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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) Reloading consistency (Read 2095 times)
willyr1
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Reloading consistency
Aug 27th, 2017 at 8:35pm
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I'm loading for the first time in over ten years so have a few questions that have arisen. Loading for my .270 and I'm getting a large difference in velocity 71fps  is the biggest variation with ar2213sc. 48fps is the biggest difference with 2209. Is this normal? To improve my group size I want to get this right down so next time I'll pay a lot more attention with weighing the powder but anything else to watch for?
  

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Micky Duck
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #1 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 9:06pm
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most accurate load........ many a GREAT load has been ruined by a chrony.
  
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willyr1
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #2 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 9:21pm
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Hahaha yea I know. It seams that the 110gn Barnes TSX with 56.5gn 2209 doing 3231fps with no pressure signs were the most accurate. Nothing seams to group as tight as id like. Even an old load that I used ten years ago when I was shooting and reloading a lot was twice the size of what it once was. I can put a lot of thus down to me being rusty and needing more time behind the trigger to hone old skills but the variation in speed makes me think maybe it's not just me?
  

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Walker
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #3 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:57am
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Start with new brass, size, trim and neck turn to get them all as diamensionally similar as possible. Load with powders that fill the case completely then you'll see a better SD. Getting consistantly 20 or less is pretty good for a hunting rifle.
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #4 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:19am
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Micky Duck wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 9:06pm:
most accurate load........ many a GREAT load has been ruined by a chrony.

?
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #5 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:59am
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6.5x55bjai wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:19am:
Micky Duck wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 9:06pm:
most accurate load........ many a GREAT load has been ruined by a chrony.

?


What he is meaning is that a lot of shooters are happy with a group/load, then they run it over a chrony and find the velocity is too low, or the ES is too high. If they hadn't shot it over the chrony they would have been happy with it.
  
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willyr1
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #6 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:14am
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What is the ES stug?
  

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6.5x55bjai
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #7 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 10:09am
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stug wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:59am:
6.5x55bjai wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:19am:
Micky Duck wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 9:06pm:
most accurate load........ many a GREAT load has been ruined by a chrony.

?


What he is meaning is that a lot of shooters are happy with a group/load, then they run it over a chrony and find the velocity is too low, or the ES is too high. If they hadn't shot it over the chrony they would have been happy with it.

Ah, so it's the shooter that ruins the load, by making a   decision based on data from the chrony, instead of being happy with the group size for the purpose required or the velocity and also probably trying to claw those extra few fps that the animal won't notice. TIC  Smiley
None of my loads have ever been ruined by my chronograph. Felt at times like ruining my chronograph though.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #8 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 10:20am
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willyr1 wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:14am:
What is the ES stug?


ES is extreme spread. Highest to lowest velocity for cartridges loaded with same weight powder etc. ideally the ES should be below 20fps.
  
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6.5x55bjai
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #9 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 10:55am
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willyr1 wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 8:35pm:
I'm loading for the first time in over ten years so have a few questions that have arisen. Loading for my .270 and I'm getting a large difference in velocity 71fps  is the biggest variation with ar2213sc. 48fps is the biggest difference with 2209. Is this normal? To improve my group size I want to get this right down so next time I'll pay a lot more attention with weighing the powder but anything else to watch for?

What sort of groups are you getting?

Without knowing your setup, experience, Walker’s advise is pretty valid. How old is your bras? Is it all one brand, and so on. What are your scales like? So many variables. Otherwise it is all about consistancy in every aspect of the process.

Out last week with a mate doing work on a 284 and was getting very high ES @ 76 with 2213sc and 26 using 2209. Work still in progress as velocity is still low but in the 284’s case the 2209 gives more flexibility. None of this helps you though as you have a different rifle and different cartridge.

Shot some factory Winchester 223 ammo recently (first time I have used factory ammo for many many moons) and was astounded at how bad the ES was. Mind you the accuracy was crap as well.
I have seen real good groups shot at 100yds with high ES and likewise piss poor groups with low ES.

  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #10 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 5:40pm
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Theres even another litltle twist, allot of hunting projectiles and some target projectiles have a variation in weight and size per box. If you weigh all of a box of 130grn 270's 30% could be slighly under weight, 30% correct and the other 30% overweight. if you start doing long range target shooting seriously then you weigh and sort into the three groups, then shoot as seperate batches.
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #11 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:11pm
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Thanks for the info. Few good things to think about. The rifle is a Weatherby vanguard. It will be around 1500-2000 rounds old. I got in new 14 years ago and has been relatively unused in the last 10 years. So in the first 4 years i put a lot of work through it and always cleaned it but maybe not as thoroughly as I should have and sometimes not as soon  after it was used as I should have but the bore looks in good Nick despite the abuse and amount of rounds on a hot barrel it's had. The brass is harnady once fired from the same rifle. Full length resize but not batch weighed. The scales I have been using are a bit dicky and I've found sometimes they stick a bit so possible that this could have added to the issue. The best group I got was 30mm  with an old load that used to shoot half that easy off the bench at 100m. The worst group was the factory hornady I've been using hence where the once fired hornady brass is from. I've still got 40 rounds of the shit and it's grouping 3 inch at 100m so I might pull it all and re weigh the powder cause it's shit and I only want the brass to start reloading.
Cheers and I hope this is enough info to say I'm on the right path or something need to change?
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #12 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:27pm
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Try giving the bore a polish with autosol. Nice long strokes up and down the bore and you'll 'feel' any rough spots which you can then concentrate on.
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #13 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:31pm
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You need to give it a good clean and de-copper first. Copper tends to build up in the throat so pay more attention there.
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #14 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:50pm
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Walker wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:27pm:
Try giving the bore a polish with autosol. Nice long strokes up and down the bore and you'll 'feel' any rough spots which you can then concentrate on.


G'Day Fella's,

Please keep the Autosol for your car, and don't put it any where near a good barrel, it will eventually ruin it.

Willyr1, If you want consistent velocities and groups, you need to have everything else consistent.
So start with trimming all your Same Brand and Batch of cases to the same length (case neck turning is not required on a hunting rifle). Then lightly chamfer/debur the inside of the case necks.
If your .270 cases are the same one's you were reloading 10 years ago, you may need to anneal them. Or get some new one's, if you can't remember how many times they have been reloaded.
Re-size these cases using sufficient case lube (Trial and Error but best to start off with to much and work back until they get a bit sticky). You can always wipe off the excess case lube, after sizing, but it's difficult add more lube, if the case is stuck in the die!
Seat your primers to be just below flush the case.
Weigh your powder charges to be within, 0.1 of a grain of each other.
Gently seat your bullets to a predetermined Over All Length (OAL). I usually seat them to be 0.020" to 0.030" off the bore lands, inside the barrel.

After the ammo is loaded, you need to do the following.
Get a target that matches your scopes reticle, as an aiming point.
Get a good and steady front and rear rest/sand bags etc.

I hope that helps

Doh!
Homer
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #15 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:44pm
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Homer wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:50pm:
..
Please keep the Autosol for your car, and don't put it any where near a good barrel, it will eventually ruin it.
..


Have to disagree there Homer.

My (.308) fullbore rifle (which was very accurate) only ever had the following cleaning regimen:

- wrap a rag round a worn .270 bronze brush and slather Autosol all over the rag
- brush the bore full length for about 10 strokes
- repeat above once more, then wipe out and store

This was  a 30" Krieger shooting moly'd Sierra 155s at ~2955fps. After  a -documented- 5000+ rounds, I fired a test group at 100yds which I still have and it was sub 1/3".  If that was "ruined", I can live with it.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #16 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:58pm
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My experience - Autosol is the only stuff that will effectively remove the carbon ring just fwd of the chamber in my 6.5AI
caused by using Win 760 powder.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #17 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 10:30pm
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I normally use sweets solvent. I think there's some sort of JDs honeing paste out at my old man's? Where would I find Autosol? Repco or something?
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #18 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 10:41pm
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Could be the barrel - either the bore or the crown, or both. If there is any damage to the crown have it re-crowned. If not, copper clean thoroughly with a good copper solvent like Eliminator. If that doesn't work (after a few fouling shots), polish the throat and bore with Autosol. I disagree with Homer here - not closing pores in the steel with polishing is far worse for a barrel than not doing so, esp in a heavily used barrel. Concentrate on the throat, and less on the bore, esp the last few inches. Don't do this often, but don't worry about polishing the throat now and then - it's not made of butter. Ultimately, your barrel could be buggered already.

For reloading, my opinion is that the best single thing to aid accuracy and lower ES is to neck turn for consistent neck tension, but you really need a neck bushing die to make the most of it. If you don't want to go down that route, get your powder charges as accurate as you can and your seating depths as consistent as possible. I also always remove the expander button from my neck dies as they can increase runout. Personally I never bother weighing projectiles for hunting.

As ever, ask ten reloaders how to do it and you will get ten different answers.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #19 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 9:44pm
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FIRST OFF  Grin Grin Grin Grin
stop what you are doing and check ALL screws on rifle ....both stock and very importantly scope bases and rings
why?????
cause in last 5 years Ive plurry near gone bald on two occasions when rifle accuracy turned to custard only to descover the plurry bases were loose.
chased my tail with loading and fiddling around with this and that even got rifle re crowned...then found issue and straight away rifle back to hovering around the inch mark
similar age and round count to yours,no issues for close to 25 years then......... Angry Angry Angry
thank goodness its sorted now.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #20 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 8:33am
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After you have done all your obsessive brass prep then weight sort the lot.  Throw away the ones at each end of the bell curve and you have made everything a lot more consistent.
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #21 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:21pm
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Problem with bell curve is where do you draw the line (figuratively). And to do that accurately you need a large statistical number to start basing any degree of accuracy -  I'm thinking greater than 100 units, you also need to know what your spread and significant measures are that would give a decent spread statistically. Is it every 10th of a gram or what ever. Or is near enough good enough. Any less and you're just farting against thunder. Grin
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #22 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 7:09am
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Good advice Homer. I have done a lot of reloading for my 270 over the years. I always individually weighed each charge rather than trying to throw the coarser powders. I did a few tests and found that outside neck turning my cases would close the group size up on average by about 30%. Worth doing for me. There is so much to consistent loads and the powder charge is only one aspect of it. I too loaded 20 thou off the lands and hardly ever played around with different seating depths. It seemed to give the best accuracy while being reliable in a hunting load.

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #23 - Sep 3rd, 2017 at 5:21pm
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Anneal. SSM clean. Primer pocket uniform. Stick with ADI. They make a good powder.The 270 loves 2213sc.My son got 3 on Wednesday night. The stag got up and then got sat down with 1 in the neck. The hind that ran up behind him got 1 in the head.Got another 1 a few hours later running through the shoulders. Fastest is not the best.Prefer accurate repeatable performance. These kills with 65gr Sierra. My mate up the Lake whom I load for loves the 110gr Barnes in his 270. Running 2 grains below maxi.They are all dying with 1 pill.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #24 - Sep 3rd, 2017 at 10:22pm
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I pulled some factory ammo today to check the amount of powder and to basicly see how consistent it is, found some interesting things. I was expecting the powder to be all sorts of different and the pills to be factory 2nds and way off the mark because who would check factory ammo right! The first and second box of ammo I got a while back had the same colour primer and shot ok with a 2 inch group at 100yd (I thort that was shit at the time but after shooting the third box id take 2 inch)! The third box had silver primers instead of brass so I was off it from the start then after shooting them to get a 5inch 5shot group at 100 it's fair to say I was not at all happy and nearly left the boom stick in a ditch! After doing some reloading and deciding I needed 100 pieces of brass and 60 wouldn't cut it I went and got 2 more boxs and figured I could just pull the lot and hand load with another powder and pill combo or just re weigh the powder and reload the my self after all it's already primed brass for $40 a box. I know id get new brass at that or cheaper but im impatient.
I should say at this point the ammo I got is hornady "American whitetail".
So I started pulling the third box i had got and the powder was within .5 of a grain and as it shot all over the place I was impressed with this. The powder looked very course grained and inconsistent in size of the grains. The pills were with in .2 of a grain that was impressive as that's clearly not 2nds. The cases were a little out with 2 clear lots emerging in weight one lot at 185gr and another at 179gr average.
Then I pulled some of the second box I had got to find a completely different powder in it. This powder was a ball type powder and 4 gr lighter in charge than the third box with the silver primers. Still the 2 distinct brass "lots" and very consistent pill weight. To say that the ball powders are difficult to pull is an understatement! That shit ends up everywhere! So this explains why I was getting average groups with one lot and shit groups with another lot of the same make and brand of factory ammo.
The rounds that I pulled I loaded with my hand loads of 56.5gr of 2209 and 110gr Barnes but because they hadnt been resized just pulled the relaoded the pills seated way too easy and will not give the same neck tension as normal reloaded brass and several of you have said that's essential so these might not go so well but we will see.
Anyway I've now pulled all the shit ones and now need to go shoot some goats to empty the remaining 60 or so factory loaded ammo then sort the brass into lots and reload.
I'll be fitting a suppressor and recrown in a few months do you think that will effect the loads I work up now or dose it not change things too much?
Cheers.
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #25 - Sep 3rd, 2017 at 11:12pm
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We use Redding dies but use carbide buttons and with annealing and lubing the inside of the neck you don't get the hard tension and throw off during resizing. We separately decap and this also avoids any additional unwanted pressure during sizing. Our 2C.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #26 - Sep 4th, 2017 at 2:21am
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Willyr1

Apart from the above suggestions , What chronograph are you using?

Are you confident it is accurate and consistent from shot to shot?

Being anal retentive to minimisie "ALL" the variable inputs in your loads, rifle  etc  will gain better consistancy from shot to shot.

This is what makes tuning a load for your particular need so challenging and enjoyable.

Cheers
Pete
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #27 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 7:58pm
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I'm pretty fussy about my loading, and do all of the above, but don't have a Chrony.

All of the brass I reload is de-primed and cleaned with an ultra-sound cleaner, before being polished in a tumbler. Then I start the resizing process.

My test is incrementally working towards 4-5 shots in half an inch at 100 metres, as I prefer to head-shoot my game, when I can.

Cheers
  

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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #28 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 8:10pm
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Ive found the hornady whitetail brass I got given in .270 an absolute arsehole to deprime the first time.....first time in 20+ years of reloading Ive turned a primer into a tent and had to lower sizing ball/depriming pin to make it pop out. they were crimped in place so Im guessing hornady uses same primed brass for both whitetail and superpreformance???? there are different types of hornady brass from batch to batch with slightly different headstamps.
the recrown and suppressor shouldnt make anything worse it should if anything make it better as your shooting could improve with less recoil/noise...POI should drop about 3" at hundred yards.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #29 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 8:12pm
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re primer pockets...just run pointy end of case deburring tool in and give quick whirl...just enough to remove sharp lip and give SMALL countersink...make seating them in piece of cake as they slip in easy to begin/start.
  
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Re: Reloading consistency
Reply #30 - Nov 14th, 2017 at 8:29pm
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Kiwi bloke Steve Blenkarne now living in Roo Land was the guru extolling the virtues of Autosol many moons ago.i.e. early 90's. The other guru is Greg Duley to raise flag for Kroil. Magic stuff on T3 bolt. Now smooth as silk once you strip it clean and use Kroil.Bolt drops like glass even in the freezing cold central NI wind chill on last Saturday.
  
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