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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) Fiordland Wapiti (Read 4654 times)
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #18 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 11:16am
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puddleduk wrote on Apr 19th, 2017 at 10:40pm:
Tag system, 1 bull/ hunter, and a stand down period if tag is used(5years?)
Huntsouth-Fishnorth, I've been in a party in there that two of the members would have shot anything but didn't because they were crap hunters. Will be a bit smarter choosing party members in the future.We were a bit surprised too at the briefings that the age topic was only touched on briefly.


Tag systems would tend to encourage people to leave heads in the bush each time they saw something better the American system works because you must bring out the whole animal so any dead animals can be analysed and attributed to a certain time frame and hunting party.
Why have a stand down period when most of the time its the 1st time hunter that are making the errors most guy that go in there year after year have a good idea as to what there looking at.
Maybe the FWF need to change the ballot system to make parties included some experience clause or team them up with experienced wapiti hunters
I know this is going to go against the grain for a lot of hunter but if we keep getting results like this every year we wont get those big trophy we are all looking for.
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #19 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 12:47pm
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The TAG system works in the USA as it also has a legal size or age and it is enforced. Age for sheep,  number of points for most deer including elk depending on location. So do you issue a TAG for an animal of a certain number of points 5 x 5 min or 6 x 6 min. You could also get a red type tag to engage hunters in the control of animal numbers. Keeping in mind these are no longer Wapiti/ELK these are Fiordland deer.

"Tag systems would tend to encourage people to leave heads in the bush each time they saw something better"
Disagree a little -the people that would do this under a TAG system are the same people doing it now but at the moment it is legal to take multiple animals.
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #20 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 1:00pm
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I agree a tag system would work in the Wap blocks. Each year issue a certain number of tags to manage for high percentage bulls/cows ratios, ie more bulls having time to mature, and a 12 point antler restriction. Hunter must record their kills to keep most honest.

The waiting period is a good idea also, once a kill is recorded the hunter has X number of years out of the draw.

Be plenty of ways to skin the cat and make a few improvements.
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #21 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 1:21pm
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Some old wapiti types are genetically unable to grow a 12 point head, so the big old tens etc would be off limits letting them breed.
Another thing that does not sit right with me is FWF shooting of yearlings for DNA samples, shooting an up and coming spiker even before they have grown spikes won't do anything for bull numbers in the future. I'm pretty sure the above was on advice from Landcare Research, flawed in my opinion.
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #22 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 1:38pm
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T3Welly wrote on Apr 19th, 2017 at 9:09am:
"party of 2 in prime Wap country shooting 5 bulls"

Surely this did not actually happen?

Rumour has it they are Te Anau locals too. I could say more but I won't, it's all over Facebook anyway. Something like an 8 pointer, a 9, 10, 11, 12 or similar.

It's the talk of the hunting nation when two people misbehave in the Wap blocks. You'd need to be either brave, stupid, or both to misbehave in the Wap blocks these days.

  

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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #23 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 1:54pm
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Hi my name is caleb and im 15 years old. I have done 4 wapiti blocks so far. Light river, lower glaisnock, wild natives and the narrows. I have seen proberly 2-3 bulls that would have been over 45 inches and have left them, and it pisses me of when i see clips like the lugar burn one where they just go in and shoot so many young and promising animals!!😡😡
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #24 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 2:00pm
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Caleb, keep on hunting in there like that you will be rewarded.
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #25 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 6:16pm
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I think a system put in place that only allows bulls 6x6, 12 pts or more would be the go, I know the odd 12 pt (to young) bull would get shoot still by some retards, but it wouldn't be any worse than it is now.

I know someone who had one of the best blocks 2nd period, caught up with him just the other and asked him how he got on..? His words and I quote "yeah i shot one, not massive but yeah..."
-there was a head that i found in our block that someone had just shot and left that i carried out to save it rotting.. it was sitting in my car that he looked at it and said... "wouldn't have been much better than that"  (11pts 35' long)
I managed to keep my thoughts to myself and my mouth shut "just" but man it pisses me off. Why would you shoot something that you know isn't big enough, that you talk it down as soon as someone ask you about it. Undecided
anyway ha
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #26 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 7:06pm
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I was at Gavin Burgess's hangar on a busy day at the beginning of April having just done my roar trip and these guys were ready to fly in to Fiordland after reds. This group of guys started talking about wapiti amongst themselves, and their management etc and they started complaining about the management of the herd eg the culling regime.

Someone else who happened to be wandering by said to them "you know what the fwf does, is all for the hunter right? These guys have weighed up the pros and cons of everything , and the whole point is to get trophies to grow and for people to go in to the blocks and go shooting young bulls doesn't make that happen."

One of the group turned round and said "Yeah? Well if I pay the money I'm shooting whatever I f*****n well like mate! As long as it's a bull"

I couldn't listen anymore.
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #27 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 7:23pm
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That's the problem with so many kiwi hunters don't care what hard work and effort has gone into something, they think its just for them. The same happens up here in Sika country with a huge over kill of juvenile Sika Stags, with many believing leave the hinds for breeding.  To many hinds is not a good thing in Sika country. Studies on both Kaimanawa and Kaweka herds showed this. Too many hinds represent poor quality animals and and environment that can't support them. Poor condition hinds don't cycle so there's no fawns.  Hence the saying Let Him grow shoot the Doe (hind).
  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #28 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 7:25pm
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Implementing something more rigorous than already exists in regards to smaller and younger Fiordland deer heads being shot might be problematic.

It seem that the only powers that the FWF have arise from provisions in Doc's Fiordland National Park plan - which I haven't read - but expect that it doesn't give the FWF any statutory powers. So they have to rely on educating and persuading hunters, and the FWF can't sanction miscreants.

The Game Animal Council could recommend to the Minister that the Fiordland deer become a herd of special significance and that could lead to a statutory framework that could be enforced - and maybe fees - but there are problems with this too. The main one I see is that should this protection be bestowed on a herd that is not easily accessed by the majority of hunters, is ballotted, and really only hunted during the roar by the willing (or the some might say the privileged, who can afford the time and expense).

There is an argument that the herds of special significance should firstly be those that most people can hunt - like the Sika - i.e. levy money being spent for the benefit of all.

The same argument could be used to preclude the Glenorchy Whitetail from becoming a HOS.

Just some thoughts that we probably need to get our heads around.

What do others think?
  

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.......
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #29 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 7:57pm
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I think you've got it completely around the wrong way.  Smiley HOSIs are most likely to be funded user-pays, as the FWF effectively acts. Not a general levy on recreational hunters.

The more easily/widely available/widespread a species/herd/area, the less the reason for it to be a HOSI, I think. Should be reserved for special cases.
  

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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #30 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 8:04pm
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Oscar wrote on Apr 20th, 2017 at 7:57pm:
I think you've got it completely around the wrong way.  Smiley HOSIs are most likely to be funded user-pays, as the FWF effectively acts. Not a general levy on recreational hunters.

The more easily/widely available/widespread a species/herd/area, the less the reason for it to be a HOSI, I think. Should be reserved for special cases.


Yeah, thats valid. This thread has prompted me to start thinking about the issue, and I'm sure that there are many valid perspectives. I think that "User pays" though is not the only funding mechanism available to the GAC so a general or broader benefit might be expected from the funder.
I thought "completely around the wrong way" was a bit harsh Smiley
  

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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #31 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 12:38pm
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[/color]One of the group turned round and said "Yeah? Well if I pay the money I'm shooting whatever I f*****n well like mate! As long as it's a bull"[color=#000000]

Mr stretch heard this comment above. and didn't like it, same with me.
Have listened to similar comments over the years, tails of yeah we shot 5 - 6 - 7 stags this year, roared them in. This is from the wap blocks, I've always taken a dim view of those hunters. Tipping over everything with antlers.  Sounds good over a few beers, gun hunters, the man.

NZ hunting fraternity still has that culture alive and well, that's the way we are like it or not. The more the merrier.

Rules are hard to enforce, education the way to go, in saying that some people will never learn. And just because hunter a leaves a bull or a stag because its not big enough hunter b might class it as a trophy so it is a very subjective topic.

An earlier thread on what I will call the "duley" head, that was shot last year, seems a number of people let that animal go to grow out for another year, and good on you fellas for that. I bet there would be a majority of hunters out there that would shoot it if they spied it, it looked big and trophy of a life time (me included most likely, because it's bigger than anything else I have seen) issue with that story were the circumstances.

PAL has opened debate and rightly put it out there.
It wasn't that long ago some of those heads in that you tube clip would be have been trophies and heads with DS scores in the 280's were winning NZDA comps. Times and head quality has changed for the better. It was quite a good clip and hopefully those guys now will expect to shoot something bigger and leave the younger bulls.


  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #32 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 3:35pm
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The "I'll shoot anything" idea is something that's probably a result of game going from being managed and valued to become ng a pest. most of us go thru the stage of shoot as many as possible. (or used to)

But now theres a different attitude developing IMO, that deer etc can be managed and that doing this, is resulting in better quality animals.
FWF have led the way.
but also the big reductions of deer and Tahr have led to better feed and now better heads. Not exactly Game management, but has had positive spin offs.

Theres a chance to capitilize on where we're at now, and improve the quality of hunting, IMO

There will always be the "I'll do what I like" attitude among some hunters. Maybe it will decease over time.
The raising of these issues, like the wapiti age stuff, helps spread the message.

Ditto with the NZ Hunter show about the Pitt river head, or wherever it was
Even if theres not agreement.

But a similar issue exists with red deer. IMO.

Guess NZ is going thru a transition, even including the government/DOC etc, but it will take time to happen.

But the one place attitudes should change, asap, is in the wapiti area.


Its interesting, hunting activity increases dramatically over the roar period, according to DOC permit issues stats.suggesting "trophy" hunters are very much in the majority.




  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #33 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 5:43pm
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interesting thread guys,   bloody shame theres blokes talkin the talk but cant walk for shit............................

downside to the Hunter Draw out for shooting, is there would no doubt be animals shot an left an no one would really know....

i suppose the Chopper crews have a fair idea of what comes out of there?  or does every head through the FWF get 'registered' so to speak?

that video on first page is cool but yeah,  I think once a mate shoots one, Everyones gotta shoot one.

  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #34 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 6:08pm
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I'll have to agree with TH - and I believe it'll take another generation or two to knock it out of us.

I've never been a trophy hunter, only ever brought two sets of antlers out of the bush, but I did know people who were - and I fully understood and admired the effort they put into securing a good head.
And I knew a good one when I saw it.

I've never been to Fiordland, had my opportunities - just never got there. To me it is the last true remaining wilderness area and people need to adjust to the fact that the good/bad old days are gone and attitudes needs to change.

I think hunters themselves will have the most effect with attitudes. As a meat hunter I was well aware of the disapproval of others and changed areas frequently when I felt threatened - and there were times when I was.
That had an effect on me and there were many times I denied being what I was - embarrassed, ashamed, scared of a thumping, I don't know - probably all of them.

At the same time I'm very aware that an animal doesn't require any head gear at all to be considered a trophy, it's all in the hunt - and that is all you remember at the end of the day.

And I'll add here - some of those memories are of animals I never got.


  
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Re: Fiordland Wapiti
Reply #35 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 10:47pm
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Its great to see this thread develop, a couple of points I'd like to pick up on is that most of the contributor are sadden by the actions of a few.
If we keep voicing our displeasure and advocating for change in attitude towards trophy herds more and more will start listen. Take note of the people that are not replying to this thread you can guarantee they are watching.
With the GAC to  me its a organization that requires a lot of pressure from the recreation hunter, we have the most numbers on the ground with the smallest representation on the board it requires our voice to be heard to make a difference.
Fiordland management plan is up for renewal this year and the FWF needs our support by voicing our opinion and making as much noise as possible to say that we support a trophy herd of wapiti in Fiordland not just any older deer we are going to bomb up on at first site.
Don't worry DOC are watching threads like this as well.
  
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