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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Molesworth 1080 (Read 12295 times)
Cantyguy
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Molesworth 1080
Aug 10th, 2017 at 8:39pm
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So where are the 2 areas that the Blenhiem branch of NZDA think it should be used. Ospri wouldn't divulge it at the Hanmer meeting nor would they confirm its use in these areas.
  

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Cantyguy
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #1 - Aug 10th, 2017 at 8:58pm
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OOPS MY BAD! Should read what are the 2 areas the NZDA think repellent should be used. Pretty much the whole area is being 1080'd starting in September.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #2 - Aug 10th, 2017 at 9:03pm
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How the hell do I edit this....having a bad night   Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #3 - Aug 10th, 2017 at 10:17pm
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From what I understood some of the area (2017 aerial)will have repellant used but not the whole lot due to budget and OSPRI are working with the Marlborough NZDA to identify which areas or area etc, undecided as of yesterday. Repellant will be used for part of it due to high hunter interest as expressed though submissions. I was told by OSPRI that of around 70 submissions received from the whole country roughly 30 were in regard to Molesworth and they have taken note. Apathy is the NZ hunters worst enemy.
Have a look a look at the tbfree website, submissions can be put in for the 2018 tb plan there, open till late September. As well the 2018 Molesworth aerial is mentioned there and repellant to be used in at least a part of it as well. I doubt repellant would have even been considered if there hadn't been a high percentage of submissions received to do with the area.
Was going to introduce myself to you Cantyguy but was accosted by a friendly OSPRI employee after the meeting.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 3:52pm
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Let's hope for an early spring!
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #5 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 6:34pm
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puddleduk wrote on Aug 10th, 2017 at 10:17pm:
From what I understood some of the area (2017 aerial)will have repellant used but not the whole lot due to budget and OSPRI are working with the Marlborough NZDA to identify which areas or area etc, undecided as of yesterday. Repellant will be used for part of it due to high hunter interest as expressed though submissions. I was told by OSPRI that of around 70 submissions received from the whole country roughly 30 were in regard to Molesworth and they have taken note. Apathy is the NZ hunters worst enemy.
Have a look a look at the tbfree website, submissions can be put in for the 2018 tb plan there, open till late September. As well the 2018 Molesworth aerial is mentioned there and repellant to be used in at least a part of it as well. I doubt repellant would have even been considered if there hadn't been a high percentage of submissions received to do with the area.
Was going to introduce myself to you Cantyguy but was accosted by a friendly OSPRI employee after the meeting.


Well that's a bit of good news. I got the impression they weren't that keen on diverging the areas the NZDA put forward. I did wonder who you were  Wink
  

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Cantyguy
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #6 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 6:36pm
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I know the deer numbers will bounce back but it would be a bloody shame to loose that big mature stags. Hopefully the NZDA have identified the blocks they are coming from.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #7 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 7:35pm
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Don't get too excited yet Cantyguy. I am hoping the amount of repellant used isn't just a token amount. The problem is the extra cost of the repellant. New baits have and are being developed incorporating repellant greatly reducing the cost to little more than the standard present day baits. Paperwork, red tape is holding up the use of them at the moment.
The deer won't have much time to bounce back as the 2017 aerial drop area will be repeated in2-3 years.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #8 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 8:31pm
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puddleduk wrote on Aug 11th, 2017 at 7:35pm:
New baits have and are being developed incorporating repellant greatly reducing the cost to little more than the standard present day baits. Paperwork, red tape is holding up the use of them at the moment.


Are you sure the issue isnt more about testing and proving a new repellent? Sounds like a new one, as EDR was tested incorporated in cereal baits and lost any benefit.

  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #9 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 10:07pm
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Not to sure what exactly the hold up is, most likely what you said, but was told its incorporated into bait at manufacture hence the cheaper cost.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #10 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 9:16am
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re the new repellent

this is info we got regarding the Ruahine drop

Quote:
•      The new additive for baits to repel deer is being developed for OSPRI/TbFree by Orillion (formerly ACP) but is only in the efficacy testing phase. 
•      There will be a small trial associated with OSPRI Kapakapanui operation later this year, Questions being asked are: Does it deter deer & does it have no detrimental impact on possum control?
•      I understand that following proof of efficacy then further work on assurance for safety to environment and non-target species will need to be undertaken before the bait can be registered for use
•      Until the bait is registered for use it cannot legally be used in an operational scenario (it can be used for trial purposes but I believe only on a very limited basis)


  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #11 - Aug 12th, 2017 at 5:52pm
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #12 - Sep 18th, 2017 at 2:28pm
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Submissions close Friday 29 September, the last submissions regarding Molesworth were not completely in vain, with repellant being used in some of this years drop, and hopefully more used in next years drop and those after that.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #13 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 2:39pm
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345 dead deer counted plus a quantity of pigs & goats, thats the news on Molesworth 1080 drop.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #14 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 3:32pm
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Absolutely criminal. Total waste of our prime game animals.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #15 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 5:01pm
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Apparently the dose rate was doubled. I hope this isn't a precursor for the future. ie Targeting the Deer Herds.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #16 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 5:19pm
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hawken 50 wrote on Nov 24th, 2017 at 5:01pm:
Apparently the dose rate was doubled. I hope this isn't a precursor for the future. ie Targeting the Deer Herds.

The normal (and registered) ratefor possums  is .15 percent of 1080 per tonne of bait.
To increase the rate of 1080 toxin, the agency has to get registration first
might pay to check if the actual rate of toxin was actually increased
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #17 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 7:24pm
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2kg/ha of 6gram baits were broadcast. Quite clearly able to kill nearly 100% at that rate.
Mathias, you most likely will find there may be a lot more than that killed. What is worse is the number of live ones in there. The word wipeout comes to mind.
Marlborough Deerstalkers have conducted a post drop survey that will be made public at some stage it's got some info on their Facebook page, worth reading.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #18 - Nov 24th, 2017 at 9:10pm
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A email discussion I had a couple of years ago over a drop in the Whirinaki I was told by Ospri that they have no made date to target deer. I said you should be using repellent and was told its too expensive.  The Sika Foundation have them using repellent all over the Kaimanawa's and Kaweka's so there's no reason for it not to be used everywhere else.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #19 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 8:16pm
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345 ! Makes my eyes water!!
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #20 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 9:08pm
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The whole molesworth got divided up into 3 areas. Nine years of drops, one every year so each area gets 3 drops every 3 years.
The deer and the good stags are going to be hit hard . If that was 345 dead deer was that in just one of the 3 areas then? As each area is getting 3 drops over nine years im sure only one area was being bombed this year and another next etc etc.
Deer and pigs would have been a welcome by kill as big area and many animals in there(were) but it be pretty fu ked now
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #21 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 9:10pm
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One drop every 3 years for 3 drops over 9 years that was....wheres the edit feature gone !!
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #22 - Nov 25th, 2017 at 9:34pm
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On vectors website 61500 ha of the molesworth is being bombed in this opertion. Only states 2000 ha will have deer repellant.   Im sure this will be useful...not Cry
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #23 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 7:09am
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Size of repellant area was disappointing and most likely ineffective. This area has been producing heads approaching 400DS the last few years and what has happened in there is disgusting. DOC employees have seen it along with a few others and the ones responsible for the drop should be made to see it as well, it's a complete horror show in there.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #24 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:01am
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Ospri and DOC are out of control.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #25 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:30am
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100 parties are booked in for the roar in there, they will probably notice the carcasses round, there's plenty to see.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #26 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 10:51am
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Bloody disgusting to think that a prime red deer herd with the trophy potential Ive seen first hand, will be all but wiped-out.
This has been to date an awesome place to take young fella's so that they could see animals as well as have the chance at a genuine trophy, but sadly those days are short numbered. Given DOC's intention for ongoing poisoning, the reality is that the public land hunting opportunities that Molesworth provided  are pretty much buggered.
This could only happen in NZ
Angry Angry
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #27 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 11:02am
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no one but selfish hunters care about deer and pigs... thought you lot wouldve worked that out by now and found something other the 1080 to whinge about, 1080 is here to stay until theres a new alternative thats just as effective mayby concerntrate efforts on that instead of dead deer counts and a few pathetic social media posts.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #28 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 11:21am
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Bos, complain to Ospri/tbfree and DOC. And maybe donate to the Marlborough Deerstalkers post operation survey costs, they have put a lot of time into this, nothing to lose there's even a guided tahr hunt up for grabs if you do.
Also many say only the high sowing rates used in the past kill all the deer, 2kg/ha has killed them all in this case.  From what I have seen I don't think even finding fresh sign may be possible let alone a live one.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #29 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 12:30pm
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Ruger260 wrote on Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:01am:
Ospri and DOC are out of control.


They are well and truly ( in  control ) and have been for a long time,,most hunters /people just don't get it.
The eradication of deer is well underway.
They want them gone full stop.


  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #30 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 12:47pm
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Its time many of those at the top of DOC were moved on there are too many there for their pensions.  Its also time the NZDA stood up to them as well and tell them to leave our game animals alone.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #31 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 3:00pm
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Why is it that these muppets get to do what they want and blatantly ignore what the majority of the molesworth users want. Im sick of doing exactly what they ask of me when i want to go in there for a hunt and then slap you in the face with this after asking for your opinion on a drop. I say to all those guys that spotlight,cut fences for access,motorbike to where they shouldnt  ...get stuck in!! DOC will have to themselves before long.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #32 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:06pm
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What an absolute waste if the numbers mentioned are correct... Hopefully more info comes out about this along with photos. I can imagine its not a pretty site, Its barren country with very little cover and 300+ big bloated red skins would stick out like a sore thumb im sore.

IMO this area had the potential to become something very special, The quality of animals was fantastic multiple 300ds+ coming out every year. And no WARO picking all the stags over summer. If DOC were unhappy with the numbers growing to much why not consult those using the area and ask them to shoot more hinds, or perhaps allow 4x4 access once year in some of the more remote areas to encourage hunters to take more animals out with them. Or even ask hunters to make a donation when applying for permits with all funds going towards repellant.

Again IMO its really time for hunters to put all the bullshit aside meat hunters vs trophy hunters, deer hunters vs pig hunters and unite as one group to fight back. Recreational Hunting needs a body to protect and fight for what have. Someone like the GAC or NZDA should be in a position to pay for deer repellant in areas like this imo. We need to stop expecting organisations or bodies like (DOC/OSPRI) that have no interest in hunting or hunters to stump up funding for OUR benefit.

Yes I know they should be paying for it but the facts are they aren't and they wont be anytime soon. So we winge or as a group we can smarten up and do what we have to, in this case pay for repellant ourselves. What the Marlborough NZDA is doing is great but situations like this shouldn't be left to a regional branch to deal with and find funding to fight it, it should be coming from the top.

Now im not trying to blaming the NZDA or GAC for this, The challenge right now really is how to we as REC hunters build one of these groups into a position where they (NZDA or GAC or even a new group) have substantial funding available and the power to stand up and be heard.
The bodies making these decisions to drop 1080 or allow WARO in areas of high use without consulting the USER is wrong. And the only reason they do it is because they can without any fuss from hunters as a group. Nothing will change until we work as a National representation group rather than individuals.

Everyone hates the idea of having a game animal licence and possibly paying $100 a year. Yet everyone complains when 1080 or WARO smashes an area to shit.. The free ride is over in NZ USER pays, USER says. If buying a licences every year meant DOC would actually have listen to us id buy a licence for the next 20 years up front!

My 2cents rant over   Smiley

  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #33 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:21pm
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Big Game NZ wrote on Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:06pm:
My 2cents rant over   Smiley



I'm on the same page as you, but the post before yours shows the attitudes these sorts of ideas are up against.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #34 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:28pm
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Big Game NZ wrote on Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:06pm:
What an absolute waste if the numbers mentioned are correct... Hopefully more info comes out about this along with photos. I can imagine its not a pretty site, Its barren country with very little cover and 300+ big bloated red skins would stick out like a sore thumb im sore.

IMO this area had the potential to become something very special, The quality of animals was fantastic multiple 300ds+ coming out every year. And no WARO picking all the stags over summer. If DOC were unhappy with the numbers growing to much why not consult those using the area and ask them to shoot more hinds, or perhaps allow 4x4 access once year in some of the more remote areas to encourage hunters to take more animals out with them. Or even ask hunters to make a donation when applying for permits with all funds going towards repellant.

Again IMO its really time for hunters to put all the bullshit aside meat hunters vs trophy hunters, deer hunters vs pig hunters and unite as one group to fight back. Recreational Hunting needs a body to protect and fight for what have. Someone like the GAC or NZDA should be in a position to pay for deer repellant in areas like this imo. We need to stop expecting organisations or bodies like (DOC/OSPRI) that have no interest in hunting or hunters to stump up funding for OUR benefit.

Yes I know they should be paying for it but the facts are they aren't and they wont be anytime soon. So we winge or as a group we can smarten up and do what we have to, in this case pay for repellant ourselves. What the Marlborough NZDA is doing is great but situations like this shouldn't be left to a regional branch to deal with and find funding to fight it, it should be coming from the top.

Now im not trying to blaming the NZDA or GAC for this, The challenge right now really is how to we as REC hunters build one of these groups into a position where they (NZDA or GAC or even a new group) have substantial funding available and the power to stand up and be heard.
The bodies making these decisions to drop 1080 or allow WARO in areas of high use without consulting the USER is wrong. And the only reason they do it is because they can without any fuss from hunters as a group. Nothing will change until we work as a National representation group rather than individuals.

Everyone hates the idea of having a game animal licence and possibly paying $100 a year. Yet everyone complains when 1080 or WARO smashes an area to shit.. The free ride is over in NZ USER pays, USER says. If buying a licences every year meant DOC would actually have listen to us id buy a licence for the next 20 years up front!

My 2cents rant over   Smiley



I would have no problem paying twice that  more if it meant no 1080 drops in places like that and WARO regulation!
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #35 - Nov 26th, 2017 at 9:01pm
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Oscar wrote on Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:21pm:
Big Game NZ wrote on Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:06pm:
My 2cents rant over   Smiley



I'm on the same page as you, but the post before yours shows the attitudes these sorts of ideas are up against.


Yes, like anything its difficult to keep everyone happy. If theres one good thing about 1080 it's a good common ground that every type of pig,tahr,duck,deer,goat hunter hates in some respect. And is the prefect tool to be used to unite the hunting public. It's an educational thing to, No one minds spending $100 filling the ute to drive to a hunting spot or spending $50 on a 24 box. But getting guys to lay some money down to protect what they love so much is near impossible.

I think NZDA and GAC should look to improve there image really look to give hunters a real reason to back them. Educate the non member and future potential members of WHY they need to be a member even give them some examples if there is any of where they have stumped up funding to the likes of deer repellant in 1080 in the past.

IMO like it or not its the NZDA or GAC job to unite ALL of us and become a group everyone wants to be apart of regardless of if a licence system was adopted or not. Why not a voluntary hunting licence issued by one of them that might mean you get some discounts from retailers, or it covers any ballot entries for the year. A large percentage is placed into a trust account that is there for situations like this were DOC or others wont fund deer repellant oran operator want to take 500 deer out of a place like St James.. The group stands up and protects its backers, unfortunatley money talks and without it we don't stand a chance against large govt bodies or similar.

  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #36 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:12am
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Big Game NZ wrote on Nov 26th, 2017 at 8:06pm:
What an absolute waste if the numbers mentioned are correct... Hopefully more info comes out about this along with photos. I can imagine its not a pretty site, Its barren country with very little cover and 300+ big bloated red skins would stick out like a sore thumb im sore.

IMO this area had the potential to become something very special, The quality of animals was fantastic multiple 300ds+ coming out every year. And no WARO picking all the stags over summer. If DOC were unhappy with the numbers growing to much why not consult those using the area and ask them to shoot more hinds, or perhaps allow 4x4 access once year in some of the more remote areas to encourage hunters to take more animals out with them. Or even ask hunters to make a donation when applying for permits with all funds going towards repellant.

Again IMO its really time for hunters to put all the bullshit aside meat hunters vs trophy hunters, deer hunters vs pig hunters and unite as one group to fight back. Recreational Hunting needs a body to protect and fight for what have. Someone like the GAC or NZDA should be in a position to pay for deer repellant in areas like this imo. We need to stop expecting organisations or bodies like (DOC/OSPRI) that have no interest in hunting or hunters to stump up funding for OUR benefit.

Yes I know they should be paying for it but the facts are they aren't and they wont be anytime soon. So we winge or as a group we can smarten up and do what we have to, in this case pay for repellant ourselves. What the Marlborough NZDA is doing is great but situations like this shouldn't be left to a regional branch to deal with and find funding to fight it, it should be coming from the top.

Now im not trying to blaming the NZDA or GAC for this, The challenge right now really is how to we as REC hunters build one of these groups into a position where they (NZDA or GAC or even a new group) have substantial funding available and the power to stand up and be heard.
The bodies making these decisions to drop 1080 or allow WARO in areas of high use without consulting the USER is wrong. And the only reason they do it is because they can without any fuss from hunters as a group. Nothing will change until we work as a National representation group rather than individuals.

Everyone hates the idea of having a game animal licence and possibly paying $100 a year. Yet everyone complains when 1080 or WARO smashes an area to shit.. The free ride is over in NZ USER pays, USER says. If buying a licences every year meant DOC would actually have listen to us id buy a licence for the next 20 years up front!

My 2cents rant over   Smiley



Good post! Positive action - rather than suggesting illegal bullshit and ranting, which just drags us and our sport down.


  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #37 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:55am
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Ok how about starting new thread with poll to see how many of us would be willing to pay for "wild game license"?  Cool

As BigGameNZ pointed out - if you don't pay you cant complain...When I started getting into hunting here in NZ I was in complete shock that there is zero fees and regulations.I was in same shock when I found out that there is groups of hunters with different intersts hating each other!  Shocked In my opinion all of us are living in fairytale,floating in bubble which is soon going to burst!  Huh Yet somehow we expect DOC/government that they are going to look at us as customers and prime users. All we are at this stage is just very cheap pest control demanding attention while not contributing into system...Just face it and lets change it together!Don't get me wrong I pay taxes too and here in NZ I am more than happy to as I can see where they go...But we cant expect DOC to treat us nicely if we just keep shouting that we are taxpayers...
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #38 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 4:14pm
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Yi could invite DOC and Ospri out fi dinner,hold their hand
while patting them on the back,kiss their arses and behave like little children with smiles and giggles and then sit down and be like a real idiot and talk,talk, and talk and talk till yi nuts fall off.They don't like nice well spoken hunters and they don't like naughty hunters in fact they cant be f****d with hunters sticking their heads into their eradication programs...the chap above puts it right ,a huge number of hunters are living in a bubble  Grin when it bursts and they all step outside there will be no furkin things left ti point their guns at,,,then what  Roll Eyes
Be nice to them...be fd.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #39 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 4:40pm
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I have checked through the thread to see why 1080 was braoadcast but i couldnt find why.
Anyone with any facts why it was broadcast ?
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #40 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 5:13pm
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EC wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 4:14pm:
Yi could invite DOC and Ospri out fi dinner,hold their hand
while patting them on the back,kiss their arses and behave like little children with smiles and giggles and then sit down and be like a real idiot and talk,talk, and talk and talk till yi nuts fall off.They don't like nice well spoken hunters and they don't like naughty hunters in fact they cant be f****d with hunters sticking their heads into their eradication programs...the chap above puts it right ,a huge number of hunters are living in a bubble  Grin when it bursts and they all step outside there will be no furkin things left ti point their guns at,,,then what  Roll Eyes
Be nice to them...be fd.


I agree. Doc and their paid muppets dont give a crap about hunters and do what they can to wipe out as many game animals as they can along with the possums and pests with the least fuss possible.
The fact is NZDA are weak. They given up the fight. Instead of rocking the boat and fighting what they think is a losing war they crawled up DOCs arse and tried to win small battles, ie deer repellant in some areas etc.
They fools, deer repellant  hasnt worked that great, and DOC and the like will never listen to them or other hunting groups but do as they wish with hopefully as little fuss as possible because 1080 in the news is bad for business.

They pretend to work with the NZDA, maybe even doing deer repellant in some areas  to make the NZDA feel good and fool the average hunter out there that the postion NZDA has taken has worked.
IT HASNT..... 1080 has for awhile now been used to kill deer and pigs in some areas, its not a by kill, its targeted.

This is the case in the molesworth, i have no doubt and has happened in my area v pigs 3 years ago.
DOC are playing the NZDA and stringing them along, its time they actually rocked the boat, got it out there in the news and watch the Govenment cringe.
I rather go down fighting the so called ""losing war"" than be the play thing for DOC (NZDA) while they cruise to victory wiping out deer and other game animals with the least resistence.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #41 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 7:18pm
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I think you have missed my point BC. Im tired of pandering to doc's every detail, playing by their rules for my sport and recreation, entering submissions filling out permits, check clean dry then,have this crap going on makes my blood boil. If they dont care for our needs i dont care for theirs.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #42 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 7:51pm
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You know its not a DOC drop, right?
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #43 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:00pm
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Big Game NZ, the public were consulted on this drop, submissions were called for by TBfree and as far as I have been told DOC see those submissions as well. I'm pretty sure anyone is allowed to see them.
They were told this would be the most likely outcome.

Salmoner, it was broadcast to target tb infected possums. Is that what you meant or did you mean broadcast rather than in swathes(strips or lines with spacing between)
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #44 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:10pm
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Yeah. I guess ospri asked doc for their opinion on whether the drop should go ahead because its our land that they adiminister and then they in turn asked the public for our opinion which we let them know in no uncertain terms. I suppose doc reported back to ospri drop it! All good our end. No wait a minute increase the kg/ha rate just to make sure we get every last one of everything! As for the NZDA spending $20k on helis and tissue samples.  Good job i guess we will all know for sure that they all died a painful death from 1080 poison.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #45 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:30pm
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No need for poll as I clearly see that most people just can stop whinging, creating conspiracy theories and crying about "our land" being poisoned instead of proactive action. I guess its just easier to cut fences and blaming others eh?

Bit of a bummer really as if we all get together and start paying license fees we can have about $20-60 million "leverage" to get what we want from DOC and government or at least to sit at one table and talk... Lips Sealed But hey thats just an idealist talking...  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #46 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:53pm
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How about inviting/some how funding a media fly over so they can show the results to the public at large. That should stir up a bit of support.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #47 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:08pm
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Agree with Pete82, hunters could make a difference if a common well financed  voice. I cannot believe how an organization such as NZDA who as far as I can see are the only collective  group actively trying to do something constructive here, with their time and money, and opposing the drop from day one are being attacked as either being  complicit or not doing enough. Angry Years of moaning shouting  and writing submissions, letters and news paper articles  has achieved little, so we have to get smarter and gather scientific evidence to fight them on their own terms. I am sure the numbers that will come out of Molesworth will be very difficult to be swept under the table  or disputed by Ospri  and the pro 1080 users.
So do something positive and help the NZDA fund this, as proven animal cruelty is likely to be the  most emotive issue to get the wider population interested enough to pressure politicians.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #48 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:12pm
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puddleduk wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 8:00pm:
Big Game NZ, the public were consulted on this drop, submissions were called for by TBfree and as far as I have been told DOC see those submissions as well. I'm pretty sure anyone is allowed to see them.
They were told this would be the most likely outcome.

Salmoner, it was broadcast to target tb infected possums. Is that what you meant or did you mean broadcast rather than in swathes(strips or lines with spacing between)


Thanks, that is what i was after.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #49 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:30pm
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The problem is there is TB in the cattle herd so that justify's them targeting all possible TB vectors.  I've been a long time supporter and past user of 1080 (rabbit & possums in a past life) and generally support its use for the protection of our bird life but this wholesale slaughter of a valuable recreational and generational resource makes me upset and angry.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #50 - Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:38pm
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Deathwind wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 9:08pm:
Agree with Pete82, hunters could make a difference if a common well financed  voice. I cannot believe how an organization such as NZDA who as far as I can see are the only collective  group actively trying to do something constructive here, with their time and money, and opposing the drop from day one are being attacked as either being  complicit or not doing enough. Angry Years of moaning shouting  and writing submissions, letters and news paper articles  has achieved little, so we have to get smarter and gather scientific evidence to fight them on their own terms. I am sure the numbers that will come out of Molesworth will be very difficult to be swept under the table  or disputed by Ospri  and the pro 1080 users.
So do something positive and help the NZDA fund this, as proven animal cruelty is likely to be the  most emotive issue to get the wider population interested enough to pressure politicians.


I know what you trying yo say, but a couple of  points i cant get past.
1 NZDA did achieved little with the letters, moaning and voicing their concerns  for a long time, but so did everyone else that complained. The powers that be dont want to listen, they do as they wish and are doing so. The NZDA have surrendered, they not doing it smarter trying to win small battles crawling up DOCs arse.   DOC are in control, and choose which little battles they let them win to  keep the 1080 program ticking along at a greater rate with the least resistence.
Maybe it seemed they achieved nothing, but DOC hate anything negative about 1080 in the news with a passion, more so even now and NZDA position suits DOC to a tee, least noise the better.
2 Why arent NZDA head office doing the research instead of a local branch and in the end whats it going to prove or acheive??
Who cares if 90 pcent of the deer are killed by 1080, that is what DOc wants, its a "by kill "to be proud of for them.
Pro 1080 people  many want the game animals dead, they eat their plants and damage the nz bush. Do DOC really care what NZ Hunters think or what the NZDA want....NO.
They flogged them off for years, using the weak postion of the NZDA now to their advantage .  1080 wont stop or slow down with anything from this survey .
Why will it make a difference on the results? Its more than likely deer and pigs were on the target list for this nine year operation, and the more it kills the better.

DOC know this area is a important hunting area and his trophy stags.
Im sure the NZDA has told them this and tried crawling up there arses to get deer repellant in and control the damage.
Sure goes DOC, heres your little battle win, we do 2000ha of deer repellant in a 61500ha area.
Its a joke, the deer have been targeted, they going to kill lots of them and they have basicly thumbed their nose at the NZDA because they weak and have no say.

This survey paid by hunters will not change anything but make grown men cry over the death of the molesworth deer herds
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #51 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 5:56am
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madfish71 wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:38pm:
DOC know this area is a important hunting area and his trophy stags.
Im sure the NZDA has told them this and tried crawling up there arses to get deer repellant in and control the damage.
Sure goes DOC, heres your little battle win, we do 2000ha of deer repellant in a 61500ha area.


It was a TBFree drop, not DoC. Important to get the basic facts right: https://www.tbfree.org.nz/molesworth-station.aspx
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #52 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 6:58am
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Oscar wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 5:56am:
madfish71 wrote on Nov 27th, 2017 at 10:38pm:
DOC know this area is a important hunting area and his trophy stags.
Im sure the NZDA has told them this and tried crawling up there arses to get deer repellant in and control the damage.
Sure goes DOC, heres your little battle win, we do 2000ha of deer repellant in a 61500ha area.


It was a TBFree drop, not DoC. Important to get the basic facts right: https://www.tbfree.org.nz/molesworth-station.aspx


What Oscar said...






  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #53 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:17am
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Haha get real people, TB Free and  DOC work together. TBFREE and Ospri are sub contractors for the Government.
If you think DOC dont have any control or blame in what ever TBFree do you in dreamland
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #54 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:43am
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OSPRI
""OSPRI’s mission is to protect and enhance the reputation of New Zealand's primary industries.
OSPRI's TBfree programme is funded through a government-industry partnership. The government has committed $100 million for 2016 to 2020. OSPRI's TBfree programme manages the implementation of the National Pest Management Plan for Bovine TB""

All TBFREE are is another sub group of DOCs 1080 poision operation. They operate under getting rid of TB while DOC operate getting rid of pests to save the birds etc and control wild animals.   
Whose actually running it all...the Government has the say and it doesnt matter if its under DOC or TBFREE, they all stained with the same brush so dont make me laugh when people say its not a DOC operation, dont blame them Grin Grin.
DOC control  it all(Government)), and most is their land  so they have the say
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #55 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:44am
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There are none so blind, as those that cannot see.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #56 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:50am
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A few years ago TB free was told not to use deer as TB vector control as they are poor carriers of TB but that seems to have fall on deaf ears again.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #57 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 8:17am
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I think some are forgetting who controls activities on Molesworth. To assume DoC does not have a major say in all of this is pretty naive. Either way, if reports are to be believed, it's a crying shame.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #58 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 8:50am
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Oscar wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:44am:
There are none so blind, as those that cannot see.


Grin Grin Mate there's a swag of dudes on here that only have one eye open..
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #59 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 8:54am
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EC wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 8:50am:
Oscar wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:44am:
There are none so blind, as those that cannot see.


Grin Grin Mate there's a swag of dudes on here that only have one eye open..


And judging by some of the posts, its not one in their head  Wink Grin
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #60 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 9:00am
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Oscar wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 8:54am:
EC wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 8:50am:
Oscar wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:44am:
There are none so blind, as those that cannot see.


Grin Grin Mate there's a swag of dudes on here that only have one eye open..


And judging by some of the posts, its not one in their head  Wink Grin

Now that's low  Grin Grin you are referring to the pro poison group right  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #61 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 9:46am
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[quote author=202B3925241528252B4A0 link=1502397543/54#=1511854995]OSPRI
""OSPRI’s mission is to protect and enhance the reputation of New Zealand's primary industries.
OSPRI's TBfree programme is funded through a government-industry partnership. The government has committed $100 million for 2016 to 2020. OSPRI's TBfree programme manages the implementation of the National Pest Management Plan for Bovine TB""

All TBFREE are is another sub group of DOCs 1080 poision operation. They operate under getting rid of TB while DOC operate getting rid of pests to save the birds etc and control wild animals.   
Whose actually running it all...the Government has the say and it doesnt matter if its under DOC or TBFREE, they all stained with the same brush so dont make me laugh when people say its not a DOC operation, dont blame them Grin Grin.
DOC control  it all(Government)), and most is their land  so they have the say [/quote]

Yes thats right.Who doesnt see that really is blind...Add big US corporations selling compounds for 1080 to NZ and you have what we are looking at right now... Sad Money talks folks,its always been the same...
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #62 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 10:21am
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Oscar wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:44am:
There are none so blind, as those that cannot see.


There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Fixed it for you. Wink  Grin
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #63 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 10:23am
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Oops  Grin
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #64 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 12:27pm
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[/quote].........DOC control  it all(Government)), and most is their land  so they have the say [/quote]

Woah!!! Back the truck up!. None of its 'their' land. Its all OUR land. The NZ Public's. They are just the ones who are meant to 'manage' it. And from the get go they have wanted to do it their way. From way back in 1987 when they successfully had the name changed from 'The Department of Conservation and Recreation' to plain 'ol DoC. Note the bit the greenie agenda bureaucrats managed to get left out.  So they are playing the long game, foisting off genuine calls for public accountability for public monies and the protection rackets run to increase the size of their 'empire' by having us run round and round in circles chasing answers. Even persistent bastards like Marty et al get fobbed off.  Its enough to make you vote for NZF Grin Grin Grin
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #65 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 3:52pm
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Is there any information on how many deer have survived?
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #66 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 4:51pm
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Put it this way. I have a ballot block in there for this roar and I'm doing my research on my plan B.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #67 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 4:54pm
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What's the GAC doing about this catastrophe?
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #68 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:46pm
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Backcountry Bob, ask Marlborough DOC(Renwick) they have spent plenty of hours in there after the drop in a 500 on wilding pines. Can't see a reason why they couldn't tell you.
In my opinion next to none have survived, the baits sat round in almost perfect deadly condition for almost a month.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #69 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 8:45pm
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Ok I've read the emotional responses above but what is different about this to any other 1080 operation? Deer die during 1080 operations; we know that.
During the Battle for our Birds operations DOC paid for deer repellent to be used in places where there were 'herds of national importance'
Does the Molesworth herd have any such recognition or designation?
And if not, who should pay for deer repellent to be used and why?
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #70 - Nov 28th, 2017 at 9:36pm
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Recognition or designation?, no not yet but it should have long before now.Pretty sure its classified as a Recreational Reserve at the moment. Vast open country, no waro, world class wild free range red deer trophies, restricted block system and proberly a few others reasons it should be a HOSI as well.
And also the ones that want to poison the possums should pay for the repellant for the above reasons at the very least.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #71 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 6:53am
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puddleduk wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:46pm:
Backcountry Bob, ask Marlborough DOC(Renwick) they have spent plenty of hours in there after the drop in a 500 on wilding pines. Can't see a reason why they couldn't tell you.
In my opinion next to none have survived, the baits sat round in almost perfect deadly condition for almost a month.


While you are talking to DoC in Renwick, ask them who they granted the WARO licence to for the vension recovery operation before the poison went down? Yes by all accounts this did happen.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #72 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 7:02am
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Mathias wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 6:53am:
puddleduk wrote on Nov 28th, 2017 at 7:46pm:
Backcountry Bob, ask Marlborough DOC(Renwick) they have spent plenty of hours in there after the drop in a 500 on wilding pines. Can't see a reason why they couldn't tell you.
In my opinion next to none have survived, the baits sat round in almost perfect deadly condition for almost a month.


While you are talking to DoC in Renwick, ask them who they granted the WARO licence to for the vension recovery operation before the poison went down? Yes by all accounts this did happen.


Yes I'm aware of this as well, not strictly speaking a Waro operation though, a nearby landowner known to the manager who owns a R22.  This was alluded to by Jim Ward at the Hanmer Ospri meeting, no mention of the heli though.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #73 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 7:10am
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At the end of the day we as hunters are a minority, insignificant group when it comes to the importance of TB control. I'm not sure how we can address this but given the unique experience that was (is) available on Molesworth I believe we need to dig into our pockets and contribute towards repellent. Not to say they would use it of course if they are intentionally targeting deer. What about the Chamois out there? Are they likely to be effected?
The media really needs to be made aware of this to at least put pressure on to use repellent for the rest of the operation.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #74 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 7:32am
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Hunters need to be more active in forwarding submissions regarding these operations, and demanding that Ospri use repellent.  As I said earlier the Sika Foundation demands it in the Kaimanawa's and Kawekas and there was a big part of the Whirinaki FP operationsas well. Ospri have NO mandate to target deer on these operations. I was told that a couple years ago by Ospri over a Whirinaki drop.  They need to recognize that deer etc are game animals.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #75 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 7:37am
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Ruger260 wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 7:32am:
Hunters need to be more active in forwarding submissions regarding these operations, and demanding that Ospri use repellent.  As I said earlier the Sika Foundation demands it in the Kaimanawa's and Kawekas and there was a big part of the Whirinaki FP operationsas well. Ospri have NO mandate to target deer on these operations. I was told that a couple years ago by Ospri over a Whirinaki drop.  They need to recognize that deer etc are game animals. 


I believe that many submissions were made?

  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #76 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 8:15am
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At the risk of being shouted at...

I have no doubt that the deer kill is significant. The anecdotal information seems to support this.

What I would like to know though is whether deer were actually targeted by Ospri or are they a by-kill (albeit that they might not be too concerned about it).

Its being implied that the toxin rate was increased to kill deer. Is this simply conjecture or is it fact?

My understanding is that deer are an end host for TB but that they are not a vector. Are they truly being targeted or is the deer kill an unfortunate consequence of a pest/vector operation?


  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #77 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 8:46am
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BC wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 8:15am:
At the risk of being shouted at...

I have no doubt that the deer kill is significant. The anecdotal information seems to support this.

What I would like to know though is whether deer were actually targeted by Ospri or are they a by-kill (albeit that they might not be too concerned about it).

Its being implied that the toxin rate was increased to kill deer. Is this simply conjecture or is it fact?

My understanding is that deer are an end host for TB but that they are not a vector. Are they truly being targeted or is the deer kill an unfortunate consequence of a pest/vector operation?



Good questions
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #78 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 9:05am
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Mathias-it was a tb survey, pretty standard(as in the Kaimanawas,Kawekas etc) I assume DOC knew about it.
Cantyguy is correct this was mentioned at the meeting in Hanmer Springs back in August.

BC- toxin rate was standard, 6gram baits sown at 2kg/ha. Deer were not targeted but if they had been it would have been a success!
The tbfree national plan stated low sow aerial was to be used in Molesworth but the maximum was used. A Landcare Research trial was done on neighbouring land 3 or 4 years back using .333kg/ha and .5kg/ha and by memory resulting in a 99% kill of possums. This was argued with OSPRI but they were stubborn about it and a huge by kill of deer has been the result as they were told would happen. The low sow research trial using fixed wing( half the flying cost) also resulted in a massive deer kill so repellant seems to be the only chance to minimise this. Its dry arid country, not damp podocarp forest which seems to soak up a lot of baits.
Cantyguy- OSPRI has stated that anybody is welcome to pay for the repellant cost if the want to, off the top of my head probably about a million dollars.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #79 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 9:25am
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Here are some facts:

Contract trappers were sitting at the negotiating table with DOC, up until August 2017.

DOC admitted that the only thing stopping the exposure of aerial 1080 application contractors to open, fair and transparently tendered competition, with other methods of wild animal control, was the writing of a new rat monitoring protocol. The current rat monitoring guidelines are so loosely written that predetermined high or low rat population data is able to be collected. DOC refused to consider writing the new rat protocol and DOC left the negotiating table.

OIA request information, received from DOC and OSPRI, shows that 1080 is not killing the numbers of possums claimed.

DOC and OSPRI are successfully employing contract trappers in areas, not earmarked for aerial 1080, that are similar to some of the areas that aerial 1080 is being used.

Deer repellent, to date, has not been effective. The trialing of new deer repellent is the same as the trialing of Kea repellent that didn't work and ended up killing even more Kea. Unlike Kea, there are heaps of farmed deer that the repellent could be trialed on. It would be a lot cheaper to kill a few farm deer, until they get the deer repellent formula right, than to keep spending money incorporating the repellent into aerial 1080 operations that are still killing deer and, at the same time, giving deer hunters the false impression that the wild deer herds are being protected. By trialing the repellent on farmed deer the development process would happen a lot faster as the trials would not have to wait until an aerial 1080 operation takes place and new formulas could be immediately put to test with the result being an absolute knowledge of how many deer have actually died simply by counting them, without the need to hire helicopters.

The solution is to back the contract trappers push to allow contract trappers to be allowed to compete with aerial 1080 application contractors. This would have the effect of contract trappers replacing aerial 1080 as all the data is showing that contract trappers are effective at lowering possum population densities to below 2% RTC (the OSPRI target that is only being achieved, by aerial 1080, through the manipulation of both the collection of possum monitoring data and the reporting of the monitoring data).

NZDA know who I am as I have supplied NZDA with information. NZDA members need to put pressure on their leadership to become more proactive in the aerial 1080 issues and not simply rely on the addition of deer repellent, that hasn't worked effectively to date, and the possibility that a new, effective deer repellent may be formulated "sometime in the future".

The "sometime in the future" line is part of the mantra that the pro-1080 people are using to describe new techniques that may, or may not, be developed in the near future. The "right now" solution is to use contract trappers that have already proved they are more effective, than aerial 1080, and they do not kill deer as a by-kill.

On Molesworth, OSPRI is targeting TB possums. Contract trappers are able to autopsy all possums caught in order to find and eradicate the TB possum hot-spots which is something that aerial 1080 is unable to do. Contract trappers will virtually eliminate possum TB the first time through with the followup trapping work ensuring that the possum TB hot-spots, found during the initial work, remain free of TB. In other words, the follow up trapping work is simply to ensure that TB has been eradicated and to clean up any TB possums left behind.

I am not going to enter into ongoing debate on this forum. If you want contract trappers to be included as one of the options considered, please let your NZDA leadership know and they can contact me. We can then work out how to use our combined resources to promote contract trappers, as an alternative to aerial 1080, within the dialogue that contract trappers are currently having with the controlling entities of the wild animal control industry.

Cheers....Marty

  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #80 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 9:43am
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Thanks Marty
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #81 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 10:24am
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Cheers Marty, finally some valuable insight into whole thing showing also how it could be fixed in future...  Wink
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #82 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 10:37am
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If the situation on Molesworth is as described here then its most unfortunate.

I was under the impression that OSPRI had pretty much conceded 'deer repellent by default' for all of their jobs, but it seems not? Maybe a question directly to them to clarify their position would be a useful place to start?

On the other hand, it does seem different for DoC jobs.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #83 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 1:52pm
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How have the kea fared following this drop?

It is my belief that the only reason that kea are now endangered is due to 1080. If you look at the kea population prior to the wholesale use of 1080 you would find that they were almost in plague proportions. Now kea are endangered and predators are theoretically to blame. If you extrapolate that argument then you would have to say that 1080 has been ineffective in controlling predators, as I doubt that there were fewer predators prior to 1080 - it has undoubtedly been effective in reducing our bird populations. 

Maybe this could be used as a convincing argument against the use of 1080 in general.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #84 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 2:52pm
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Valid points there Marty, except I think the size of the area would be preclude contract possumers doing it by hand in terms of time taken and stock management.

Also not sure how many people would push into head high briar in some of those gully's.

Aerial 1080 undoubtedly has it's place but in my opinion is used far too liberally in place of hand poisoning. 

It would be interesting to find out how many, if any, live animals were seen. It would be nice to think that some of those big stags received a sub lethal dose purely due to their size.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #85 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 3:14pm
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Max wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 10:37am:
If the situation on Molesworth is as described here then its most unfortunate.



Unfortunate ...you could have used a more suited  word there Max  Smiley
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #86 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 4:50pm
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Puddleduk....its all very well saying deer werent targeted , just a by kill but we all know thats B/S.
There was no need to use the Max dose with the 1080 if it was purely to kill possums.
TBFree are a sub group of DOC, DOC would have no doubt welcomed as many deer deaths as possible and OSPRI have obeyed.  Its a big area, lots (were)of numbers of deer, DOC want them gone and the numbers are going to be hit very hard.
It be the end of pigs in the molesworth as well, esp hunting them.  So many dead deer, possums, goats etc and the pigs that have survived are going to have a field day eating the dead.
Unforturely they poisoned by 1080 so will the pigs and i wouldnt want to eat one from that area again thats for sure.  OSPRI will welcome that as they believe pigs have TB so more gone the better.

AS for your comments MARTY, some good points but i think you missed the boat.  1080 is a industry, the Government wants it to roll on.    SO called ""bykill"" of deer and pigs are welcomed also to the point i have no doubt they target them as well as the possum with 1080.

Theres no way they going to replace 1080 with trappers, you in dreamland if you think thats going to happen anytime soon.
The Green Radical in charge of DOC now is worst than that thick Maggie Barry who was only a muppet for DOC and said and did as she was told.
Now whose in charge wants the wild animals dead, 1080 used more...its a joke
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #87 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 4:55pm
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And dont forget we have WINSTON to thank for getting the greens and a radical poisoner  in charge of DOC, its quite irony isnt it  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #88 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 6:09pm
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I emailed ospri and have a phone number in greymouth to ring to talk to someone about this. Also on their website it has a map of area poisoned and the token area repellant was used. Also the next 2years worth of drops map. Maybe we could beg for more repellant to be used on the next yrs worth of poison. Possums eat just about anything why do we need to drop baits the deer are attracted to??
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #89 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 6:38pm
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m robbo wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 6:09pm:
I emailed ospri and have a phone number in greymouth to ring to talk to someone about this. Also on their website it has a map of area poisoned and the token area repellant was used. Also the next 2years worth of drops map. Maybe we could beg for more repellant to be used on the next yrs worth of poison. Possums eat just about anything why do we need to drop baits the deer are attracted to??


Havnt you read the posts above?? 1080 isnt dropped just for possums. DOC and Opsri will never confirm it but 1080 is doing two jobs for them. Killing possums and deer and pigs and the more the better so of cause they not going to drop baits that deer wont eat, that be silly Cheesy Cheesy.

And its not proven that repellant even works, and i doubt it works very good if it did so less 1080 is way better than repellant.
The marlbough NZDA in there survey appears to be doing 10 percent of the area and are not including the area thats been used with deer repellant(as per their facebook page).
The reason why is the area is too small, deer can move thru it too easy etc and wont give true results compared to non repellant areas.
Maybe thats why OPRIS did such a small area with repellant, it doesnt work, waste of money but to make the NZDA happy ( Grin Grinexcuse me Grin) they used it in such a small area you not going to prove that the repellant is a waste of time and money
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #90 - Nov 29th, 2017 at 7:26pm
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madfish71 wrote on Nov 29th, 2017 at 6:38pm:
The reason why is the area is too small, deer can move thru it too easy etc and wont give true results compared to non repellant areas.
Maybe thats why OPRIS did such a small area with repellant, it doesnt work, waste of money but to make the NZDA happy ( Grin Grinexcuse me Grin) they used it in such a small area you not going to prove that the repellant is a waste of time and money



!st rule of Governing is only conduct a poll or inquiry if you already know the result ,,,, So setting up a test destined to fail fits the above methodology perfectly !!!
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #91 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 7:58am
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Agree I-E the area used with repellent was ridiculously too small, as red deer range large areas. Repellent used in the Kaimanawa's/Kaweka's has been very good with only small numbers of deer killed. Most of these deer were under a year old. The southern Kipo area where grid searches only found 11 deer.  A camera survey showed lots of deer movement after the drop.
This susrvey was carried out by Graeme Nugent Landcare Research.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #92 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 9:11am
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Ruger260 wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 7:58am:
Repellent used in the Kaimanawa's/Kaweka's has been very good with only small numbers of deer killed. Most of these deer were under a year old.


Good to hear, I'm not sure why some keep saying repellent doesn't work. In the Wakatipu Whitetail area, 10 collared deer before the drop, 9 survived, one killed by 1080, when repellent was used. Anecdotally the death rate was far higher during the drop before that with no repellent. Will be interesting to read what Marlborough NZDA see.

Repellent is not perfect, doesn't stop all deer deaths, but it is usually effective when actually measured.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #93 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 9:53am
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Oscar wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 9:11am:
Ruger260 wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 7:58am:
Repellent used in the Kaimanawa's/Kaweka's has been very good with only small numbers of deer killed. Most of these deer were under a year old.


Good to hear, I'm not sure why some keep saying repellent doesn't work. In the Wakatipu Whitetail area, 10 collared deer before the drop, 9 survived, one killed by 1080, when repellent was used. Anecdotally the death rate was far higher during the drop before that with no repellent. Will be interesting to read what Marlborough NZDA see.

Repellent is not perfect, doesn't stop all deer deaths, but it is usually effective when actually measured.


The reported deer kills are very variable. It is accepted that deer repellent is "not perfect". The thing is the amount of moisture, at a given time, is a reason for deer repellent not working. i.e. enough moisture to wash off the repellent followed by no rain and 1080 kills deer, or enough rain to destroy the baits quickly and deer are not killed. Simply reporting good and/or debatable results is not good enough.

They won't answer the question of why they won't trial the repellent on farm deer? So that they can absolutely measure deer kills over different conditions and more quickly develop a formula that will overcome the problems deer repellent has that makes it "not perfect".

If the owners of the deer repellent won't step up to the mark and do the normal R&D, you would expect of a product like this, then the NZ Government should take over the R&D side, of improving deer repellent, and then the formula would be owned by all NZer's. This would mean there would be no good reason to keep the formula a secret anymore, which would be a good thing as everybody would then be able to see what is going on and knowledgeable people would be able to offer solutions to any ongoing problems deer repellent has.

It seems to me, that the NZ wild deer herds are being held to ransom by the profit driven motives of the owners of the deer repellent formula.

  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #94 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:36am
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It was trialled on farm deer.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #95 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:53am
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Oscar wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:36am:
It was trialled on farm deer.


What were the weather conditions?

How much moisture exposure did the baits have and over what period of time?

Were the deer left in contact with the bait until the bait was non-toxic?

How long did it take for the bait to become non-toxic?

Was there a period of time between the deer repellent not working and the bait becoming non-toxic?
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #96 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:59am
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Beats me  Smiley You're a hard case Marty, surprised you hadn't read the reports yourself  Smiley

Its the outcomes that matter. Usually, significant reductions in deer kill when used.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #97 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 11:02am
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Marty Foote wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:53am:
Oscar wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:36am:
It was trialled on farm deer.


What were the weather conditions?

How much moisture exposure did the baits have and over what period of time?

Were the deer left in contact with the bait until the bait was non-toxic?

How long did it take for the bait to become non-toxic?

Was there a period of time between the deer repellent not working and the bait becoming non-toxic?


If you are talking about the original deer repellent trial on farmed deer. The deer were exposed to the baits over 3 fine nights only. All the baits were counted into the paddocks and all the baits were removed after 3 fine nights.

The baits were not exposed to moisture and the deer were not left in contact with the baits until they became non-toxic.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #98 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 4:38pm
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And deer in farm paddocks are likely better fed than the wild variety.

If the figure I hear of dead deer tallied over a 10% sample that covered 6500ha; then over the 61.500 ha treated there is a possibility of 3450 deer killed depending on distribution variables.

I am certainly looking forward to seeing a detailed report.

DoC has control over Molesworth and would be the key player in approvals and conditions pertaining to that drop program. They will be hiding behind TBfree NZ LTD. I'd bet the more intelligent variety of DoC and OSPRI staff are shitting themselves over this right now.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #99 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 5:39pm
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huntnfish wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 4:38pm:
And deer in farm paddocks are likely better fed than the wild variety.

If the figure I hear of dead deer tallied over a 10% sample that covered 6500ha; then over the 61.500 ha treated there is a possibility of 3450 deer killed depending on distribution variables.

I am certainly looking forward to seeing a detailed report.

DoC has control over Molesworth and would be the key player in approvals and conditions pertaining to that drop program. They will be hiding behind TBfree NZ LTD. I'd bet the more intelligent variety of DoC and OSPRI staff are shitting themselves over this right now.


Why?
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #100 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 6:09pm
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Repellent Trial by G.Nugent. Page 21 22 gives results whole thing is 41 pages but interesting.

http://www.tbfree.org.nz/Portals/0/2014AugResearchPapers/Nugent%20G,%20Morriss%2...
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #101 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 7:47pm
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BC , DOC and OSPRI/ Tbfree may or may not be concerned about the deer kill in this latest operation but one thing is for sure if something isn't changed(sowing rate, repellant etc) the next drop next year will be just as devasting on the deer and just as easy to see carcass wise.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #102 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 8:09pm
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puddleduk wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 7:47pm:
BC , DOC and OSPRI/ Tbfree may or may not be concerned about the deer kill in this latest operation but one thing is for sure if something isn't changed(sowing rate, repellant etc) the next drop next year will be just as devasting on the deer and just as easy to see carcass wise.


I don't doubt that. I'm not sure though that anyone will think that a repeat is significant apart from the minority of the population that oppose 1080 and us hunters. That is why I questioned why DOC/Ospri staff will be "shitting themselves".

One hope is that the Marlborough NZDA research (which appears sound, and which we should support through give alittlelot)  turns up some solid scientific evidence that there has been a significant impact on the herd and that alternatives to mitigate that should be used (I can't speculate what the alternatives might be, albeit that a lower sowing rate and repellant is talked about).

  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #103 - Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:45pm
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BC wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 8:09pm:
puddleduk wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 7:47pm:
BC , DOC and OSPRI/ Tbfree may or may not be concerned about the deer kill in this latest operation but one thing is for sure if something isn't changed(sowing rate, repellant etc) the next drop next year will be just as devasting on the deer and just as easy to see carcass wise.


I don't doubt that. I'm not sure though that anyone will think that a repeat is significant apart from the minority of the population that oppose 1080 and us hunters. That is why I questioned why DOC/Ospri staff will be "shitting themselves".

One hope is that the Marlborough NZDA research (which appears sound, and which we should support through give alittlelot)  turns up some solid scientific evidence that there has been a significant impact on the herd and that alternatives to mitigate that should be used (I can't speculate what the alternatives might be, albeit that a lower sowing rate and repellant is talked about).


I just dont understand quite alot of the people on here and their thinking.
Its all good to say hopefully theres going to be some solid evidence that theres been a significant impact on the deer herd but so what!!
Thats the whole idea, the drop didnt use the max dose just to kill possums!  Deer were a target "by kill", the more the better and if you dont understand that you pretty darn thick.
The powers that be wanted deer killed in this operation, 1080 kills deer, its a fact.
Molesworths is  a important deer hunting area and trophy stag area to boot.
NZDA have told them this, hunters and others have told them this and requested repellant etc.
All TBfree did was increase the dose, used deer repellant in such a small area it was a joke and bombed the place, and then said it was a nine year cycle.
Wake up people, this is a possum and deer kill drop, its DOC and the Radical Green in charge that controls it thru TBfree and why the hell any survey confirming what they want and already know  is any use is a waste of space
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #104 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:07am
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madfish71 wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 10:45pm:
BC wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 8:09pm:
puddleduk wrote on Nov 30th, 2017 at 7:47pm:
BC , DOC and OSPRI/ Tbfree may or may not be concerned about the deer kill in this latest operation but one thing is for sure if something isn't changed(sowing rate, repellant etc) the next drop next year will be just as devasting on the deer and just as easy to see carcass wise.


I don't doubt that. I'm not sure though that anyone will think that a repeat is significant apart from the minority of the population that oppose 1080 and us hunters. That is why I questioned why DOC/Ospri staff will be "shitting themselves".

One hope is that the Marlborough NZDA research (which appears sound, and which we should support through give alittlelot)  turns up some solid scientific evidence that there has been a significant impact on the herd and that alternatives to mitigate that should be used (I can't speculate what the alternatives might be, albeit that a lower sowing rate and repellant is talked about).


I just dont understand quite alot of the people on here and their thinking.
Its all good to say hopefully theres going to be some solid evidence that theres been a significant impact on the deer herd but so what!!
Thats the whole idea, the drop didnt use the max dose just to kill possums!  Deer were a target "by kill", the more the better and if you dont understand that you pretty darn thick.
The powers that be wanted deer killed in this operation, 1080 kills deer, its a fact.
Molesworths is  a important deer hunting area and trophy stag area to boot.
NZDA have told them this, hunters and others have told them this and requested repellant etc.
All TBfree did was increase the dose, used deer repellant in such a small area it was a joke and bombed the place, and then said it was a nine year cycle.
Wake up people, this is a possum and deer kill drop, its DOC and the Radical Green in charge that controls it thru TBfree and why the hell any survey confirming what they want and already know  is any use is a waste of space


Most of what you say could well be true (including that I might be thick). What you haven't touched on though is a strategy that might make a difference. What Marlborough nzda are doing might well seem counter intuitive to you but that is exactly the purpose and strategy. The are doing subtle, They are being clever and relying on countering what Ospri say, not what you think Ospri think (which they might well think).
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #105 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:13am
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I've seen 'increased the [1080] dose' claimed. What was the actual toxin rate? Not the bait amount (2kg/ha is pretty standard). 0.15% 1080 is the standard poison content, what was used here?
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #106 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:25am
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Have any deer that have been shot by WARO in the recent past in this area tested positive for TB ?



  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #107 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:38am
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Exactly BC. Also what the Marlborough NZDA is doing may or may not disprove what a lot of people think and that is the so called lower sow rates of today don't kill deer like they used to when 10kg/ha etc was used. A huge amount of effort has gone into this survey by this NZDA branch and especially a handful of its members who have a passion for this areas deer herd.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #108 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:55am
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Salmoner wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:25am:
Have any deer that have been shot by WARO in the recent past in this area tested positive for TB ?


A small quantity (less than 10) of the recovered animals from the mission before the poisoning, tested positive apparently.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #109 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 7:14am
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Oscar wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:13am:
I've seen 'increased the [1080] dose' claimed. What was the actual toxin rate? Not the bait amount (2kg/ha is pretty standard). 0.15% 1080 is the standard poison content, what was used here?


Oscar, I haven't read anything on this thread, re what the actual "dose" was. ie as you say, "Toxin Rate".
But plenty of statements re the "Rate" was increased

I doubt the rate was over the normal .15 percent of 1080 toxin per Tonne of bait

The registration for 1080 use is .15 percent, or lower as I recall

A sowing rate of 2 kgs per hectare is low, compared to the norm of 3 - 5 kgs not that long ago

before stating "facts" it would pay for some to actually check first

  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #110 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 7:56am
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[/quote]
I just dont understand quite alot of the people on here and their thinking.
Its all good to say hopefully theres going to be some solid evidence that theres been a significant impact on the deer herd but so what!!
Thats the whole idea, the drop didnt use the max dose just to kill possums!  Deer were a target "by kill", the more the better and if you dont understand that you pretty darn thick.
The powers that be wanted deer killed in this operation, 1080 kills deer, its a fact.
Molesworths is  a important deer hunting area and trophy stag area to boot.
NZDA have told them this, hunters and others have told them this and requested repellant etc.
All TBfree did was increase the dose, used deer repellant in such a small area it was a joke and bombed the place, and then said it was a nine year cycle.
Wake up people, this is a possum and deer kill drop, its DOC and the Radical Green in charge that controls it thru TBfree and why the hell any survey confirming what they want and already know  is any use is a waste of space [/quote]

Most of what you say could well be true (including that I might be thick). What you haven't touched on though is a strategy that might make a difference. What Marlborough nzda are doing might well seem counter intuitive to you but that is exactly the purpose and strategy. The are doing subtle, They are being clever and relying on countering what Ospri say, not what you think Ospri think (which they might well think). [/quote]

I doubt you are thick BC Grin, i might be thick Wink but i understand what the NZDa is trying to do but its at quite a cost to acheive what ?
We all know, or should that this operation isnt just about killing possums, deer are more than a welcome ""By Kill"", the more the better and you might as well say they a target as well.
The suvey isnt going to prove anything that TBFREE dont know already.
All the suvey may prove is  DOC, TBFree are always going to denied that deer are a target, that its only a by kill and doesnt kill that many.
Its either going to show that they are lyers, but anyone with half a brain knows this or the operation hasnt worked as good as TBFREe hoped and may require extra drops to get the results of more deer deaths.

DOC and the like are in control, the damage has been done, the deer numbers have been reduced and the operation is going to carry on for the next nine years and they wont give a hoot about this suvey.
Ok, maybe if the NZDA go public and stir the pot, outrage over the results etc TBFREE may go ok, we do more repellant.
They may do 6000ha ! wooh or something silly but in the end they not going to do stuff all that may reduce the deer deaths to a level that they dont want.
They want the deer reduced, the damage has already been done, and deer numbers will contiue to be reduced because thats part of the plan.
The huge cost of this and what may be acheived doesnt balance itself, its money in a pit and as NZDA head office doesnt rock the boat anymore, supports behind the scenes becausde they cant see themselves attacking DOC stuff all going to happen.
But we see i suppose, i could be wrong and TBfree may go, yes., too many dead deer, we stop the drops  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #111 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 8:01am
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Pesticide summary on DOC website says what the dose is, 0.15 % the norm.
The "low" sow rate of 2kg/ha is still more than enough to kill next to all the deer in this sort of country, something I and others have witnessed more than once now.
Have a read of the pro poison bible Dave Hansfords Protecting Paradise page 32.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #112 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 8:36am
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Mathias wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:55am:
Salmoner wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 6:25am:
Have any deer that have been shot by WARO in the recent past in this area tested positive for TB ?


A small quantity (less than 10) of the recovered animals from the mission before the poisoning, tested positive apparently.


10 out of how many in the sample ?
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #113 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 9:08am
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madfish71 wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 7:56am:

I just dont understand quite alot of the people on here and their thinking.
[/quote]

Just don't bother to try and understand them..
they may one day when the bubble bursts ..suddenly wake up  Grin Grin the pro 1080 lot are in a deep sleep most of the time  Cheesy
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #114 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 10:00am
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Aerial poisoning has been carried out on a regular basis, on Molesworth since 1950 when a Tiger Moth from Airworks Christchurch, piloted by Bill Lee first dropped carrot baits along the Acheron faces. Be interesting to see an estimate of the tonnage applied over the past sixtyseven years.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #115 - Dec 1st, 2017 at 10:18am
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Must have been a lot of 1080 carrot at times pre RCD. Has been the odd pindone drop since then with little or no effect on the deer in that same country.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #116 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 6:34am
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1080 oats were responsible for the demise of Chukar on Molesworth over 30 years ago. Back in the day  Roll Eyes it used to be applied at 0.04% on oats and 0.08% on carrots if my memory serves me right.

Going forward what can we do to limit deaths during the rest of the operation.

When are we likely to get 'official' results from the survey and more importantly how many live deer were seen? and was the area flown during times when live animals were more likely to be seen?
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #117 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 6:56am
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #118 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 9:12am
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Lets hope that the 20K being spent by the NZDA and Marlborough members time can produce some hard evidence on numbers of dead deer on their survey.  By hoping, I mean being allowed to actually publish this publicly and not be over ruled by their national executive and national president for fear of upsetting their relationships with DoC and relevant stakeholders.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #119 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 11:33am
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Mathias wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 9:12am:
Lets hope that the 20K being spent by the NZDA and Marlborough members time can produce some hard evidence on numbers of dead deer on their survey.  By hoping, I mean being allowed to actually publish this publicly and not be over ruled by their national executive and national president for fear of upsetting their relationships with DoC and relevant stakeholders. 


It depends on what Marlborough nzda want to achieve. If their purpose is to gain leverage in negotiations with OSPRI to better protect the Molsworth herd in the future, going public immediately and making a fuss might not best suit their purpose.

If though they simply want to pull in behind the general hub bub of anti 1080 (and maybe gain no leverage through being tarred by some pretty irrational brushes) they will publish and publicise the results immediately.

A combination of both would be my chosen strategy. Firstly negotiate under the shadow of the research results (and maybe limited public dissemination), and if that fails to secondly fully publish and mount a professional strategically planned public campaign.



  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #120 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 2:15pm
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It’s a shame that such a herd with good trophy potential has been hammered, kudos to Marlborough NZDA for spending the time & money to get some facts.
All the folk who got ballot blocks for the roar will be spewing.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #121 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 2:55pm
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Kurt Bayer
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Hi Kurt,

I am very interested in this article you wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11951166

Scroll down to the paragraph in which OSPRI is quoted;

"Although possums are the main source of wildlife infection, it is difficult and costly to directly detect TB in the possum population itself, because the disease often only occurs in small population clusters."

The words: "and because OSPRI relies totally on aerial 1080 to control TB possums and 1080 cannot find the TB possum population clusters, that we also call TB hot-spots" should be added to make this statement fully truthful.

The fact is, there has been work done, by contract possum trappers, that has proved to be able to identify the small TB possum clusters (TB hot-spots), by autopsying all the possums caught during the initial control work,  therefore, the trappers can then target future possum control in those small areas where TB possum clusters have been found. This means that there is no by-kill of any other animals, TB is eradicated from possums quicker and less money is spent on TB targeted possum control.

However, OSPRI is following a TB eradication program that only considers the more expensive, guaranteed to provide work for the aerial 1080 industry for 10-20 years, as the only option for the possum control work OSPRI is being paid to do through money forcibly collected from taxpayers, ratepayers and farmers.

The area surveyed is 10% of the area covered this year and found 345 dead deer. This would put the total deer kill at 3,450 dead deer left to rot. This years operation is a third of the total area to be targeted with 1080. By the time the whole area has been treated with 1080 there will be 10,350 deer killed and left to rot. This is only the first phase as the whole area will be treated, with 1080, twice more, this bringing the expected final tally of dead deer to 31,050. If there are still cattle TB reactors being recorded, after the full 9 year 1080 poisoning program, then aerial 1080 poisoning will continue for an indefinite period of time.

The dead deer have been recorded even though OSPRI is quoted, in the same article, as saying: "Ospri recognises that there is always a risk of deer by-kill as a result of 1080 application for pest control and is committed to working with hunting groups to minimise the impacts on these populations through targeted use of deer repellent".

With venison returning around $8/kg, to the producer, and if the average weight of the deer left to rot on Molesworth is 60kg the total financial cost of the wasted venison resource would be $14,904,000. This amounts to $82.80/ha, over the whole 9 years, or $27.60/ha per aerial 1080 operation. $27.60 is 10 cents more than Nick Smith quoted to me in answer to my OIA question about the cost of the 2014 Battle for Our Birds 1080 operations, with OSPRI and DOC recently quoting aerial 1080 costs as low as $16.50/ha. This means that OSPRI is spending less money on aerial 1080 than the natural, harvestable resource, described as by-kill, that OSPRI is destroying, with this equation only taking into account the basic value of the venison and doesn't attempt to quantify the lost income from the destruction of trophy stags that hunters, from all over the world, come to Molesworth to hunt, or the value of the work lost that could have been generated by wild venison harvesting, processing and exporting. Nor does it quantify the value lost through the destruction of the possum fur during the initial knock-down operations which would add millions to the total lost opportunities cost.

The only real beneficiaries, of the OSPRI aerial 1080 operations on Molesworth, are the small group of people that are profiting from OSPRI's policy of large scale aerial 1080 operations.

If we do the calculations we get:

Aerial 1080 cost: $16.50 (lowest current aerial 1080 quote) x 60,000ha = $990,000 x 3 areas = $2,970,000 x 3 times through = $8,910,000 + $14,904,000 (wasted venison value) = $23,804,000 + $2,700,000 (wasted possum fur at 3 possums/ha) = $26,504,000 plus the unknown value of trophy stags that I have no idea of the value. Aerial 1080 is not guaranteed to rid the possum population of TB within 9 years. OSPRI's history is that large areas are under OSPRI possum control regimes for a lot longer than 9 years.

Contract trappers cost: $10 x 180,000ha = $1,800,000 x 9 years = $16,200,000. Contract trappers are highly likely to rid the possum population of TB with 9 years.

In other words, OSPRI is destroying a much greater value of natural resources than OSPRI is spending and OSPRI is spending far more money that OSPRI needs to to achieve OSPRI's stated objective of eradicating TB from the Molesworth possum population.

Please note, that the AHB/OSPRI 2010 cost review listed aerial 1080 costs that added up to $57/ha. If $57/ha is used, instead of $16.50/ha, the total cost of aerial 1080 is $40.50 ($57 - $16.50 = $40.50/ha) x 540,000ha = $21,870,000 + $26,504,000 = $48,374,000.

Is OSPRI's total reliance on aerial 1080 the best way to use the financial resources it has access to? This question should be asked while taking into consideration that Molesworth is a working station that is farming and harvesting animals and cannot be considered as "remote and inaccessible" which is the term OSPRI normally trots out to justify the use of aerial 1080.

I have asked OSPRI for OSPRI's written definition of the terms "remote" and "inaccessible". OSPRI replied that they have not defined these terms and OSPRI has no intention of defining the terms  "remote" and "inaccessible", in the context that OSPRI is using them, to justify the use of aerial 1080 over large areas of NZ's forested and, now, farmed land.

Kind regards....Marty Foote
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #122 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 3:17pm
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At an Ospri meeting earlier this year I asked the question about finding a possum with TB and the response was its harder than looking for a needle in a haystack.  I told them that firing 1080 over the place while they sit and watch computer screens and a model programme they will never find a possum with TB. You have to be out in the wilderness to do that. No answer for that.  They also stated that the biggest mover of TB was unlawful stock movement. I then told them they will never get rid of TB while man walks on this country as there will always be those who did give jack shit about following regulations etc.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #123 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 7:29pm
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Thanks Marty! I am not so good at math but numbers you have showed are rather concerning...  Shocked

Everyone happy about THIS use of our taxes? I am not!  Angry
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #124 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 8:11pm
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Pete82 wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 7:29pm:
Thanks Marty! I am not so good at math but numbers you have showed are rather concerning...  Shocked

Everyone happy about THIS use of our taxes? I am not!  Angry


I'm happy about the way they are funded and the use of tax to eliminate TB (but am not happy about what's happened on Molsworth if it is as reported).

OSPRI's TBfree programme is funded through a government-industry partnership. The government has committed $100 million for 2016 to 2020. Farmers will contribute $150 million over the same period through DairyNZ, Beef+Lamb New Zealand, Deer Industry NZ and livestock export industry levies.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #125 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 8:23pm
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BC wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 8:11pm:
Pete82 wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 7:29pm:
Thanks Marty! I am not so good at math but numbers you have showed are rather concerning...  Shocked

Everyone happy about THIS use of our taxes? I am not!  Angry


I'm happy about the way they are funded and the use of tax to eliminate TB (but am not happy about what's happened on Molsworth if it is as reported).

OSPRI's TBfree programme is funded through a government-industry partnership. The government has committed $100 million for 2016 to 2020. Farmers will contribute $150 million over the same period through DairyNZ, Beef+Lamb New Zealand, Deer Industry NZ and livestock export industry levies.


That is great news BC. Instead of you and I hitting our heads together, for the only obvious reason that we both like having our heads hurt, we might be able to work together to help solve a problem that AHB/TBFree/OSPRI has been creating for the last 3 decades.

Molesworth is nothing more than a "canary in the coalmine". The shit is going to hit the fan and we are all looking to see where different people get spun to.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #126 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 9:20pm
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DoC, AHB, TBfree , OSPRI know all about blackmail (oops-- ah "bargaining" !) BC.
AHB are past masters, especially before they finally were forced to get under the laws of the OIA and Ombudsman's Acts and tell at least some of the truth.

It would be really great if the whole pro poisoning bunch would simply be totally honest; as required by the Parliamentary Manual and the Civil Service Codes of Conduct.  If that were to happen and be enforced, I doubt 1080 and similar poisons would be present except in very small quantities.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #127 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 9:24pm
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There's an  old saying.  Wink

"LEOPARDS don't change their spots", Cool
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #128 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 10:08pm
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Well folks I cam tell you, for a north islander who's has been waiting (3yrs) to get a ballot into Molesworth I got one for next March.Yay me !!! My mates and I got one.

It appears the block we got was ground fricking zero for this effing drop.
Well fkc me.
T o say im pissed about it dosn't sum it up.
Im more than pissed.
Not only I'm pissed about the 1080 indiscriminately spewed across the countryside, Im REALLY pissed that DOC knew this was in planning and still encouraged people like myself to enter the ballot for Molesworth.
Man that irks me.
Its like inviting you round for a pissup and when you get there say haha I gave all the piss to the cops!

I ,and my crew are all wondering if it is worthwhile even bothering to come south.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #129 - Dec 2nd, 2017 at 10:24pm
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zxreindeer wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 10:08pm:
Well folks I cam tell you, for a north islander who's has been waiting (3yrs) to get a ballot into Molesworth I got one for next March.Yay me !!! My mates and I got one.

It appears the block we got was ground fricking zero for this effing drop.
Well fkc me.
T o say im pissed about it dosn't sum it up.
Im more than pissed.
Not only I'm pissed about the 1080 indiscriminately spewed across the countryside, Im REALLY pissed that DOC knew this was in planning and still encouraged people like myself to enter the ballot for Molesworth.
Man that irks me.
Its like inviting you round for a pissup and when you get there say haha I gave all the piss to the cops!

I ,and my crew are all wondering if it is worthwhile even bothering to come south.


Yeah...that's the deal.

DOC and OSPRI hold all the cards and they can make your hunting experience either awesome or lousy depending on how they think you will help them.

You have to make your own choice about what is important to you.


  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #130 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 6:48am
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The area surveyed is 10% of the area covered this year and found 345 dead deer. This would put the total deer kill at 3,450 dead deer left to rot. This years operation is a third of the total area to be targeted with 1080. By the time the whole area has been treated with 1080 there will be 10,350 deer killed and left to rot. This is only the first phase as the whole area will be treated, with 1080, twice more, this bringing the expected final tally of dead deer to 31,050.


Not so sure about the maths myself. i doubt that there will be the same number of deer killed on the third round of poisoning; there won't be many left to kill.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #131 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 6:49am
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zxreindeer wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 10:08pm:
Well folks I cam tell you, for a north islander who's has been waiting (3yrs) to get a ballot into Molesworth I got one for next March.Yay me !!! My mates and I got one.

It appears the block we got was ground fricking zero for this effing drop.
Well fkc me.
T o say im pissed about it dosn't sum it up.
Im more than pissed.
Not only I'm pissed about the 1080 indiscriminately spewed across the countryside, Im REALLY pissed that DOC knew this was in planning and still encouraged people like myself to enter the ballot for Molesworth.
Man that irks me.
Its like inviting you round for a pissup and when you get there say haha I gave all the piss to the cops!

I ,and my crew are all wondering if it is worthwhile even bothering to come south.


As a Hanmer local. I'd be happy for you to hire a local r22 and I could have a wee rekky for you Smiley I'm half pie serious, I wouldn't mind seeing what numbers are left out there.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #132 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:12am
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Backcountry Bob wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 6:48am:
Quote:
The area surveyed is 10% of the area covered this year and found 345 dead deer. This would put the total deer kill at 3,450 dead deer left to rot. This years operation is a third of the total area to be targeted with 1080. By the time the whole area has been treated with 1080 there will be 10,350 deer killed and left to rot. This is only the first phase as the whole area will be treated, with 1080, twice more, this bringing the expected final tally of dead deer to 31,050.


Not so sure about the maths myself. i doubt that there will be the same number of deer killed on the third round of poisoning; there won't be many left to kill.

 
According to most of the scientific reports I have read, 1080 doesn't interfere with the long term viability of deer herds even without the use of deer repellent. The same scientists have also been a party to reports that say that there is no easy way to find the possum TB hot-spots that aerial 1080 is unable to find.

I personally know the second statement is crap and I have put my money where my mouth is to prove it over 20 years ago. With regard the the first, deer related, statement, one branch of NZDA has finally put their money where their mouth is and has come up with results that they would have got if the same financial commitment had been made 20 years ago.

  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #133 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:19am
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BC wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 8:11pm:
Pete82 wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 7:29pm:
Thanks Marty! I am not so good at math but numbers you have showed are rather concerning...  Shocked

Everyone happy about THIS use of our taxes? I am not!  Angry


I'm happy about the way they are funded and the use of tax to eliminate TB (but am not happy about what's happened on Molsworth if it is as reported).

OSPRI's TBfree programme is funded through a government-industry partnership. The government has committed $100 million for 2016 to 2020. Farmers will contribute $150 million over the same period through DairyNZ, Beef+Lamb New Zealand, Deer Industry NZ and livestock export industry levies.


I do agree with getting rid of TB as its threatening primal industry which is essentially core of the economy, no doubt about that.

I do agree with 1080 if used in small, well targeted quantities, NOT aerial. What I don't agree with is that government is spending twice that much do do all that and companies doing it are lying, careless and basically untouchable...  Undecided

Also at the end of the day, spending that much money is essentially making meat and dairy products little but more expensive...

What I really really like is what Marty said - that hunters and possum trappers can work together. And when doing so we can all save heaps of money and goverment then can use them somewhere else (in ideal world)... Fairy tales? Maybe...But to see if its going to work we all we need to start doing something about it! Cool
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #134 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 10:24am
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Pete82 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:19am:
Also at the end of the day, spending that much money is essentially making meat and dairy products little but more expensive...


What's your reasoning behind that claim?
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #135 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 3:12pm
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Oscar wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 10:24am:
Pete82 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:19am:
Also at the end of the day, spending that much money is essentially making meat and dairy products little but more expensive...


What's your reasoning behind that claim?


I was just stating obvious - everything has a bigger picture, its funny how farmers levies are wasted partially on funding OSPRI when someone can do it a lot more effectively and cheaper...

I am not anti-OSPRI or anti-1080 but would love to see thing working with more ease...

Also not bitching about meat or dairy prices and trying to blame 1080 for expensive butter but its funny ho everything is connected, don't you think?  Cheesy
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #136 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 3:43pm
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Not a particularly solid argument given most of TBFree's pest control/management budget goes on things other than aerial 1080, and that the reduction in TB has a benefit to productivity and profit for both beef and dairy industries. It might be worth working out the cost of the TB slaughter levy per kg of meat or per kg of Milk Solids.

I know the Forum sounds like its the world's leading authority on bTB management sometimes, but it does pay to take what we read on here with a grain of salt  Smiley

  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #137 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 4:12pm
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The best way of generating some real heat would be to grab
50/60 carcases and put into the public food chain sit back and
watch the crap fly then.If we got it into some restraunts the
govt would have some real shit on its hands.Theres another way
but i wouldnt publiclly say that.This statement is a joke, did you
hear me
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #138 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 5:21pm
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chilly wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 4:12pm:
The best way of generating some real heat would be to grab
50/60 carcases and put into the public food chain sit back and
watch the crap fly then.If we got it into some restraunts the
govt would have some real shit on its hands.Theres another way
but i wouldnt publiclly say that.This statement is a joke, did you
hear me


More likely the person delivering will go to jail. The paperwork is regulated and horrentous. Everything is traceable.

Remember the bloke sitting in jail right now for threatening to put 1080 in babyfood? 

Precisly because of stupid ideas such as that, and yours, is why we have so much regulation in the food chain in this country, directly contributing to making it so diffucult to run a small business making and selling homemade meat and dairy products to the wider public in this country.  The whole thing limits creativity and the free market of otherwise diverse and delicious products entering the food chain.

Variety and small production without crippling regulation is commonplace in other countries where posien use is not so widespread.

In europe any one of us could be making our own venison sausages and selling them at local markets.

  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #139 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 5:54pm
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chilly wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 4:12pm:
The best way of generating some real heat would be to grab
50/60 carcases and put into the public food chain sit back and
watch the crap fly then.If we got it into some restraunts the
govt would have some real shit on its hands.Theres another way
but i wouldnt publiclly say that.This statement is a joke, did you
hear me


F**n idiot joke or not!
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #140 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 5:55pm
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Oscar wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 3:43pm:
Not a particularly solid argument given most of TBFree's pest control/management budget goes on things other than aerial 1080, and that the reduction in TB has a benefit to productivity and profit for both beef and dairy industries. It might be worth working out the cost of the TB slaughter levy per kg of meat or per kg of Milk Solids.

I know the Forum sounds like its the world's leading authority on bTB management sometimes, but it does pay to take what we read on here with a grain of salt  Smiley



Indeed!
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #141 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 6:12pm
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headcase wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 5:21pm:
chilly wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 4:12pm:
The best way of generating some real heat would be to grab
50/60 carcases and put into the public food chain sit back and
watch the crap fly then.If we got it into some restraunts the
govt would have some real shit on its hands.Theres another way
but i wouldnt publiclly say that.This statement is a joke, did you
hear me


More likely the person delivering will go to jail. The paperwork is regulated and horrentous. Everything is traceable.

Remember the bloke sitting in jail right now for threatening put 1080 in babyfood? 

Precisly because of stupid ideas such as that, and yours, is why we have so much regulation in the food chain in this country, directly contributing to making it so diffucult to run a small business making and selling homemade meat and dairy products to the wider public in this country.  The whole thing limits creativity and the free market of otherwise diverse and delicious products entering the food chain.

Variety and small production without crippling regulation is commonplace in other countries where posien use is not so widespread.

In europe any one of us could be making our own venison sausages and selling them at local markets.



Kerr did what he did out of frustration with the 1080 industry refusing to allow competitive tendering.

You will recall that before Kerr was caught the PM was carrying on about eco-terrorism and how the perpetrator would be punished to full extent of the law.

After they caught Kerr and realised that he was a poison industry insider and the 1080 had been given to him by the government, they changed their tune and did a deal that ensured that his knowledge of how the poison industry operates would not be publicly heard as a part of his defense.

Kerr would not have done what he did do and nobody would be making similar suggestions if the 1080 industry started behaving in a reasonable manner.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #142 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 6:44pm
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Marty, You do your credability a disservice by suggesting that its ok to threaten to indroduce the very poisen that so disgusts you into the food chain.

Do two wrongs make a right?

  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #143 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 7:17pm
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Oscar wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 3:43pm:
Not a particularly solid argument given most of TBFree's pest control/management budget goes on things other than aerial 1080, and that the reduction in TB has a benefit to productivity and profit for both beef and dairy industries. It might be worth working out the cost of the TB slaughter levy per kg of meat or per kg of Milk Solids.

I know the Forum sounds like its the world's leading authority on bTB management sometimes, but it does pay to take what we read on here with a grain of salt  Smiley



Yes I have noticed that forum is full of "experts" on just about enything...  Grin

And with the levies I think that it is marginal, buts its still there...Anyway tjats not the point of this thred so lets just cut it out from here on...  Cool
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #144 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:14pm
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zxreindeer wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 10:08pm:
Well folks I cam tell you, for a north islander who's has been waiting (3yrs) to get a ballot into Molesworth I got one for next March.Yay me !!! My mates and I got one.

It appears the block we got was ground fricking zero for this effing drop.
Well fkc me.
T o say im pissed about it dosn't sum it up.
Im more than pissed.
Not only I'm pissed about the 1080 indiscriminately spewed across the countryside, Im REALLY pissed that DOC knew this was in planning and still encouraged people like myself to enter the ballot for Molesworth.
Man that irks me.
Its like inviting you round for a pissup and when you get there say haha I gave all the piss to the cops!


I ,and my crew are all wondering if it is worthwhile even bothering to come south.



How do you know which blocks have been 1080, the website shows all the blocks 1080 surely they can't do all of them the 1st year? Any info cheers
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #145 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:39pm
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Marty Foote wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 6:12pm:
headcase wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 5:21pm:
chilly wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 4:12pm:
The best way of generating some real heat would be to grab
50/60 carcases and put into the public food chain sit back and
watch the crap fly then.If we got it into some restraunts the
govt would have some real shit on its hands.Theres another way
but i wouldnt publiclly say that.This statement is a joke, did you
hear me


More likely the person delivering will go to jail. The paperwork is regulated and horrentous. Everything is traceable.

Remember the bloke sitting in jail right now for threatening put 1080 in babyfood? 

Precisly because of stupid ideas such as that, and yours, is why we have so much regulation in the food chain in this country, directly contributing to making it so diffucult to run a small business making and selling homemade meat and dairy products to the wider public in this country.  The whole thing limits creativity and the free market of otherwise diverse and delicious products entering the food chain.

Variety and small production without crippling regulation is commonplace in other countries where posien use is not so widespread.

In europe any one of us could be making our own venison sausages and selling them at local markets.



Kerr did what he did out of frustration with the 1080 industry refusing to allow competitive tendering.

You will recall that before Kerr was caught the PM was carrying on about eco-terrorism and how the perpetrator would be punished to full extent of the law.

After they caught Kerr and realised that he was a poison industry insider and the 1080 had been given to him by the government, they changed their tune and did a deal that ensured that his knowledge of how the poison industry operates would not be publicly heard as a part of his defense.

Kerr would not have done what he did do and nobody would be making similar suggestions if the 1080 industry started behaving in a reasonable manner.


Kerr's was hardly a proportionate response. More like the actions of fruit loop.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #146 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:49pm
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Targetsikastags wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:14pm:
zxreindeer wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 10:08pm:
Well folks I cam tell you, for a north islander who's has been waiting (3yrs) to get a ballot into Molesworth I got one for next March.Yay me !!! My mates and I got one.

It appears the block we got was ground fricking zero for this effing drop.
Well fkc me.
T o say im pissed about it dosn't sum it up.
Im more than pissed.
Not only I'm pissed about the 1080 indiscriminately spewed across the countryside, Im REALLY pissed that DOC knew this was in planning and still encouraged people like myself to enter the ballot for Molesworth.
Man that irks me.
Its like inviting you round for a pissup and when you get there say haha I gave all the piss to the cops!


I ,and my crew are all wondering if it is worthwhile even bothering to come south.



How do you know which blocks have been 1080, the website shows all the blocks 1080 surely they can't do all of them the 1st year? Any info cheers


By looking at the Molesworth ballot map and overlaying it with the TB Free treatment area year one map.

Blocks that got 1080 this year are
Lower Archeron
McGuires
Pig Trough
Bullock Gully
Dillon
Bullen
Clarence Faces
Half Moon
Tweed
Lizard
Elliot
Lake McRae
Sawnee
Upper Archeron

For the clever folks out there you will notice that this is near all the blocks available for the Molesworth roar ballot.
The ONLY block treated with deer repellant is a NO HUNTING block Angry

But if you were lucky you have drawn
Chimeny
Yarra
Five Mile
Long Gully
Makuratawhai
Dog Stream
These are the only blocks to not be dosed with 1080 in year one.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #147 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 9:03pm
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Hell,thats a lot of blocks,how long do you have them for?
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #148 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 9:08pm
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Targetsikastags wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 8:14pm:
zxreindeer wrote on Dec 2nd, 2017 at 10:08pm:
Well folks I cam tell you, for a north islander who's has been waiting (3yrs) to get a ballot into Molesworth I got one for next March.Yay me !!! My mates and I got one.

It appears the block we got was ground fricking zero for this effing drop.
Well fkc me.
T o say im pissed about it dosn't sum it up.
Im more than pissed.
Not only I'm pissed about the 1080 indiscriminately spewed across the countryside, Im REALLY pissed that DOC knew this was in planning and still encouraged people like myself to enter the ballot for Molesworth.
Man that irks me.
Its like inviting you round for a pissup and when you get there say haha I gave all the piss to the cops!


I ,and my crew are all wondering if it is worthwhile even bothering to come south.



How do you know which blocks have been 1080, the website shows all the blocks 1080 surely they can't do all of them the 1st year? Any info cheers


Pretty sure it is on the DOC web site. otherwise OSPRI. Overlay the aerial control map against the ballot block map. I checked and many blocks have had aerial 1080. Thankfully I have got a block that hasn't. If I had I would have passed it in. I suspect that this will impact on all blocks though as stags travel a long way in the roar. I support the eradication of TB and helping our biodiversity but I am really struggling with this one. Why could repellant not be used? This reminds me of the Wakatipu Whitetail scenario. The hunting in Molesworth is in such demand in yet the number of blocks allocated are limited by the farming operation. The time of year is also limited and the place closes up right when the chams start rutting. You tow the line constantly and then this happens and then you hear that the manager was also letting a chopper in to shoot animals prior! (if this is true - I hope not). We have an incredible opportunity in Molesworth for good managed hunting. Numbers and quality of animals could be manipulated easily. I started going there not that long ago and it is a stunning place. You cant say that deer are a problem when there are thousands of cattle allowed to be run there too! I would like everyone to look at this thread, read the ten pages prior and then sit and think about another thread on here at the moment about a hunting licence. We need to fund better management of hunting folks. Desperately! Hunters need to get over that and support it. Management of hunting does not mean more deer, it means better managed deer. If you sit there and say that you wont support a hunting licence administered by hunters then you will get what you deserve in the future and by that I mean probably no hunting! All those benefiting from hunting need to be dipping in to their pockets too. By that I mean major retailers etc. Rather than a licence fee, I would support a percentage levy on all designated hunting equipment. Complex but doable and everyone contributes. Don't blame me if you buy three x five grand rifles a year  Grin Grin
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #149 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 9:28pm
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What about taking a couple of hand raised fawns ( noxious pests)to parliament lawns for a week of petting zoo then invite the ministers responsible for allowing the use of this toxin to hand feed them some green deer nuts then stay another day or two. That might change the mind set of a few, would have the spca on board fairly smartly I would assume. Not sure of the laws of killing noxious pests in public?
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #150 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 9:50pm
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I think we all need to take a step backwards and wait for the 'official' results to become available. At the end of the day its not really about the number killed but the number left. I'm hoping that with their increased weight and body size some of the bigger stags have survived. Same with the Chamois, there are significant numbers out there along with some good trophy bucks.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #151 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 10:18pm
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Wait for the results? Those baits will be in near perfect state for the next 4 months most likely. Is Ospri/ doc going to fly over in 4 months time and then tell us the good news. Someone must be due to put up a hunting story from in there by now. It is open for hunting.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #152 - Dec 3rd, 2017 at 11:42pm
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m robbo wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 10:18pm:
Wait for the results? Those baits will be in near perfect state for the next 4 months most likely. Is Ospri/ doc going to fly over in 4 months time and then tell us the good news. Someone must be due to put up a hunting story from in there by now. It is open for hunting.


Maybe not, there has been some significant thunder storms the last few days.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #153 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:26am
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I wonder what happened to the profit of said 200 odd deer shot off a state owned enterprise? Could have been used to pay for more repellant or is that a physical oxymoron??
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #154 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 6:24am
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Pete82 wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 7:17pm:
Oscar wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 3:43pm:
Not a particularly solid argument given most of TBFree's pest control/management budget goes on things other than aerial 1080, and that the reduction in TB has a benefit to productivity and profit for both beef and dairy industries. It might be worth working out the cost of the TB slaughter levy per kg of meat or per kg of Milk Solids.

I know the Forum sounds like its the world's leading authority on bTB management sometimes, but it does pay to take what we read on here with a grain of salt  Smiley



Yes I have noticed that forum is full of "experts" on just about enything...  Grin

And with the levies I think that it is marginal, buts its still there...Anyway tjats not the point of this thred so lets just cut it out from here on...  Cool


The key thing is the relatively minor amount of the levy will be offset by the benefits of bTB reduction, the means are a separate issue. So suggesting an influence on milk/meat prices isn't that robust. TBFree reduced their budget by 25% ($20mill per year) recently due to progress in bTB control. Did we see any drop in prices?  Smiley
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #155 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 6:25am
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m robbo wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 5:26am:
I wonder what happened to the profit of said 200 odd deer shot off a state owned enterprise? Could have been used to pay for more repellant or is that a physical oxymoron??


How much would that profit actually be?
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #156 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:39am
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headcase wrote on Dec 3rd, 2017 at 6:44pm:
Marty, You do your credability a disservice by suggesting that its ok to threaten to indroduce the very poisen that so disgusts you into the food chain.

Do two wrongs make a right?



I didn't say it was OK. I'm saying it is understandable that some people would behave this way and they wouldn't behave like this if DOC and OSPRI started to behave in a reasonable manner.

I took a vocal anti-1080 campaigner to task when he started promoting an idea that would have caused problems for some farmers simply because farmers are seen the beneficiaries of 1080.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #157 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:50am
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Understandable ? No its unacceptable.

His threat had international repercussions that cost companies in this country quite a lot of money, companies that have nothing to do with poisoning ops, quite apart from the threats and fear mongering.

Don't let your emotions influence your moral compass.  Smiley
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #158 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:59am
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headcase wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:50am:
Understandable ? No its unacceptable.

His threat had international repercussions that cost companies in this country quite a lot of money, companies that have nothing to do with poisoning ops, quite apart from the threats and fear mongering.

Don't let your emotions influence your moral compass.  Smiley


I agree it is unacceptable, however, it is understandable as is some other emotion driven comments being said as a result of the use of 1080.

I believe it is unacceptable that DOC and OSPRI is not telling the truth about the effectiveness of aerial 1080 to kill the targeted species of animals.

Whenever people with power over other people do unacceptable things that hurt other people there will always be a backlash that will include other unacceptable actions. This is the way human societies have always operated. The longer the first unacceptable behaviour goes on for the more extreme the countering unacceptable behaviour will be.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #159 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 9:52am
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m robbo I'd like to know where you got your number of 200 shot from, and as Cantyguy said let's wait for the results regarding deer kill/survival. Don't like to be the bearer of bad news Cantyguy but the bigger body weights of the stags hasn't saved them, more like their greed while growing velvet hasn't helped. The pellets were very intact and fresh looking almost a month later but the damage had been done a few hours after the application I would say.

Marty Foote, a question for you. If there were lets say for arguments sake 1000 possums there pre drop how many would be there in 2 years time when the next drop in the same area is due to happen? Off the top of my head OSPRI claim a 98% kill? Is that a fair question or is there too many variables.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #160 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 10:07am
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Marty Foote wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:59am:
headcase wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:50am:
Understandable ? No its unacceptable.

His threat had international repercussions that cost companies in this country quite a lot of money, companies that have nothing to do with poisoning ops, quite apart from the threats and fear mongering.

Don't let your emotions influence your moral compass.  Smiley


I agree it is unacceptable, however, it is understandable as is some other emotion driven comments being said as a result of the use of 1080.

I believe it is unacceptable that DOC and OSPRI is not telling the truth about the effectiveness of aerial 1080 to kill the targeted species of animals.

Whenever people with power over other people do unacceptable things that hurt other people there will always be a backlash that will include other unacceptable actions. This is the way human societies have always operated. The longer the first unacceptable behaviour goes on for the more extreme the countering unacceptable behaviour will be.


I can understand that some might think like this, given that one out of every sixteen New Zealanders will or have suffered from a mental illness during their lifetime. But I can't think of any other rational reason.

Outside of that such stupid behaviour can only be attempted to be justified by equally stupid excuses.
  

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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #161 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 10:15am
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puddleduk wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 9:52am:
m robbo I'd like to know where you got your number of 200 shot from, and as Cantyguy said let's wait for the results regarding deer kill/survival. Don't like to be the bearer of bad news Cantyguy but the bigger body weights of the stags hasn't saved them, more like their greed while growing velvet hasn't helped. The pellets were very intact and fresh looking almost a month later but the damage had been done a few hours after the application I would say.

Marty Foote, a question for you. If there were lets say for arguments sake 1000 possums there pre drop how many would be there in 2 years time when the next drop in the same area is due to happen? Off the top of my head OSPRI claim a 98% kill? Is that a fair question or is there too many variables.


DOC, OSPRI and F&B paid for an advert in all the FairFax media outlets which claimed aerial 1080 was averaging a 98% kill of possums. I asked DOC to justify this claim. The reply came back that DOC does not hold any evidence that 1080 kills 98% of the possum population.

The absolute numbers of possums is not important. This is why the Trap-Catch monitoring method was developed. So long as the same method is used, all the time, then a measure of the population density can be relied upon to give an index for whatever the value you want to control possums for e.g. OSPRI has set <2%RTC as the TB measure and DOC goes as high as <10%RTC for some plant protection areas.

I use a natural population doubling of 3-4 years. This is how we know that the aerial 1080 results has not been accurately reporting the post aerial 1080 possum population densities with huge increases in the difference between a post and the next pre results that could not be attributed to natural population increases.
  
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Re: Molesworth 1080
Reply #162 - Dec 4th, 2017 at 10:34am
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BC wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 10:07am:
Marty Foote wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:59am:
headcase wrote on Dec 4th, 2017 at 8:50am:
Understandable ? No its unacceptable.

His threat had international repercussions that cost companies in this country quite a lot of money, companies that have nothing to do with poisoning ops, quite apart from the threats and fear mongering.

Don't let your emotions influence your moral compass.  Smiley


I agree it is unacceptable, however, it is understandable as is some other emotion driven comments being said as a result of the use of 1080.

I believe it is unacceptable that DOC and OSPRI is not telling the truth about the effectiveness of aerial 1080 to kill the targeted species of animals.

Whenever people with power over other people do unacceptable things that hurt other people there will always be a backlash that will include other unacceptable actions. This is the way human societies have always operated. The longer the first unacceptable behaviour goes on for the more extreme the countering unacceptable behaviour will be.


I can understand that some might think like this, given that one out of every sixteen New Zealanders will or have suffered from a mental illness during their lifetime. But I can't think of any other rational reason.

Outside of that such stupid behaviour can only be attempted to be justified by equally stupid excuses.


Surely in this post-modern world, if you believe something to be true then it is, BC?  Grin
  

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