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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) 9 Wapiti (Read 17352 times)
wapiti1
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9 Wapiti
Feb 19th, 2018 at 7:52am
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I was speaking to a respected prominent shop owner in the weekend who earlier in the week had an Australian hunting party in his shop. The mix group of both Male and Females were boasting they had just been hunting in Fiordland and had shot 9 wapiti.

The shop owner was too disgusted to continue the conversation with them, so where they were or how they got there is un known.

It would be interesting if anyone else crossed paths with this group? If it is in fact correct that they shot 9 Wapiti then its disgraceful.



  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #1 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 9:51am
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I’m on the larger Aussie hunting forums and nothing like that has been posted yet but I’ll keep an eye out .

I have to say though that it won’t be just me giving the poster an absolute gob full , there’ll be plenty of others online horrified also !!

Ie
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #2 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 10:52am
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Been in to the Wapiti areas a number of times and have never fired a shot at a Wapiti.
Can't imagine why any group would kill 9 of them.
I just look at them and think "Do I really want to taste Wapiti that bad that I would waste so much meat" as the buggers are huge and, as a solo hunter, I'd need to be in there for a month to finish a back leg.
Met a group of Aussies in a hut once that had shot a 9 or 10"  bull, taken just the pitiful head and then gotten lippy with me when I wouldn't share the meat I'd taken off a juvenile nanny.   Apparently it was "too hard" to take some meat.
They got a mouthful, not of meat.
Sheer ignorance.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #3 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 10:57am
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I have heard there were two guides taking Aussies in and they have shot a number of young animals, immature bulls/stags this year (January). I have been told by two people totally separate of one another that this occurred - it may be just the bush telegraph running rife, or maybe some legitimacy in the stories. If the latter is the case, it's a bit disappointing.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #4 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:41am
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If it's true, what a bunch of wankers!

@JoshC, were they Nz guides? They would need a concession to guide in the FN Park?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #5 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:01pm
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outdoorlad wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:41am:
They would need a concession to guide in the FN Park?


On a side note - Even with a concession, they'd be unable to guide within the Glaisnock Wilderness Zone (where I hear that this all went down), given that no commercial activity may take place here. 

We were all fired up about filming an episode for our new Hunters Club series in there this year but now have to change our plans, which is pretty gutting, although not as gutting as hearing about a bunch of Aussies culling immature Wapiti for no good reason.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #6 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:21pm
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I guees they couldv just shot one and taken all the meat,but that would be too hard to carry amongst auzzies. Angry

  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #7 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:35pm
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outdoorlad wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:41am:
If it's true, what a bunch of wankers!

@JoshC, were they Nz guides? They would need a concession to guide in the FN Park?


Sorry I don't know, all I know is what I wrote above.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #8 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:40pm
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From my observations we aren't short of applications for a block, someone correct me if I am wrong?

As arguably the Southern Hemispheres top hunting experience how about foreigners front up $10,000 or more should they successful.  Otherwise what benefit is there in having them throw their hat in the ring?

If the economics are such that we rely on foreign money at the current rate I would retract the above comment otherwise... bugga em.


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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #9 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 2:26pm
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LOVETT wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:40pm:
From my observations we aren't short of applications for a block, someone correct me if I am wrong?

As arguably the Southern Hemispheres top hunting experience how about foreigners front up $10,000 or more should they successful.  Otherwise what benefit is there in having them throw their hat in the ring?

If the economics are such that we rely on foreign money at the current rate I would retract the above comment otherwise... bugga em.


Dan   


I would agree.

It is also an attitude that is bred through continuous unsuccessful applications. Those who continuously miss the ballot will go in outside the ballot and shoot something because they might never get the opportunity otherwise. Or when it has taken someone 10 years to be successful then they might not fancy the idea of missing out for another 10 years to get the opportunity again. That is an attitude being developed in a lot of hunters when they watch others continue to get blocks including foreigners and yet they continue to miss out.

I don’t know much about the ballot but perhaps the system needs to share the love and avoid developing this culture? If one applicant has been successful 6 times in the last 10 years and another has missed out for 10 years in a row then why should that first applicant get a block?

Just a thought.

  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #10 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 2:27pm
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On topic however. 9 Wapiti. What the heck would anyone do with 9 Wapiti?
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #11 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 3:08pm
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Dangershaw wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:01pm:
outdoorlad wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 11:41am:
They would need a concession to guide in the FN Park?


On a side note - Even with a concession, they'd be unable to guide within the Glaisnock Wilderness Zone (where I hear that this all went down), given that no commercial activity may take place here. 

We were all fired up about filming an episode for our new Hunters Club series in there this year but now have to change our plans, which is pretty gutting, although not as gutting as hearing about a bunch of Aussies culling immature Wapiti for no good reason.


That's a shame you guys won't be doing an episode. do you know if the FWF know about this carry on?

This is Another reason why foreign hunter access to places like this, wakatipu whitetail herd & the Tahr blocks etc should be tightly controlled/restricted.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #12 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 3:36pm
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stagstalker wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 2:26pm:
LOVETT wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 1:40pm:
From my observations we aren't short of applications for a block, someone correct me if I am wrong?

As arguably the Southern Hemispheres top hunting experience how about foreigners front up $10,000 or more should they successful.  Otherwise what benefit is there in having them throw their hat in the ring?

If the economics are such that we rely on foreign money at the current rate I would retract the above comment otherwise... bugga em.


Dan   


I would agree.

It is also an attitude that is bred through continuous unsuccessful applications. Those who continuously miss the ballot will go in outside the ballot and shoot something because they might never get the opportunity otherwise. Or when it has taken someone 10 years to be successful then they might not fancy the idea of missing out for another 10 years to get the opportunity again. That is an attitude being developed in a lot of hunters when they watch others continue to get blocks including foreigners and yet they continue to miss out.


Yeah, its a form of the "Everyone gets a medal" culture. A form of narcissm perhaps. Me, me, me.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #13 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 4:03pm
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Trout wrote on Feb 19th, 2018 at 12:21pm:
I guees they couldv just shot one and taken all the meat,but that would be too hard to carry amongst auzzies. Angry


No Surprises there
Angry
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #14 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 6:46pm
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I follow a reasonably well known hunting guide on social media who has worn a lot of stick on this. He put up his side of the story a couple of nights ago, went something along the lines of he took in a group of three guys (cant remember if they were aussies or not), and they took one 10 pt wap that was missing bey tines. Head was taken out for mounting and some meat taken. He's been getting a fair bit of shit for supposedly guiding a bunch of aussies who knocked over some spikers and immature waps, but he wasn't involved. Every chance there were other hunting guides in there that were invloved. Not saying this guys word is gospel, but thought id share it on here as some of you more experienced folk (see old bastards) may not be all up to date on the ole social media.
Cheers, Will
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #15 - Feb 19th, 2018 at 8:15pm
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also heard this about multiple young bulls shot but no number mentioned but was told a local guy had been paid to take them in, whether that ment drop off pickup or guided I do not know.

was a couple of kiwi guys in there at the same time for a couple of weeks staking out a big boy and were succesful but was a well earned and mature trophy very high DS they watched and filmed for many days before taking it.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #16 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:13am
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A mate of mine took the 2 kiwi guys in gonehunting and they did shoot a mature trophy that they watched and videoed, they also took a video of the aussie guys and there guide shooting an immature wap bull
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #17 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:51am
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Huntdeepsouth wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:13am:
A mate of mine took the 2 kiwi guys in gonehunting and they did shoot a mature trophy that they watched and videoed, they also took a video of the aussie guys and there guide shooting an immature wap bull


Well done to them, Any chance of seeing a photo/video of that big bull?

They should pass the other video onto the FWF & the guide should be outed.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #18 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:13am
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well to tell you the truth,,having been in the heart of the area and seen quite a number of reds even with the waro going on then a few animals been shot is no big deal,,just leaves more tucker for the cunning old bulls,,i believe more animals should be shot in there a la colin davey theory
how come the last 50 inches was shot when the area held a very low population??????
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #19 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:14am
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I thought the core wapiti area was supposed to be closed from the 1st of Feb? Any guide or operator would know this.

Bit of a lark if Kiwis that draw a ballot and foot the expense of donations,  travel etc, Spend 10 days walking past a heap of cracking young animals. Then read that those young Bulls may have been cleaned up by someone pre bugle and that someone profited from it.

I for one have been very lucky with the ballot system.
But I know guys that have not, and have read of plenty guys on this forum that have not.


I have received flak on this forum when suggesting this in the past. "Why the hell would you let international people enter the ballot" Its madness.

Its the same with the Thar Ballot.  The current demand for blocks from NZ hunters far out ways supply.

Is this political correctness gone mad? or am I just being a selfish bastard?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #20 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:27am
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wapiti 1 the kiwi guys I know of were in there the last 2 weeks of january, if the filmed the aussies at same time as above comment suggests then it was all legit.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #21 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 9:11am
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Being Australians theres a big chance the story was Bull Shit..
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #22 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 9:14am
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Out of curiosity, is there a guesstimate of the numbers of good blooded wapiti in the park?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #23 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:30am
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I went to a deer stalkers meeting late last year and there was a lot of talk about aussies doing a lot of no good in the wap blocks one guy showed a photo of a bunch of aussies who had had a big bomb up all standing there with a heap of heads in front on then thinking they were heroes !! all young animals. I think they had said to someone it was a once in a life time trip so did not care about looking after our herd  Angry Angry because they were never coming back, bloody tossers!!! There was a lot of talk at the meeting about something needing to change with the ballots and overseas interests in the ballot it is only going to get a lot more pressure as time goes on.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #24 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:36am
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I bet they shot them underarm
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #25 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 3:38pm
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As an Aussie I'm disappointed in the actions of some of my countrymen, but there is poor natured folk amongst any crowd.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #26 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 5:44pm
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Hearing this all too often regarding Aussy hunters unfortunately. I know that there are good and bad everywhere but this thread is getting a bit too common. There should be no one in there pre rut IMO. We should definitely be charging more to overseas hunters and some of that should be going in to more policing.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #27 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:20pm
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I have seen a photo on instagram of a female aussie hunter with a  pretty young looking 12, taken from the Glaisnock by the looks of it. 

I agree with others that there needs to be a change on the Ballot applications for all tahr/roar ballots, residents only.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #28 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:30pm
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Southstag wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:20pm:
I have seen a photo on instagram of a female aussie hunter with a  pretty young looking 12, taken from the Glaisnock by the looks of it. 

I agree with others that there needs to be a change on the Ballot applications for all tahr/roar ballots, residents only.


So you never want to hunt overseas?
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #29 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:39pm
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Never said I didn’t want to hunt over seas, although I think I would be more than happy if I only got to hunt the southern alps and wouldn’t be put out at all if locals abroad had preference over non residents either.  And I have no issue with any non residents coming to hunt doc land out of the ballot periods, but stand by the idea of residents only on ballots.  Smiley
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #30 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 9:29pm
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Im not a Wap hunter, but can see where the agro is coming from, and understand the desire to block foreign hunters.

Possibly a reasonable compromise would be one or max two overseas hunters and hunt a block as guests, accompanying NZ hunters?

Not sure how it could work, if they know kiwi hunters and are on their ticket, could be one option, perhaps there is a secondary draw with a Ivey number of spots.  I wouldn't think a higher $ value should be an issue either.

Plenty of other doc land to hunt for free if they desire.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #31 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 5:13am
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the real trouble is it is not a ballot issue, they were in there jan when the park is open to everybody,kiwi or not
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #32 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 6:54am
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wazza56 wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:30pm:
Southstag wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:20pm:
I have seen a photo on instagram of a female aussie hunter with a  pretty young looking 12, taken from the Glaisnock by the looks of it. 

I agree with others that there needs to be a change on the Ballot applications for all tahr/roar ballots, residents only.


So you never want to hunt overseas?


Yes but I would front up with the dollars.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #33 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:12am
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Are Aussies any more guilty of pre roar stuff, than kiwis? I somehow doubt it
this has nothing to do with the Ballot system.
Until the herd is declared an HOSI, this wont change. Then there will be all the whinging about "its my right to hunt whenever blah blah..."
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #34 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:21am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:12am:
Are Aussies any more guilty of pre roar stuff, than kiwis? I somehow doubt it
this has nothing to do with the Ballot system.
Until the herd is declared an HOSI, this wont change. Then there will be all the whinging about "its my right to hunt whenever blah blah..."


That won't happen. How long has the Game Animal Council been around? 3-4 years? If they haven't declared the wapiti herd a Herd of Special Importance by now it won't happen.
Anyone heard anything from them recently? Sorry, but I think we got sold a lame duck.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #35 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:38am
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Randomly pick a couple of blocks x periods each year (eg Worsley, 2nd period), set them aside for non-residents, and auction them. All the rest for residents.

Limits the overseas pressure and raises funds for FWF.

I don't think we should completely exclude non-residents, but I also think we should limit their access and charge more. Pretty much the case everywhere else in the world
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #36 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 8:02am
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Kiwi seem to have an aversion to charging enough whether it be for use of  airports, SAR, accommodation, and the natural resources. Its a wierd thing, like we want to please everyone because of our generous spirit and ingrained culteral willingness to help people, yet when the reality of overuse of resource becomes apparent, we are quick to have a quiet winge.

As Oscar says, there is not another country in the world that offers so much very cheaply or free.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #37 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 8:42am
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if non-residents were excluded on the pretense that this would never happen again the hypocrisy will be palpable when it happens again.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #38 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 8:50am
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headcase wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 8:02am:
Kiwi seem to have an aversion to charging enough whether it be for use of  airports, SAR, accommodation, and the natural resources. Its a wierd thing, like we want to please everyone because of our generous spirit and ingrained culteral willingness to help people, yet when the reality of overuse of resource becomes apparent, we are quick to have a quiet winge.

As Oscar says, there is not another country in the world that offers so much very cheaply or free.


Yip
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #39 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 8:59am
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wazza56 wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:30pm:
Southstag wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:20pm:
I have seen a photo on instagram of a female aussie hunter with a  pretty young looking 12, taken from the Glaisnock by the looks of it. 

I agree with others that there needs to be a change on the Ballot applications for all tahr/roar ballots, residents only.


So you never want to hunt overseas?


Southstag makes a pretty valid point here. then for someone

To say "so you never want to hunt overseas" misses the point.

Aussies would be screaming bloody murder if this was happening over there. 
'
As I have said earlier I believe The ballot should only be for Kiwis

Though some good points have been raised about overseas hunters paying say $10000 a block. This money could be used by the fwf.

Hunting anything of quality overseas usually cost a shitload

Im sure there are some  aussies out there that are feeling they are being branded a bit harshly on this thread . But there is definately an element of aussies with " a who gives a shit attitude "going on if they are coming over here and taking large numbers of  young pre bugle animals.



  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #40 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 9:13am
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Wapiti 1 It does happen here in Vic all the time immature stags being shot but no we wouldn't be screaming blue murder just have to read this thread to see that happening!
We don't have waro and 1080 controlling deer numbers so there are a lot more deer avalliable for rec hunters
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #41 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 9:14am
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Im sure there are some  aussies out there that are feeling they are being branded a bit harshly on this thread . But there is definately an element of aussies with " a who gives a shit attitude "going on if they are coming over here and taking large numbers of  young pre bugle animals.


Maybe those Aussies have been reading the quotes from Kiwi hunters on here ... "If it's brown it's down"
There are shit people in all walks of life, regardless of the country
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #42 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 9:33am
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Very true. We have our fair share of ratbags. And im sure there are many good aussie hunters to.

I stand by my earlier comments about the  ballots being for kiwis only though. Too many people missing out  year after year.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #43 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 10:33am
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wapiti1 wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 8:59am:
wazza56 wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 8:30pm:
Southstag wrote on Feb 20th, 2018 at 7:20pm:
I have seen a photo on instagram of a female aussie hunter with a  pretty young looking 12, taken from the Glaisnock by the looks of it. 

I agree with others that there needs to be a change on the Ballot applications for all tahr/roar ballots, residents only.


So you never want to hunt overseas?


Southstag makes a pretty valid point here. then for someone

To say "so you never want to hunt overseas" misses the point.

Aussies would be screaming bloody murder if this was happening over there. 
'
As I have said earlier I believe The ballot should only be for Kiwis

Though some good points have been raised about overseas hunters paying say $10000 a block. This money could be used by the fwf.

Hunting anything of quality overseas usually cost a shitload

Im sure there are some  aussies out there that are feeling they are being branded a bit harshly on this thread . But there is definately an element of aussies with " a who gives a shit attitude "going on if they are coming over here and taking large numbers of  young pre bugle animals.




Totally agree . And why should kiwis miss out on ballots .
Aussies have far more country over there than the kiwis have at home.
Kiwis first i say.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #44 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 11:13am
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If NSW hunting permits for non residents are anything to go by you as a no resident must

""Visitors must be accompanied
While on a hunt, all holders of a Visitor's licence must also be accompanied at all times by a holder of a full NSW game hunting licence. ""

and you must pay A$125 for the permit.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #45 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 11:33am
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until the status of deer and other game animals in NZ is changed nothing much will change as to it's my right to shoot what I like and when. I think some might be surprised how many Kiwi hunters are entering these blocks pre ballot but it is kept pretty quiet these days due to the backlash. Even good heads don't get reported like they used to it's become a very secretive area. This thread pops up every year yet blocks are handed back in and some have been hard to fill some years and not hunted some periods, FWF even went on FB last year to fill them. Until NZ hunters wake up and get some political clout not much is going to change as that's the way these things are changed in the rest of the world.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #46 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 12:04pm
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headcase wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 8:02am:
Kiwi seem to have an aversion to charging enough whether it be for use of  airports, SAR, accommodation, and the natural resources. Its a wierd thing, like we want to please everyone because of our generous spirit and ingrained culteral willingness to help people, yet when the reality of overuse of resource becomes apparent, we are quick to have a quiet winge.

As Oscar says, there is not another country in the world that offers so much very cheaply or free.


Theres a pretty reasonable explanation for that..  when you charge people and particularly when you charge a lot, you are re-establishing a class system based simply on those that are resourced and those that aren't.
That flies in the face of the egalitarian ethos that hunting and fishing (and in general society) was based upon in this country.

In saying that, local resources that become high demand need to be allocated firstly to the resident population.  To do other than that is simply an attack on the local residents rights to access, which in effect becomes non-egalitarian for locals, on the basis of application of broad egalitarian principles benefiting non locals.

Yes install substantive fees for non residents, and yes allocate to locals before opening to non-residents.

Another thing.  I have hunted West Coast Roar blocks for 30 years...  except in the last 8 or so....  I have only had one trip as a tag along with another block holder.  I have not won a ballot block down there for the last 6 years running, and previous to that we were in every year.

I am getting a lot sick of paying application fees for unsucessful ballots.  Frankly its a rorte, administration fees should be collected on successful allocation of blocks not on application.  Ultimately that is inequitable on those that seem to be blessed with my success ratios... 

  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #47 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 3:34pm
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MY 2c...

Step 1/ Start looking after the herd ! Really looking after it !!

Step 2/ Introduce a tag system . Every Kiwi who wants one gets one ( and only one) You can't sell it , trade it, give it too a mate it's yours ! Loose it too bad , you only get one and it has a bar code on it .

Step 3/ Still run the ballot for everyone and if a foreigner ( i'll stop bashing just the Aussies ) wins they can buy a tag ( $5000 , $10000 etc but they only get one ) The tag must be placed around the antlers as soon as possible after the kill , it cannot be removed ! You can also add that at least 25% of the animal must be taken for meat ( it's an isolated place so maybe this is too much ??) like in the US

Step 4/ Use this money to fund proper game wardens who actually live out bush during this period and enforce the rules , I watched a show where some wardens in the US new that a certain group of hunters was doing the wrong thing ( shooting pre opening day) so they tracked them for 3 days and caught them in the act they all got huge fines and 2 were jailed !! Impressive !! which brings me to step 5.

Step 5/ Impose big fines for breaches in the rules e.g. $25000 hell make it $50 000 and don't make the maximum fines make them mandatory that way no soft hearted judge will let them off with the old wet bus ticket slap.  It doesn't matter what the fine is cause none on here will break the rules will they..?? Use these fines to help with covering the cost of game warden also !!


So now you control the shooting because who's going to waste there tag on a substandard animals early incase they see a trophy later in the period , you also gain some funds for enforcement. There are other issues like controlling herd quality but i'm sure there is an easy enough solution to that also... 

anyway that's my 2c but i bet a whole lot of you guys won't like it as i'm getting a,  it's ok to regulate the  foreigners so long as it doesn't effect me vibe ! But if your wanting to get a great Wapiti herd going there must be a bit of pain for all

ie

ps. bring in some decent blood lines also ( DOC will hate that bit ) But if your trying to sell a world class experience and lets face it Fiordland is world class or better you need a better herd then people will pay $10 000 + per tag.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #48 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 3:55pm
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Being a game warden would be an interesting job.  Smiley
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #49 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 4:03pm
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Agreed !!

  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #50 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 4:51pm
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Well said ie.  Smiley How many bulls does each person need to shoot? If you play by the rules then you have nothing to worry about ay. It is good enough for trout licences. What is the difference?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #51 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 5:42pm
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Only shooting the big ones lessons the overall value of the gene pool in the herd.

call it un-natural selection.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35462335
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #52 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 5:43pm
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With a trout license you have limits on what you can take/keep for the area you fish. And if you get caught breaking those rules, you usually have a court appearance or please explain.
With a free hunting permit and no limit on what you can shoot, extremely rare to face court. That is the difference in a nut shell! Smiley
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #53 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 5:49pm
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Huntsouth wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 5:43pm:
With a trout license you have limits on what you can take/keep for the area you fish. And if you get caught breaking those rules, you usually have a court appearance or please explain.
With a free hunting permit and no limit on what you can shoot, extremely rare to face court. That is the difference in a nut shell! Smiley


Yes and human nature not being a thing of perfection..  Roll Eyes

expect more of the same.

Id put money on it its not just Aussies abusing all the hard work that has gone into preserving these magnificent animals in a world class piece of New Zealand.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #54 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:16pm
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headcase wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 5:49pm:
Huntsouth wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 5:43pm:
With a trout license you have limits on what you can take/keep for the area you fish. And if you get caught breaking those rules, you usually have a court appearance or please explain.
With a free hunting permit and no limit on what you can shoot, extremely rare to face court. That is the difference in a nut shell! Smiley


Yes and human nature not being a thing of perfection..  Roll Eyes

expect more of the same.

Id put money on it its not just Aussies abusing all the hard work that has gone into preserving these magnificent animals in a world class piece of New Zealand.


very true HC, worst offenders are kiwis at ballot time just gotta see the boats at teanau downs when they come out at the end of their trip. litterally hundreds of antlers come out through the bugle every year.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #55 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 7:45pm
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headcase wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 5:42pm:
Only shooting the big ones lessons the overall value of the gene pool in the herd.

call it un-natural selection.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35462335


Not quite sure I agree HC

The big ones have spent the last 5-7 years spreading the seed through the gene pool .. there job is essentially done ..

There will need to be something done about the crap heads , again maybe this could be in the Game Wardens job description ...

Ie
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #56 - Feb 22nd, 2018 at 9:08am
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wapiti1 wrote on Feb 21st, 2018 at 9:33am:
Very true. We have our fair share of ratbags. And im sure there are many good aussie hunters to.

I stand by my earlier comments about the  ballots being for kiwis only though. Too many people missing out  year after year.


More than our 'fair share' now that the '501's are being sent here!!  Grin  Grin
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #57 - Feb 22nd, 2018 at 10:01am
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In the USA they have a points system for their balloted hunting. Each time a hunter enters a ballot he gets a point, anyone who gets to a certain number of points without drawing a ballot gets awarded one.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #58 - Feb 22nd, 2018 at 8:42pm
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Don't knock the Ballot system.
Its not those of us that go in year after year that bomb up on young animals.If you win lotto are you banned from buying a ticket the following week.
For those that continually miss out there is always the 4th period if you are that dedicated to hunting waps come and join me this year 4th period.
Remember there are 25 blocks, 3 periods, 2 parties per block that equates to 150 chances for 296 parties that applied last year, not bad odds.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #59 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 5:33am
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Kiwis first everyone else second and $10,000 per single tag per person for foreigners.
And if you bag one there's a 2 year stand down before your next entry.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #60 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 6:04am
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pal wrote on Feb 22nd, 2018 at 8:42pm:
Don't knock the Ballot system.
Its not those of us that go in year after year that bomb up on young animals.If you win lotto are you banned from buying a ticket the following week.
For those that continually miss out there is always the 4th period if you are that dedicated to hunting waps come and join me this year 4th period.
Remember there are 25 blocks, 3 periods, 2 parties per block that equates to 150 chances for 296 parties that applied last year, not bad odds.


+1
large parties are severly disadvantaged and most dont realise that. also you cant whinge about not getting a block if you dont put in for all blocks, many that complain only put in for core area.

also make sure you and party members are commited and have finances to go to ANY block as it wastes FWF time and ruins other parties plans if they miss out and then you cancel a few weeks out.


  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #61 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:38am
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ashfishman wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 5:33am:
Kiwis first everyone else second and $10,000 per single tag per person for foreigners.
And if you bag one there's a 2 year stand down before your next entry.



and if you hand a block back or just don't go which also happens ban for 5 years?
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #62 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:52pm
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wazza56 wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:38am:
ashfishman wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 5:33am:
Kiwis first everyone else second and $10,000 per single tag per person for foreigners.
And if you bag one there's a 2 year stand down before your next entry.



and if you hand a block back or just don't go which also happens ban for 5 years?



Hand it back it's 2 years stand down.
Just don't turn up you're off the list for 10.  Who would be such a dick?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #63 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 5:39pm
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ashfishman wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:52pm:
wazza56 wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:38am:
ashfishman wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 5:33am:
Kiwis first everyone else second and $10,000 per single tag per person for foreigners.
And if you bag one there's a 2 year stand down before your next entry.



and if you hand a block back or just don't go which also happens ban for 5 years?



Hand it back it's 2 years stand down.
Just don't turn up you're off the list for 10.  Who would be such a dick?


I understand the ban for not turning up, that’s a bit rude. Not so sure about the stand down for handing it back though? Surely there is just a reserve party to fill the spot? Not everyone can 100% guarantee that life will not get in the way of their planned hunting trip. Some of us have work lives that can be very unpredictable or family circumstances etc can change..
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #64 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 8:04am
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stagstalker wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 5:39pm:
ashfishman wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 3:52pm:
wazza56 wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 11:38am:
ashfishman wrote on Feb 23rd, 2018 at 5:33am:
Kiwis first everyone else second and $10,000 per single tag per person for foreigners.
And if you bag one there's a 2 year stand down before your next entry.



and if you hand a block back or just don't go which also happens ban for 5 years?



Hand it back it's 2 years stand down.
Just don't turn up you're off the list for 10.  Who would be such a dick?


I understand the ban for not turning up, that’s a bit rude. Not so sure about the stand down for handing it back though? Surely there is just a reserve party to fill the spot? Not everyone can 100% guarantee that life will not get in the way of their planned hunting trip. Some of us have work lives that can be very unpredictable or family circumstances etc can change..



Understood but it's highly unlikely that all members of as party would have a catastrophe simultaneously?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #65 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 3:32pm
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they need to close the wap blocks even earlier next year to put an end to this crap.
Theres a bit of talk about the game animal council and charging more for international hunters, in other threads about the gac a heap of us hunters bitch and whinge and get angry if its suggested to pay a licence fee that would go towards managing and developing herds of special interest. so.... why dont we charge the shit out of international hunters to fund the game animal council??
from what ive read about the gac it needs to be self funded to get established , theyre waiting on the government to make a decision on export levys for funding. we should take it further and charge them for the priviledge to hunt here, all us kiwis do in the form of taxes. If they dont like it , dont come here - win win in my books.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #66 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 6:11pm
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We're quite a generous country especially with the hunting!

I have family in Austria and when i go there for hunting its done on the sly or i have to get a license and it costs money.

Hunt any of the other European countries and i need to get a guide... there's no DOC land for me to freely wander and hunt till my hearts content unlike NZ.

Even in the US for the various states they have "local tags", out of state tags which vary in cost but if I want to hunt there... it costs money.

My point is if I want to hunt overseas in any country its going to cost money for licenses, guides etc however those people from those countries can freely come and hunt here in NZ but not vice versa which I think is unfair for us.

If its good enough for those countries to charge us... then its good enough for us to charge them!
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #67 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 6:42pm
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Well put Seven tenths, I'll second that! Smiley
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #68 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 8:34pm
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hunters in those countries also have to buy a license, until that is done in NZ and the status of wild game changes I can't see that happening. Lots of Kiwi's hunt overseas and buy a license in those countries but there is opposition to charging a license fee in NZ, can't have it both ways and not expect a cost somewhere for management of deer herds, which you would have to have to charge a fee. Bit hard to charge a fee to hunt a declared pest?, up until the 30's when they were declared a pest you had to buy a license to hunt deer in NZ
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #69 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 9:10pm
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Deer aren’t declared a pest generally anymore and haven’t been for a while.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #70 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 1:07am
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when did the gov thinking on that change
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #71 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:46am
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Oscar wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 9:10pm:
Deer aren’t declared a pest generally anymore and haven’t been for a while.


nope theyre still a pest, just more people consider them game animals now, the day its officially declared theyre not a pest is the day we all start paying for them

  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #72 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 7:49am
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gonehuntin wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:46am:
Oscar wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 9:10pm:
Deer aren’t declared a pest generally anymore and haven’t been for a while.


nope theyre still a pest, just more people consider them game animals now, the day its officially declared theyre not a pest is the day we all start paying for them



No, the legislations says something very different. Wild Animal Control Act 1977 (so over 40 years ago ....) declares them 'Wild Animals', while the Game Animal Council Act 2013 actually declares them Game Animals.

The pest thing is a persistent myth. They can still be declared pests in specific areas (eg deer free areas I think) but its not a general provision.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #73 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 7:49am
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #74 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 10:32am
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gonehuntin wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:46am:
Oscar wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 9:10pm:
Deer aren’t declared a pest generally anymore and haven’t been for a while.


nope theyre still a pest, just more people consider them game animals now, the day its officially declared theyre not a pest is the day we all start paying for them



Deer, chamoi, ahr have never been officially declared a "pest"
They were Noxious Animals, then in 1977, they were classed (officially) as Wild Animals.
And still are

The GAC act can declare those animals as Game Animals in certain areas (Herd of Special Interest

Deer have/can be "regarded" as pests in certain circumstances, same as a cat , dog, (or human) could be.
But that is not the "official" name.

Unfortunately, there are still beaurocrats that think deer are a pest, everywhere, and also certain members of the public (F&B)
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #75 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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The issue here is the FWF closed the area at the end of January to stop the February hunting by both locals and overseas hunters. The Wapiti area is only worth hunting again because it is a managed area, with controlled aerial culling and herd management. Unlike pretty much the whole rest of the country, the Wapiti area is not getting destroyed by uncontrolled Waro and 1080. What funds this management is the people putting in for the ballot - not those going in early to try and beat the system. It is common sense and only fair that those funding the management get first whack at the hunting each season. As some have said, anyone can go in after the ballot periods finish, and have the run of the whole wapiti area, so you cannot use the excuse of not getting a ballot to try and go in early. Wait until afterward the last period, and then you can go walkabout everywhere. Some of our best trips personally have been after the ballot.
If ballot hunters continually see their blocks getting shot up by non-paying/contributing hunters before they get there, its again going to start a race to the bottom with people going in earlier and earlier trying to beat each other. Also from a herd management perspective, the biggest bulls breed first, and it is hoped some will have already passed on their genetics by the time ballot hunters get a chance at them.
Hence why the FWF closed the area to Feb hunting. So what happened? Unbelievably a bunch of hunters then went in January and shot the place up, before the bull’s antlers were even fully formed let alone stripped in most cases! And don’t just blame the Aussies, who were in most cases guided by Kiwis – and Kiwis guiding other Kiwis. And lots of young bulls have been shot, most notably of those I’ve seen (which is only the tip of the iceberg) a beautiful promising young approx 4 year old 12 pointer by an Aussie couple guided by a Kiwi – the very animal absolutely essential to the future of the trophy Wapiti herd. And then I read here of “Guides” saying its ok because they only shot 1 x 10 pointer. Certainly they would have shot more if they had encountered more bulls that met their criteria – whatever that may have been. Would they have left a magnificent trophy if they had seen one? Yea right…
The point is still the same – they were going against the FWF’s management plans, and worse still if for commercial gain. These people deserve all the criticism they get.
Unfortunately the only way the FWF is going to be able to truly enforce any sort of management system is via the herd of special interest legislation. Otherwise they have to tread softly softly to try and keep DoC (who enforces any rules) on side, who seem more worried about legal challenges to the FWF management etc. Everything has to be done incrementally, trying to take every one along on the way so DoC think there’ll be no major objections and support the FWF's objectives.
Stu, its pretty disappointing to see you say “Sold a pup” over the GAC. That is the whole point, you weren’t sold anything - no hunter has paid a penny towards the GAC and trying to establish an organisation that can actually manage big game animals and hunting. The GAC is a bunch of volunteers who are mostly doing their best to try and get the system up and running, so there actually are paid professionals fighting for properly managed big game herds in NZ, up against those government officials paid by our taxes to try and screw it all for us. They are being stymied/fobbed off by government departments from getting any sort of funding stream organised, so there’s money to pay staff and fight these battles. And I doubt its going to make headway any faster under the current MoC.
The only way we are going to see change is through legislation, and the only legislation that’s ever been passed that makes the management of big game animals possible is the GAC. This is the only way forward in the foreseeable future, and we need to keep the faith and keep supporting the GAC until they can get the funding to get themselves up and in the game. Continually criticising them is not only unfair as they are all volunteers hampered by a truly unhelpful government department, but also makes it harder for them along the way and more likely they will not succeed.
There is an awful lot of growing up to be done by hunters in NZ if we are to have a future…
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #76 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 12:40pm
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The truth of the matter and all other hunting issues in NZ is that NZ hunters generally are selfish, especially the younger generation (myself included). We would rather argue amongst ourselves than have a united voice standing up for us ie Deer Stalkers, GAC  or COLFO. Whereas F&B kick us to touch in terms of public perception and a united outlook on their policies.  Added to that hunters can't seem to agree on any one policy/ code / etc.
Perhaps the easy access  to hunting and the freedoms we have in regard to very few rules is actually counter productive in the long term. Unfortunately most of the people reading this aren't the people who need to, and even if they did would think F#ck you Angry
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #77 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 2:48pm
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Together we stand.... divided we fall

+1 for GAC  Cool
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #78 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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So why haven't the GAC declared the wapiti herd a "Herd of Special Interest"? They've had 3-4 years to do so. Surely it is the most obvious one to do first. If they haven't done it by now, when will they ever do it? What about the Wakatipu whitetail herd? That is another crying out to be declared a herd of special interest.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #79 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 4:12pm
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stug wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
So why haven't the GAC declared the wapiti herd a "Herd of Special Interest"? They've had 3-4 years to do so. Surely it is the most obvious one to do first. If they haven't done it by now, when will they ever do it? What about the Wakatipu whitetail herd? That is another crying out to be declared a herd of special interest.


Stug, as I understand it, the Wapiti HOSI is proceeding as fast as the beaurocracy will allow it to. I'm sure someone here knows more about it

My experience has been, hunters are too ready to complain, but don't front up when support is needed. They should get involved in these issues, if they don't like whats happening
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #80 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 4:15pm
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Yea there latests news briefing mentions theyre trying to get 3 through, wakatipu would have to be one of the others surely
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #81 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 5:17pm
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Can the FWF not close the area in January as well to stop this shit happening?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #82 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 5:33pm
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Stu, its not as simple as that, its not up to the GAC to declare it. There's a huge amount of work and requirements to be met under the new legislation before a case can even be put to the MoC, and she and her department then have to approve it. The first one is going to take a lot of argie-bargie and sorting out. All this is far too much work for the GAC volunteers. That is why they need staff. Until they get funding and staff, progress is going to be incredibly slow. There are cases being prepared for a number of Hosi's, but I guarantee none will get completed and go through until the GAC gets some funding and staff. These are going to be hard fought even then, as the current MoC was totally against the GAC, so it will be interesting to see how she goes in her dealings with them. So far she hasn't even set a date to meet with them despite their requests!
And I'd say after this year's debacle, so long as the FWF can get the support of the DoC Te Anau, January will also be closed. Will some then still try and go in December to shoot a half grown rack of velvet? Shocked
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #83 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 5:53pm
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it's time NZ hunters voted at the ballot box to ensure things in the future will get better, politicians don't usually give a shit until they are looking at becoming part of the unemployed. Or at least join organisations so that they can then canvas gov with a large member base of voters.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #84 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:15pm
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Greg Duley, NZ Hunter wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 5:33pm:
Stu, its not as simple as that, its not up to the GAC to declare it. There's a huge amount of work and requirements to be met under the new legislation before a case can even be put to the MoC, and she and her department then have to approve it. The first one is going to take a lot of argie-bargie and sorting out. All this is far too much work for the GAC volunteers. That is why they need staff. Until they get funding and staff, progress is going to be incredibly slow. There are cases being prepared for a number of Hosi's, but I guarantee none will get completed and go through until the GAC gets some funding and staff. These are going to be hard fought even then, as the current MoC was totally against the GAC, so it will be interesting to see how she goes in her dealings with them. So far she hasn't even set a date to meet with them despite their requests!
And I'd say after this year's debacle, so long as the FWF can get the support of the DoC Te Anau, January will also be closed. Will some then still try and go in December to shoot a half grown rack of velvet? Shocked


Close it just after they cast then?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #85 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:18pm
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Alan on this forum, amongst many others have attempted to get recreational hunter/fisherman support over recent years during upcoming elections. With MMP we have always had two votes as most know. But when it comes to the day - hunters/fishers seem disappear into the void - they vote on something totally opposite to their stated intentions or interest - last couple of election figures appear to show this. Considering the number of members on this forum and other related organisations, go figure.  Smiley
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #86 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 7:23pm
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Greg, I dont think it will matter when its closed it will happen anyway, from ballot right through till the antlers drop will get slammed more then usual. the only thing going for the waps then is the snow and unsettled weather will deter a few but a guide will always find someone to go earn a dollar from.

would be good to see something along the lines of a tag system for the ballot, 1 tag per party I reckon as it would make for accountability to the rest of the party if you came back with a 30inch 10pt and blew everyone elses chance.  dont think theres too many that would just shoot for a glory pic and leave the head ?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #87 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 9:13pm
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Which 'demographic' is likely to be the greatest problem.....guides with paying clients, or members of the public? If its the former I would expect it would be simpler to address the problem thru conditions imposed on their concessions?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #88 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 9:34pm
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gonehuntin wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 7:23pm:
Greg, I dont think it will matter when its closed it will happen anyway, from ballot right through till the antlers drop will get slammed more then usual. the only thing going for the waps then is the snow and unsettled weather will deter a few but a guide will always find someone to go earn a dollar from.

would be good to see something along the lines of a tag system for the ballot, 1 tag per party I reckon as it would make for accountability to the rest of the party if you came back with a 30inch 10pt and blew everyone elses chance.  dont think theres too many that would just shoot for a glory pic and leave the head ?


Yep first step has to be a Tag System !! Antlers have to be tagged with a non-removable tag as soon as soon as possible after the animal is shot !!   Team that up with on the ground enforcement and heavy penalty's and you have the foundations of a great hunting future !!

I get the feeling from some of the post that people want something done but they equally don't want to loose any of there rights to hunt when and how they do now ? Just hitting the overseas hunters with huge trophy fees won't work , everyone has to buy into improving the herd quality and this means restrictions for all regardless of your heritage !  Once you get a better herd you'll then have a product worth marketing to the overseas hunter , who will pay the big dollars to experience !!

Tag systems work well in Canada and my brother is off there for the second time to hunt Stone Sheep ... His mate is a local and has drawn another tag so the bro is going over to help him hunt again ( he can't shoot , but there's far more to hunting than shooting  Wink)
  

alcohol doesn't agree with me , but i sure do enjoy the argument!
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #89 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 8:31am
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I think we need to keep NZ NZ and I dont want my hunting controlled by a group of higher than thous.
I dont agree with the 9 Waps being shot but to me Wapiti are no different to any of our wild game species, I know Ill be shot over this comment but to me they are all important. The last thing I want to see in NZ is a licence/tag system as thats what makes NZ NZ. And my fear is that once a body gets control of a certain species they will seek control of all the others too.
I am a passionate sika hunter and there are people getting on a soap box over this on this thread but Ive turned up to Tussock Hut a few years ago and they themselves had shot 9 Japs and left some of the meat there as they couldn't carry it all as was written in the hut book by them.
Me and my brother were totally disgusted about this and is the same rape and pillage mentality of some people and the Aussies involved with the Waps.
So what is the answer...? I dont know but I think we should handicap the wonderful privilege we as Kiwis have in this country.
I do fully sympathise with the passionate Wap hunters that this effects and Id be totally gutted if this was happening in my hunting grounds, well it probably is as there will always people who will shoot everything but there are also those that dont and I dont think in this case a minority can spoil it for the majority and people shouldn't force their hunting ethics on anyone else.
My experience with hunting groups weather its the nzda or whatever is that they take a whole lot of money and achieve nothing.
I wish there was an easy fix but I dont think there is unless it comes from the government and I would totally hate to see them control our hunting.
I may be a bit naive but maybe we could focus more on education and the majority of hunters getting on board.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #90 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:12am
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Sika 9, yep they're all important but the difference is the FWF has brought the Wapiti back from progressive annihilation by Waro and interbreeding by Red deer. Without them there would be no Wapiti. The FWF is funded by the ballot hunters, and the FWF has surveyed anyone who's ever put in for ballot in recent history as to what they want out of their Fiordland Wapiti herd. The totally over whelming answer was a trophy Wapiti herd. So simply, the Wapiti are not like any other herd in NZ whether you agree or not. They are a user pays/user says managed herd, and the example of what we need in the future for all our endangered trophy herds.
I am also a passionate Sika hunter, and have fought hard for them and have tried to be involved in their management for years (to the minimal extent we actually can have a say). Sika are under no danger from either Waro or interbreeding with Red deer, as they are aggressive feeders that push the Red deer out and eventually Sika take over genetically even if initially there is a some cross breeding - the complete opposite of Wapiti.
I wonder if its me you're referring to about shooting 9 japs and giving away some of the meat?
Some years ago when the Sika population was too high in the Mountain Beech areas and DoC's Search&Destroy was going to be extended north of the Te Puke tops into the Harkness and Tussock valleys in June of that year, the boys and I on our annual trip to Te Puke in February shot as many hinds (left all the stags) as we could before DoC moved in and chopper shot and left them, and we recovered all the meat but then gave some of it away to others on our walk out, as our packs were insanely heavy. These animals were all shot in the high Mountain Beech area of Te Puke, where they were having a serious impact on Mountain Beech regrowth. Is this what you are referring to and if so, what is your issue?

The Wapiti area is not the rest of NZ - the vast majority of the hunters that go there want the FWF to manage it as a trophy herd, and people going in there and shooting bulls both young and old in January totally against the FWF's management is deplorable - and worse if guiding in there for personal monetary gain.
There will always be the majority of NZ that will be open to open slather hunting (the wonderful privilege you mention), and its just "sky fall on your head" stuff to insinuate that the FWF's type of trophy management will be applied to all of NZ - it never could be nor will need to be except for specific endangered trophy herds.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #91 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 7:36pm
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just to set one thing right here.no guide has a concession to hunt in the wapiti area. there are none. if you look at  the guide who is being talked about here he is saying he was in there with some friends and he was not involved when they had a shoot up. it has really up set a lot of people here in te anau. i went for a beer at the pub last weekend and in the end buggered off home, i got sick of guys going on about it and what they were going to do with him next time he turns up down here.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #92 - Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:35pm
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Shooting 9 Wapiti is an absolute disgrace. Ignorant, disrespectful bastards. I fully agree that overseas hunters should pay through the nose for the privilege to hunt in someone else's backyard. Especially the Wapiti herd in Fiordland, which wouldn't be there but for the efforts of the FWF. I don't blame the guide, he didn't pull the trigger. Appalling behaviour by the shooters.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #93 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 6:03am
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Jett wrote on Feb 27th, 2018 at 9:35pm:
Shooting 9 Wapiti is an absolute disgrace. Ignorant, disrespectful bastards. I fully agree that overseas hunters should pay through the nose for the privilege to hunt in someone else's backyard. Especially the Wapiti herd in Fiordland, which wouldn't be there but for the efforts of the FWF. I don't blame the guide, he didn't pull the trigger. Appalling behaviour by the shooters.


Guide is guilty as.   Arsehole.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #94 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 8:56am
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Seems hard to believe the “off duty” guide wasn’t involved in some way with 9 wapiti being shot. I’ve done a bit of guiding over the years and still get surprised at some of the behaviour of so called professional guides. A lot are skid biters and couldn’t hunt themselves out of a wet brown paper bag unless they are in a fenced estate. I’d like to know who this guy involved is if anyone feels like sending me a PM.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #95 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 11:03am
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G'day,

Ben Tumata here, I own and run BGH free range hunting expeditions. Reading through here, there seems to be a lot un-truths floating around and I suspect my name, amongst others is also accompanying those mis-truths. I cannot speak for anyone else that was in there you’ll have to ask them directly but below is the TRUTH about OUR hunt and our hunt only.

So just want to clear a few things up, For starters this is 100% the honest TRUTH and I have nothing to hide, it seems its easier to run with lies and exaggerate stories than pick up the phone and get the facts... You can choose to believe it or not thats up to you but below is the FACTS.

Myself and 3 Kiwis from Auckland, headed into the Glasinock hut in late January. On the first day I had some complications with my hand due to a previous surgery and had to leave to see a doctor in Te Anau. I was then sent to Invercargill for emergency surgery on my hand, long story short I was in hospital for 4 nights and returned to meet the guys on the 5th day after been dis-charged. While I was gone the guys had potted around the hut waiting for my return so we could stick to the plan of heading to the tops once the weather cleared.

Once I returned we headed to the tops for fly camp above Newton Creek for 5 days. During our time we saw approx 80 animals, of those around 30 were a mixture of young bulls and old bulls some had potential and were (LEFT) some imo needed culling namely the reds even the odd wap but again were LEFT.

On the second to last day the hunter in our party shot ONE x ten point bull. This animal imo was never going to become a trophy, It was missing bey tine, and had very average tops if any. It was never going to be a even 12 or anything along those lines even if it lived for 10 years. IMO its the kind of animal that if people are going to take. It should be shot over animals with potential. Anyway the guy shot it, and lugged it out and is currently planning on having it mounted. To him it was a trophy and thats it.

I see Greg suggested we would of shot more if we could. This simply isn't true we did see more, a lot more and we could of shot more but we DID NOT simple as that.

Here are a few more FACTS for those more hell bent on listening to “rumors” and or spreading them.

1. There were 4-6 OTHER parties in there at the time it was a highway (I have know idea exactly how many hunters)
2. Some were Aussies some were Kiwis
3. They shot bulls
4. Our party did NOT shoot 9 wapiti!
5. Were 9 Wapiti shot? I have no idea on numbers but bull were shot by other parties
6. Yes we all had DOC hunting permits
7. I rung DOC and asked them weather guided hunting is permitted or not, they replied via email and I have prove for anyone wanting it see it “ see below.

Hi Ben
The NZPHGA does have the wilderness areas in their concession so yes, you can undertake guided hunting there.
cheers
 
Sinéad Mulhern
Ranger Community - Kaitiaki, Ao Hāpori / Department of Conservation - Te Papa Atawhai 
Fiordland District Office │ Lake Front Drive , Po Box 29 Te Anau 9640 . Ph 0275366750
www.doc.govt.nz

8. There is NO way I would of gone had guided hunting not been permitted.
9. Was there another guides in there? Quite possibly I don't know what the situation was but sounds like there could of been.
10. Did we shoot more than one bull? NO!

If what I have done breaks the law please let me know. Ill stand up and be punished but if this is just a witch hunt to drag my name through the mud for your own gain at least have the facts and state the facts so people can make there own mind up. I went through the right processes got permits, got permission to hunt, Im all for management in this country and a very strong believer in user pays system which of ive mentioned numerous times to protect hunting for EVERYONE in the future.

Im sick of all this bullshit in the NZ hunting community, guys always bitching, making up stories, fighting amongst ourselves over stupid shit and often stuff that is purely a RUMOUR. This is a classic example of why as a whole group we will never gain respect for the likes of DOC and have ONE heard voice. 7 pages of rumours hours and hours of comments spent on “rumours”
We need some perspective on things here.. We have massive issues right now, like 1080 killing 10,000s of deer a year, WARO killing 1000s of potential red stag trophies every year, AATH Heli Hunting accounted for over 400 bull tahr last year from overseas trophy hunters. 100 bulls are shot during the bugle every year (apparently), Non-Resident hunters taking ballot blocks off Kiwis, DOC backing out of WARO deals.. Yet its easier to fight on a forum and believe lies than it is to deal with the FACTS of whats actually going on.

Now im not saying shooting 9 wapiti bulls is right! But come on for starters is this even the truth? Is it a proven FACT? or again is it just a rumour made up to drag some names through the mud for some else's gain? Or is it a witch hunt to make rumours up and spread them to put people off hunting pre roar in the future.. I hate to think thats the case but I suspect there is some truth in there.

First and foremost a rec hunter, and I want nothing but the best for rec hunting in this country. To be honest id much rather hunt for myself than for others and have always put rec hunting above “work hunting” You can make your own mind up now, I cannot speak for the other parties you will need to contact them for answers but at least if you here my name mentioned you know the TRUTH about our hunt and cant say you didn't know the facts.

Have a safe roar

If anyone wants to ask me questions or wants any information feel free to ring me or email
0272325083
Ben
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #96 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 11:08am
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Surely a guides job is to educate as well as put people onto animals ...If he’d done a little more educating and explained the situation clearly as to what the Wapiti foundation is trying to achieve would the incident have happened ?? 

If the hunters were totally ignorant a..holes maybe but conversely maybe they just didn’t understand the situation fully !! ( no excuse though !!) I think the guide HAS to be a little responsible!!
  

alcohol doesn't agree with me , but i sure do enjoy the argument!
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #97 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 11:29am
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We appreciate your reply Ben, and it sounds all perfectly plausable and true.. so thats the positive..

As to some of your other comments..

'''Now im not saying shooting 9 wapiti bulls is right! But come on for starters is this even the truth? Is it a proven FACT? or again is it just a rumour made up to drag some names through the mud for some else's gain? Or is it a witch hunt to make rumours up and spread them to put people off hunting pre roar in the future.. I hate to think thats the case but I suspect there is some truth in there.''

I note that none of us are immune from speculation and fermenting still more unproven rumors.. not even your noble self.

Personally I think the thread has has a lot of good perspectives thrown around, some good suggestions, most of the thread not directed at yourself but rather to avoiding the speculated abuse of the herd in the future.  Smiley

  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #98 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 11:37am
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FWF need to close the area a lot earlier, sounds like a circus in there the last couple of weeks of Jan. Ben Tumata it is obvious from your Facebook page you don’t have a problem shooting trophy stags in soft velvet as you did in Marlborough a couple or 3 years back, was this bull in hard velvet? Sounds like a cull animal anyway, put a photo up to back up your argument. I havn’t read all the pages of this thread but it sounds like some of the others in the area were the problem and you have been tarred with the same brush.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #99 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:01pm
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Puddleduk,

Yes circus is probably a good description, and Yes it was fully hard ready to be stripped and from what i'm aware has been done already. As for a photo ill have to ask the hunter and he's currently on Stewart Island I believe. And the red stag you a referring to that was in velvet was hard, not soft like you mentioned.

For me personally I have no problem with any FOOT hunter shooting a stag in HARD velvet. In Soft velvet I don't personally agree on but its not up to me to judge that person should they do that and I dont think any less of them. At the end of the day who am I to judge why they hunt? who am I to judge what there circumstances might be i.e need the meat for there family? There's FAR more to hunting than just the animal. There's also far bigger things to worry about from a hunting perspective than another a fellow foot hunter taking a soft red stag in velvet. Pure waste of time and energy.

This is the real problem facing us, attacking other hunters while the likes of DOC sit back having a laugh. We need to sort our shit ASAP. While we are here bitching like girls, DOC is allowing overseas hunters to shoot trophy tahr and chamois via AATH, of which id say a few Bulls and Bucks will be shot TODAY, and tomorrow and next day for the next 10 weeks while all the overseas hunters are here. In wilderness areas that foot hunters aren't allowed to hunt outside of ballots

While we are here bitching some WARO operators are very likely fuelling there machines right now ready to do another evening WARO run looking for big fat trophy stags on the tops before they disappear for the rut in Otago, South Westland, Canterbury, Ruahines, St James, Aurthurs Pass list goes on..

While we are here bitching, some public land somewhere will probably be getting 1080 spread across as we speak. If not there will be people in offices right now planning the next drops.

Follow hunters aren't the enemy here, and attacking them for different views it whats killing us and will eventually kill hunting in NZ all together i'm 100% sure.

We as a group. Need to first accept that there is no ONE group everyone wants to belong to. The challenge is to unite a all groups of "hunters" that all see hunting in a different light. Yes we will disagree at times on different things but thats fine as long are we stay together. (big picture)

- Trophy hunters
- Meat hunters
- Anti 1080 hunters
- Bird hunters
- Pig hunters
- Small game hunters
- Alpine hunters
- Bush hunters
- Private land hunters
- Public land hunters

List goes on but across these groups there must be at least 100,000 "hunters" that stand alone but all share the same problem. 1080, WARO, DOC, AATH, BALLOTS, ACCESS

Of all of these groups "hunters" need to accept they hunt for different reasons. And NO one group is more right than the other. We need to work together to unite this group and make it work for all. Going by this forum and the amount of bitching going on everyday how the hell is this EVER going to be achievable.. I have no idea.

Like ive said, Lots of other parties were in the Wapiti area at the time and a number of bulls shot. That number i'm not fully aware of one rumour was 15 including spikers but I don't know the FACTS if this is correct of not. I have said my piece on this nobody has to believe it if you don't want to. But I can promise you its the truth.

As aside not and im not saying it makes it right. This has been happening for years lots of parties have gone in pre ballot in previous years all types of hunters. So why not use this as a good lesson for the future make some changes like close it completely and give the permit issuing responsibility to the FWF then they can control it.Take DOC out of the hunting completely. And some key lessons have been learnt.

Puddleduck as a side note sounds like you know alot about what happened on Molesworth, ask Snow to view the 20 odd different stag photos I took and I sent him of trophy stags that were in there before 1080 drop and will be all dead now.. Thats who we should be fighting, not other hunters.

Anyone feel free to ring me if you want to, Im not into this hiding behind a key board whinging business my number is there pick up the phone and ring simple.

Ben
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #100 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:28pm
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Hey Ben, I have stayed well clear of naming names and personalising this despite the rumours floating around, and no-one else has either that I can see - until you did. What I have been debating here is the principles - either working with the FWF's management and objectives, or deliberately going against them.

Be quite clear on this - going in there hunting for bulls in January when the FWF specifically closed it off in February to stop pre-ballot hunting is against the FWF's management and objectives.

And saying I see Greg suggested we would of shot more if we could. This simply isn't true we did see more, a lot more and we could of shot more but we DID NOT simple as that.

What I said was And then I read here of “Guides” saying its ok because they only shot 1 x 10 pointer. Certainly they would have shot more if they had encountered more bulls that met their criteria – whatever that may have been. Would they have left a magnificent trophy if they had seen one? Yea right…

What I said was in response to what someone else said earlier, but now you have confirmed it. Are you really telling me that you and the people you were guiding/helping or whatever, were only in there to shoot one cull animal? If your party had seen a mature trophy they would not have shot it? Really?

I'm not interested in getting into a slanging match with anyone personally. It achieves nothing. This is about the future of the Wapiti herd, and the actions of a few this January are particularly damaging to that future, and this is worse still if for commercial gain.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #101 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 2:42pm
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Fair enough Ben. On that side note of Molesworth, I’m sure your photos of stags there were taken notice of. Myself and plenty of others are awaiting the results of the survey which must be due out soon enough. Back on topic though let’s hope the circus in the Glasinock there hasn’ t done too much damage, must be hugely frustrating for the FWF.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #102 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 4:01pm
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Greg, just out of curiousity have you ever hunted the wapiti area pre ballot? Or is this just something you have adopted/started advocating in the last few years?

IMO I dont see anything wrong with hunting pre ballot As long as fwf guidelines are follow Eg. mature trophy taken and hard velvet of course as not to waste a trophy.
unfortunatley its the same poor judgement by hunters during ballot that is causing issues pre ballot period except hunter jealousy that someones hunting "Their " block before them seems to add fuel to the fire and gets a more angry response, With all the small immature heads taken during bugle you only ever see happy smiling hunters and not numerous pages on a forum full of anger
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #103 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 5:12pm
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No GH, I have never hunted the Wapiti area pre ballot, only afterwards as I said earlier.

You are quite missing the point. I am supporting FWF management, plain and simple, as it is the only way the Wapiti herd has a future. The FWF closed the area to February hunting this year to stop the pre-rut hunting for all the reasons we've discussed above, as that was when it all has taken place previously - not thinking for moment that some people would then just go in January. I don't think you'll find they'll make the same mistake next year...

Just in case you've missed it, again, here are some of the reasons. The pre-rut hunters don't go to an educational briefing where they get herd management etc and other info handed out, they don't contribute to the management, financially or otherwise, they don't hand in a return of animals sighted/shot etc to the FWF, as a rule they don't hand in their jaws (you can't exclude them from the ballot for not doing so when they went pre-ballot anyway!), any bulls shot then have had no chance to pass on their genes, a lot of them are still far from fully hard and solidified. The ballot holders who are paying for the management have had their blocks shot over before they get there, which just encourages more people to think damn it, I'll go in early and beat the barstards and won't have to pay a cent - encouraging a race to the bottom with decreasing ballot donations and consequently the FWF's funding and what it can achieve. Proportionately there are far more Aussies hunting pre-ballot than during the ballot. The FWF has a hard enough time controlling what goes on during the ballot let alone before hand, when it has no control what so ever over what hunters get up to.   
Surely its a no-brainer isn't it?
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #104 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 6:03pm
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so as suspected a large part is jealousy that the blocks get shot up before ballot holders.

I agree about the part they dont get education at the breifing but to be honest quite alot that go in there pre rut have been during bugle and had the breifing,   the ballot is for the privilidge of hunting while the waps are bugling not just to hunt any old time hence why it costs to apply and hunt those periods mayby fwf shud close in december and introduce 2 or 3 february periods and hunters would get that education and fwf can get data and a bit more $$.



  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #105 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 6:45pm
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My 2 cents....While I agree with the FWF work and dedication to their goals and totally applaud them  they need to realise they dont own the deer. Ben there are a lot of self appointed sheriffs out there weather personally or as a group in our sport/hobby/lifestyle and you owe none of them an explanation.. Ive hunted in the ballot down there, drove down to Te Anau from Matamata in a dirty old ford courier with my brother and we were both totally appalled at the "speech" given by Bruce or whatever his name was. While I spent the whole trip letting animals go if I wanted to shoot one for meat I would have or even a stag that I considered a trophy for me that was not considered a trophy by someone else. A lot of people who are up in arms over this have shit in other peoples nests too.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #106 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 7:07pm
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GH & Sika 9, do you not get it? If it weren’t for the fwf efforts there wouldn’t be the wapiti bulls there now for these pillocks to shoot? And they aren’t contributing to them, what Greg is saying is if you miss out on a ballot, go in after the bugle once they have sown there seeds.
GH you wouldn’t go shooting your rams before they had been put out for tupping?  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #107 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 7:30pm
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I agree mate and like I said totally hats off to them for their efforts. BUT they dont own the deer or have any right to push their agenda on anyone. I agree with what they are doing and sympathise with what has happened but this is hunting in NZ. But in the end of the day if the sika were in the wapiti's shoes Id be just as passionate if my slice of the pie was being smashed. But to be honest if a young fella turns up to camp this roar and shot a spiker and was proud as Id shake his hand and say well done. Id do my best to educate him and leave with the hope they take it on board. Like I said I think education is the key and I don think the minority will spoil it for the majority.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #108 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 9:58pm
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Lead by example.   

Screw the rumours and witch hunt posts.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #109 - Feb 28th, 2018 at 10:06pm
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GH, how you come to that conclusion out of what I said I have no idea! It has nothing to do with jealousy, its simply about keeping the FWF's herd management going, which is the only reason we have a herd worth hunting at all. They have brought it back from certain extinction as a Wapiti hunting experience.
Yes, if pre-rut hunting is to continue, then they must contribute to the management, both financially and with all the other things the ballot hunters have to do, you are correct there. But thankfully the FWF has run the surveys and knows exactly what the vast majority of hunters want, and it ain't pre-rut hunting with all the negatives for the herd it entails, so they don't have to listen to opinions on forums from what may well be the vocal minority for all they know.

Sika 9, you went down in the ballot, presumably paid your money and contributed to the management, and there would have been absolutely nothing wrong if you had shot something for meat. There are plenty of suitable meat animals (any female to start with), and if you had been lucky enough to find and shoot a valued trophy, then good on you. You had contributed to the management by participating in the ballot and had earned the right to be there. The FWF is culling about 1000+ Red deer and Wapiti a year out of there now. There are so many good blooded cows now in some blocks that they are having to cull Wapiti, not just Reds, to keep the numbers down and the vegetation in a good state for both biodiversity and the feed quality and quantity required to have a good trophy Wapiti herd.

The whole title of this thread is wrong, it doesn't matter if someone shot 9 Wapiti cows, its the fact they shot all males, a lot of them way too young and pre-rut in January - if what we are told about what was shot is true - again, totally detrimental to the FWF's herd management.

But Sika 9 you are quite wrong about the FWF and the Wapiti, and once again, they are nothing like Sika. The FWF with the support of DoC does have the say about what goes on in the Wapiti herd, backed up by the vast majority of hunters. They have the right to exclude people from future ballots if they don't play by the rules.
Again, if any of the minority don't like the FWF's management which has the overwhelming support of the hunters, then its simple, don't go there.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #110 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 7:27am
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Greg so if we want good management and shooting pre rut is a big no no then why the f**k do you insist we wait to harass the herd at the most crucial time of breeding season?  hunting during bugle upsets ALL animals so if you and fwf were serious then how about delaying ballots untill after the Bugle?

trophies will still be hard antler, would have successfuly bred without being shot before all cows serviced and ALL bulls young and old would have a better chance of surviving hunters by not alerting the valley of their location. win win for wapiti but hunters are to selfish to face a lose lose situation.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #111 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:06am
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Unless the area was completely closed off duing the roar there will be the same people there shooting the same blocks. Just more of them..

The ballot is a way of controlling the numbers of hunters hunting at that time.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #112 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:07am
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Really GH???? At least if hunted and even with some shot during the bugle the biggest bulls that rut and bred first will have a had a chance to cover some cows. If they're shot in January, well...
And hopefully for the last time I'll need to say this, what has brought the Wapiti herd back from certain extinction is the FWF's management. And that management is funded by the ballot hunters. No ballot hunters, no FWF management, no future for the Wapiti.
And that is the issue with non contributing (both management wise and financially to the management) pre-rut hunters - its puts all of the above in jeopardy.
And unless something new/worth discussing comes up, I think we may as well leave it at that.

  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #113 - Mar 1st, 2018 at 8:10am
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Dude... you need to tone it down... if you want to debate that's fine but you don't need to start swearing!

Part of the experience of hunting Wapiti and the main time people pursue them is during the bugle to get the experience of hearing and watching bugling bulls and hopefully enticing the big boy in.

Hopefully you know what that experience is like when you've hunted deer (red, Sika, Fallow, Rusa, Sambar) during their roar periods.

As mentioned before and as we all know... if it wasn't for the FWF there wouldn't be a herd.... just look at the heads of what was being shot in the 80's and look at what heads are being shot today.

I wish the FWF all the best as i know they put in alot of volunteer hours for what they do so my hat goes off to them.

The Wapiti are in a unique situation as its the only herd in the country which is being managed where there's alot of negativety and opposition against the FWF for what they do amongst hunters so if hunters can't support the FWF in their efforts then what chance do we have of trying to manage other herds.

How would hunter's treat a similar model being put in place for the Wakatipu Whitetail herd which gets thrashed? 

I think the ballot blocks should be closed from the 1st January onwards!
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #114 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 12:38pm
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heard nothing of the sorts over this side, but again these kind of things stay pretty hush and australias quite large so doesn't always come from the major hunting loops.....
sucks to hear though!

its a bit like that waikomorona crew on youtube Rafting down the Snowy River an shooting Stags , all on video.... all highly illegal Tongue Cheesy LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNDZgM1Trvo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpfSvQmJFCE

lol
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #115 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 12:44pm
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gonehuntin wrote on Mar 1st, 2018 at 7:27am:
Greg so if we want good management and shooting pre rut is a big no no then why the f**k do you insist we wait to harass the herd at the most crucial time of breeding season?  hunting during bugle upsets ALL animals so if you and fwf were serious then how about delaying ballots untill after the Bugle?

trophies will still be hard antler, would have successfuly bred without being shot before all cows serviced and ALL bulls young and old would have a better chance of surviving hunters by not alerting the valley of their location. win win for wapiti but hunters are to selfish to face a lose lose situation.


I have to Say that I often Question this too.......
the 'easiest' time to kill a bull an people line up at the door .....

a fellow I knew was or is heading into fiordland before the ballot stuff starts,  I asked weather he could take wapititi an to which he answered, sure!
I thought they could only be shot during the roar/ballot period..

so I was left scratching my head at How this is allowed to happen and what a uproar the ballot roar is  Cheesy

one day I will go to fiord for a troph wap... mark me words
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #116 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:00pm
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Totally agree with above...in reality taking any mature trophy bulls out is counter productive to any efforts...We bang on as hunters about letting them grow...then as soon as they are fully grown smack them out when they should be left to breed up and spread their genes big time!
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #117 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 1:28pm
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Genetics doesn't change with age, if a mature bull with good genetics is shot then it's had many years to pass on those genes but if it was shot young then it wont. Pretty simple really.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #118 - Mar 4th, 2018 at 8:58pm
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Yes but older more mature bull will most likely have better breeding chances with command of cows in his area therefore able to spread his genes further...I am not against this practice but really as hunters we are not helping by knocking over the big boys...it's like fishing...the biggest fish are the best breeders so should be left to do that....I think as hunters justifying taking a rack is tricky thinking really!...only fooling yourself IMO....
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #119 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 1:28pm
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This has been a very interesting thread to follow, every hunter is different and sets their own ethical or moral compass and we as a group have to except that not everyone is the same, some will shoot hinds with fawns at foot, some will shoot Wapiti in Jan, some will blast as many deer as possible and others won’t follow up wounded animals.
This particular story about groups of hunters and maybe guides helping in the shooting of Wapiti in late Jan may affect me more than most as I have drawn the Upper Glaisnock this year, am I jealous as has been suggest in this post “No” as I to could have gone in Jan and shot Waipti as well.
I want a well-managed Wapiti herd in NZ and the FWF is by far the most likely to achieve this, so I am happy to pay my money take my chances in the ballot and go along with the unwritten rules.
Some peoples excuse is “no law was broken” and they are right , but it’s a shame when the one time and the one herd that we as  hunters have a chance to manage comes down to a written law policy being needed. It sounds like the FWF if possible will alter the laws to stop hunting in Jan, something most hunters probably did not really think needed to spelt out in such a way.
I have won a ballot once before and could not believe how good the experience was (this is due 100% to the FWF) we saw good numbers of promising animals , and yes we saw too many animals ( I reckon 50% could have been culled) but from the data collected from our returns I’m sure the FwF is changing or modifying their culling ….and all for the good of the herd.
We are all hunters not photographers, I know many hunters take pictures but we are hunters so killing animals is what we do. Killing old mature Wapiti bulls after they have had 5-6 years of breading (7+ year olds) is what we go for even if for the other 355 days of the year we are weekend warriors or meat hunters…its just plain and simple the Wapiti herd is different.
I’d love to see a herd of Sika treated the same (not the whole Sika habitat but a portion of it) the same with Tahr, Fallow Samba etc.
These herds could be managed by hunters (called whatever you like, FWF is just an example)
I would not class myself as a trophy hunter but when it comes to Wapiti, I think we should all do our best to act like one , even if the only reason is to show the Government, Doc WARO etc that we are serious about managed herds, sure WARO and 1080 may be bigger problems than a few people shooting Wapiti in Jan but it is still a very bad look in the overall scheme of things.
In saying that, for me a Wapiti 40+ and 38+ wide is a trophy (that I may have a go at, can’t say before it happens) for others it may be 50 and yes I would like it to be old as well. The horse has bolted as far as Red blood is concerned but the FWF has made/saved this herd and I have to support them on that.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #120 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 8:36pm
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Whinge whinge..there is a video getting around of a few kiwis with 4-5 sambar heads taken on the one trip in Oz.

They didn't take the meat out either.
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #121 - Mar 5th, 2018 at 9:13pm
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GRYPHON wrote on Mar 5th, 2018 at 8:36pm:
Whinge whinge..there is a video getting around of a few kiwis with 4-5 sambar heads taken on the one trip in Oz.

They didn't take the meat out either.


What's the state of your Sambar herd compared to the state of our Wapiti herd Gryphon
  

fishing sure beats working,, i love animals,they're delicious
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GRYPHON
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #122 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 4:20am
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Isn't it more a question of the state of the hybrid herd?
Are there REALLY 100% full blood Wapiti down there.I do have all of D.B.B`s books as reference and its tough to remember when was  the last time I saw a photo of a bull that looked like any in his books that had been of recent vintage (colour/conformation/shape etc) Has there been a ridgy didge 100 per center bull show up in a photo taken in the last dozen years or are these blokes shooting hybrids?
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #123 - Mar 6th, 2018 at 8:26am
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That"s the point of the FWF control program.
\Too many shite bloodlines so they're controlling through selective culling, especially in the core areas.
Without their contribution and control program, there would be no Wapiti hunting in NZ inside of 20 years.
Without them, nada.  With them, a magnificent herd of as- close-to-wap-as-possible and a hunting opportunity that's unique, challenging and potentially rewarding for the lucky, skilful, diligent and adventurous hunter.
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #124 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 9:34am
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Sounds like we need a few more Kiwis over to Wack them Brown Deer in our National Parks Wink

Our Sambar V Fiord Waps    No real comparison , just yet TBH.


  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #125 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 12:48pm
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ashfishman wrote on Mar 6th, 2018 at 8:26am:
That"s the point of the FWF control program.
\Too many shite bloodlines so they're controlling through selective culling, especially in the core areas.
Without their contribution and control program, there would be no Wapiti hunting in NZ inside of 20 years.
Without them, nada.  With them, a magnificent herd of as- close-to-wap-as-possible and a hunting opportunity that's unique, challenging and potentially rewarding for the lucky, skilful, diligent and adventurous hunter.

Surely every mature trophy Wapiti looking bull is gold then and any shot is a nail in the coffin for the heard!
Me thinks it is time for preserving these animals and only culling allowed of inferior beasts for next five years!
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #126 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 1:56pm
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Me thinks it is time for preserving these animals and only culling allowed of inferior beasts for next five years!


  x2
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #127 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 6:12pm
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have a read of this,it explains why leaving young stags ,and shooting cows and old stags is the way to go.
http://dpipwe.tas.gov.au/Documents/Quality-Deer-Management.pdf
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #128 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:49pm
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GRYPHON wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 1:56pm:
Me thinks it is time for preserving these animals and only culling allowed of inferior beasts for next five years!


  x2


You win a ballot and listen to the Bulls bugling in the Glaisnock and then see if you aren’t tempted to bowl one over???!!!
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #129 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 8:14pm
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What? One with four points?
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #130 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 8:14pm
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I don't put in for the ballot in vulnerable heard areas for that reason...I get sick of seeing people who go in there (TV hunting shows included) go on about people doing there bit when the only way anyone can do there bit is to leave them alone to breed in peace. Shooting big bulls has absolute no benefit to anyone but the hunter!
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #131 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 8:29pm
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GRYPHON wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 8:14pm:
What? One with four points?


Like I said... go in there? Have you?
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #132 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 8:45pm
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Deer Whisperer wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 8:14pm:
I don't put in for the ballot in vulnerable heard areas for that reason...I get sick of seeing people who go in there (TV hunting shows included) go on about people doing there bit when the only way anyone can do there bit is to leave them alone to breed in peace. Shooting big bulls has absolute no benefit to anyone but the hunter!


How many mature aged Bulls do you think are roaming around in there? If everyone didn’t shoot the juveniles it wouldn’t matter if a few old ones were shot surely?
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #133 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 10:00am
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Deer Whisperer wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 8:14pm:
I don't put in for the ballot in vulnerable heard areas for that reason...I get sick of seeing people who go in there (TV hunting shows included) go on about people doing there bit when the only way anyone can do there bit is to leave them alone to breed in peace. Shooting big bulls has absolute no benefit to anyone but the hunter!

Wrong in so many ways, leave them alone and Red blood will totally destroy the Wapiti blood lines, the chance of shooting  big old Bulls is why the ballot is so popular and the reason the FWF has funds to manage the herd at all (so not only the hunter benefits the herd does as well, Heli culling of reds costs money), meaning without the FWF and the chance to shoot big bulls there wouldnt even be a vulnerable herd for you to "not put in for"
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #134 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:39pm
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Lou Nunn wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 10:00am:
Deer Whisperer wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 8:14pm:
I don't put in for the ballot in vulnerable heard areas for that reason...I get sick of seeing people who go in there (TV hunting shows included) go on about people doing there bit when the only way anyone can do there bit is to leave them alone to breed in peace. Shooting big bulls has absolute no benefit to anyone but the hunter!

Wrong in so many ways, leave them alone and Red blood will totally destroy the Wapiti blood lines, the chance of shooting  big old Bulls is why the ballot is so popular and the reason the FWF has funds to manage the herd at all (so not only the hunter benefits the herd does as well, Heli culling of reds costs money), meaning without the FWF and the chance to shoot big bulls there wouldnt even be a vulnerable herd for you to "not put in for"

You miss my point big time...I'm for hunting Red bloodlines and inferior bulls...no amount of $$$ will save the heard if hunters are targeting the bulls needed to save the heard and leaving the ones that you don't want to breed...I don't think hunters are entering the ballot to give back and donate....they are there to shoot a beast in prime time!...justify away all you want but you wont convince me the ballot is a way of saving the heard...if they are so vulnerable stop shooting the buggers....it's pretty simple stuff really....
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #135 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:57pm
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If you shoot a mature Bull he has been passing on his genetics for a few seasons (genetics don’t change with age!!)
So they need culling at or after their peak. You will be doing the herd a favour. Pretty simple really 😉
  

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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #136 - Mar 15th, 2018 at 6:44am
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Skinny 35 wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 9:57pm:
If you shoot a mature Bull he has been passing on his genetics for a few seasons (genetics don’t change with age!!)
So they need culling at or after their peak. You will be doing the herd a favour. Pretty simple really 😉


Yep and that's the difference between keyboard cowboys and the reality of it.
We are so unaccustomed to correct herd management tactics that some of us still spell it "heard" as in, "Have you heard of herd management, or ever been involved in it"
  
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Re: 9 Wapiti
Reply #137 - Mar 15th, 2018 at 9:30am
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Yes Ash

And that is why at least 1 of the 2 gentleman hasn't responded after 7 days (Gryphon hasn't logged on since)
Wink Huh
  

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