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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) DOC renege on promised review of WARO (Read 6685 times)
Oscar
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #45 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:22pm
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Does that one look a lot like the stag from the recent NZHunter Adventures red roar episode?
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #46 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:30pm
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as I recall, venison prices have coming and going over last 10 years.
But the big one obviously was from the late 60s thru to the late 70s, and then moved onto live deer capture.
After live deer capture stopped, it was back to venison, which went on until the downturn - in 2003 or so. not sure bout when.

there will no doubt be another downturn, but the venison factories seem optomistic in the medium term [/quote]


do you think the prices will be good for another 5-10years?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #47 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:52pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
below is another monster that's gone for a ride under a chopper, from the west coast


In all my years I've never seen one like that - what a hell of a way to go.

It's hardly any wonder we get talked about overseas.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #48 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:57pm
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Oscar wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:22pm:
Does that one look a lot like the stag from the recent NZHunter Adventures red roar episode?

no its another, Oscar. west coast I gather

but they did get the big stag greg shot at and missed, then later on left it
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #49 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:00pm
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tw wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 8:30pm:
as I recall, venison prices have coming and going over last 10 years.
But the big one obviously was from the late 60s thru to the late 70s, and then moved onto live deer capture.
After live deer capture stopped, it was back to venison, which went on until the downturn - in 2003 or so. not sure bout when.

there will no doubt be another downturn, but the venison factories seem optomistic in the medium term



do you think the prices will be good for another 5-10years? [/quote]

dunno, not really up with  that. hope not Undecided
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #50 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:46pm
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Its all bullshit, 1080 is bullshit, the reason for dropping it is bullshit, the waro debate is bullshit, hunting organisations claiming to have hunters interests at heart is bullshit (apart from most of the members that finance them), All these issues are not about whats right or wrong but instead about money and controlling people. There ya go, all the issues hunters and self sustaining people are frustrated with explained.
  

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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #51 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:57pm
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Sika 9 wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:46pm:
Its all bullshit, 1080 is bullshit, the reason for dropping it is bullshit, the waro debate is bullshit, hunting organisations claiming to have hunters interests at heart is bullshit (apart from most of the members that finance them), All these issues are not about whats right or wrong but instead about money and controlling people. There ya go, all the issues hunters and self sustaining people are frustrated with explained.
                   


Bloody nice rant mate - you just pulled all the bullshit fluff off everything and left all the pustules and sores exposed.

And I wish I had the balls to say that.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #52 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 5:52am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 5:38pm:
UPDATE
we have received copious amounts of emails, documents from an OIA request. from DOC

seems

-Until September 2017, a full review was planned (since 2015)
-a WARO representative complained to DOC and the review was canned,

-one of the complaints, was DOc intending to seek "sustainable deer management". They were threatened with legal action, if they didn't change it

-WARO don't want any more Boom and Bust, but are happy theyre now in the beginnings of a Boom, and inevitably, will come the bust. But don't want anyone telling them a more sustainable way of operating

-The GAC boycotted the meetings and raised their objections to the reneging on the review with DOC, quite strongly

-DOC replied the the discussions with rec hunters ate the 3 meetings (NZDA and LNIRDF only) did not show the same level of concern as the GAC was expressing. Except for the LNIRDF, who did mack there objections known Smiley

-it seems that the apparent passive response by the NZDA (Weathered was there, I don't think he was too passive!)) has allowed DOC to minimise the hunter backlash

-DOC held meetings with WARO only, but hunters were excluded. But in the hunter meetings, WARO were invited. that amounted to a separate lobbying opportunity for WARO, something hunters have never been given by DOC. This is why DOC lost the High Court challenge, because of favouritism shown to WARO

-its obvious DOC decided to cancel the review, because the commercial WARo guys said they were happy. (a bit more money in venison now) - not very good business management IMO Undecided

The GAC appear to be persuing the issue with the government, and not letting it go. I think they feel shafted by DOC

Looks like another legal challenge coming up Undecided


Hi TH,

1) Are the minutes of the meetings you are talking about available for public consumption?

2) What is deemed "sustainable" and how is a "sustainable" deer population being measured?

3) Has there been any discussions on what a firm deer population density should be and how this deer population should be measured? If this work has been done, it should be a simple matter to decide when ground hunters have exclusive hunting rights, when aerial hunting can take place and when DOC needs to step in with alternative measures.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #53 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 7:30am
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Quote:
Hi TH,

1) Are the minutes of the meetings you are talking about available for public consumption?

2) What is deemed "sustainable" and how is a "sustainable" deer population being measured?

3) Has there been any discussions on what a firm deer population density should be and how this deer population should be measured? If this work has been done, it should be a simple matter to decide when ground hunters have exclusive hunting rights, when aerial hunting can take place and when DOC needs to step in with alternative measures.



will post them but not sure where/how. in PDF documents

The sustainable issue was what we expected to be determined
DOC got cold feet when told by WARO rep that the WAC act did not provide for Sustainable population mgt. only "Concerted Action", and threatened legal action

again, a review would have obliged DOC to detail what deer populations met the threshold for reduction, but they would have had difficulty

both these issues are currently being debated with Lower North Islan DOC and WARO in the Ruahine Deer Plan. this plan has a goal of Sustainable management of deer and one of the tasks is the identifiy thresholds for deer control
as yet are still wading thru this, but I think next meeting DOC might front up with more detail

reality is, all ecosystems are different, and what populations are Sustainable and which arnt, and DOC don't know what leval of deer population is acceptable

so they have taken the view the WAC act requires them to allow commercial and recreational deer control, anywhere otherthan Closed areas

the Ruahine Deer Plan includes a more intensive look at monitoring deer and impacts, something that does not generally exist in rest of NZ

a more intensive measurement of vegetation will also have to be introduced as well, to measure impacts

the old deer pellet frequency method has been thrown out so we are starting with a new baseline of deer population (abundance) that also means it wont be until these new baseline measurements are remeasured, that deffinite conclusions can be made about deer densities and their impacts

so we found DOC really knows very little, and that the Ruahine exercise will probably be a model for deer control elsewhere

if it results in real sustainable deer management, then that's a bonus for hunters and its why we are participating

one thing, the WAC act does not give priority to either WARO or rec hunters. so DOC take the view that hunters have to compete with WARO. hunters don't have exclusive rights. although places where WARO is closed, are in fact exclusive rights (RHAs etc) so its not a black and white thing

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #54 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:30am
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Thats why hunting groups need to get in and work closer together. CNISF (sika foundation) have worked with DOC to open up areas that were closed for chopper landings and have organized hunts to control numbers. These are very well supported by hunters from around the country. The long term goal is to improve hunting experiences by having better quality animals  and roar hunting and improving the environment the deer live in and  to support better quality animals with better out comes for hunters and DOC.
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #55 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 11:38am
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Ruger260 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 8:30am:
Thats why hunting groups need to get in and work closer together. CNISF (sika foundation) have worked with DOC to open up areas that were closed for chopper landings and have organized hunts to control numbers. These are very well supported by hunters from around the country. The long term goal is to improve hunting experiences by having better quality animals  and roar hunting and improving the environment the deer live in and  to support better quality animals with better out comes for hunters and DOC.


Ruger206, seems theres also more interest by hunters in what happens to sika, than does with Red deer. probably because of the efforts of the sika foundation

ditto with the tahr, whitetail etc

Red Deer hunting occurs nearly everywhere, and doesn't seem to create the same interest about their management
lot of reasons for that, I guess
smaller herds are easier to get hutners involved, as the sika foundation have donne

red deer is mainly site specific. eg the Rakaia herd, Molesworth etc
But they are the most commonly hunted species and really typify NZ hunting

I think when all this impacts more on hunters, (like a shortage of stags in the Rakaia,) then there might be more hunter concern.

NZDA are in the best position to get hunters into action, but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #56 - Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:18pm
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Correct the Sika area is the most widely hunted area going by DOC permits.  A university study showed an annual spend of around $18,000,000.00 per year. The LNIRDF are doing great work as well, and of course the Wapiti Foundation.  CNISF have the herd of special interest with GAC now so its a waiting game to see if the Minister of Conservation will sign it off.  I know the Wapiti Foundation and other groups are watching with interest. The Sika HOSI document is over 50 pages in length and very comprehensive.
Its about working collectively and you have to engage DOC as well to show the conservation benefits.  The CNISF is also looking at using  Good nature traps around the campsite areas where organized hunts are, there are nearly 20 sites which have been opened up and at the moment there are members out in the Kaweka's doing pellet count surveys. Plenty going on behind the scenes.   
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #57 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:06am
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Ruger260 wrote on Mar 9th, 2018 at 3:18pm:
Correct the Sika area is the most widely hunted area going by DOC permits.  A university study showed an annual spend of around $18,000,000.00 per year. The LNIRDF are doing great work as well, and of course the Wapiti Foundation.  CNISF have the herd of special interest with GAC now so its a waiting game to see if the Minister of Conservation will sign it off.  I know the Wapiti Foundation and other groups are watching with interest. The Sika HOSI document is over 50 pages in length and very comprehensive.
Its about working collectively and you have to engage DOC as well to show the conservation benefits.  The CNISF is also looking at using  Good nature traps around the campsite areas where organized hunts are, there are nearly 20 sites which have been opened up and at the moment there are members out in the Kaweka's doing pellet count surveys. Plenty going on behind the scenes.   


While I applaud the work the Sika Foundation is doing. It is, quite simply, not enough.

The Sika Foundation talks about doing pellet counts and LNIRDF says that DOC has stated that pellet counts have been rejected as a measure of deer density. All measures of deer density, that are used as a management tool elsewhere, are automatically rejected, by DOC, for the simple reason that DOC's end game is the eradication of all wild deer in NZ and committing to the management of deer herds makes the future eradication goal harder to achieve.

The Sika Foundation appears to be getting somewhere, except that the results aren't that flash. 1080 is still being poured, in ever increasing tonnages for TB possum control, over the sika herds, even though everyone, in the know, knows that 1080 is not achieving the possum kills claimed. Could this be something to do with the fact that one of the Sika advocates invented the deer repellent, that doesn't work, and doesn't want to relinquish the vested interest he has in 1080 application.

Deer hunters have to put DOC on notice that they are going to end up managing the deer herds, under contract to DOC, and on their own terms, not DOC's. DOC will be there to oversee and will step in if the deer herd management is not up to scratch. This is the stance that contract trappers have taken. The contract trapper battle actually has very little to do with wild animal control and has more to do with displacing the people employed by the 1080 industry who do not want to be displaced.

GAC is a government construct designed to look like DOC is interested in wild deer herd management. Without funding GAC can, quite simply, not do its job. An example I can use that parallels GAC is the setting up of Special Education (SE) that was supposed to help kids with leaning difficulties like dyslexia. When SE was set up I was involved with helping these kids and we all thought, great the government is listening. What we found out was that the government was listening, but not to the kids needing help, and was only interested in appearing to be doing the right thing to the voters at large. I know this because of the pushing I was doing, to get the kids the help that was promised, and I ended talking with the head of SE who eventually told me that the government had only fronted up with enough money to set up an office and had not provided any funds to actually do any of the work promised. GAC is the same and is nothing more than a government constructed fob-off to Peter Dunn to make it appear that his pre-election promises were being partially addressed in return for his essential vote to keep the government, of the day, in power.

Recreational hunters, of all persuasions, need to join forces and set up herd management plans and then force DOC to accept them. The idea that DOC is going to somehow set up their own wild animal management plans, that will inhibit the end goal of eradication, is pure fantasy and is not going to happen. The only thing that can happen is for the hunting community to become proactive, write up herd management plans, that allow for the biodiversity outcomes DOC says it wants, and then force DOC to sign on the dotted line.

  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #58 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 12:05pm
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Hi Ruger260,

I've visited the CNISF website. I can't find a link to to the Sika herd management plan.

Are you able to provide me with a link to the plan that has been submitted to GAC?
  
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Re: DOC renege on promised review of WARO
Reply #59 - Mar 10th, 2018 at 4:09pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:06am:
Could this be something to do with the fact that one of the Sika advocates invented the deer repellent, that doesn't work, and doesn't want to relinquish the vested interest he has in 1080 application.


Marty, where is your evidence that deer repellent does not work? There have been a number of peer reviewed studies published that show that it does. Can you explain what is wrong with those studies that the referees missed?

You maintain that an un-named advocate for Sika has a vested interest in 1080 application. Do you have evidence of that vested interest, or is it simply conjecture on your part?

Marty Foote wrote on Mar 10th, 2018 at 11:06am:
Deer hunters have to put DOC on notice that they are going to end up managing the deer herds, under contract to DOC, and on their own terms, not DOC's. DOC will be there to oversee and will step in if the deer herd management is not up to scratch.

Recreational hunters, of all persuasions, need to join forces and set up herd management plans and then force DOC to accept them. The idea that DOC is going to somehow set up their own wild animal management plans, that will inhibit the end goal of eradication, is pure fantasy and is not going to happen. The only thing that can happen is for the hunting community to become proactive, write up herd management plans, that allow for the biodiversity outcomes DOC says it wants, and then force DOC to sign on the dotted line.


That sounds like a reasonable idea, but how do hunters force DOC to do that? Hunters' ability to do so seems to be nil going by your opinion of DOC, especially if their end plan really is eradication. What bargaining chips do hunters hold?
  
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