Fishnhunt New Zealands main hunting and Fishing Forum. millions of posts on fishing and hunting, dogs, 4x4 vehicles, outdoors and much more Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1]  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) Black powder and the cheap ass (Read 17602 times)
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Black powder and the cheap ass
Sep 21st, 2016 at 10:12pm
Print Post  
I have been mucking around with Black Powder rifles for over 20yrs now and will admit being a bit frustrated in the beginning with a Flintlock that would only go off when it felt like it. Experiance and getting to know the rifle makes a big differance, tuneing the flint and little things like tapping the side of the lock to make sure the powder is close to the flash hole or nipple are things learned. Every smokepole likes a slightly different load or patch combination.
To the cheap ass bit, I have found making my own cast balls , Powder , patches, even flints all part of the Muzzleloader experiance. The powder took a bit of experimentation to get it right but now thats sorted and at $1.80 a Kilo its well worth the hour in a well ventilated and non expensive shed. Still have all my fingers to. Flints , chips of Argelite will work but you don`t get many shots. Re sharpening a $2 flint from Track of the wolf or such will last for ages.  Percussion caps , I see Gunworks in Canteurbury has them for $40 a tin of 100. I just go to the dollar shop and buy plastic caps for capguns at $1 for 78 and they work every time , being soft plastic they hold onto the nipple just fine and seal it... the girl at he counter does look at you when you buy $30 worth.
Have never bothered working it out but shooting my Blackpowder rifles is probably about 2-4 cents a shot and very satisfing when you knock over a deer or goat with ammo you can say you hand rolled yourself.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gonebush
Donor Member
*****
Offline


7mm REM MAG forever

Posts: 560
Location: Onewhero
Joined: Jan 21st, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #1 - Sep 23rd, 2016 at 3:47am
Print Post  
What is your recipe for BP? Capgun caps got to try that one Grin
  

There are Hunters and fishermen and the rest of you SAD Bastards!!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #2 - Sep 23rd, 2016 at 10:04am
Print Post  
capgun caps.......you are a man after my own cheap arsed heart.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
seventenths
Forum Font
*****
Offline



Posts: 3397
Location: Dunedin Area
Joined: Nov 11th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #3 - Sep 23rd, 2016 at 10:33pm
Print Post  
Kiwi ingenuity at its finest!  Cool
  

“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors. We borrow it from our children."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #4 - Sep 24th, 2016 at 2:12am
Print Post  
The Recipe: Pretty simple really and there are some good vids on youtube for homemade black powder.

1, Stale uren,  yes!! piss in a bottle and leave it in the shed for a few weeks.
2, Charcole : made from Crack willow from the river banks. Use branches 4-6 inch thick so its still fairly young. Cut green then strip the bark and leave to dry, I will cut lengths of willow from the same tree. Cut to kindling thickness and cook in a old coffee tin or similar in the fireplace with the lid on and a nail hole in the top to let the gas out. You can light the gas and when it stops burning the charcole is done. Pulverise to a fine dust.
3 Salt peter / Potassium Nitrate : From a farm fertiliser distrubuter about $56 25kg
4, Sulpher : same supplier $12  2kg

750gm Potassium Nitrate
150gm Charcole
100gm  Sulpher

Salt peter in a pot and cover with Stale uren, Bring to boil and salt peter will disolve. Stir in slowly the other 2 ingrediants powdered and mixed together, stir for about 10 minutes. It wants to be a good poridge mix.
Take it off the heat and let it cool a while.It will solidify. Once its cool enough to handle by hand force it through a kitchen cive with course wire and leave it in a thin layer to dry in the sun.
Until it is dry it probably won`t burn well or at all but once its dry its good to go. Put it in a sealed container away from the kids.
As a precaution do not use steel utensils in the making of this powder.
As this powder is not compressed like the bought stuff you will use about twice as much as a thrown unit. IE: if you use 100gr thrown of 2f in a 50cal, you will probably throw 150 - 200gr by volume not weight of homemade powder.
Bought powder is compressed to about 40 ton and made into pucks that are then broken to get the F grain size. This homemade powder is just corned so is lighter and larger by volume to weight.
With my old eyes on a good day I can shoot 3-4 inch groups at 100mts with a open sighted flintlock and this powder. If you are having a slight delay between the flashpan and the main charge, drop about 3 grains of FFFF down the barrel first. For caplocks just the homebrew and a capgun cap will do the job.
Of coarse the above was just theoretic and above all be safe and use common sense, for christ sake dont smoke while your doing this.
There are no legal issues in making your own black powder in small amounts as long as it is only being used for a lawful purpose such as being used in a muzzleloader by a licenced firearm owner.
« Last Edit: Sep 24th, 2016 at 9:54pm by Tasbay »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Radar
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Armed Tramper 😈

Posts: 1692
Location: Cambridge
Joined: Aug 3rd, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #5 - Sep 24th, 2016 at 6:46pm
Print Post  
Its a good recipe but mate you gotta learn about spell check Cheesy
Your England is bad. Grin

Ive seen that recipe before and its pretty good.
  

Fate whispers to the warrior
'you cannot withstand the storm',
And the warrior whispers back
' I am the storm'
Toys
Tikka the T3 Hunter 7mm08
Baikal .223 Spartan
Martin Falcon 65lb Compound bow
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Maddoghunter
Donor Member
*****
Online


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1819
Location: Franklin
Joined: Apr 28th, 2013
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #6 - Sep 24th, 2016 at 9:05pm
Print Post  
This is the most hilarious topic I've read in ages  Grin
I can't believe you boil your piss!   Grin Grin
Next time I'm near the black powder range I'm gonna stay well upwind.
Has anyone told Alan that there's a bomb making class going on on his website?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
jakkos
Forum Senior
****
Offline


There is one stop after
the trigger is pulled

Posts: 583
Location: Waikato
Joined: Sep 27th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #7 - Sep 24th, 2016 at 9:24pm
Print Post  
I was sent that same recipe by another forum member. It does work, and very cost effective. I am not sure if you drink lots of whiskey rather than water would it have any effect on the volatility of the finished product. Best to drink water and do it safely. Wink
  

be good...And careful
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #8 - Sep 24th, 2016 at 9:34pm
Print Post  
Yep Black powder is pretty nasty stuff. Potassium Nitrate is normally made from hay , horse shit and urien (human or animal). In the old days they used to go around the long drop toilets collecting human waste and fermenting it to make gun powder. Nothing much has changed so you have no idea whats in the tin of Black Powder you are useing .
« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2016 at 4:32pm by Tasbay »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #9 - Sep 24th, 2016 at 10:14pm
Print Post  
Maddoghunter wrote on Sep 24th, 2016 at 9:05pm:
This is the most hilarious topic I've read in ages  Grin
I can't believe you boil your piss!   Grin Grin
Next time I'm near the black powder range I'm gonna stay well upwind.
Has anyone told Alan that there's a bomb making class going on on his website?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


I Don`t see what your problem is You eat it don`t you??

Potassium Nitrate used in Black powder made from Horse shit , hay and piss is the exact same stuff used in Cureing your Bacon , Ham , Salami and small goods. One of the local butchers told me they get the same stuff from the same supplier that I use to make my Black Powder. You may want to look at a diet change... Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #10 - Oct 5th, 2016 at 1:07pm
Print Post  
Very entertaining post 'Tasbay' - and educational.
And to answer 'Jakkos', I recall reading many years ago that back in the day, the French preferred urine from a wine drinker for their powder manufacture - it was said to make a difference, but whether red or white - I never discovered.
I've heard of people using the cap gun caps, but have never tried it - and now - I believe I will.
As a word of caution - my first job from school was in a Laboratory and my interests led me the blackpowder route. I never lost any fingers, but I did blow an eyeball right out of my head which put me in shitty humour for a while.
I never did learn any lesson from that, because I still make it - but your wet recipe sounds a bit safer than my dry one - which is mixing small lots of measured ingredients in a plastic ball mill at low speed in my lathe. I switch it on and off at the end of a thirty foot extension lead. The 'shit your pants' part is the fear of static electricity when you unscrew the lid to dump it out - so I get my youngest to do that  Undecided
Another interesting thing with urine, apart from the fact that  mixed with water it was really good for soaking your John Bull's in for breaking - is, it will shrink the hell out of them if you leave it in them for too long.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #11 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 5:37am
Print Post  
SF90, Yes the Boiling seems to lessen the danger aspect ( ball mills are just scary) and as the Nitrate is disolved I would think it is more redely taken into the charcole. made some for a mates cannon and that time I just used water not urine , still works.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #12 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 9:01am
Print Post  
Cheers Tasbay - I'm an old dog learning new tricks.
I initially just used the mill to grind the charcoal, then I got talking to a guy who made his own fireworks and he said he used his mill to finally mix/incorporate all the ingredients - so that's what I did. I was always nervous doing it, so I only mixed 4 ounces at a time - running it in the mill for half to three quarters of an hour.
Prior to that I mixed it dry in a bowl with a wooden spoon before adding in the water. It would still go bang, but my god - did it leave some shit in the barrel.
I knew about the urine, but I don't remember ever using it - only water.
I wished I'd known about that wet method earlier.
Incidentally - the Black Powder boys won't let you shoot homemade on their range, not where I am anyway - so I jumped the fence to the Deerstalkers who don't seem to look too deep into things.
Another charcoal worth looking at is Hazel - I've got a hedge just along from me and it seems to work about the same as willow.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #13 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 11:57pm
Print Post  
Interesting the Black powder boys won`t let you use homemade powder as I would have thought alot of their ethos was old school do it your self not buy over the counter.Survivalists in the U.S push the Flintlock as being the ultimate survival firearm as you can scrounge / make everything it needs. Thats been part of the problem here where I live , you can`t get black powder local and Christchurch is the nearest so had to find another solution IE: make it yourself, was the same for percussion caps. once you have the recipe and the fact you get about 56lbs of powder for the price of 1lb of bought its in my mind a no brainer.
Pine can also be used for charcole and is used alot in the U.S but as it seems the Europeans introduced Willow pretty well everywhere they imigrated to and I`m sure it wasn`t just to hold up river banks. There is a differance between burn rates of powder made from Crack willow as from river banks and whatever the willow is used for shelter belts. The crack willow burns faster from what I can tell.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gonebush
Donor Member
*****
Offline


7mm REM MAG forever

Posts: 560
Location: Onewhero
Joined: Jan 21st, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #14 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 1:21am
Print Post  
SF90 wrote on Oct 5th, 2016 at 1:07pm:
the French preferred urine from a wine drinker for their powder manufacture



I will see how a bourbon drinker preforms  Cheesy
  

There are Hunters and fishermen and the rest of you SAD Bastards!!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Flintlock
Donor Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6378
Location: Blenheim
Joined: Oct 14th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #15 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 1:52am
Print Post  
The Swiss make the best black powder and they use Alderwood charcoal as their base . It seems it has a higher creosote content , thus makes the fowling softer and easier to remove . its burning rate is 20% faster than Goex so less is needed for the same velocity. It is what used to be called rifle powder in the old days  Goex etc are more like old time musket powders . There were many different powders including one with a charcoal made from straw .
Bishops Pee was esteemed in making powder , probably because they had a better quality of alcohol than the peasants ale Grin
  

Shooting is the most fun you can legally have with your clothes on .
Proverbs 12:27
The lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #16 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 2:41am
Print Post  
Safety first is the major concern with the boys up here and while some had no concerns, others did, so the vote went - no homemade. I didn't have any problem with it - hell, one of the first lots I made put me in hospital for 4 months - and that was a little over fifty years ago.
I also made most of my BP shooters back yonder - either cobbled together from existing bits or from scratch and the BP boys had no problem with them.
Interestingly - as a young fellow I'd buy my BP from the Sports Depot in Wellington for my cartridge shooters and it would come loose in a brown paper bag. Can't remember when I first got it in a can, but it must have been after 1967 because I still have that Curtiss & Harvey can with the price tag $2.15.
Getting hold of powder was sometimes a problem - I don't think the modern replicas were around then, so you either parked your gun or made your own - and that's where I went.
I've never heard of 'crack willow' - I just cut sticks from a tree down by the lake where I live. Can't remember what I used in the early days - probably pine or cedar, because that's what I used in an old forge I got.
This topic is interesting for me because all I ever did was the same thing over and over and because it worked I never saw need to change. I saw that with the black powder crowd - I was shooting BP before most of them were born, but they knew a hell of a lot more than I did about how to get a gun shooting. If I could smack the 6" gong at 100 I was happy - more than a few of them could smack the 3" at 200.
I initially joined this forum to listen to talk about places I hunted 30, 40 years ago - access, animal numbers - stuff like that - and I'm glad I did - there's a lot more to this site than just that.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #17 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 2:59am
Print Post  
Good man 'Gonebush' - we need some more experimenters on here.
And 'Flintlock' - I know the Vicar down in Eastbourne who is friends with the Bishop of Wellington. I've got a feeling here I just might be able to get you some pee - be very interested in hearing how it goes.
I've never used Swiss - still got a few cans of powder I got a very long time ago.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #18 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 4:00am
Print Post  
Spent the last 4 days making a batch of powder - about 350 grams.

Used the standard 75%KNO3; 15% Charcoal, 10% Sulphur formula and made my charcoal from Crack Willow as per Tasbay's suggestion.
I think it was a Crack Willow - certainly a willow of some sort.

Had done some homework and used the 'Double and Double' method for ball milling - which made me a little less nervous than ball milling all components at once.

Once done, I sieved the two lots together several times to combine it.

Took two and a half days to mill it as I ran the charcoal/KNO3 and sulphur/Charcoal lots through the mill for 3 hours in small batches - came out like flour and I'm still picking black out of my nose.
Could do other stuff while this was happening, but needed to be close to keep an eye on things.

I then dampened three 17 gram lots of the mixed ingredients very slightly with water and pressed a combined total of 51 gram, 61mm diameter pucks with a 10 ton jack in my press frame.
I separated that 51 gram puck into three parts using plastic milk bottle discs so I got 3.4mm thick pucks.

I dried the pucks overnight and yesterday and spent half of today granulating the powder with my son's heavy dumbell as a roller - the powder in a plastic bag on the concrete floor and running it through sieves.

At the end of the exercise I got about 35% 1F, 25% 2F and the rest fines.
Out of those 'fines' I expect a good percentage of 3F (when I find the bloody sieve), some 4F for pan priming and the rest meal - or dust, which I'll likely press with the next lot.

co*k-ups - I fractured half the pucks tapping them out of the die without slacking it off. These pucks were softer and easier to break and provided most of the dust.
The other half I slackened the die and removed them whole - and these pucks proved much harder, granulated better and gave less dust.

At the end of the day that was a lot of time and effort for a small amount of powder.

Performance wise an equal measure of Homemade and Goex weigh so close to the same it doesn't matter and both 'flash off' without any discernible difference.

Next test is down the range - when I get my car fixed and can actually get down there.

I like Tasbay's method of doing it, but as I only test down the range and use my guns for hunting I will put the effort into a compressed powder I can volumetrically measure - but I will need to smarten up my process.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #19 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:48am
Print Post  
sounds like a great way to spend some time......one day I might just look into it...got to have spare $$$$$ to buy front stuffer to begin with.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #20 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:57am
Print Post  
Careful MD - it can get addictive  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #21 - Aug 20th, 2017 at 1:04am
Print Post  
Update to my above post .........

Made a new mould for my 1:48" twist snider. Bullet was .600" diameter and 1.100" long and cast out in soft lead at 811 grns.
I knew it was going to be heavy, but that 811 grns surprised me, so I hollow pointed some with a quarter inch drill by .800" deep which brought the weight down to 708 grns.
Loading ten Bertram cases with 65 grns of my home made 2F powder which I drop tubed then compressed 1/8" to allow room for lube cookies, wads etc, I seated five of the 811 grainers and crimped them. Then I did the same with the hollow pointed bullets and galloped off to the range.

My gun weighs six and three quarter pound and I had a feeling recoil would be brisk.
First off I fired the heavy solid from a standing offhand position.
I weigh 70 kgs and despite being firmly anchored, the recoil from that shot gave me a solid belt on my cheekbone and sent me back a step.
Next up I loaded the 708 grainer and achieved much the same result - so I went home and pulled the unfired bullets and drilled them through, opened the base and plugged them with manuka dowel.
Got the weight down to 500 grns, so back to the range with the same powder loading and managed to get seven out of ten bullets on a two by two foot square target.

I've turfed that mould, but the upside is my home made powder while a little less dense than Goex 2F (can only get 400 gms in a 1 lb tin) ignites easily with pistol primers, seems to have equivalent power and gives a softer, fluffier fouling which cleans out very easy with ballistol/water moosemilk.

I've since made another two kilos of powder - the process going much quicker and easier with a larger ball mill and better knowledge of what I'm doing.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #22 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 1:10am
Print Post  
Observations .......

Went back to shooting the .600" round ball in the Snider to play some more with the powder.
Loading the case with 70grs homemade 2F powder (not drop tubed), a card wad, wax paper wad, grease cookie, another card wad, wax paper followed by the ball seated in a bed of the missus hand cream, then crimped, I achieved two 2" five shot groups at fifty yards.
Walking up to the target, I found both the cookies and felt wads had travelled almost all the way - only a meter or two short, which indicates they were either sticking to the ball or traveling close behind in its draft.
Looking at the fired cookies, they still had the card and wax paper stuck either side and while spread out to 19mm looked as though they'd lost no weight and if squashed back to diameter could be fired again.
Doubting any useful effect these cookies had on fouling control, I looked through the barrel and was utterly startled to find it still shiny through most of its length - just a few specks here and there with some soft, moist soot in the last few inches at the muzzle.

Going home, I filled a case with my 1F and found it held 96grs scooped powder.
Loading 90grs (not drop tubed) I followed with a card wad then a wax paper wad followed by the ball in its bed of cream.
Back to the range I got a ten shot 5" group with added recoil and cheek slap from that Snider stock. As the string progressed, the group opened up suggesting fouling build up - or possible flinch.
The sights are low on that gun and from the bench I have to scrunch down to line them up. Offhand it's a different story - they line up naturally.
This time the barrel was dirty and pushing a dry patch through was difficult and produced hard, flake fouling in the action bed.
I didn't clean between shooting strings.
It still cleaned up easily with moosemilk after a short soaking.

So - what do I think about all this ?

I have never liked the idea of inert fillers other than wads and cookies for lube control.
My grease cookie appeared to have done squat when inspected after firing and I didn't like that it had traveled so far. Yet - I can't deny the cleanliness of the barrel after firing those five shots with the 2F.
The 1F fouls badly but at the same time gave me four or five shots into 3" before spreading the group with the last five shots.
I like the idea of the 1F due to its bulk loading and the fact that is what I produce the most of - assuming I can get decent velocity using it.

My primary purpose in all this is to develop a hunting load where only one or two shots will be fired, so all the above is hardly significant - yet somehow I can't unwrap my head from it.

Might have to spring for a chronograph - and I wonder if a duplex load of 15 or 20grs 2 or 3F behind the 1F will help with a cleaner burn ?

And a new flat base mould - as I really do like hollow pointed bullets for hunting.



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #23 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 8:32am
Print Post  
Update to my 'update' and 'observations' for anyone who hasn't been bored to death.

Made a new front sight utilising a Parker Hale hooded sight that takes various inserts. I pinched this idea from the Britishmilitaria forum - just pinched it in much the same way I pinch my neighbour's smoking sawdust and grapes.
Made the barrel fitting from a threaded pipe fitting I bored to a tap fit over the barrel, then slotted it to straddle the original sight and filed in a dovetail to accept the sight.
This sits considerably higher than the original sight and brings the POI to just below centre at 50yds using the 200yd rear express sight.
With the 300yd leaf raised I am just above centre at 100yds, but grouping with the round ball was a little dismal at that range - around 8" with the following load.
85grs 1F 'homemade' BP drop tubed into case followed by a wax paper disc, then a 2.4mm Beeswax/Vaseline cookie followed by another wax disc.
The ball was laid in a bed of handcream and crimped.
This load shot five into 3" at 50yd and with the new raised sight was comfortable from the bench.
The barrel stayed moist to the muzzle (24" barrel) and after five shots a dry patch was easily pushed through leaving the barrel shiny.
Digging two fired balls from the dirt backstop I found the bases clean of lube, nor was there any imbedded marking from powder combustion or particles.
The ball casts at .602" and shows a bore riding section 5mm long with clean rifling and no sign of gas blowing past.
Surprising considering the pitting near the breach and mid-barrel.
With the shooting the barrel is developing some shine and the last 6" has come up relatively clean.

Another thing I have done is spin up new reloading components from brass in my lathe.
Previously I had been priming with an old shotgun priming and de-priming tool I had modified. While it worked, I was never truly happy I was seating the primers as well as I could be, so spinning up an offcut of brass 5/8" thick by 32mm diameter. I recessed one face 1/16" deep to locate the case rim, then I drilled through so a primer dropped in. The other face was left flat.
The second part to this is a plunger 32mm long by 16mm diameter. I spun the back of this about 3/8" diam by .200" long and this part locates in the top of my press plunger - centering it.
The front part I machined to a sliding fit in the offcut disc primer hole by 22mm long. The end of this plunger is concaved for the RWS primers.
Around the primer plunger is a spring so that when assembled and with the plunger base located in the press ram, the recessed disc wobbles above on the spring, the plunger face low enough within the hole to drop a primer in. I then sit the case in the recess and using the press ram and with a dowel in the case that contacts a thin hand held plate at the top - seat the new primer.
That's a shitty description but it works very well and is moderately quick and reliable.
I also use the disc on its own for de-priming with a pin I made.
I only work the front 1/16" of the case and I do this with a simple flaring tool (brass) and a crimping tool I made from a small iron pipe fitting that also work well.
I like to carry my hunting cartridges in my pockets, so crimping was necessary.

After every range session I de-prime the brass then anneal over a candle using the de-priming pin to spin the case over the flame until I feel the heat at the rim (count to twenty four or thirty) - then drop into water. Some days, and for reasons unknown - I count quicker.
Next is to wipe the soot off the neck, give them a quick scrub in the sink with my wife's toothbrush, then into vinegar while I deal with the rifle - then a rinse and pop them on the windowsill to dry. If I'm in a hurry I'll dry them inside and out with toilet paper.
These are expensive cases - I look after them.
I also wash my cleaning patches (wife's scented bar soap) and re-use them until they fall apart.

So - at the end of all this, all I wanted to say was the lube cookie worked well with only a wax paper disc separating the cookie from the powder.
I did consider using a 'hand cream' cookie and managed to make some by freezing it for a short time, but found it 'wet' through the wax paper - so discarded that idea.

Next session is to use plain mutton tallow for a cookie and see how that goes. I have some - my dad brought it home from Lever Bros. where he worked many years ago - maybe even forty years ago. That stuff has sat in my drawer wrapped in plastic for all that time and though it has yellowed some and has some dark spots on it still smells good enough to eat.
I will do that because I read some bloke who said he placed his tallow cookies directly on the powder with no apparent ill effects - even after his loads had sat in his truck in the Texas heat.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #24 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 9:13am
Print Post  
ok so got it now..... you arent front stuffing at all,you filling a case and reloading...
so in theory same would go for shotgun case or indeed rifle case......look out trailboss sales there is a cheaper option out there. Grin Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #25 - Sep 13th, 2017 at 11:51am
Print Post  
Yep, this particular chappie is a modern shooter in that it takes a self contained cartridge much as the latest thing on the shop shelf today does.
They're a fascinating gun in that the original Sniders, or Snider Enfield Rifle if you wish to be pedantic about it were conversions from the .577 Enfield rifled musket (muzzleloading) introduced 1853 in various patterns through to 1867 when the Snider action was used to convert the Enfield muzzleloader into a cartridge shooter.
Mine is a Mark 3 and was built as a sporting rifle about 1875.

In 1874 the Martini Henry 577/450 superseded the Snider, which in turn was replaced by the various .303's.

What makes the Snider so fascinating is that during all its short lived military life, the cartridges were loaded with an undersize Minie bullet designed for the muzzleloading rifle of which the British War Department had an awful lot of.
With a groove size of around .590" (mine .596") at the breech (tapered rifling) and a bullet that was a slip fit in the bore - about .575" - these things would mostly not shoot for shit. As someone once said - you couldn't hit a barn if you was inside it.

I've had a few of these things and I love them, but this is the only one I have now and while it's been parked for a while - it's now time for me to play with it.

And indeed - I could if I chose shoot modern powders out of it, it's quite a strong action - but I don't make modern powders, wouldn't have a clue how to go about it - but I do make black and that's what all this started out about - the Snider just being the vehicle in which to play and test it.

Sort of took over a bit - didn't it.

But that's what Snider's do - they're a bastard gun, once you've got one there's not a lot else in life matters.
Snider owners are a queer bunch (I think 'J' has one) and are capable of only talking about bullet diameter, form (minie or flat base), bullet weight, fast or slow twist, whether you shoot with a lube cookie (and what is it) or do you shoot with a dab of Udderly Smooth, hand cream or KY Jelly on the bullet nose and other shit like that.
I'm not one of them, I merely lurk the fringes like a gypsy dog picking up tasty morsels here and there (and the occasional woman's undergarments) - but I did get carried away and with the ensuing headrush felt I had something astonishingly interesting to say.
And if you haven't really got what that lot are like, even after all my explaining - I was shooting on the Deerstalkers Range a while back when I felt I sensed a hint of alcohol fumes drifting across from the Black Powder range next door.
Wrapping up I galloped over to get my fair share and had barely arrived when in my excitement I passed what can only be described as a 'black powder' fart - I'd been shooting black on the other range.
As discreet as that fart was and despite me moving rapidly to disown it, the gathering of hardcore BP men (and lone strange woman) recognised a possible kinship and fell into a slow jostling dance several steps behind, heads bobbing like flamingos in an effort to locate the source.
Like I said, blackpowder people are odd buggers, but I suppose when Judgement Day comes (not far off) and all the modern powder is shot up and us guys (me excluded) are throwing rocks, spears and shooting arrows - those queer buggers are going to have the last laugh.

And I think it is interesting - and because I think it is - so should everyone else.

I also shoot frontstuffers in cap and flint - and they're okay too, but yesterday, today and tomorrow is reserved for my Snider because I haven't finished playing with it yet.

And I'm not entirely sure Trailboss will be cheaper - a pound of homemade BP cost me between 3 and 4 bucks.
With stolen roof flashing for bullets, cheap powder and donkey's year old primers I probably didn't pay more than a half crown for - my shooting ain't never been so cheap.


« Last Edit: Sep 14th, 2017 at 11:31am by SF90 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #26 - Sep 14th, 2017 at 6:36am
Print Post  
cheap is good Grin Grin Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #27 - Sep 14th, 2017 at 8:05am
Print Post  
Haven`t pulled my Snider down and shot it for a while now. Been too busy trying to get the 58 cal Mountain rifle to behave.
Had good luck shooting the Snider with 28Ga shotgun brass , just shortened and fire formed , sitting on a case full of home made corned Black powder and a .600 ball pressed down onto it. No lube or wadding . It shot 2-3 inch groups at 50mts. Surprising really and fun to shoot. Mine is a Cavalry carbine.
As the case rim is too small I just knock out the fired cases with a ram rod.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #28 - Sep 14th, 2017 at 10:43am
Print Post  
Micky Duck wrote on Sep 14th, 2017 at 6:36am:
cheap is good Grin Grin Grin


At my age and with some bad financial decisions behind me - 'cheap' is all that's left.
What you need mate - is a Snider.
You're far too happy a person and need bringing back to harsh reality - a Snider will do just that.

And Tasbay - you're the bugga that got me rolling on this.
Glad you did though, it's given me something to do and kept me in a good mood.
Missus is probably not so happy though - say's I remind her of a blinkered horse going hell for taffy to god knows where.
And she's taken her pot of hand cream back with some harsh words thrown in for good measure, so tomorrow I shall scrub the toilet with her toothbrush.

I did have a shorty for a while - just can't remember what it was. The others I had were long guns and I liked them too - made up all sorts of swaging dies to get those things going - didn't know or even think about balls back then. Shot some deer with them too - very satisfying.
What's the barrel like in yours - and do you get any leading ??
Reason I ask is I got bad leading shooting dry with this one, so that's why I'm playing with various lube cookies.
The guys over on the Britishmilitaria forum mostly don't like cookies so much, they dollop a big blob of Udderly Smooth (udder/body cream) on the nose of the bullet and say it cures their leading problems.
I don't want to do that so use the cookie in the hope a good amount of it squishes past the ball before it engraves in the rifling.
I don't know if that's happening, but I do know my leading problem has gone away.

And I'm glad you told me about the extraction difficulties with the shotgun brass - I had read it before but had forgotten. There's some Magtech 24Ga brass on TM I was saving up for, but I think I'll give it a miss now.
I've got quite a few Bertram cases here I got a while back plus some turned ones I kept from years ago, but I like to keep stocked up - you never know when this sort of stuff will get hard to get.

I don't know what weight of your corned powder you can cram in your cases, I loaded some 95gr loads today of my powder which I had to compress 3/16" to get a 5mm cookie and ball into the case.
Yours will probably be a quicker powder than mine.

One day I'll have this gun sorted and by the time that's done I'll be sick of the bloody thing and throw it back in the rack.
Then I'll play with something else until I'm sick of that too - and that's how it's mostly gone for much of my life - feast and famine.

I will make another mould for it though  - I make them out of a disc of aircraft aluminium I cut from a 3" bar I got.
I three jaw it in the lathe, face it, then drill to depth with a 1/4" drill. Following that I run a slot drill (milling cutter with 2 teeth) to depth that I profile on the grinder then bore out the bearing diameter to whatever size and length I want.
I then bolt on a handle and Lyman sprue plate and start casting. These bullets are straight sided, or very slightly tapered, no grease grooves and pretty much fall out the mould once the sprue is cut and I turn them upside down.
I've made a few like that for my other guns, but I paper patch those and they shoot as good as I want them to.
I also made a few that didn't work plus a couple of split ones with grooves that also didn't go so well. Lot of work in those buggers, I got to face plate them as my four jaw is buggered.
I got a formula here on this computer I borrowed from someone else that gives expansion and shrinkage factors and my moulds will usually cast to one thou plus or minus.

I saw you got a Mountain rifle - even looked it up to see what it was - take you on a ride these things - don't they.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #29 - Sep 14th, 2017 at 9:00pm
Print Post  
SFf90, The Brass I use in the Snider is Magtec 28ga  not 24ga. The 24ga needs to be reshaped in a press but the case rims are wide enough to work in the Snider extractor. The 28ga on the other hand fits the Snider chamber and fire forms on first shooting, just need to knock out the fired brass with the Sniders cleaning rod.
The cases after firing a few times get a bit lose on holding the ball so I just dry patch them when pressing them in the case in a bench vice.
Haven`t had any leading issues that I have noticed and the barrel is pristine apart from one pit ..(cave) halfway down the barrel. Powder charge would be around 50gr FF so not pushing the ball hard, its an old gun , prefer it goes bang rather than Boom.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #30 - Sep 15th, 2017 at 4:39am
Print Post  
Never heard of anyone using 28G brass before - thought you'd thrown in a typo - good to know that.
My chamber's on the big side from what I read, the .602" round ball rattles in the neck of the fireformed case - another reason I crimp in an attempt to center the ball in the case.
I seat that ball half in and half out.

I fired those 95gr Tallow loads this morning and they rattled my teeth some - so I'll back down a bit.
For some reason I can never really bring myself to shoot soft loads out of any of my old BP guns. I don't particularly like recoil, certainly not in a nitro gun, but I do put up with it in these things.
I doubt there's much happening in the way of high pressure going on - not with the coarse powder anyway.
Those RWS primers I'm using are a soft brass cup and show no deformation at all. I deform them more knocking them out of the case.

Talking about old guns I remember knocking around with a girl who's dad shot an old 12 bore M/L down the range. That was in my early twenties and I remember everyone stood clear of him when he shot that thing as smoke would curl up from the woodwork after the shot.
The barrel on that gun was so thin you could dent it with decent pressure from your thumb - the dent popping out again when you released pressure. Underneath mid way down the barrel it had pinholes where it had pitted all the way through for a six inch section and the woodwork in the barrel channel had chewed out quite deeply.
He eventually got it banned from the range but still used it for the odd bunny.
After he snuffed it his son took the barrel off, wrapped stock and barrel in a sack and turfed it at the old Wingate tip down by Taita.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #31 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 12:41am
Print Post  
just had to re-read this one...pure gold.are you chaps still making smoke out and about or was there a big puff of smoke as the back shed dissapeared over the horizon closely followed by the wail of sirens???
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #32 - Jan 6th, 2019 at 12:20pm
Print Post  
Nah mate - just got really busy doing other stuff, besides I made enough to last me a while - and I still haven't done that range course, so can't shoot it off down there.

I did 'fiddle' with a Lee mould I got and have some hope they'll shoot okay in the Snider - and once I get to do that I'll write some more.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #33 - Jan 7th, 2019 at 7:32am
Print Post  
Yep still making it. Was down the river a couple of days ago cutting Willow trunks and stripping the bark off to let them dry before making charcoal this winter.

Got the 58cal shooting one and half inch 6 shot groups at 50yds a couple of weeks ago...… Homemade powder.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #34 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 5:17am
Print Post  
Tasbay wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 7:32am:
Yep still making it. Was down the river a couple of days ago cutting Willow trunks and stripping the bark off to let them dry before making charcoal this winter.

Got the 58cal shooting one and half inch 6 shot groups at 50yds a couple of weeks ago...… Homemade powder.


That's good shooting - light or stiff load and how did she go at 75yds - if you tried it that far ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #35 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 6:43am
Print Post  
so Ive been thinking about this for last few days..... willow is the preferred wood to use for charcoal..... TAWA would have to be the nearest native we have...but dont see it down here in the south...so it got me thinking just what are the properties of willow that make it ideal....
as firewood it burns fast and clean with little ash or embers

so thinking about fast burning I wonder how TOTARA would go????
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #36 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:33am
Print Post  
Micky Duck wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 6:43am:
so Ive been thinking about this for last few days..... willow is the preferred wood to use for charcoal..... TAWA would have to be the nearest native we have...but dont see it down here in the south...so it got me thinking just what are the properties of willow that make it ideal....
as firewood it burns fast and clean with little ash or embers

so thinking about fast burning I wonder how TOTARA would go????


Usually its a hardwood that is used for Charcoal. Surprisingly Willow comes into that category. Elder , Grape and as used a bit in the U.S Pine are all suitable for BP Charcoal. Most manufacturers use a Willow of some type. The Charcoal ingredient of the Black Powder is actually the pivotal ingredient . Brown it right and you produce excellent powder.   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #37 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 8:36am
Print Post  
SF90 wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 5:17am:
Tasbay wrote on Jan 7th, 2019 at 7:32am:
Yep still making it. Was down the river a couple of days ago cutting Willow trunks and stripping the bark off to let them dry before making charcoal this winter.

Got the 58cal shooting one and half inch 6 shot groups at 50yds a couple of weeks ago...… Homemade powder.


That's good shooting - light or stiff load and how did she go at 75yds - if you tried it that far ?


The 58 had me perplexed for quite some time till I figured the coned barrel was actually ramrod wear at the muzzle. Cut off 15mm and crowned and hey presto 12 inch groups shrunk to in many cases hole in hole at 50mts... the Buck Horn sights don`t really help but I have got used to them and actually quite like them now.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #38 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 9:02am
Print Post  
did about a litre (ground)of willow in my fish smoker on the BBQ on Sunday...took a fair while to cook and even longer to mill with head off sledgehammer and old meatdish,my arms got good workout Grin some is brownish so hopefully got it about right.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #39 - Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:19am
Print Post  
Had to laugh about the 'coned muzzle' story, but see how it could easily happen.
Once you had the idea in your head it was built that way it'd be pretty hard to shake.

When it comes to charcoal I suspect there's a number of woods that'll do a reasonable job - like balsa and reeds are supposed to make a really good charcoal - along with others as mentioned here.
Don't think I ever read where someone did a study on NZ timbers for that use - there'll be some good ones.

Willow is the wood of choice for a lot of guys deeply into pyrotechnics - just do a search on how far some of these guys are shooting a golf ball with their 'home made' - those guys are nuts, but get impressive results.

Your charcoal if you smashed it up long enough will be gritty, like sugar or salt granules perhaps.
I mill it to the consistency of fine flour, or 'air float' - and I think I remember that being important.

What I suggest is you get a large round hard plastic wide mouth jar and half fill it with ball bearings, nuts, lead balls - or similar.
Then spoon in some of your charcoal to 3/4 full, button it up and let it roll around the floor of your truck for a few trips.
Have never tried it ...... might work ?

I probably wouldn't worry too much with the sulphur or nitrate - and whatever you do - don't do it with charcoal and nitrate mixed together - you'll have a potential bomb.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #40 - Jan 10th, 2019 at 9:57pm
Print Post  
SF90 wrote on Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:19am:
Had to laugh about the 'coned muzzle' story, but see how it could easily happen.
Once you had the idea in your head it was built that way it'd be pretty hard to shake.

When it comes to charcoal I suspect there's a number of woods that'll do a reasonable job - like balsa and reeds are supposed to make a really good charcoal - along with others as mentioned here.
Don't think I ever read where someone did a study on NZ timbers for that use - there'll be some good ones.

Willow is the wood of choice for a lot of guys deeply into pyrotechnics - just do a search on how far some of these guys are shooting a golf ball with their 'home made' - those guys are nuts, but get impressive results.

Your charcoal if you smashed it up long enough will be gritty, like sugar or salt granules perhaps.
I mill it to the consistency of fine flour, or 'air float' - and I think I remember that being important.

What I suggest is you get a large round hard plastic wide mouth jar and half fill it with ball bearings, nuts, lead balls - or similar.
Then spoon in some of your charcoal to 3/4 full, button it up and let it roll around the floor of your truck for a few trips.
Have never tried it ...... might work ?

I probably wouldn't worry too much with the sulphur or nitrate - and whatever you do - don't do it with charcoal and nitrate mixed together - you'll have a potential bomb.




Had bought the CVA a while ago and it would group very well then for some reason throw the odd shot up to a foot out at 50yds. I struggled to figure it out, tried different powder, patch , lube, ball combinations but nothing seemed to fix it. It had a nice coned barrel as well. I finally contacted the guy I bought it off and asked had he bought it new and had he coned the barrel. He said he had bought it new when he was in Africa and built it from a kit. Had never coned the barrel. Cut 15mm of the end and crowned it and hey presto no more flyers and good groups.  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #41 - Jan 13th, 2019 at 8:15am
Print Post  
coffee tin of totara (dead branch on tree in section) took 1hr 45 minutes of cooking and was still throwing out flames from coffee tin..as it settled down I turned off the heat...will see tomorow if its done and indeed if there is anything left in tin to crush.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #42 - Jan 13th, 2019 at 10:30pm
Print Post  
conclusion...Totara charcoal is MUCH MUCH harder than willow..... took a heck of a lot to crush it to powder but it is done now and looks pretty good to my untrained eyes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #43 - Jan 19th, 2019 at 5:21am
Print Post  
hard case...the sulphur and nitrate arrived packaged in single courier bag with zero labeling....couldve been interesting if van had caught fire Grin Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Flintlock
Donor Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6378
Location: Blenheim
Joined: Oct 14th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #44 - Jan 19th, 2019 at 9:45pm
Print Post  
The Swiss probably make the best black powder currently made , they use Alder buckthorn wood , have a look at this for grain sizes etc . http://www.blackpowder.ch/powder/shooting-powder and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frangula_alnus
and http://www.nzflora.info/factsheet/Taxon/Frangula-alnus.html, I have a mate who has it growing on his farm here in Marlborough , it is a bit of a weed .
You have to remove all the bark off any wood you use for charcoal , also if you chop the wood up or use twigs it will be easier to produce the required results .
  

Shooting is the most fun you can legally have with your clothes on .
Proverbs 12:27
The lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #45 - Jan 19th, 2019 at 10:33pm
Print Post  
I did wonder about sawdust....it sure would save some breaking up LOL.
looking at links it appears that a grain/mesh size of maybe 1mm will be ok.
time to go do some mixing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #46 - Jan 20th, 2019 at 4:16am
Print Post  
well you are spot on with weight..... I measured how much sugar will fit in .45/70 case to about where projectile will sit when seated...4cc spoonfull fits neatly....4cc spoon of homebrewed crude smelly weighs 36grains. I guess with a little wooden dowel encouragement I might get 40-45grains in Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #47 - Jan 20th, 2019 at 10:09am
Print Post  
Potassium Nitrate and sulphur mixed is harmless and so is charcoal and sulphur - but nitrate and charcoal is an explosive mixture, even without the sulphur.

A lot of Pyro guys produce a powder that has more grunt than pretty much any commercial BP powder, including Swiss - and a rep from GOEX when quizzed about it, quite simply explained that they weren't interested in making a 'super powerful' powder - just one that was moderately comparative to powders of old, and one that did the job.
Swiss as a commercial powder is considerably more powerful than Goex, and I have trialed it. It was also more accurate, but expensive - and I simply couldn't afford to shoot it.

But the name of the game here is making your own.
I did look for buckthorn, it's supposed to grow around here, but eventually decided my home brewed stuff was 'good enough'.

If you are talking your charcoal being 1mm chunks, then I would consider that far too coarse ..........

To test your powder once it's done, lay out some newspaper on your lawn on a non windy day. Place quarter a teaspoon of your powder on the paper in a slightly elongated hump - and touch it off with a long wax taper (I got some) or similar.
If you have a 'fast powder' it will flash off without burning a hole through the paper.
Another test is to crease the paper and lay a line of powder in the crease - then touch it off.
A 'slow' powder will burn like a fuse - "fizzzzzzz...."
A 'fast' powder will go - "Fwoosh' and be done with before you quite got your 'jollies'.

Tell us whether you got a 'fizzer' or a 'fwoosh'.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #48 - Jan 21st, 2019 at 12:48am
Print Post  
much much finer than 1mm.....I was talking the hole size in mesh of seive.....was an absolute PITA to get it through that so did half of it and kept moving,squashing the other half as it dried....happy enough with how it came out,looks not unlike granulated coffee.
will try another batch today with warm water rather than stale pee.....bishops might smell fine but truck drivers is rather funky on the nose Huh
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #49 - Jan 21st, 2019 at 2:56am
Print Post  
woohooo it smells like guy fawks night in my back yard right now LOL.
the willow brew with truck driver pee is a wizzzzzz but keeps going longtime
the Totara batch with water Ive just done (dried out quick) goes woosh (so much so my arse nearly went in sympathy)

the cadboard box I dried powder on burnt very nicely indeed.


when Totara brew has dried a bit more I will weigh 4cc and see what it runs at.Im picking it will be heavier . it mixed up really well,heaps easier than yesterdays effort.    47grns Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #50 - Jan 21st, 2019 at 10:40pm
Print Post  
You now need to test the power of your powder, look up - "Shooting anvils with gunpowder" on You Tube.

Or - you could shoot some lead down range.
Don't quite know if you'll get meaningful velocity from a cartridge gun as you might struggle to get sufficient powder in a case - a muzzle loader would be better.
My first powders were very crude (didn't have the Internet back then) - constituents ground in a mortar and pestle then dry mixed - and I shot it like that. Mostly out of my shottie or .58 Enfield, and while velocities would have been low (that was 'fizzing' powder) that big chunk of lead still managed to bring down goats and deer.
That powder left fouling with hard rust red shiny globules in it, but from memory I don't think it was too hard to clean out - that was fifty years ago.
« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2019 at 11:07am by SF90 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Flintlock
Donor Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6378
Location: Blenheim
Joined: Oct 14th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #51 - Jan 23rd, 2019 at 11:39pm
Print Post  
The red globules in the fouling is sulphur residue . Woods high in creosote are the best for making powder with soft fouling / easy cleaning properties , not pines.
Pouring  your finished powder into  a pure cotton sports sock ( it has the required thickness )and carefully shaking it about will remove dust and graphite and will make the powder more even burning . That is pure cotton NO synthetics at all.  We used to do this with Elephant powder and definitely got better accuracy . The sock can be washed and dried between uses ,
  

Shooting is the most fun you can legally have with your clothes on .
Proverbs 12:27
The lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #52 - Feb 1st, 2019 at 10:12am
Print Post  
well 45grns of my totara brew behind a 395 grn cast is VERY mild....bit like a 1/2 oz  2 1/2" .410 shotgun load and possibly quieter....as bonus the projectiles went in direction they pointed...cases look to have not expanded/sealed well at all so will try getting more in case and try again later... the smokeless loads went well and we managed to hit rough target at 30 ish yards....I can see a heap of fun in future with this rifle insert.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tasbay
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 315
Location: Nelson
Joined: May 29th, 2008
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #53 - Feb 2nd, 2019 at 10:04pm
Print Post  
Micky Duck: If you are using a thrown measure of powder you will need about 2x as much compared to bought powder as the powder isn`t compressed in manufacture.
Homemade corned powder is more suited to muzzleloaders as you can throw as much as needed down the barrel.
I load equivalent to 200-240 grains thrown measure in my 58cal which is about 100-120gr bought powder.

Compressed grained powder only came along with the advent of cartridge guns.
Get yourself some young Willow alive from a riverbank 3-5 inch thick , Peel it and dry it then make your charcoal. Most commercial powder is made from Willow.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #54 - Feb 3rd, 2019 at 9:06am
Print Post  
About what Tasbay says mate - your powder will have a low density and it's likely you'll never get enough in a case to give meaningful velocity.
I compress mine in a die with a ten ton jack and have been able to get 80grs weight of 2F in a 45/70 case if I slowly 'drop tube' and compress about 1/8".

If you stay uncompressed you need to start looking for a muzzleloader - and it's pretty hard to beat .58 cal.
I got a 'put together' Musketoon built on a Parker Hale stock with a 1:78" twist barrel (Tony Hawkins) and Tower lock, and that shoots patched ball and a short bullet equally well.

You can drop as much powder as you want in that, BP doesn't develop anything like the pressure nitro does.
From my Lyman BP Handbook - .58" cal; 570 gr bullet; 80 grs G-O FFg: 886 fps; ME 992 ft/lbs; 5,200 psi (lead units of pressure).
Same bullet with 140 grs G-O; 1252 fps; ME 1,981 ft/lbs; 9,900 psi (measured as lead units of pressure).

The service charge for the American Springfield and British Enfield rifles was about 70 grs powder under a 460 gr minie bullet (under-sized hollow base) for about 840 fps - and despite that low velocity that minie was very effective on man and animal.
I made a solid base mould for mine and paper patch it to a slight interference in the bore - very easy loading.

Just throwing a thought your way  Roll Eyes

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Donor Member
*****
Offline


You shot it..You pluck
it

Posts: 7417
Location: Geraldine South Canterbury
Joined: Dec 6th, 2013
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #55 - Feb 4th, 2019 at 9:43am
Print Post  
fitted 54grns of my totara brew in case and topped off with 415grn flat base...they have a tad more wallop than the 45 grn loads and by my gonkulations are at about 77% of old std loading so pretty happy with that...they still nice to shoot.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SF90
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1595
Joined: Jul 14th, 2014
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #56 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 10:15am
Print Post  
There you go mate, you're in the game.

Watched a mate plonk two reds a few years back with a Westley Richards .450 at 100 yards and got two 'pass through's' with only 55 grs BP. Bullet was 420gr from memory and his powder shop bought Goex.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Flintlock
Donor Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6378
Location: Blenheim
Joined: Oct 14th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Black powder and the cheap ass
Reply #57 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 2:47pm
Print Post  
I have a book on ML firearms used by the North American Plains Tribes and captured or surrendered . All the charges were pulled and weighed out , it seems that the average Buffalo load was about 35 grains , it shows what getting close on a horse and bullet placement can do .
  

Shooting is the most fun you can legally have with your clothes on .
Proverbs 12:27
The lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 
Send TopicPrint
 

FishnHunt - New Zealands Famous Hunting and Fishing Forum Since 1995 » Powered by YaBB 2.6.11!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2019. All Rights Reserved.
Site Design By Alan Simmons - PRism and all rights are reserved from 1995 and onwards