of deer and one of the tasks is the identifiy thresholds for deer control
as yet are still wading thru this, but I think next meeting DOC might front up with more detail

reality is, all ecosystems are different, and what populations are Sustainable and which arnt, and DOC don't know what leval of deer population is acceptable

so they have taken the view the WAC act requires them to allow commercial and recreational deer control, anywhere otherthan Closed areas

the Ruahine Deer Plan includes a more intensive look at monitoring deer and impacts, something that does not generally exist in rest of NZ

a more intensive measurement of vegetation will also have to be introduced as well, to measure impacts

the old deer pellet frequency method has been thrown out so we are starting with a new baseline of deer population (abundance) that also means it wont be until these new baseline measurements are remeasured, that deffinite conclusions can be made about deer densities and their impacts

so we found DOC really knows very little, and that the Ruahine exercise will probably be a model for deer control elsewhere

if it results in real sustainable deer management, then that's a bonus for hunters and its why we are participating

one thing, the WAC act does not give priority to either WARO or rec hunters. so DOC take the view that hunters have to compete with WARO. hunters don't have exclusive rights. although places where WARO is closed, are in fact exclusive rights (RHAs etc) so its not a black and white thing

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #54 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:30am
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Thats why hunting groups need to get in and work closer together. CNISF (sika foundation) have worked with DOC to open up areas that were closed for chopper landings and have organized hunts to control numbers. These are very well supported by hunters from around the country. The long term goal is to improve hunting experiences by having better quality animals  and roar hunting and improving the environment the deer live in and  to support better quality animals with better out comes for hunters and DOC.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #55 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 11:38am
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Ruger260 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:30am:
Thats why hunting groups need to get in and work closer together. CNISF (sika foundation) have worked with DOC to open up areas that were closed for chopper landings and have organized hunts to control numbers. These are very well supported by hunters from around the country. The long term goal is to improve hunting experiences by having better quality animals  and roar hunting and improving the environment the deer live in and  to support better quality animals with better out comes for hunters and DOC.


Ruger206, seems theres also more interest by hunters in what happens to sika, than does with Red deer. probably because of the efforts of the sika foundation

ditto with the tahr, whitetail etc

Red Deer hunting occurs nearly everywhere, and doesn't seem to create the same interest about their management
lot of reasons for that, I guess
smaller herds are easier to get hutners involved, as the sika foundation have donne

red deer is mainly site specific. eg the Rakaia herd, Molesworth etc
But they are the most commonly hunted species and really typify NZ hunting

I think when all this impacts more on hunters, (like a shortage of stags in the Rakaia,) then there might be more hunter concern.

NZDA are in the best position to get hunters into action, but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #56 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:18pm
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Correct the Sika area is the most widely hunted area going by DOC permits.  A university study showed an annual spend of around $18,000,000.00 per year. The LNIRDF are doing great work as well, and of course the Wapiti Foundation.  CNISF have the herd of special interest with GAC now so its a waiting game to see if the Minister of Conservation will sign it off.  I know the Wapiti Foundation and other groups are watching with interest. The Sika HOSI document is over 50 pages in length and very comprehensive.
Its about working collectively and you have to engage DOC as well to show the conservation benefits.  The CNISF is also looking at using  Good nature traps around the campsite areas where organized hunts are, there are nearly 20 sites which have been opened up and at the moment there are members out in the Kaweka's doing pellet count surveys. Plenty going on behind the scenes.   
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #57 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:06am
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Ruger260 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:18pm:
Correct the Sika area is the most widely hunted area going by DOC permits.  A university study showed an annual spend of around $18,000,000.00 per year. The LNIRDF are doing great work as well, and of course the Wapiti Foundation.  CNISF have the herd of special interest with GAC now so its a waiting game to see if the Minister of Conservation will sign it off.  I know the Wapiti Foundation and other groups are watching with interest. The Sika HOSI document is over 50 pages in length and very comprehensive.
Its about working collectively and you have to engage DOC as well to show the conservation benefits.  The CNISF is also looking at using  Good nature traps around the campsite areas where organized hunts are, there are nearly 20 sites which have been opened up and at the moment there are members out in the Kaweka's doing pellet count surveys. Plenty going on behind the scenes.   


While I applaud the work the Sika Foundation is doing. It is, quite simply, not enough.

The Sika Foundation talks about doing pellet counts and LNIRDF says that DOC has stated that pellet counts have been rejected as a measure of deer density. All measures of deer density, that are used as a management tool elsewhere, are automatically rejected, by DOC, for the simple reason that DOC's end game is the eradication of all wild deer in NZ and committing to the management of deer herds makes the future eradication goal harder to achieve.

The Sika Foundation appears to be getting somewhere, except that the results aren't that flash. 1080 is still being poured, in ever increasing tonnages for TB possum control, over the sika herds, even though everyone, in the know, knows that 1080 is not achieving the possum kills claimed. Could this be something to do with the fact that one of the Sika advocates invented the deer repellent, that doesn't work, and doesn't want to relinquish the vested interest he has in 1080 application.

Deer hunters have to put DOC on notice that they are going to end up managing the deer herds, under contract to DOC, and on their own terms, not DOC's. DOC will be there to oversee and will step in if the deer herd management is not up to scratch. This is the stance that contract trappers have taken. The contract trapper battle actually has very little to do with wild animal control and has more to do with displacing the people employed by the 1080 industry who do not want to be displaced.

GAC is a government construct designed to look like DOC is interested in wild deer herd management. Without funding GAC can, quite simply, not do its job. An example I can use that parallels GAC is the setting up of Special Education (SE) that was supposed to help kids with leaning difficulties like dyslexia. When SE was set up I was involved with helping these kids and we all thought, great the government is listening. What we found out was that the government was listening, but not to the kids needing help, and was only interested in appearing to be doing the right thing to the voters at large. I know this because of the pushing I was doing, to get the kids the help that was promised, and I ended talking with the head of SE who eventually told me that the government had only fronted up with enough money to set up an office and had not provided any funds to actually do any of the work promised. GAC is the same and is nothing more than a government constructed fob-off to Peter Dunn to make it appear that his pre-election promises were being partially addressed in return for his essential vote to keep the government, of the day, in power.

Recreational hunters, of all persuasions, need to join forces and set up herd management plans and then force DOC to accept them. The idea that DOC is going to somehow set up their own wild animal management plans, that will inhibit the end goal of eradication, is pure fantasy and is not going to happen. The only thing that can happen is for the hunting community to become proactive, write up herd management plans, that allow for the biodiversity outcomes DOC says it wants, and then force DOC to sign on the dotted line.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #58 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:05pm
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Hi Ruger260,

I've visited the CNISF website. I can't find a link to to the Sika herd management plan.

Are you able to provide me with a link to the plan that has been submitted to GAC?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #59 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 4:09pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:06am:
Could this be something to do with the fact that one of the Sika advocates invented the deer repellent, that doesn't work, and doesn't want to relinquish the vested interest he has in 1080 application.


Marty, where is your evidence that deer repellent does not work? There have been a number of peer reviewed studies published that show that it does. Can you explain what is wrong with those studies that the referees missed?

You maintain that an un-named advocate for Sika has a vested interest in 1080 application. Do you have evidence of that vested interest, or is it simply conjecture on your part?

Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:06am:
Deer hunters have to put DOC on notice that they are going to end up managing the deer herds, under contract to DOC, and on their own terms, not DOC's. DOC will be there to oversee and will step in if the deer herd management is not up to scratch.

Recreational hunters, of all persuasions, need to join forces and set up herd management plans and then force DOC to accept them. The idea that DOC is going to somehow set up their own wild animal management plans, that will inhibit the end goal of eradication, is pure fantasy and is not going to happen. The only thing that can happen is for the hunting community to become proactive, write up herd management plans, that allow for the biodiversity outcomes DOC says it wants, and then force DOC to sign on the dotted line.


That sounds like a reasonable idea, but how do hunters force DOC to do that? Hunters' ability to do so seems to be nil going by your opinion of DOC, especially if their end plan really is eradication. What bargaining chips do hunters hold?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #60 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 6:53pm
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Quote:
The Sika Foundation talks about doing pellet counts and LNIRDF says that DOC has stated that pellet counts have been rejected as a measure of deer density. All measures of deer density,

nope
what I meant was, the old pellet frequency transects do not correlate with the new Tier One survey method

So Tier One is being rolled out around the country, but is a baseline measurement, until repeats are done.
may of the plots are being remeasured, or have been, and results so far apparently indicate increasing deer densities

The older transect lines are still relevant, when compared with similar transects done previously
That is the orginal pellet survey method and measures changes in pellet frequency ie if measurements are increasing, decreasing etc

Which is a useful method, but seems to being replaced by the Tier One which measures Abundance ie densities. and compares densities between areas ie West coast versus Canterbury

Quite a broad approach, but suits what DOC is trying to show, apparently

as part of assessing deer in the Ruahines, DOC is intensifying sampling, to give more accuracy, locally. This is part of the Deer Plan process, which is about planning for Sustainable management of deer. something that DOC has not wanted to do nationally, during the WARO permit review
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #61 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 7:25pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 6:53pm:
Quote:
The Sika Foundation talks about doing pellet counts and LNIRDF says that DOC has stated that pellet counts have been rejected as a measure of deer density. All measures of deer density,

nope
what I meant was, the old pellet frequency transects do not correlate with the new Tier One survey method

So Tier One is being rolled out around the country, but is a baseline measurement, until repeats are done.
may of the plots are being remeasured, or have been, and results so far apparently indicate increasing deer densities

The older transect lines are still relevant, when compared with similar transects done previously
That is the orginal pellet survey method and measures changes in pellet frequency ie if measurements are increasing, decreasing etc

Which is a useful method, but seems to being replaced by the Tier One which measures Abundance ie densities. and compares densities between areas ie West coast versus Canterbury

Quite a broad approach, but suits what DOC is trying to show, apparently

as part of assessing deer in the Ruahines, DOC is intensifying sampling, to give more accuracy, locally. This is part of the Deer Plan process, which is about planning for Sustainable management of deer. something that DOC has not wanted to do nationally, during the WARO permit review


That's goods new then, if the pellet counts are robust enough to use as a density measure.

How do DOC's pellet count methods compare to overseas methods where deer herds have been effectively managed for decades?

If the pellet counts do stack up, then it is a simple matter on deciding acceptable deer densities, for individual herds, at which different strategies are used e.g. Exclusive ground hunting, hind only aerial hunting, open slather aerial hunting and throw everything at the deer because they are out of control.

Once these levels are set the hunting community can then sign herd management agreements with DOC and get on with the job knowing that the extreme green elements have been neutralised for the time being.

Get signed herd management agreements and the current WARO dispute becomes no longer relevant and is a thing of the past.

Once herd management contracts are signed there will better buy-in from the hunting community and deer kills reported can be used with more confidence. As I understand it, overseas, pellet counts and deer kills, where it is compulsory to record every kill, are used to guide hunting and control strategies.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #62 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:06pm
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MeatHunta wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 4:09pm:
Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:06am:
Could this be something to do with the fact that one of the Sika advocates invented the deer repellent, that doesn't work, and doesn't want to relinquish the vested interest he has in 1080 application.


Marty, where is your evidence that deer repellent does not work? There have been a number of peer reviewed studies published that show that it does. Can you explain what is wrong with those studies that the referees missed?

You maintain that an un-named advocate for Sika has a vested interest in 1080 application. Do you have evidence of that vested interest, or is it simply conjecture on your part?

Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:06am:
Deer hunters have to put DOC on notice that they are going to end up managing the deer herds, under contract to DOC, and on their own terms, not DOC's. DOC will be there to oversee and will step in if the deer herd management is not up to scratch.

Recreational hunters, of all persuasions, need to join forces and set up herd management plans and then force DOC to accept them. The idea that DOC is going to somehow set up their own wild animal management plans, that will inhibit the end goal of eradication, is pure fantasy and is not going to happen. The only thing that can happen is for the hunting community to become proactive, write up herd management plans, that allow for the biodiversity outcomes DOC says it wants, and then force DOC to sign on the dotted line.


That sounds like a reasonable idea, but how do hunters force DOC to do that? Hunters' ability to do so seems to be nil going by your opinion of DOC, especially if their end plan really is eradication. What bargaining chips do hunters hold?


Deer repellent does work so long as the baits remain dry and then are destroyed in the first rain event. Deer repellent doesn't work if there is enough moisture to wash off the repellent and leave the bait with a lethal charge of 1080. It doesn't take much moisture to wash off the deer repellent and light drizzle or heavy dews is all it takes.

The inventor of deer repellent was working as a DOC manager when he invented the deer repellent. He then quit DOC and started working for EPRO where he was actively involved in marketing the deer repellent.

All deer hunters can do is just keeping hammering away at DOC forcing the real facts to the surface so that they can be used effectively and this will stop DOC using innuendo and untruths to promote the extreme green eradication policies.

That's what the Kaimanawa horse people did and is what contract trappers are doing.

I hadn't realised that DOC has adopted, what is being stated as, effective deer density measurements. Without effective deer density measurements there can be no herd management solutions.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #63 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:31pm
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Yep, deer repellent isn't perfect, but it is definitely better than no deer repellent.

Marty, in your earlier post you said:
"Could this be something to do with the fact that one of the Sika advocates invented the deer repellent, that doesn't work, and doesn't want to relinquish the vested interest he has in 1080 application."

I asked for evidence of his current vested interest. Your response was:

"The inventor of deer repellent was working as a DOC manager when he invented the deer repellent. He then quit DOC and started working for EPRO where he was actively involved in marketing the deer repellent."

That's historical. He is no longer an employee of either DOC or EPRO as far as I'm aware. Do you have evidence of a current vested interest?

Another explanation is that he advocates for use of deer repellent simply because he cares about deer and thinks that it actually reduces deer mortality. That's my pick.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #64 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:48pm
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MeatHunta wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:31pm:
Yep, deer repellent isn't perfect, but it is definitely better than no deer repellent.

Marty, in your earlier post you said:
"Could this be something to do with the fact that one of the Sika advocates invented the deer repellent, that doesn't work, and doesn't want to relinquish the vested interest he has in 1080 application."

I asked for evidence of his current vested interest. Your response was:

"The inventor of deer repellent was working as a DOC manager when he invented the deer repellent. He then quit DOC and started working for EPRO where he was actively involved in marketing the deer repellent."

That's historical. He is no longer an employee of either DOC or EPRO as far as I'm aware. Do you have evidence of a current vested interest?

Another explanation is that he advocates for use of deer repellent simply because he cares about deer and thinks that it actually reduces deer mortality. That's my pick.


Nobody knows if he has a current vested interest. He certainly hasn't come out with any public statements as to his current position.

The fact is that there is no need to drop 1080 over the sika herds for TB possum control.

OSPRI has commissioned scientists to look at the way OSPRI has been monitoring post-aerial 1080 operations. It is very clear that OSPRI has been timing post-1080 monitoring to achieve an underestimation of possum densities and an overestimation of possum kills. It is also a fact that contract trappers are signing possum control contracts where the target possum density is lower than what can be expected from 1080 and the trappers are consistently hitting those targets.

Based upon these facts there is no reason to drop 1080 over the sika herds as there is an alternative solution that will do a better job, just on possum numbers alone. With the added bonus that trappers are able to autopsy all the possums killed and identify exactly where any TB possum hot-spots are.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #65 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:50pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 6:53pm:
Quote:
The Sika Foundation talks about doing pellet counts and LNIRDF says that DOC has stated that pellet counts have been rejected as a measure of deer density. All measures of deer density,

nope
what I meant was, the old pellet frequency transects do not correlate with the new Tier One survey method

So Tier One is being rolled out around the country, but is a baseline measurement, until repeats are done.
may of the plots are being remeasured, or have been, and results so far apparently indicate increasing deer densities

The older transect lines are still relevant, when compared with similar transects done previously
That is the orginal pellet survey method and measures changes in pellet frequency ie if measurements are increasing, decreasing etc

Which is a useful method, but seems to being replaced by the Tier One which measures Abundance ie densities. and compares densities between areas ie West coast versus Canterbury

Quite a broad approach, but suits what DOC is trying to show, apparently

as part of assessing deer in the Ruahines, DOC is intensifying sampling, to give more accuracy, locally. This is part of the Deer Plan process, which is about planning for Sustainable management of deer. something that DOC has not wanted to do nationally, during the WARO permit review


Remember that was a "Deer control plan" not a deer management plan..... the latter appears inconsistent with their conservation objectives according to the heads in the room.  We beg to differ and maintain a control plan is only ever going to work if it is about managing numbers... Smiley Smiley hence a management plan is a far better description that allows for policy that fits the location both habitat wise and recreation/commercially.  Time will tell if they can ever get their heads around that....
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #66 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:54pm
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Repellent was first used in Canada and USA to stop deer eating bark off trees. The trees were sprayed with the stuff to deter them from eating the bark.  From what I have learned the repellent is dried pigs blood(imported from Canada)then mixed with water and sprayed over the pellets and sun dried.  There is some truth in what has been said that the person worked for DOC and then EPRO and was there when repellent was first being trialled.  All members of the CNISF committee are very passionate about the breed and wanting to secure their future for future generations of hunters. 
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2018 at 8:26am by Ruger260 »  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #67 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:22am
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Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:48pm:
Nobody knows if he has a current vested interest. He certainly hasn't come out with any public statements as to his current position.


Thanks Marty, I'm pleased we cleared that up. You agree that you have disparaged this person on the basis that he hasn't said that he hasn't got a current vested interest when there is no evidence that he does.

I think we need to raise the discussion above baseless personal attack and focus on the core issues  Smiley

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #68 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:42am
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MeatHunta wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:22am:
Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:48pm:
Nobody knows if he has a current vested interest. He certainly hasn't come out with any public statements as to his current position.


Thanks Marty, I'm pleased we cleared that up. You agree that you have disparaged this person on the basis that he hasn't said that he hasn't got a current vested interest when there is no evidence that he does.

I think we need to raise the discussion above baseless personal attack and focus on the core issues  Smiley



There is evidence that he did have a vested interest and there is no evidence that he has divested himself of that vested interest. He was certainly promoting deer repellent when he was known to have a vested interest.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #69 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 3:16pm
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HiTop wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:50pm:
[quote author=477261726166724C5B667D677661130 link=1519723355/60#60 date=1520708005

Remember that was a "Deer control plan" not a deer management plan..... the latter appears inconsistent with their conservation objectives according to the heads in the room.  We beg to differ and maintain a control plan is only ever going to work if it is about managing numbers... Smiley Smiley hence a management plan is a far better description that allows for policy that fits the location both habitat wise and recreation/commercially.  Time will tell if they can ever get their heads around that....


Its interesting, HiTop. DOC have this aversion of acknowledging "Deer management" but the agreed Ruahine Goal is
Quote:
Sustainable hunting resource / game animal population existing in harmony with resilient ecosystem in Ruahine Forest Park (RFP).


And in the department briefing of the Conservation Board, they refer to a "Deer Management Plan"

Yet in the recent WARO issue, the were spooked by threats of legal action for referring to "sustainable deer management". so no review of "Sustainable Management of Deer", (or Sustainable Management of Deer Control - ie WARO rec hunting"
Perhaps, because it suited them to .

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #70 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 3:21pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:42am:
MeatHunta wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 10:22am:
Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 8:48pm:
Nobody knows if he has a current vested interest. He certainly hasn't come out with any public statements as to his current position.


Thanks Marty, I'm pleased we cleared that up. You agree that you have disparaged this person on the basis that he hasn't said that he hasn't got a current vested interest when there is no evidence that he does.

I think we need to raise the discussion above baseless personal attack and focus on the core issues  Smiley



There is evidence that he did have a vested interest and there is no evidence that he has divested himself of that vested interest. He was certainly promoting deer repellent when he was known to have a vested interest.


Marty Foote, how about sticking to the topic instead of using the thread as another soapbox to attack peoples credibility

This thread is about how to deal with DOC over the WARo issue, not rant about need for possum control, trapping is best, blah blah

You've got enough threads going on all that already
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #71 - Mar 11th, 2018 at 3:40pm
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That's goods new then, if the pellet counts are robust enough to use as a density measure.

How do DOC's pellet count methods compare to overseas methods where deer herds have been effectively managed for decades?

If the pellet counts do stack up, then it is a simple matter on deciding acceptable deer densities, for individual herds, at which different strategies are used e.g. Exclusive ground hunting, hind only aerial hunting, open slather aerial hunting and throw everything at the deer because they are out of control.

Once these levels are set the hunting community can then sign herd management agreements with DOC and get on with the job knowing that the extreme green elements have been neutralised for the time being.

Get signed herd management agreements and the current WARO dispute becomes no longer relevant and is a thing of the past.

Once herd management contracts are signed there will better buy-in from the hunting community and deer kills reported can be used with more confidence. As I understand it, overseas, pellet counts and deer kills, where it is compulsory to record every kill, are used to guide hunting and control strategies.


Marty, There is a project that's been underway for more than a year, to develop a Plan for sustainable deer management in the Ruahines
https://www.lnirdf.org.nz/page/505808
If the is successful or not, remains to be seen.
there are other "agreements", I gather ie whakatipu white tail etc

However, to expect that bow to pressure from hunters to entre is to agreements for sustainable deer management just because hunters say so, is a bit nieave
The whole WARO review of sustainable deer management fell over because DOC didn't want it.
contrary to what the NZDA was telling DOC, that they wanted a review

(This issue may yet be challenged in court.)
Its only by doing that, that DOC finally seems to listen

Getting hunters to actively support something is near impossible

IMO though, the problem isn't just with DOC. Or the influence of WARO in DOC decisions

its the apathy among hunters. partly wanting to actually support those advocating for their cause, but also the dislike for was appears to be more control over their hunting - ie Deer Management Plans etc

The failure to support the Game Council will come back to haunt hunters. They are battling not only DOC, but also a green Minister

If it was obvious the 50,000 or so hunters in NZ were vocally supporting the GAC, the recent debacle of a WARO review might not have happened

Peter Dunne did more for rec hunting than any govt previously. But what support did he get?

probably ditto for the NZDA. Although as an independent - non Govt organization, I think they should show more balls. If they had a bigger membership support that demanded that, then perhaps they would have more success

If its not the NZDA, then perhaps more hunters should be supporting the likes of the Sika Foundation, LNIRDF, or other like groups

Probably the places where hunters have got a better deal , has been where they work in cooperation with DOC, and don't constantly complain and whinge


  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #72 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 8:03am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 11th, 2018 at 3:40pm:
Quote:
That's goods new then, if the pellet counts are robust enough to use as a density measure.

How do DOC's pellet count methods compare to overseas methods where deer herds have been effectively managed for decades?

If the pellet counts do stack up, then it is a simple matter on deciding acceptable deer densities, for individual herds, at which different strategies are used e.g. Exclusive ground hunting, hind only aerial hunting, open slather aerial hunting and throw everything at the deer because they are out of control.

Once these levels are set the hunting community can then sign herd management agreements with DOC and get on with the job knowing that the extreme green elements have been neutralised for the time being.

Get signed herd management agreements and the current WARO dispute becomes no longer relevant and is a thing of the past.

Once herd management contracts are signed there will better buy-in from the hunting community and deer kills reported can be used with more confidence. As I understand it, overseas, pellet counts and deer kills, where it is compulsory to record every kill, are used to guide hunting and control strategies.


Marty, There is a project that's been underway for more than a year, to develop a Plan for sustainable deer management in the Ruahines
https://www.lnirdf.org.nz/page/505808
If the is successful or not, remains to be seen.
there are other "agreements", I gather ie whakatipu white tail etc

However, to expect that bow to pressure from hunters to entre is to agreements for sustainable deer management just because hunters say so, is a bit nieave
The whole WARO review of sustainable deer management fell over because DOC didn't want it.
contrary to what the NZDA was telling DOC, that they wanted a review

(This issue may yet be challenged in court.)
Its only by doing that, that DOC finally seems to listen

Getting hunters to actively support something is near impossible

IMO though, the problem isn't just with DOC. Or the influence of WARO in DOC decisions

its the apathy among hunters. partly wanting to actually support those advocating for their cause, but also the dislike for was appears to be more control over their hunting - ie Deer Management Plans etc

The failure to support the Game Council will come back to haunt hunters. They are battling not only DOC, but also a green Minister

If it was obvious the 50,000 or so hunters in NZ were vocally supporting the GAC, the recent debacle of a WARO review might not have happened

Peter Dunne did more for rec hunting than any govt previously. But what support did he get?

probably ditto for the NZDA. Although as an independent - non Govt organization, I think they should show more balls. If they had a bigger membership support that demanded that, then perhaps they would have more success

If its not the NZDA, then perhaps more hunters should be supporting the likes of the Sika Foundation, LNIRDF, or other like groups

Probably the places where hunters have got a better deal , has been where they work in cooperation with DOC, and don't constantly complain and whinge




TH, this:  https://www.lnirdf.org.nz/page/505808 ; and this   https://www.lnirdf.org.nz/blog/755960 ;  and this   https://www.lnirdf.org.nz/blog/757034

are all well and good as discussion documents go, however, discussion has been going on for over 30 years and no decisions have been made.

DOC wants the discussion to continue for as long as possible as DOC does not want to become committed to a wild deer herd management plan as a deer management plan entrenches a value put on deer that DOC has successfully convinced large sectors of the urban dwellers, with the help of extreme green elements like F&B, that if such a value is placed on deer then it is harder to justify describing deer as a pest and a danger to the overall health of the forest.

We all agree that a plan needs to be written and implemented. We disagree on how the initial draft plan should be written up. There are hundreds, probably thousands, of wild deer management plans that have been written and successfully implemented throughout the world. NZ does not need to reinvent the wheel.

I believe the recreational deer hunters need to write the initial draft management plan, that they think will suit their needs and also achieve the bio-diversity outcomes DOC wants. Then present the plan to DOC for comment and then fight over the bits that there is disagreement on until a final agreement has been arrived at.

The basic principles of wild deer herd management are universal throughout the world. The implementation does vary from habitat to habitat, but, the basic principles are that a desired deer density is set and if that density is exceeded then some form of control needs to take place.

Forget about WARO. With a good management plan in place, aerial hunting is a tool that can be used and the helicopter operators will become willing partners and not antagonists as the rules will be clearly set out.

Neither DOC or the helicopter operators are in a position to write an initial draft of the management plan. DOC can't write the plan as that would upset the current Minister and her F&B supporters. Commercial meat hunters can't write the plan as their whole focus is on short term profitability, with as many deer being taken during high prices as possible.

Recreational deer hunters are the only group that can actually write the initial draft of the management plan. If the plan is well written and uses all the factual elements, needed to satisfy everyone's stated needs, then the plan will eventually be adopted, even it it means there is some argy-bargy between the time of the initial draft plan being presented and the final plan being agreed to and signed off.

Set the target deer densities, using the information that is already known, with the proviso that these may change as more information comes to light. No animal management plan, either wild or domestic, is ever set in concrete and changes are made as new information comes available and circumstances change. So long as the basic principles are in place, to satisfy the needs of those concerned, then the details can be adjusted as time goes on.

The time for talk is well and truly over. It's now time to take action. Write a draft Ruahine Deer Management Plan, using the information currently available, and then fight like hell to stop the extreme green elements trying to destroy what is the only real solution to this decades old problem.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #73 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 8:19am
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Marty, A plan written that does not meet the statutory rules. Or DOC National Policy, wont get anywhere.
An initial Deer Management Plan was developed with help by Cam Speedy. It went no where. Not that it wasn't a good plan, in our opinion

Talking has been going on for 30 years, but the LNIRDF have been developing a Deer Management Plan for one year
which came about because of our challenge of DOCs WARO decisions. A first time in NZ.
Without buyin of the department and other stakeholders, (ie WARO), simply wont happen

And issues like deer densities, there isn't the current method for determining that. Or in fact what is the threshold for when deer control is needed. This is stuff that DOC is agreeing to develop with hunters, so that a Plan can mean something

anyway.
I'm off into the west cost bush for 3 weeks
. I'm more concerned if my rifle is sighted in right, or I've got enough tucker
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #74 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:00am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 8:19am:
Marty, A plan written that does not meet the statutory rules. Or DOC National Policy, wont get anywhere.
An initial Deer Management Plan was developed with help by Cam Speedy. It went no where. Not that it wasn't a good plan, in our opinion

Talking has been going on for 30 years, but the LNIRDF have been developing a Deer Management Plan for one year
which came about because of our challenge of DOCs WARO decisions. A first time in NZ.
Without buyin of the department and other stakeholders, (ie WARO), simply wont happen

And issues like deer densities, there isn't the current method for determining that. Or in fact what is the threshold for when deer control is needed. This is stuff that DOC is agreeing to develop with hunters, so that a Plan can mean something

anyway.
I'm off into the west cost bush for 3 weeks
. I'm more concerned if my rifle is sighted in right, or I've got enough tucker


You just hit the nail right on the head. DOC has convinced you and recreational deer hunters that there is no standard deer density measure that can be used.

Try telling that to the people that have written and implemented successful wild deer management plans, in other parts of the world, that do use deer density measures that can be relied upon.

The deer density measure debate is just another DOC delaying tactic and after that there will be another delaying tactic and so on.

Write the draft plan so that it does meet the statuary requirements and Bob's Your Uncle. Put everything on the table at the same time and do not let DOC dictate the terms of the discussion which they will drag out for as long as possible.

There is nothing you can do to stop a fight between deer hunters and the extreme green elements as they are never going to be in agreement. The idea that you wait until deer hunters and the likes of F&B agree, before you start writing a plan is a plan doomed to failure right from the start.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #75 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:19am
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You have listened Marty
The standard deer survey method determines changes in deer pellet frequency. NOT absolute numbers, or reliably, even a density indices. NZFS and DOC have tried to do that, but science advice is  its not reliable

Using the old method, it was reasonable to assume that very low frequency of pellets would equally very low deer numbers. But not reliably

and very high pellet frequency did not always equal very high deer numbers.

the guts of an animal management plan, is what is the threshold before intervention is needed. Currently with DOC, its any number. (to say allow WARO)

A threshold for intervention (ie what are the maximum deer numbers allowed)  is the most critical part of a plan, it keeps the govt managers honest, and gives hunters the target to maintain.

just like with possum control for TB or whatever. (wrightly or wrongly)

its nothing to do with DOC
There is a new method that's been developed, and that's the one that will be used. But the baseline hasn't been sorted yet, let along absolute densities

I've been involved in deer monitoring for 40 years, and like many field people, have been sceptical of the interpretation managers have put on the old method
I am still to be convinced that the new tier One method will be much better, but time will tell






  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #76 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:56am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 12th, 2018 at 9:19am:
You have listened Marty
The standard deer survey method determines changes in deer pellet frequency. NOT absolute numbers, or reliably, even a density indices. NZFS and DOC have tried to do that, but science advice is  its not reliable

Using the old method, it was reasonable to assume that very low frequency of pellets would equally very low deer numbers. But not reliably

and very high pellet frequency did not always equal very high deer numbers.

the guts of an animal management plan, is what is the threshold before intervention is needed. Currently with DOC, its any number. (to say allow WARO)

A threshold for intervention (ie what are the maximum deer numbers allowed)  is the most critical part of a plan, it keeps the govt managers honest, and gives hunters the target to maintain.

just like with possum control for TB or whatever. (wrightly or wrongly)

its nothing to do with DOC
There is a new method that's been developed, and that's the one that will be used. But the baseline hasn't been sorted yet, let along absolute densities

I've been involved in deer monitoring for 40 years, and like many field people, have been sceptical of the interpretation managers have put on the old method
I am still to be convinced that the new tier One method will be much better, but time will tell








That's all good then. What I read, from what you are saying, is that nothing can be finalised until a definite deer density measure number is established. And this will happen sometime in the future.

While this work is going on, there is nothing stopping the drafting of management plan with a space left for the final deer density number. The actual final deer density number doesn't have to be established before the plan is drafted.

I know exactly how DOC uses animal density measurements and how DOC shifts the goal posts if one measure doesn't suit their pre-determined goal. DOC are still trying to shift the goal posts in the trappers current discussions, with DOC now saying, after decades of stating definite animal density index figures, that the actual animal numbers are not that important and DOC is developing other ways of measuring animal control success. What DOC are now trying to argue, is that the final animal density measure is not how you measure how many animals have been killed and that other, indirect, measures should be used.

You need to tie DOC down to the basic principles of deer herd management and how that will be measured or DOC will keep moving the goal posts and the plan will never be finalised.

I say again, write the draft plan right now, do not wait for DOC to be satisfied that all their ducks are in a row as DOC will keep moving the ducks around every time you turn your back on them.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #77 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 10:24am
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Marty your tinfoil hat is on a touch tight this morning.

Grin Grin Grin

  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #78 - Mar 12th, 2018 at 12:26pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
Some else I just uncovered, is that

- DOC are using the latest deer monitoring methods and have data showing increasing deer numbers. - probly not rocket science

- re RHAs and other Closed/restricted areas that currently exist; DOC have told WARO that they can lodge special applications to shoot the likes of RHAs on a one off basis.

For those that currently hunt RHAs and the like, (like me), don't think they going to be safe from Helicopters indefinitely. If DOC have the data showing increasing deer numbers, and WARO make an application for permits, it could be bad news.

If you think it wont happen, get your head out of your arse. it happened in 2015 up here. Undecided

below is another monster that's gone for a ride under a chopper, from the west coast


I've no doubt that DoC would do so, but it seems the Act actually requires there to be evidence of harm from additional animal numbers, and not simply just increased numbers before any change from recreational hunting as the means of control in RHA's. .....

"where studies and investigations have shown that the presence of wild animals is detrimental to the maintenance of the land and vegetation or the natural waters flowing through the land in a satisfactory state"

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #79 - Mar 14th, 2018 at 7:15am
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I think DoC have been training Putin   Grin
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #80 - May 1st, 2018 at 2:37pm
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So l sent a letter on this matter to Eugenie Sage on 27 February, and received a reply on 19 March acknowledging my enquiry and advising I could expect a response from the minister 'shortly'. Still waiting today.

Not very flash from a member of the party who likes to assert its principles of open and respectful conduct?
  
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