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Poll closed Question: As a licenced firearms owner have you had a firearm stolen in a burglary in the last 3 years
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YES    
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NO    
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Total votes: 1080
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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Anti Gun Police at it on news today! (Read 10356 times)
Richard Prosser
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #60 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 12:59pm
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Hot off the press:


Richard Prosser MP NZ
Spokesperson for Outdoor Recreation
20 APRIL 2017      

POLICE SECRETARY OUT OF LINE OVER HUNTING RIFLE COMMENTS

Police Association president Chris Cahill should stick to police union-related matters, and not interfere in the choice of legal firearms law-abiding licence holders use in the safe enjoyment of their sport, says New Zealand First Outdoor Recreation Spokesperson Richard Prosser

“Mr Cahill was on Radio NZ this morning repeating his questioning of the ‘need’ for-semi automatic hunting rifles and shotguns by hunters and duck shooters.

“He claims firearms which resemble military weapons and other semi-automatics pose a danger to the public.

The fact is police were unable to provide the recent Law and Order Select Committee inquiry into illegal possession of firearms with any figures to back up this claim – and that’s because they don’t pose any such danger.

“Sawn-off shotguns and cut-down .22s are the weapons of choice for criminals, not MSSAs that don’t even appear in the crime stats.

“Mr Cahill’s desire to further restrict and penalise law-abiding hunters and shooters will have no effect whatsoever on the criminals who are the problem.

“Frankly it’s none of his business what type of legal firearm people choose to use; he needs to focus on catching criminals and keep his nose out of law-abiding people’s business,” says Mr Prosser.

ENDS


Contact: Richard Prosser 0212431199

Authorised by Richard Prosser, Parliament Buildings, Wellington

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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #61 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 10:19pm
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Playing the man Richard.  Demonstrate to the people he represents that he is incorrect and misguided and that will destroy the pedestal on which he stands.  He clearly should not hold the position he has but its up to the Police rank and file to deal with that.  Detail the facts that destroy his statements, job done.

Did you notice the media do not want to present this to the world..... lies make better news Sad
  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #62 - Apr 20th, 2017 at 11:01pm
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Shooters won't get much help from the media.....many of whom will no doubt be sympathetic to his views.
  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #63 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 8:21am
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[quote author=77736071756E73010 link=1491589721/47#47 date=1492337978]


'So a couple of questions for you dave, are you a firearms owner? and which camp are you in? the law abiding LICENSED firearms owners can have what they want. or the you can have what we say you can have and only do what you we tell you with them?'
I think this is a false distinction. The issue is about who decides who gets a FAL for what and under what conditions.

I don't know why it is relevant  -  but I owned a P14 for fifteen years, then a Norinco .22 for ten, but when I moved to rental accommodation and storage regs were tightened and the new FAL regs were introduced, it all got too hard and I sold the Norincoand didn't renew my FAL. I now have an airifle for rabbits and possums that stray onto our place. I was (briefly) a member of the pistol club that used the range in the basement of the old Army barracks in Buckle St Wellington, before I realised that at least some of the members were "gun crazy".

I am solidly in the camp that believes the state has a right to limit and control the possession and use of firearms. The important questions (for me) are why and how.

Why is simple  - to keep them out of the hands of people who might do  bad things with them. (I would include shooting at burglars)

The how is more difficult.
  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #64 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 8:23am
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[quote author=77736071756E73010 link=1491589721/47#47 date=1492337978]


'So a couple of questions for you dave, are you a firearms owner? and which camp are you in? the law abiding LICENSED firearms owners can have what they want. or the you can have what we say you can have and only do what you we tell you with them?'

I think this is a false distinction. The issue is about who decides who gets a FAL for what and under what conditions.

I don't know why it is relevant  -  but I owned a P14 for fifteen years, then a Norinco .22 for ten, but when I moved to rental accommodation and storage regs were tightened and the new FAL regs were introduced, it all got too hard and I sold the Norincoand didn't renew my FAL. I now have an airifle for rabbits and possums that stray onto our place. I was (briefly) a member of the pistol club that used the range in the basement of the old Army barracks in Buckle St Wellington, before I realised that at least some of the members were "gun crazy".

I am solidly in the camp that believes the state has a right to limit and control the possession and use of firearms. The important questions (for me) are why and how.

Why is simple  - to keep them out of the hands of people who might do  bad things with them. (I would include shooting at burglars)

The how is more difficult.
  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #65 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 11:20am
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davflaws wrote on Apr 21st, 2017 at 8:23am:
I am solidly in the camp that believes the state has a right to limit and control the possession and use of firearms. The important questions (for me) are why and how.

Why is simple  - to keep them out of the hands of people who might do  bad things with them. (I would include shooting at burglars)

The how is more difficult.


The other 'why' must be to ensure people who wont do bad things with them [i]can[/i] get their hands on them.

In terms of the 'how', the evidence suggests the current system is doing that. Is there good evidence to the contrary?
  

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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #66 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 5:23pm
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Fed Farmers are opposed to the proposals too: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11842521

Quote:
Federated Farmers national board member Katie Milne said the lobby group strongly opposed the recommendation that semiautomatic firearms be further regulated, and that permits be required to lend firearms to other gun licence holders.
  

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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #67 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 7:19pm
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You're right HiTop, and I very much prefer to play the ball; believe it or not I generally avoid playing the man if at all possible. I do find it rather distasteful. But this chap has made it about him and his personal preferences, and unless and until he makes it clear that he is speaking for and on behalf of his union and its members, and I doubt that such is the case and I certainly hope not, then personal it will remain.
  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #68 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 9:34pm
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Richard Prosser wrote on Apr 21st, 2017 at 7:19pm:
You're right HiTop, and I very much prefer to play the ball; believe it or not I generally avoid playing the man if at all possible. I do find it rather distasteful. But this chap has made it about him and his personal preferences, and unless and until he makes it clear that he is speaking for and on behalf of his union and its members, and I doubt that such is the case and I certainly hope not, then personal it will remain.


quote
Radar, I am going to be blunt. The law does not need tightening. It simply needs enforcing.

You don't take it kindly? You're not supposed to. You're supposed to take it as an advisory. The law-abiding licenced firearms using community have had a gutsful of being made the scapegoat because of Government and Police incompetence.

If you have a gripe about your ability to do your job properly, then tell your Commissioner to tell the Minister to tell the Cabinet that you need more resources, more money, and more boots on the ground. You already have our support for that.

But don't go repeating the same provably erroneous bullshit that your new Association President appears to have become fond of disseminating.

In the Select Committee we asked for documentary proof supporting claims about the number of firearms that were stolen from FAL holders, the number that ended up in criminal hands, even the number of times that Officers were faced with firearms in the course of their duties. There are no such figures, because Police do not collect or keep them, and the claims that were made, by the Police, and by the Police Association, to Parliament's Select Committee, were on that count pure fiction.

People are not stupid. They know when they're being lied to.

Look at your own burglary investigation rate, look at your burglary clearance rate, look at the gaping holes in both records and procedure where Police oversight of firearms ownership is concerned.

And don't be so bloody arrogant. unquote


hmmmmm Roll Eyes the above statement you made earlier would tend to show otherwise.

  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #69 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 9:42pm
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Richard Prosser wrote on Apr 21st, 2017 at 7:19pm:
You're right HiTop, and I very much prefer to play the ball; believe it or not I generally avoid playing the man if at all possible. I do find it rather distasteful. But this chap has made it about him and his personal preferences, and unless and until he makes it clear that he is speaking for and on behalf of his union and its members, and I doubt that such is the case and I certainly hope not, then personal it will remain.

I understand your approach but honestly, kicking the chair out from under him, in other words getting Police officers to question his suitability for the role, will achieve both objectives without appearing to call him out personally.  Leave that to the Police themselves and if they don't act then I think that indicates a problem far more deeply seated than what is being seen here Sad  I applaud your interest though Wink
  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #70 - Apr 21st, 2017 at 9:52pm
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Micky Duck wrote on Apr 21st, 2017 at 9:34pm:
Richard Prosser wrote on Apr 21st, 2017 at 7:19pm:
You're right HiTop, and I very much prefer to play the ball; believe it or not I generally avoid playing the man if at all possible. I do find it rather distasteful. But this chap has made it about him and his personal preferences, and unless and until he makes it clear that he is speaking for and on behalf of his union and its members, and I doubt that such is the case and I certainly hope not, then personal it will remain.


quote
Radar, I am going to be blunt. The law does not need tightening. It simply needs enforcing.

You don't take it kindly? You're not supposed to. You're supposed to take it as an advisory. The law-abiding licenced firearms using community have had a gutsful of being made the scapegoat because of Government and Police incompetence.

If you have a gripe about your ability to do your job properly, then tell your Commissioner to tell the Minister to tell the Cabinet that you need more resources, more money, and more boots on the ground. You already have our support for that.

But don't go repeating the same provably erroneous bullshit that your new Association President appears to have become fond of disseminating.

In the Select Committee we asked for documentary proof supporting claims about the number of firearms that were stolen from FAL holders, the number that ended up in criminal hands, even the number of times that Officers were faced with firearms in the course of their duties. There are no such figures, because Police do not collect or keep them, and the claims that were made, by the Police, and by the Police Association, to Parliament's Select Committee, were on that count pure fiction.

People are not stupid. They know when they're being lied to.

Look at your own burglary investigation rate, look at your burglary clearance rate, look at the gaping holes in both records and procedure where Police oversight of firearms ownership is concerned.

And don't be so bloody arrogant. unquote


hmmmmm Roll Eyes the above statement you made earlier would tend to show otherwise.



Oh, for God's sake, Micky Duck, don't be so precious. I don't know who you are and I don't know who Radar is. But when I see someone who identifies themselves by saying words to the effect of "I'm a Police Officer and I don't take kindly...." etc, then my 'Up Yours' gland gets tickled.

It's in the same vein as Aaron Gilmore saying "Don't you know who I am", and we all know what happened to him.

Police are a civilian organisation in New Zealand, and Police don't make the rules. We all have to sit down to shit. No-one is better than everyone else, and no-one has the right to insinuate that they have some greater degree of clout or expectation of respect because of the job they do. That applies to Police as much as it does to politicians like me.

That's what that was about. Make it personal, and that's how I will respond.

  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #71 - Apr 22nd, 2017 at 7:44am
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People I do believe we're all on the same page here (no pun intended). We are all Licensed Firearms Owners/Users so we should all be directing our attention to the biggest threat to our sports/pastimes in recent history. Namely Mr Chris Cahill. He set the trend with his rhetoric (read Lies) in the mainstream media so as far as we're concerned he is our No1 focal point. We have to really discredit him as he is not going to go away. Challenge everything he say's in the same medium he uses. If he lies then use the official complaints mechanism and just keep at him/mainstream media. We have to stick/work together on this regardless of your shooting discipline. I wish us all LUCK.
  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #72 - Apr 22nd, 2017 at 10:57am
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Sent: Friday, 21 April 2017 9:06 p.m.
To: 'chris.cahill@policeassn.org.nz' <chris.cahill@policeassn.org.nz>
Subject: semi-automatic firearms comments

Mr Cahill,
You have certainly caused quite a stir amongst the 250,000 licensed firearms owners in the country and I am concerned with what can only be described as an agenda. You have risen through the ranks of police to Detective Inspector, you are not a stupid person.  Firstly, you mislead NZ about the purchasing of ammunition in NZ. You stated that a firearms license is not required to purchase ammunition in this country. https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/2017/04/10/another-day-another-lie-from-the-po
lice-union/

More recently you again misled the country in regards to semi-automatic firearms in the country. Mr Cahill, semi-automatic firearms are NOT easily converted to fully automatic. If they were, then they would be all over the place in criminal hands. But you already knew that didn’t you?  Apart from that, when a sample of a new semi auto firearm is assessed by PNHQ for approval, they check to make sure that it can't be readily converted to full auto. If it can, it won't be approved by the armorer.

If you actually believe that semis really are "easy to turn into full automatics" then you must also believe that PNHQ, specifically the armorer, are incompetent and are failing to do their own jobs. You either deliberately mislead NZ, or believe that police staff are incompetent. But given your history of passing off anecdotes as hard fact (sitting with hunters by the campfire, really? Get a grip), and just plucking numbers to suit your agenda lying is the most likely scenario.

I note that on the NZ police association web site mission/vison/values page https://www.policeassn.org.nz/about-us/mission-/-objectives-/-vision it states: In the pursuit of our mission the Association will:
•      Act with honesty and integrity
Your actions are not consistent with honest and integrity Mr Cahill. I am amazed that the police association is willing to accept the level of honesty and integrity from its president that you have demonstrated. To the point that if one of my soldiers had carried out similar behaviour, I would have charged them with bringing the service into disrepute.

As such, complaints have been laid to the NZ broadcasting standards authority, Radio New Zealand, the IPCA,  the NZ Police association, and several MP’s. By many of us, the law abiding firearms license holders. The responsible people of society, deemed fit and proper to own firearms. You are persecuting the wrong people Mr Cahill, you should be focussing on actions that have an impact on the criminal elements of New Zealand, Not the law Abiding.
  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #73 - Apr 22nd, 2017 at 12:18pm
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Its good to see how many LFAO's are on the same page and are countering the mis-information that is being fed to us by the Police association.

Its now perfectly clear that they want to target our 1022's and beretta duck guns.

Don't give them an inch guys.

  
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Re: Anti Gun Police at it on news today!
Reply #74 - Apr 22nd, 2017 at 7:10pm
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Richard.....your up yours gland worked overtime and your check your facts before engaging mouth or in this case keyboard warning system let you down.....
you targeted "the man" with your comments didn't play "the ball" at all.
Radar has stuck his neck out to sort shot out for members of this forum..he is a bloody nice guy and didn't deserve a broadside from anyone for stating things as he sees them,you are a career politician heading into an election,yet you seem to think its ok to go online and get all puffed up and chuck your weight around and not get called out on it?????
as I stated before ,NZ First has had my vote for many years but your actions have made plurry sure it wont be happening again.
  
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