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Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Hunter representation (Read 49509 times)
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Hunter representation
Jun 21st, 2015 at 11:57pm
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This will hopefully elicit some responses as we seem to be at quite a crossroads when it comes to hunters actually having effective representation that is "respected" by politicians and civil servants alike.
Hunters are generally good bastards but also absolute arseholes in many regards.  We are cheap, self centred, independent cats who refuse to be herded!  Some would wear that as a badge of honour but they will never contribute anything to seeing their sport supported and maintained.  That has got to change and soon!  Increasingly we are being marginalised because we are disparate and lack a common voice.
Our sport is not alone and it appears to be due to a rapidly ageing population and a disconnected younger age group who see no value in anything clubs offer.
Quite frankly I know many club officials and members are at their wits end trying to make sense of it and get some glue in place to hold it all together.
 
So, I ask you this:
Would you contribute to one organisation to represent your rights and views on national issues affecting hunters and hunting?

How much do you think you should contribute per year and would you want a say in how that organisation argues on your behalf?

Should access to hunting permits be restricted to only those who contribute to this organisation or should the cost of getting an annual permit(currently free) include the cost of belonging to that organisation?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #1 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:17am
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I don't see anyone taking my doc land hunting off me anytime in the future so I sure as hell wouldn't want to be made to join some club and pay for the priveledge of being a member in order to get my permits. I assume this is NZDA focused?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #2 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:27am
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MikeB wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:17am:
I don't see anyone taking my doc land hunting off me anytime in the future so I sure as hell wouldn't want to be made to join some club and pay for the priveledge of being a member in order to get my permits. I assume this is NZDA focused?


Nope, no preconceived ideas or outcomes, clean sheet.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #3 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:37am
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Id be happy to pay a sub/donation to an organised group who specifically stuck to an agenda to maintain hunters rights.

Name your price.  Grin

Id be cautions about linking it to permits at this point, but open to discussion.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #4 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:38am
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That's going to be a hard one. As what you belive and I belive could be two different ideals. Then chuck it into a club setting where more poeple lean to one side, does that mean the minority loses because I/ we have a different opinion and not enough support behind it. Then you through in the trophy hunting thing vs meat hunters. I would join a club if I thought that the minority had just as much say as  the majority.  But you can count me out of joining NZDA.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #5 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:42am
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Isn't the GAC supposed to be doing that?  Managing herds and protecting hunters rights.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #6 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:45am
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If we can could we just answer the questions, yes no etc.  If we get into discussion at this stage it will be pointless.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #7 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:46am
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hairy wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:42am:
Isn't the GAC supposed to be doing that?  Managing herds and protecting hunters rights.


My first thought too. Maybe we need a group that wanted to fight barehanded, no boxing gloves.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #8 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:52am
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hairy wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:42am:
Isn't the GAC supposed to be doing that?  Managing herds and protecting heli hunters rights.

They do don't they?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #9 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:20am
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hairy wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:42am:
Isn't the GAC supposed to be doing that?  Managing herds and protecting hunters rights.


Guess this demonstrates just how hunters are ignorant also, no offence Hairy you are not alone......Wink

Quote:
Key functions of the council include:

        advising and making recommendations to the Minister of Conservation on hunting issues,
        providing information and education to the sector,
        promoting safety initiatives,
        conducting game animal research,
        undertaking management functions for designated herds of special interest.


Oh and I should have added they have very little money to even establish the organisation let alone actually do any of these tasks.....
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #10 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:39am
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If NZDA & the GAC can't do this now, how do we think another organisation could? But yes I would contribute.

We need to get Waro, hunting & permits, etc away from DOC, that won't happen until Deer, tahr, chammy are reclassified as game animals not pests in law, that's what we need to change first.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #11 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:41am
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Totally agree with that statement. They are game animals for sure.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #12 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:44am
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headcase wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:37am:
Id be happy to pay a sub/donation to an organised group who specifically stuck to an agenda to maintain hunters rights.

Name your price.  Grin

Id be cautions about linking it to permits at this point, but open to discussion.


along these lines
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #13 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:52am
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sounds very Australian

I went for a walk with a cobba up the Brisbane valley and the only way you could hunt on land in this state was if you had private access or the other side was that you joined a club, that club then went out and approached farmers to get the club exclusive rights to hunt in return for labour on the farms (think working Be) which after floods come in handy. But this did restrict the number of times a member was allowed to hunt and also the number of deer they were allowed to harvest. So in short the club had XYZ properties it managed and then would allocate days and animals per person for the year, all you had to do was offer labour and pay the club a fee (not cheap from memory)

Why would we want to do this, i already pay to the NZDA so there should be no need for anything else.

What we do need though in a public forum is to be seen as 1 and not argue for 10-12 pages of the merits of being a bush hunter over say a LR hunter, this just shows we cant stand together and respect another hunters harvesting technique or even down to their own personal ethics.

Hamish
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #14 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:54am
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[I don't see anyone taking my doc land hunting off me anytime in the future so I sure as hell wouldn't want to be made to join some club and pay for the priveledge of being a member in order to get my permits. I assume this is NZDA focused?quote]

[/quote]
its happening already, MikeB, and some would argue, has done for many years.

The latest WARO review resulted in probably the biggest loss of WARO free hunting area, that I can recall.
WARO is essential, but not the way DOC is going about it, at present.

There is going to be more of the same, re loss of hunting.

The GAC has a statutory role over herds of special interest, otherwise its an advisory role to the minister for everything else, (I think)

Remains to be seen what they will do about issues they only give advise on. If the minister took notice of them,(and in fact the GAC spoke out for hunters)  then I'd argue that the GAC is the hunters representative.
and happily give $4 to it.

I think there is a difference between an organization like Hitop refers to, and the NZDA. The DA is really a group of clubs.
Not sure they are best placed to be advocates for hunters, even if it is one of their aims.

An organization independent of the many hunting clubs, might be best way to go.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #15 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:55am
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Quote:
I don't see anyone taking my doc land hunting off me anytime in the future so I sure as hell wouldn't want to be made to join some club and pay for the priveledge of being a member in order to get my permits. I assume this is NZDA


its happening already, MikeB, and some would argue, has done for many years.

The latest WARO review resulted in probably the biggest loss of WARO free hunting area, that I can recall.
WARO is essential, but not the way DOC is going about it, at present.

There is going to be more of the same, re loss of hunting.

The GAC has a statutory role over herds of special interest, otherwise its an advisory role to the minister for everything else, (I think)

Remains to be seen what they will do about issues they only give advise on. If the minister took notice of them,(and in fact the GAC spoke out for hunters)  then I'd argue that the GAC is the hunters representative.
and happily give $4  $$  to it.

I think there is a difference between an organization like Hitop refers to, and the NZDA. The DA is really a group of clubs.
Not sure they are best placed to be advocates for hunters, even if it is one of their aims.

An organization independent of the many hunting clubs, might be best way to go.
[/quote]
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #16 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 2:56am
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hairy wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:42am:
Isn't the GAC supposed to be doing that?  Managing herds and protecting hunters rights.


Yes, but they are established by legislation, so confined to doing what that allows. An independent advocacy organisation would be quite different.



In my view what we need is 'Forest and Bird or FMC for hunters'. They are only NGO's, but have been that successful that they now have rights enshrined in legislation, like making nomination for membership on the Conservation Authority. And as much as it pains me to say so, I can't help but conclude that in part their success is because the average member of those organisations is both more disciplined and intelligent than hunters.  Embarrassed  Maybe those who say that generally people get what they deserve have a point??

And to answer the original question, yes I would contribute to a body like that, and no I would not support hunting permits being tied to membership of it.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #17 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 3:42am
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I would love to see one body and one body alone representing hunters and hunting in this country.  I am more than ready to contribute to a party that is fighting in one corner only.   I do not belong to any one body and haven't done so for many a year and it concerns me greatly in this day and age.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #18 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 3:57am
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In thinking about it more, the GAC represents all hunting, recreational, guided, commercial, etc.

But can they lobby exclusively  for recreational hunting. some of theyre members are commercial etc.

currently NZDA are heavily represented on the GAC. But do they advocate effectively for rec hunters?
and do the majority of hunters (members or not)  want to be represented by NZDA

doesn't seem like it


  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #19 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 4:08am
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Whats the problem here?
Is there a belief out there that DOC are going to lock up all the public land so hunters cant hunt anymore?
Good luck controlling all the 'PESTS' out there if they do.
I feel that hunters are helping to control the numbers of 'game' animals in NZ and paying for permits doesn't excite me at all.

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #20 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 4:10am
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Depends what you want a single organization for.
If it is to promote a particular single view, my experience is that as soon as it does not do that you will be wanting to form yet another organization. Democracy can be a bitch, she doesn't always deliver what you want.

I can see this already with the GAC; because they are attempting to balance many interests they are finding it difficult to please anyone.

The best way still might be for the current diverse number of interest groups actively lobbying for what they think is best, because that at least mitigates the risk of a single organization promoting homogenous policy in an attempt to appease as many members as possible.







  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #21 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 4:21am
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Anyone know what's happened to Game and Forest Foundation? Seemed to me when they first arrived that they were more modern and politically savvy than NZDA.

And I also think that NZDA's intransigence on issues like 1080 seriously compromises its effectiveness. Means it probably doesn't get listened to an any matters in some quarters....(and those people are probably secretly pleased as a result!)
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #22 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 4:37am
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With the Haurangi's 1080 the HVDZDA and others i think were heavily involved with the Aorangi Forest trust and managed to get deer repellant on. Worked out cheaper for the 1080 crowed to put repellant on than fight it in court, maybe more need to get behind and fight for your area's like we did??

Hamish
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #23 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 4:59am
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TH , the NZDA is not a group of clubs , it is a national organisation with numerous local branches which are involved to greater or lesser amounts in hunter training , hunting, target shooting , politics affecting firearms and firearms owners , hunting , land access etc . Whether you belong or not , whether you approve or not , you benefit by their existence. The DA has a good political voice , and are listened to by by most politicians and have been for 75+ years .
If you want to sight in a rifle , and dont have access to private property , and less and less of us do, it is most likely you will do so on a NZDA range . Your public land permit from DOC is for hunting , not sighting in or load development etc.

A new national organisation that could   fairly represent all the different hunters in NZ and all their particular requirements , foibles , prejudices and ideas ? I don't think so.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #24 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 5:23am
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Flintlock wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 4:59am:
A new national organisation that could   fairly represent all the different hunters in NZ and all their particular requirements , foibles , prejudices and ideas ? I don't think so.


+1 it will never work. Trying to get hunters all heading in the same direction is like herding cats   Grin
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #25 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 5:38am
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I belong to NZDA even when out of country and will always pay my sub every year .
They do a bloody good job at our club.
But I agree with madness will be hard to get everyone going in same direction.
not sure what answer is but something needs to be done
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #26 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 7:37am
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well certain folks around these parts tried to get hunters to get behind them at the last election Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
to give the hunting/fishing community a better voice in the beehive...you lot can throw shit in Peter Dunns direction if you wish, but he IS trying to do something...now if Alan had got in that voice would have been twice as loud.
the fighting among ourselves is what gives the A.N.T.I.s strength   
the ban 1080 party divided things even more.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #27 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:07am
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7mm08Roks wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:52am:
What we do need though in a public forum is to be seen as 1 and not argue for 10-12 pages


Hunting isn't a cult.

Cant see a need for another national organisation. NZDA can do it on the issues where there is critical mass (eg WARO), and no organisation will succeed on issues where there isn't (like 1080).

Personally strongly opposed to compulsory funding of an advocacy organisation from permit fees. Needs to be voluntary.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #28 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:14am
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I don't think a lot of people realise how much NZDA does advocate for our hunting culture at present and has done for a long time. It was nzda branches that first set up organised Search and rescue groups. I haven't always greed with the NZDA official line, but no two people on this planet can agree all the time let alone a bunch of head strong hunting rural types. I am dam sure though, If all people who hunted in NZ were members of NZDA, then the politicians would listen a lot more and we could worry a lot less about our children's future rights to hunt and have access to our land. Land that used to be called Timberlands estate and was once part of regional forest parks is now controlled by private interest. We can no longer hunt this land that is still ours for free. We have to pay for a permit and can only hunt in the weekend. Its still our land as far as I can tell, the forest owners only bought the cutting rites. NZDA lobbied against this reduction in our ability to hunt our own land. Full hunter membership may have helped. Just my 2c worth but I say join NZDA today.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #29 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:35am
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Shooting clubs are supported by an overriding collective (colfo), which supports the rights of firearm owners. The club's all do their own thing, no two the same...they don't want to nor need to agree with each others disciplines, but are represented under the umbrella of colfo which supports their right to use firearms.

Could be an example of a working model where no one has to agree with anyone else, to be unified.

Kj
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #30 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:51am
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If I was going to pay money to an organisation I would be worried it would be dominated by the trophy brigade who seem far more organised and passionate that their meat hunting counterparts....  In saying that, if something isn't broke, why fix it?  Just thinking about it, since Xmas, I have been out about 6 times seriously to put something in the freezer (this doesn't count dragging weaners around), everytime I have shot something.  As soon as we have someone promoting hunting interests will we have regulation around taking animals, seasons, access.  At the moment I can do what I want and I like it that way... IMHO there are more animals around now than ever.  We have it pretty good.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #31 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 9:02am
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could possibly gain funding for legal battles etc for g,a,c or nzda or any other group by adding a small fee to ammo or camo clothing or rifles or some other consumable, 5cents or something small. or a fee taken by hunting retailers to be collected on behalf for a national fund, could be a ridiculous idea but adds to the discussion
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #32 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 9:18am
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hairy wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:51am:
At the moment I can do what I want and I like it that way... IMHO there are more animals around now than ever.  We have it pretty good.


There's plenty to be said for doing as you please.  It's what makes Kiwi hunting great. Probably as close as you'll get to freedom in the modern age.  That said I have a feeling DOC and those types are gunning for us and we need to stand together and do something.  I'm not one for over regulation but we need some clout. 

Plenty of us are hoping the Game Animal Council will resolve this on our behalf.  Isn't that what the Council was established to do????
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #33 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 9:29am
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My grandad and dad are members of the NZDA.  I'm 27 and my brother is 24, and all our mates, not one is a member. However we have introduced many new hunters to the sport, in fact I am doing it now. So while we aren't in the clubs we are still promoting the sport.

I would contribute to a fund similar toLegasea.  That way I can have a voice for hunting issues but sign my name and contribute money to issues I support it the most.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #34 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 9:35am
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I like my hunting unregulated and free from most forms of regulation.

I belong the HVNZDSA as I feel they do a lot for hunters around the country. I never go on any of their trips and I go to maybe two meetings a year. I like most of the blokes there and we share a common interest.

I'll continue to belong as a member as long as its not too expensive.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #35 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 11:26am
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It is one thing to have an idea , it is quite another thing to put it into operation. how do you see that happening in this case ?.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #36 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 11:43am
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Back to what Hi Top said, there is a problem right across NZ with all clubs, community  groups committees etc. Does not matter if its the local Rugby club, fishing or NZDA branch. There is an absence of younger people putting their hands up to help run the organizations. The bulk of the "workers" are over 50 and many cases much older than this, with very few if any younger people coming through. Who is going to continue these organizations in 20 years time? Do you really think there will be no need to try and hold back the politicians and DOC around access, wild animals and the right to own firearms in the future. Most of these guys have spent 1000's of hours of their own time trying to achieve the things that are important to us all around the outdoors and the animals we treasure. In many cases they are only still there because no one else is stepping up to run the rifle range, or arrange hunter training or whatever they feel is important. So its no surprise you think the clubs are full of old guys, they are. And dont say you are not getting value for money, memberships are in most cases around the cost of putting enough fuel in the vehicle to go for a weekend hunt. So why reinvent the wheel, join these clubs , promote the changes and activities that are important to you. If enough of you join and actively participate you can set the directions, and initiate change where necessary to meet new challenges.  Standing back, not belonging to any group and then moaning like hell about those who are overworked , and doing their best all voluntarily will achieve nothing.  AngryThere is no need to start a new organization, just join some of those that all ready exist, numbers do count when talking to the local politician etc, but more importantly get involved!.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #37 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 11:52am
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In the UK there is the British Association of Shooting and Conservation (BASC), which charges annual membership for those who want it. It defends shooting rights and lobbies at political level, as well as operating various shooting schemes which members have access to. Another major benefit is that membership provides the hunter with several million pounds of third party liability insurance cover and legal costs insurance. It's not mandatory, but the majority of UK shooters are members. Could something along these lines work in NZ?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #38 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:01pm
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J wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 11:52am:
In the UK there is the British Association of Shooting and Conservation (BASC), which charges annual membership for those who want it. It defends shooting rights and lobbies at political level, as well as operating various shooting schemes which members have access to. Another major benefit is that membership provides the hunter with several million pounds of third party liability insurance cover and legal costs insurance. It's not mandatory, but the majority of UK shooters are members. Could something along these lines work in NZ?

That is basically what the NZDA do including the insurance cover ,
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #39 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:38pm
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Quote:
TH , the NZDA is not a group of clubs , it is a national organisation with numerous local branches which are involved to greater or lesser amounts in hunter training , hunting, target shooting , politics affecting firearms and firearms owners , hunting , land access etc

Flintlock , my comment was about the DA branches appear to be a lot of relatively independent groups/branches ("clubs") that generally do their own thing. I did not mean the word literally.
There is no question NZDA do a lot for hunting.
But it is the political lobbying that is at issue here, isn't it?

from what I seen Natex leave the branches to do their own lobbying for regional issues.

when they had an Advocate, (Mathew Lark was good), they did give support on some issues.

But they sometimes don't seem to involved directly, of late. My observation may or may not be correct.

In the last WARO review, they didn't get stuck into it, even though it effected most of the country in some way. That review began months ago, but where were Natex, in it. And particularly the North Island in a big way
They appear to have stood back and let the GAC do it, but the GAC was working on the bigger picture (new WARO system), and not the "raid" that was going on, of existing Closed areas hunters had won a long time ago.

Those that think that hunting is great right now, and that there are no threats to hunting are naďve. Aside from what they actually did take away,  DOC attempted to allow WARO into major CLOSED areas of the North Island, and also took away planned closures in St James.
The problem is, many hunters now were not around to experience the impacts of WARO. It may look like its dying, but the Industry expect a revival in a couple of years.
I mention WARO because it has had (and can still does have the single biggest impact on Game populations in the country, ever.

I am not sure if there should be a separate organization, or not.

It seems to me that NZDA do not have the influence or standing with government, that the likes of F&B and Federated Mountain Clubs.
We need to ask ourselves, why?

And has been mentioned, the majority of young people do not belong to clubs, so while NZDA represents them, how do their numbers count?  Where are they when issues need support,. Tramping clubs have the same problem. its mostly the old members doing all the work

I assumed the GAC would do the advocating for hunters, but they may be constrained by their tied to the government. (ie they advise the Minister). if the minister doesn't listen, then what?

But the question seem to be, how do you get a united voice of ALL hunters, not just the minority that belong to clubs

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #40 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 9:22pm
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MADNESS wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 5:23am:
Flintlock wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 4:59am:
A new national organisation that could   fairly represent all the different hunters in NZ and all their particular requirements , foibles , prejudices and ideas ? I don't think so.


+1 it will never work. Trying to get hunters all heading in the same direction is like herding cats   Grin


Have to agree, look at how many fisherman there are and they/we still cant get shit sorted when it counts
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #41 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 10:00pm
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Id still support any private initiative to test something in court.  Smiley


  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #42 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 10:09pm
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I am finding the tone of the conversation a little disappointing.

I feel that if we give an inch now DOC and those of that mentality will take a mile.  I'll be really annoyed to hear the Ruahine's and Tararua's have been cleaned up by Choppers because hunters aren't doing f**k all about it except moan.

Dan
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #43 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 10:50pm
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MADNESS wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 5:23am:
+1 it will never work. Trying to get hunters all heading in the same direction is like herding cats   Grin


I think it could work if we had a pig hunter in charge. We would probably need to exclude long range shooters and anyone who owns a Tikka T3 in 7mm08. We would probably need to rule out people who look or sound funny and most Labour voters would need to be refused entry. Smiley Apart from that I think we would end up with a committed intelligent team with one objective.

Oh yeah, foreigners could be a problem too. They are out.

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #44 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 12:24am
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Forest and Bird often operate on a 'campaign' basis - for example "stop the Hollyford road" or "stop long-lining" campaigns. Members/non-members can support campaigns they agree with, ignore those they don't. An approach like that might work for NZDA, and help engage non-members?
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #45 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 12:34am
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Oscar wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 12:24am:
Forest and Bird often operate on a 'campaign' basis - for example "stop the Hollyford road" or "stop long-lining" campaigns. Members/non-members can support campaigns they agree with, ignore those they don't. An approach like that might work for NZDA, and help engage non-members?


Yes it would be helpful. Thats what I thought the first post was about, just not NZDA.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #46 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 12:43am
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HiTop wrote on Jun 21st, 2015 at 11:57pm:
This will hopefully elicit some responses as we seem to be at quite a crossroads when it comes to hunters actually having effective representation that is "respected" by politicians and civil servants alike.
Hunters are generally good bastards but also absolute arseholes in many regards.  We are cheap, self centred, independent cats who refuse to be herded!  Some would wear that as a badge of honour but they will never contribute anything to seeing their sport supported and maintained.  That has got to change and soon!  Increasingly we are being marginalised because we are disparate and lack a common voice.
Our sport is not alone and it appears to be due to a rapidly ageing population and a disconnected younger age group who see no value in anything clubs offer.
Quite frankly I know many club officials and members are at their wits end trying to make sense of it and get some glue in place to hold it all together.
 
So, I ask you this:
Would you contribute to one organisation to represent your rights and views on national issues affecting hunters and hunting?

How much do you think you should contribute per year and would you want a say in how that organisation argues on your behalf?

Should access to hunting permits be restricted to only those who contribute to this organisation or should the cost of getting an annual permit(currently free) include the cost of belonging to that organisation?


In answer to your Questions:
1. Yes
2. If I use F&G as a comparison, less than $250. not if I had voted for representative, otherwise yes via usual channels.
3. No

cheers
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #47 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 2:15am
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PORKCHOP wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 10:50pm:
[quote author=7F73767C776161320 link=1434931063/24#24 date=1434950637]
Labour voters would need to be refused entry. Smiley



Don't vote Labour but Nationals environmental policies are a joke.  Some old slag from TV is our conservation minster. 

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #48 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 2:42am
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LOVETT wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 2:15am:
Don't vote Labour but Nationals environmental policies are a joke.  Some old slag from TV is our conservation minster. 

Dan


I see. So if they worked in television at some stage they must be useless at everything? Would you care to suggest a better minister of conservation from the list of MPs available?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #49 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 2:43am
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Flintlock wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:01pm:
J wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 11:52am:
In the UK there is the British Association of Shooting and Conservation (BASC), which charges annual membership for those who want it. It defends shooting rights and lobbies at political level, as well as operating various shooting schemes which members have access to. Another major benefit is that membership provides the hunter with several million pounds of third party liability insurance cover and legal costs insurance. It's not mandatory, but the majority of UK shooters are members. Could something along these lines work in NZ?

That is basically what the NZDA do including the insurance cover ,


Fair enough, but does NZDA also represent shooters and pig hunters? I only ask because the more people that are represented, the greater the lobbying power. Of course, it's only going to have an effect if we hunters are united and speak with one voice. Those who think it will always be OK, beware as the antis will gradually chip away and before you know it there are more and more limitations. Banning lead shot is just the start of it. I personally will always be happy to pay my annual subs for an organisation that represents hunters' rights.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #50 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 2:53am
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LOVETT wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 10:09pm:
I am finding the tone of the conversation a little disappointing.

I feel that if we give an inch now DOC and those of that mentality will take a mile.  I'll be really annoyed to hear the Ruahine's and Tararua's have been cleaned up by Choppers because hunters aren't doing f*ck all about it except moan.

Dan


I'm inclined to agree. Seems to me that DoC know that they don't need to take hunters seriously, as they never actually do anything other than grizzle. So imo a legal challenge would at least make DoC think before they did something like this again?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #51 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 3:04am
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I'd be happy to support and pay a fee to a group or association provided it was very clear what there role is and what there goals are. I personally believe the only group capable or having a chance at creating this "idea" is the NZDA as a collective not individual branches fighting local issues.

When I refer to the NZDA  I mean as one combined New Zealand branch please don't take offence as individual branches this whole post is pointed at having ONE NZDA for NZ. With different areas represented by local chapters or offices. But everyone belongs to the NZ branch not Otago or Hutt Valley. That's just where you attend you meetings etc..

Firstly they have a base of  4000 members at a guess it would be foolish to try move it away from that. What I believe needs to happen is a serious look at structure and the running of the NZDA from a national level with one of the main goals been to increase membership massively.

To do this the NZDA national office makes it very clear what there objectives are and goals within the future of hunting in this country and where they see there role in supporting the future of hunting. Once this is done they get guys involved that will make this happen they get input from a well balanced group of hunters young and old and  make a plan on how they achieve these goals and where they intend on heading. 

I'd love to see the NZDA  going strong making there views public and wide spread creating new interest amongst non members.  Raise money and employ a few key leaders at the top that become full time hunting advocates the lead the whole group towards future goals.  Make it cool to be a member don't look down at theses young guys coming through that may have only shoot a handful of deer. We need to united as ONE group to every move forward.

I also believe the management of hunting needs to be run by the group so the NZDA is this example.  All public land permits are run through the group and we become a self managed game hunting group. Where we look after the resource and manage it accordingly.  That doesn't mean we let animals get out of control or stop trophy or meat hunters accessing areas. It all about managing different areas to the goals created by the group so if the numbers were to high we inform members first and give them a go at pulling the number back if that didn't work we use a chopper.

The goal isn't more deer it's having some control over our future because as it stands our voice currently means farrk all in the real world as far as I can see when 1 or 2 WARO company's have more say than 1000s of foot hunters.  It should be the other way round.

I guess the question is how do we do this financially it will cost money to run this group and I'd imagine quite a lot of money. Why has hunting in NZ  never adopted the business model of duck shooting or trout fishing both of those are introduced species yet they are run managed and protected by those that enjoy it most. Everyone buys a license without complaining they work to protect there future.

Why can't we apply the same model to public land hunting in NZ once a year all hunters buy big game license to hunt NZ and different areas have different rules. I would  happily pay for a hunting license once a year if it meant we had a say on the future of our sport. Nothing comes for free in this world and if we want DOC to listen and respect us as a group we need to sort our shit out as hunters regardless if your a bow hunter, bush hunter, long ranger or dirty pig hunter were all here because we love HUNTING full stop.  Isnt it time DOC started listening rather than dictating our future?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #52 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 4:32am
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If you belong to an NZDA branch , you also belong to the NZDA as a whole . If you dont like the way things are run then attend local meetings , get on the committee , put forward remits to the AGM , put your self up for the National Executive ( NATEX) be prepared to spend considerable amounts of time and money doing this.

The cost of running hunts isnt small , look at the Woodhill Fallow Management group  , there are representatives of the local land owners, North Ak NZDA , South Ak NZDA , whoever is running the forest at the time , DOC, Local Iwi etc . they do a good job in a very small area but you can see that every man and his dog wants a say , this would be complicated greatly and would have different management strategies and problems in DOC controlled forests  , in fact I think you would find that DOC already think they are doing a good job and wouldn't welcome any outside advise or intrusion , and any way it would take an act of Parliament to get this group going .
If you can really see this group going why don't you write up a proposal with structure , committee, fees, powers , rules etc , a lot can be found here http://www.societies.govt.nz/cms/incorporated-societies , I have been in at the start of two clubs and honestly it isn't anything I'd want to have anything to do with ever again .

I think the best thing is to join the NZDA and get stuck in and try to change it from within .
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #53 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 4:44am
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Anyone who doesn't understand that hunting on the public
estate is under threat needs to get out from under the rock they live under. What do you think pest free nz is about. ITS
way past time that everyone on this site supports hi tops
post as its THE ONLY WAY forward. IF we don't stand up to
gether we are gone in the next 20/25 yrs.Democrasy is a
numbers game. Forest/bird,doc,trampers,anti guns,peta ect
ect will take hunters apart.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #54 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 4:53am
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If the GAC was able to do more than just "advise the minister", like take legal action etc, then I'd say they are the ones that have the mandate to represent hunters views.
But if the Ministers took heed of what they say, then a another lobby group, (or COLFO, NZDA) wouldn't be needed

That's unlikely, especially if there isn't a hunter friendly  in the job
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #55 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 5:36am
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chilly wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 4:44am:
IF we don't stand up to
gether we are gone in the next 20/25 yrs.Democrasy is a
numbers game.


I am nearly 48. I am definitely gone in the next 25 years.

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #56 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 5:39am
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Ohh boy, fireproof overalls on, and here goes nothing.. I am trying to choose my words carefully, so be gentle:

* You opened by saying many hunters are cheap... so if that's a fair call, surely a voluntary system would work better...?  Who want's to pay?
Why not some kind of costless way of making their point of view count?  It needs to be numbers based, that seems to be what counts.

* And you said lazy - I always thought you'd get 100% voter turnout if people could vote with an App / by text message - would something similar work for hunters?  Participation without effort. I strongly believe that WOULD work. Teenagers can literally can build decent Apps for pocket money these days. Free on Android.

HiTop wrote on Jun 21st, 2015 at 11:57pm:
....it appears to be due to a rapidly ageing population and a disconnected younger age group who see no value in anything clubs offer.

* The above quote I totally agree with the thrust of, I see this too. It seems many Gen-Y (& onwards) people don't see inherent value in joining clubs. Not because they are "disconnected" though, because they are more connected in new ways...  
In addition the clubs losing support across many sports, I have heard several 'modern' hunters who are in touch with a lot of hunters, suggest that the NZDA is not in touch with the latest generation of hunters.... sorry if that offends you NZDA old-boys.  I realise some others will strongly advocate the opposite opinion.  To that end though - NZDA doesn't appear to have had the support it needed to act as a unified hunter's voice during recent issues.  I think that's almost part of the reason why a thread like this is relevant today?

* Your last one - In the end, hunters are selfish buggers too...
You need a solution which either thrives on that kind of behaviour, or prevents people screwing the system full stop.  Otherwise it cannot be trusted and wont work.
Example: I heard one hunter who shall remain nameless (who will likely read this, unfortunately) say they'd forged something like 18 ballot applications this year, personally, to better their chances I assume (limit 1 per person).  Sadly, that negatively effected everyone else they were talking to, but they didn't seem to realise that fact...
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #57 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 5:48am
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The NZDA is only a small part in the scheme of things> there are a hell of a lot of hunters out there that have no affiliation to any club nor organisation. They still want to and do hunt on public land. most would have no idea as to how much threat there is to our hunting freedom. The big question is how do we.. Yes we. get together (not necessarily under the NZDA umbrella) and protest our rights as hunters, and make ourselves heard and acknowledged. Twenty five years is a long time Porkchop. I am touching sixty so I will probably beat you in the race. Wink Wink
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #58 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 5:52am
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jakkos wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 5:48am:
The big question is how do we.. Yes we. get together (not necessarily under the NZDA umbrella) and protest our rights as hunters, and make ourselves heard and acknowledged.

Using the internet or an App.

Short version of my above post... hah!    Tongue
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #59 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 5:55am
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EASY, you can all make a start by completing this: (ITS FREE AND ONLY COSTS YOUR TIME)

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1431667913

you shouldn't be stuck for things to say but if you are, ctrl c and crtl v this:



What do you want this place to be like in 10 years’ time?

I/we want to see

-game animals managed for recreational hunting and not just a source of income for commercial WARO operators

-the quality of deer improved through selective harvesting of animals to improve trophy and meat hunting by recreational hunters.

-the huts and tracks that exist within the forest parks are maintained in a good condition to support recreational hunting and trampers.

-How do you think this could be achieved?

-Reinstate the restrictions on WARO concessions in the Tararua, Ruahine and Rimutaka ranges

-Restrict commercial WARO deer recovery to the winter months only with both the Ruahine and Tararua Forest parks (no WARO from 1 October to 30 may)

-Introduce restrictions on numbers of WARO concessions and introduce.

etc etc

  

Went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day but I couldn't find any.
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #60 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 6:00am
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There are groups like "Meetup" that do stuff like tramping , cycling, probably anything else. some of the tramping groups have more than a thousand members.

Not many tramping clubs would have that membership

daresay those same people probably would strongly object is some government policy didn't suit them.

So why not have a similar setup with hunters, some way of communicating and voicing opinions to govt departments or whoever.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #61 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 6:49am
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I vote for Tararua hunter Cheesy
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #62 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 6:58am
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I am vice pres of our local fish and game club. One can preach all sorts of things to club members and to others that come along to meetings in the hope of making an impact or some difference, The problem is that people do not take a lot of notice nor interest unless they can see a direct impact in them in the future. It can be hard to get them off there arses -even to sign a petition.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #63 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 7:07am
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I wonder if the smaller the effort to make a submission, the less the powers-that-be would take note of it? I've heard that rote submissions (ie a form letter with only the name at the bottom different on each) aren't taken much note of, apparently? Whereas if each member has had to cough up $100 or so, it counts more.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #64 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 9:05am
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Oscar wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 7:07am:
I wonder if the smaller the effort to make a submission, the less the powers-that-be would take note of it? I've heard that rote submissions (ie a form letter with only the name at the bottom different on each) aren't taken much note of, apparently? Whereas if each member has had to cough up $100 or so, it counts more.


Well constructed and coherent submissions that offer a remedy rather than just identify the problem are the ones that carry the most weight.

My experience is that historically NZDA have not been good at that. That doesn't mean that they don't now though, because I don't have recent experience.

Vociferous people who express their opposition through emotional thinking are often ineffective advocates. Hunting and anti 1080 advocates seem to too often fall into this trap.



  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #65 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 9:30pm
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Exactly right on that last point BC... A bit frustrating at times listening to arguement based on nothing but anger and frustration. Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #66 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 11:06pm
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BC wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 9:05am:
Oscar wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 7:07am:
I wonder if the smaller the effort to make a submission, the less the powers-that-be would take note of it? I've heard that rote submissions (ie a form letter with only the name at the bottom different on each) aren't taken much note of, apparently? Whereas if each member has had to cough up $100 or so, it counts more.


Well constructed and coherent submissions that offer a remedy rather than just identify the problem are the ones that carry the most weight.

My experience is that historically NZDA have not been good at that. That doesn't mean that they don't now though, because I don't have recent experience.

Vociferous people who express their opposition through emotional thinking are often ineffective advocates. Hunting and anti 1080 advocates seem to too often fall into this trap.






I agree that's how it works, but not entirely comfortable with it. 'Cos what it means is that the intelligent educated submitter gets listened to more (and often holds views consistent with those of 'the man') than the oke who has a legitimate, strongly held view but isn't able to articulate and argue them as well.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #67 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 11:30pm
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PORKCHOP wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 10:50pm:
MADNESS wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 5:23am:
+1 it will never work. Trying to get hunters all heading in the same direction is like herding cats   Grin


I think it could work if we had a pig hunter in charge. We would probably need to exclude long range shooters and anyone who owns a Tikka T3 in 7mm08. We would probably need to rule out people who look or sound funny and most Labour voters would need to be refused entry. Smiley Apart from that I think we would end up with a committed intelligent team with one objective.

Oh yeah, foreigners could be a problem too. They are out.



Very small group you have there porkchop  Grin
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #68 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 11:55pm
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:38pm:
Quote:
TH , the NZDA is not a group of clubs , it is a national organisation with numerous local branches which are involved to greater or lesser amounts in hunter training , hunting, target shooting , politics affecting firearms and firearms owners , hunting , land access etc

Flintlock , my comment was about the DA branches appear to be a lot of relatively independent groups/branches ("clubs") that generally do their own thing. I did not mean the word literally.
There is no question NZDA do a lot for hunting.
But it is the political lobbying that is at issue here, isn't it?

from what I seen Natex leave the branches to do their own lobbying for regional issues.

when they had an Advocate, (Mathew Lark was good), they did give support on some issues.

But they sometimes don't seem to involved directly, of late. My observation may or may not be correct.

In the last WARO review, they didn't get stuck into it, even though it effected most of the country in some way. That review began months ago, but where were Natex, in it. And particularly the North Island in a big way
They appear to have stood back and let the GAC do it, but the GAC was working on the bigger picture (new WARO system), and not the "raid" that was going on, of existing Closed areas hunters had won a long time ago.

Those that think that hunting is great right now, and that there are no threats to hunting are naďve. Aside from what they actually did take away,  DOC attempted to allow WARO into major CLOSED areas of the North Island, and also took away planned closures in St James.
The problem is, many hunters now were not around to experience the impacts of WARO. It may look like its dying, but the Industry expect a revival in a couple of years.
I mention WARO because it has had (and can still does have the single biggest impact on Game populations in the country, ever.

I am not sure if there should be a separate organization, or not.

It seems to me that NZDA do not have the influence or standing with government, that the likes of F&B and Federated Mountain Clubs.
We need to ask ourselves, why?

And has been mentioned, the majority of young people do not belong to clubs, so while NZDA represents them, how do their numbers count?  Where are they when issues need support,. Tramping clubs have the same problem. its mostly the old members doing all the work

I assumed the GAC would do the advocating for hunters, but they may be constrained by their tied to the government. (ie they advise the Minister). if the minister doesn't listen, then what?

But the question seem to be, how do you get a united voice of ALL hunters, not just the minority that belong to clubs



+1 Smiley
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #69 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 12:48am
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Max wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 11:06pm:
BC wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 9:05am:
Oscar wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 7:07am:
I wonder if the smaller the effort to make a submission, the less the powers-that-be would take note of it? I've heard that rote submissions (ie a form letter with only the name at the bottom different on each) aren't taken much note of, apparently? Whereas if each member has had to cough up $100 or so, it counts more.


Well constructed and coherent submissions that offer a remedy rather than just identify the problem are the ones that carry the most weight.

My experience is that historically NZDA have not been good at that. That doesn't mean that they don't now though, because I don't have recent experience.

Vociferous people who express their opposition through emotional thinking are often ineffective advocates. Hunting and anti 1080 advocates seem to too often fall into this trap.






I agree that's how it works, but not entirely comfortable with it. 'Cos what it means is that the intelligent educated submitter gets listened to more (and often holds views consistent with those of 'the man') than the oke who has a legitimate, strongly held view but isn't able to articulate and argue them as well.


Yes. And that is why for hunting it's important to have a well organised and resorced organisation to promote the views of the less articulate. This is what I expect from NZDA and other representative groups.

Of course, the organisation also needs to be astute at deciphering the intent and meaning of what what people are saying, and adopting policy from it.

Unfortunately, some hunter's views are created through a lot of bad luck when thinking, and it results in flawed policy Smiley , albeit that the same happens in most public policy development.

The dilemma for organisations is balancing the democratic process of policy development against the need to protect stakeholders from the consequences of their own flawed thinking. Many would argue that NZDA stumbled at this when they adopted their current policy on 1080. That is, they failed to protect the members from themselves Smiley
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #70 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 1:21am
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While not everyone has smart phones, uses aps or regularly checks the net, why not use allready established groups 

I.e. NZBGH on facebook, last time I counted they had over 72,000 followers? Sure some of this is overseas, but there is a great voice allready who can reach a wide amount of socially connected people.

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #71 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 1:33am
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The NZDA Facebook page was going really well there for a while - a new photo each day, and they have access to better photos than just about anyone, with the entries to competitions and their archives. They had some fantastic history ones from the heyday of wapiti hunting, for example.

But since August 4 last year - nothing
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #72 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 2:05am
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Oscar wrote on Jun 23rd, 2015 at 7:07am:
I wonder if the smaller the effort to make a submission, the less the powers-that-be would take note of it? I've heard that rote submissions (ie a form letter with only the name at the bottom different on each) aren't taken much note of, apparently? Whereas if each member has had to cough up $100 or so, it counts more.


IME with the doc submission process from when I was working there they generally take the route of whichever achieves the doc objective.

In one I was involved with around a marine reservse they used school kids submissions sent in as a class project and cut out forms from conservation group newsletters to 'show' that the vast majority of submissions were for the reserve despite a smaller number of well reasoned submissions the other way because that's what they wanted.  and vice versa if that suits the managers agendas.

There have also been time though they have been blindsided by both numbers and quality of submissions going against them.  The 'deer plan' in the late 90's was one I had something to do with and although I haven't ever been involved I believe the tahr plan is another.  the wild horses is another (although from a different angle) where what doc wanted and expected to be able to claim public support for via the submission process didn't work out.

So if there is both volume and quality of submissions especially if there is a bit of knowing the right people it cn make a difference.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #73 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 2:09am
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bullerexpress wrote on Jun 24th, 2015 at 2:05am:
So if there is both volume and quality of submissions especially if there is a bit of knowing the right people it cn make a difference. 


Which may explain why this round of WARO concession reviews was kept behind closed doors - especially with Peter Dunne in place as the responsible Minister.

Which is another thing to take heed of - in 3 years time we may well have a Labour/Greens pair of Conservation Ministers. Id see that as a risk to delaying action.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #74 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 3:01am
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go to the doc website, bring up get involved= have your say. you will find a reference,[HOW WE CONSULT].
consultation policy.Honestly,you need to read this shit.
Then I found consultation guideline, a doc pdf that does
ya f'n head in.IT constituits fraud really.they'v got diagrams on how they consult so they can get there predetermined answer.Honestly I felt depressed reading it.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #75 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 3:45am
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bushwanderer wrote on Jun 24th, 2015 at 1:21am:
While not everyone has smart phones, uses aps or regularly checks the net, why not use allready established groups 

I.e. NZBGH on facebook, last time I counted they had over 72,000 followers? Sure some of this is overseas, but there is a great voice allready who can reach a wide amount of socially connected people.



Yeah - see anyone can get included that way. You don't have to have a Bachelor degree to get your opinion heard.
Newspapers report on FB page's actions these days too.  I am not sure NZBGH is the right avenue, but something using a technology solution is the obvious answer.

To an earlier question about something I wrote, my reference to NZDA was because they are the incumbent in this area - they have been representing hunter views historically. They seem well organised, but lack the support of numbers.

Whoever does it, we need a modern solution which gets support from the masses.  Make it easy to use, interesting/fun to be a part of, and give feedback to users. That's the basic recipe.

I think weight of numbers is important in this space.
That's (basically) the way our political systems work.
For example, I suggest the political opinion is more swayed by 250,000 names on paper > 75,000 unorganised people > a very well organised 10,000
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #76 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 3:59am
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Maybe so, Battson. But historic evidence shows that what they call 'pro-forma' submissions generally get disregarded. So that's when the numbers game fails.

I'm strongly inclined to Bullerexpress' view that outfits (and not just DoC) simply use the submission process to support their predetermined view when it suits, and do the reverse when it doesn't. And the only successful exceptions are when they get completely blindsided by huge numbers, and/or clever bastards.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #77 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:20am
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Well, actually I am not talking about submissions, by that stage the initiator may have already made their mind up...

...It's very expensive to go into that kind of process, and going in without anticipating a predetermined outcome would not be good management in many circumstances. So of course when things don't go their way, they manage the situation!

I am talking about a voice on issues in the first place. Somewhere to start the processes rolling in the beginning. If 250,000 people liked a FB page calling for a ban on heli-hunting, or the fiorland monorail, or whatever - the MPs need to at least acknowledge the situation. It probably makes the news.

Individual and NZDA submissions in a small hunting-related process, already in-motion, are not news. Far, far from it.   We only just got coverage during the really big push against AATH, and not because of "well-written submissions". God knows how long we spent writing submissions... drumming up support, etc. etc.

Understand how the organisations work would give a perspective on the best times to influence the process.

We want to be the ones creating the change, initiating it; not reacting to other people's changes... for that we need leadership and a common voice:
HiTop wrote on Jun 21st, 2015 at 11:57pm:
This will hopefully elicit some responses as we seem to be at quite a crossroads when it comes to hunters actually having effective representation that is "respected" by politicians and civil servants alike.

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #78 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:28am
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6600ish members on this site
100 odd are on line at this time
could that not be a starting place?????
add the "other pup" into mix and numbers jump
say you had 10,000 people and managed to get 5000 to place vote in poll, so say 3000 agree with view that you want to push...any savy pollie will say 7000 either dont care or are against, you are faaarked before you start.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #79 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:33am
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Micky Duck wrote on Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:28am:
6600ish members on this site
100 odd are on line at this time
could that not be a starting place?????
add the "other pup" into mix and numbers jump
say you had 10,000 people and managed to get 5000 to place vote in poll, so say 3000 agree with view that you want to push...any savy pollie will say 7000 either dont care or are against, you are faaarked before you start.

Correct.

If hunters can't agree in the first place - then there will be no action - and that is the right way for Politicians to behave.

The AATH issue would almost certainly have gotten hundreds of thousands of people engaged enough to express an opinion against it. But nobody was able to collate & present that information to the Politicians in a meaningful way.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #80 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:37am
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+1 mickey duck. Agreed.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #81 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:40am
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Good points Battson....

ISIS seem to have been successful at grabbing the headlines and attention of the public too...... Undecided
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #82 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:45am
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Quote:
6600ish members on this site
100 odd are on line at this time
could that not be a starting place?????

should be, but start o poll on an issue, and often, bugga all contribute

but an online type group probably is the way, but doubt hunters will contribute too much
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #83 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:53am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:45am:
Quote:
6600ish members on this site
100 odd are on line at this time
could that not be a starting place?????

should be, but start o poll on an issue, and often, bugga all contribute

but an online type group probably is the way, but doubt hunters will contribute too much


This is probably the near the heart of the problem.

If NZ hunters responded to threats to their sport the way USA hunters do, the demographic would be far better represented.

But for that scheme to work - we need to be forced to PAY for hunting like the Yanks do. That's how they get a response on issues, surveys and formal representation by the people the hunters are paying.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #84 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 5:12am
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Write to your MP's with your problems , if they get more than about 5 letters ( emails ) from different people on the same subject they take notice  , 500 they get twitchy .
Put your problem and your primary letter on this or other forums , get constructive criticism , and where necessary re write . Others who feel the same can also write to their, or the relevant ,MP , using the initial letter to create a similar but not identical letter , it is important not to copy these exactly.
I put in 5 different submissions ( 2 for clubs , 2 for other individuals and 1 for myself)  to the select committee on individual firearms registration , all were different but all told the same story . I got to talk to the committee for over 30 mins on my personal submission .

If you have difficulty composing letters there are probably many on this forum who will give you a hand .
Me too just doesnt cut it with the powers that be .
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #85 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 10:48am
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Seems to have run out of steam.  Lots of ideas, lots of frustration and dare I say it misinformation about our advocacy groups activities but its great to get an idea of what peoples perceptions and expectations are.  Oh and thanks for the one response (Nomads) that actually answered the questions  Smiley Smiley
I'll try to put up a brief summary from all the responses in the next couple of days.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #86 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 8:01pm
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[quote author=2B2C272B263E2A490 link=1434931063/0#0 date=1434931063]
 
So, I ask you this:
Would you contribute to one organisation to represent your rights and views on national issues affecting hunters and hunting?


Isn't this exactly what GAC is set up for? Out of all the the national groups/clubs/organisations, GAC potentially is going to have the most push out of all them. The GAC has a good mix of members that can voice our opinions/wants no matter what sort of big game hunting you do including trophy or meat hunting. If I had to pay money or a donation towards an organisation it would be to GAC, simply for the reasons above.

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #87 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 8:05pm
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In its current form it cannot perform those roles.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #88 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 8:17pm
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Flintlock wrote on Jun 24th, 2015 at 5:12am:
Write to your MP's with your problems , if they get more than about 5 letters ( emails ) from different people on the same subject they take notice  , 500 they get twitchy .
Put your problem and your primary letter on this or other forums , get constructive criticism , and where necessary re write . Others who feel the same can also write to their, or the relevant ,MP , using the initial letter to create a similar but not identical letter , it is important not to copy these exactly.
I put in 5 different submissions ( 2 for clubs , 2 for other individuals and 1 for myself)  to the select committee on individual firearms registration , all were different but all told the same story . I got to talk to the committee for over 30 mins on my personal submission .

If you have difficulty composing letters there are probably many on this forum who will give you a hand .
Me too just doesnt cut it with the powers that be .


That is dead right.  In a oompletley different sphere I am currently seeing jusr how effective a few pissed off people lobbying MP directly via both letters and direct visits to their offices can be. To the point of holding up legislation going through parliament.

  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #89 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 8:23pm
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Oscar wrote on Jun 24th, 2015 at 1:33am:
The NZDA Facebook page was going really well there for a while - a new photo each day, and they have access to better photos than just about anyone, with the entries to competitions and their archives. They had some fantastic history ones from the heyday of wapiti hunting, for example.

But since August 4 last year - nothing



Possibly the same with audited accounts. Embarrassed
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #90 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 9:43pm
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There are legitimate reasons for both the situations described above I understand...... Undecided Undecided
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #91 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 11:19pm
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HiTop wrote on Jun 24th, 2015 at 10:48am:
Oh and thanks for the one response (Nomads) that actually answered the questions  Smiley Smiley

I detect a hint of sarcasm...   Smiley

To be fair, the three questions were almost asking if New Zealanders are willing to pay for the right to hunt, in return for some political representation.

Politely, I hope you weren't expecting a resounding yes?    Huh
  
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Reply #92 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 11:27pm
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No, just disbelief that one person actually did what I asked.  Herding cats is an understatement Grin Grin Grin

Re-read the questions, I most certainly did ask if hunters were prepared to fund the maintenance of their sport.  I was not hoping for any particular result just indication of what would be the most desirable option to achieve that.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #93 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 12:16am
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HiTop wrote on Jun 21st, 2015 at 11:57pm:
This will hopefully elicit some responses as we seem to be at quite a crossroads when it comes to hunters actually having effective representation that is "respected" by politicians and civil servants alike.
Hunters are generally good bastards but also absolute arseholes in many regards.  We are cheap, self centred, independent cats who refuse to be herded!  Some would wear that as a badge of honour but they will never contribute anything to seeing their sport supported and maintained.  That has got to change and soon!  Increasingly we are being marginalised because we are disparate and lack a common voice.
Our sport is not alone and it appears to be due to a rapidly ageing population and a disconnected younger age group who see no value in anything clubs offer.
Quite frankly I know many club officials and members are at their wits end trying to make sense of it and get some glue in place to hold it all together.
 
So, I ask you this:
Would you contribute to one organisation to represent your rights and views on national issues affecting hunters and hunting?

How much do you think you should contribute per year and would you want a say in how that organisation argues on your behalf?

Should access to hunting permits be restricted to only those who contribute to this organisation or should the cost of getting an annual permit(currently free) include the cost of belonging to that organisation?


meeooow,
oopps posted elsewhere;never good at following instructions.


#1
"I'm happy to donate to any challenge and will encourage my branch to make a substantial donation.

We have a lot of members at our Branch of NZDA, who take no part with activities, but are members in the hope that the NZDA will defend theirs and other hunters rights.

I hope national office will support and co-ordinate support for your good work TH. A BIG thank you for bringing it to our attention."


#2
How much? If I donated $5 per and the 4000 members did as well its only 20k, not much fight in that!

#3
Contribute for permits, not sure.  I saw a letter from a pig hunting group who are talking to Tuhoe about Te Urewera they mentioned members only permits. That doesn't site well with me. A step closer to blocks and privatisation. Written I think by an ex natex member.

Smiley
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #94 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 12:41am
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Thanks  Smiley
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #95 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 1:06am
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HiTop wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 12:41am:
Thanks  Smiley


Max wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 2:56am:
Yes, but they are established by legislation, so confined to doing what that allows. An independent advocacy organisation would be quite different.



In my view what we need is 'Forest and Bird or FMC for hunters'. They are only NGO's, but have been that successful that they now have rights enshrined in legislation, like making nomination for membership on the Conservation Authority. And as much as it pains me to say so, I can't help but conclude that in part their success is because the average member of those organisations is both more disciplined and intelligent than hunters.  Embarrassed  Maybe those who say that generally people get what they deserve have a point??

And to answer the original question, yes I would contribute to a body like that, and no I would not support hunting permits being tied to membership of it.


That go for me too, HiTop ?  Wink
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #96 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 1:28am
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Oscar wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:07am:
Cant see a need for another national organisation. NZDA can do it on the issues where there is critical mass (eg WARO), and no organisation will succeed on issues where there isn't (like 1080).

Personally strongly opposed to compulsory funding of an advocacy organisation from permit fees. Needs to be voluntary.


Doesn't that answer the questions?  Huh
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #97 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 4:33am
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Max wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 1:06am:
HiTop wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 12:41am:
Thanks  Smiley


Max wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 2:56am:
Yes, but they are established by legislation, so confined to doing what that allows. An independent advocacy organisation would be quite different.



In my view what we need is 'Forest and Bird or FMC for hunters'. They are only NGO's, but have been that successful that they now have rights enshrined in legislation, like making nomination for membership on the Conservation Authority. And as much as it pains me to say so, I can't help but conclude that in part their success is because the average member of those organisations is both more disciplined and intelligent than hunters.  Embarrassed  Maybe those who say that generally people get what they deserve have a point??

And to answer the original question, yes I would contribute to a body like that, and no I would not support hunting permits being tied to membership of it.


That go for me too, HiTop ?  Wink

Cheers Max
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #98 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 4:41am
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Oscar wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 1:28am:
Oscar wrote on Jun 22nd, 2015 at 8:07am:
Cant see a need for another national organisation. NZDA can do it on the issues where there is critical mass (eg WARO), and no organisation will succeed on issues where there isn't (like 1080).

Personally strongly opposed to compulsory funding of an advocacy organisation from permit fees. Needs to be voluntary.


Doesn't that answer the questions?  Huh


If you want to be that vague I guess.
So you will continue to support NZDA as the organisation at what ever cost that is through your membership?

You haven't offered an amount you'd be willing to contribute so I guess your membership fee is it?

No charge for permits to an advocacy group.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #99 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 5:07am
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Max wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 1:06am:
[quote author=012D344C0 link=1434931063/16#16 date=1434941797]

SNIP
In my view what we need is 'Forest and Bird or FMC for hunters'. They are only NGO's, but have been that successful that they now have rights enshrined in legislation, like making nomination for membership on the Conservation Authority. And as much as it pains me to say so, I can't help but conclude that in part their success is because the average member of those organisations is both more disciplined and intelligent than hunters.  Embarrassed  Maybe those who say that generally people get what they deserve have a point??


The seat at the CA indicates the failure of the conservation act not NZDA or other stakeholder groups.  To be on a conservation board you cannot "hold views contrary to the minister" despite that term not being in the act!  The inclusion of one member recommended by FMC was lip service to recreation, hunters could have representation via that member but it would be incredibly weak.  The GAC is a far better vehicle for our views but support through FMC would be very helpful to all recreational users.
As for FMC or F&B members being more disciplined or intelligent I'd beg to differ.  Some of the behaviour from F&B members in particular has been bordering on irrational and most certainly not disciplined.  On the other hand some of the work I have been privy to that NZDA has been involved in is eloquently formed, restrained and thought provoking.  Hunter groups do have disparate individuals who do make fools of themselves but that is anyone's right I guess and as long as they do not claim to represent us all we will have to put up with it.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #100 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 7:02am
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seems to be an opinion that NZDA head office, isn't representing hunters enough

they certainly never picked up the ball when the current WARO review began, last year. still haven't.

its effected north and south island hunting areas.

and the lack of consultation has been crimminal


perhaps its the people in the job?

cant really see why they arnt out there more, and being more successful

they are the only Hunting group the govt recognise as representing hunters

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #101 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 7:14am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 7:02am:
seems to be an opinion that NZDA head office, isn't representing hunters enough

they certainly never picked up the ball when the current WARO review began, last year. still haven't.

its effected north and south island hunting areas.

and the lack of consultation has been crimminal


perhaps its the people in the job?

cant really see why they arnt out there more, and being more successful

they are the only Hunting group the govt recognise as representing hunters



So we should be trying to find out why many existing hunters and especially all new hunters are not stampeding to join NZDA.

They have been the  most visible representative of hunting in NZ for a very long time.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #102 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 8:50am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 7:02am:
seems to be an opinion that NZDA head office, isn't representing hunters enough

they certainly never picked up the ball when the current WARO review began, last year. still haven't.

its effected north and south island hunting areas.

and the lack of consultation has been crimminal


perhaps its the people in the job?

cant really see why they arnt out there more, and being more successful

they are the only Hunting group the govt recognise as representing hunters


There was no consultation process with anyone outside of the operators, how do you act when that occurs.  DoC are seriously out of line and don't worry there will be some serious efforts going in to who made the call to not consult and why.  However, appreciate there is no requirement to consult, they have carte - blanche under the WAC act.  It will be very interesting to see if the DG speaks at Wanaka and what he has to say.  Despite what he said at the FMC conference it appears his staff are on a totally different tangent.  That could be a serious problem too him and I'm sure he will be trying to figure out if he is being undermined or they are just incompetent!
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #103 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 8:56am
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that they wernt consulting is what I mean, Hitop.
the nzda heads should been onto it when the process began. at least making noise with the DG and/or Minister.  they have reps on the GAC so would have know it was happening..
even the local Branches here did

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #104 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:08am
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ICEMAN wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 7:14am:
So we should be trying to find out why many existing hunters and especially all new hunters are not stampeding to join NZDA.

They have been the  most visible representative of hunting in NZ for a very long time.


Its the question I was trying to ask.  However, it is not just NZDA its all sorts of clubs.  It appears less and less people want to be part of a club and most certainly no one wants to help run clubs.

I haven't summarised the responses yet but it seems that most people acknowledge NZDA as the organisation best representing hunters.  While there are detractors and those who refuse to become members for their own reasons it seems the majority wish to have NZDA continue to go into bat for them.

1) You can't run advocacy and campaigns without money.
2) How can you claim to represent 150,000 hunters when you have 6000 paid up members?
3) Apart from the office staff and advocate, NZDA is entirely volunteer governed and run.  Everyone does it to support hunters and our sport.  It is a huge commitment with significant loss of time and money by all involved.
4) Legislation is against hunters managing their sport.  GAC is a small step to rectifying that but we are up against a huge wall of wailing opposition with money to spend.
5) Every hunter benefits from NZDA members commitment, they don't ask for anything in return.

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #105 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:14am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 8:56am:
that they wernt consulting is what I mean, Hitop.
the nzda heads should been onto it when the process began. at least making noise with the DG and/or Minister.  they have reps on the GAC so would have know it was happening..
even the local Branches here did

GAC were working on a new regime.  They were blind sided and told it was a done deal.  We never heard a thing about the WARO permits and DoC staff never said a word.  They tried to avoid any possible involvement of recreational hunters on every level.  If NZDA dropped the ball it was because the local branches who did know something failed to get NATEX members aware of what was going on.  The advocate would have been all over it if they knew.  Why they didn't know I can't say, it seems the "handshake with the community" was just a passing palm turning into a "bird" behind every hunters back Angry Angry 
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #106 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:50am
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NZDA have an advocate at the moment? Who is it?
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #107 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:58am
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HiTop wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:08am:
ICEMAN wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 7:14am:
So we should be trying to find out why many existing hunters and especially all new hunters are not stampeding to join NZDA.

They have been the  most visible representative of hunting in NZ for a very long time.


Its the question I was trying to ask.  However, it is not just NZDA its all sorts of clubs.  It appears less and less people want to be part of a club and most certainly no one wants to help run clubs.

I haven't summarised the responses yet but it seems that most people acknowledge NZDA as the organisation best representing hunters.  While there are detractors and those who refuse to become members for their own reasons it seems the majority wish to have NZDA continue to go into bat for them.

1) You can't run advocacy and campaigns without money.
2) How can you claim to represent 150,000 hunters when you have 6000 paid up members?
3) Apart from the office staff and advocate, NZDA is entirely volunteer governed and run.  Everyone does it to support hunters and our sport.  It is a huge commitment with significant loss of time and money by all involved.
4) Legislation is against hunters managing their sport.  GAC is a small step to rectifying that but we are up against a huge wall of wailing opposition with money to spend.
5) Every hunter benefits from NZDA members commitment, they don't ask for anything in return.



Ask FFNZ (Feds) how to get away with it. They have been exaggerating their membership ever since the compulsory levy was dropped.

But the current FFNZ structure and advocacy model is worth NZDA taking a look at. It works through professionals' researching and supporting the policy development and the elected's doing the advocacy. The NZDA could learn a bit from Feds.
The NZDA relying on a single hired "advocate" is just a bullshit approach. It in effect disempowers the executive.
But you are correct HiTop, NZDA need a better funding model and until they do their effectiveness will be impeded.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #108 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:07am
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I hope that the NZDA conference organisers record the speakers (video) at Wanaka this year. Put it on their face book page for the members to see.

The local branches/clubs have to drive this with their individual concerns, with
co-ordination and support from Natex. If each branch club voiced there concerns to one central collation point. (I guess this was where the likes of Hugh Barr and Mathew Lark were able to put it down on paper).
Doc and ministers complained that we were to aggressive with these guys, but have ignored us since.
The hard part is that some individual with thick skin needs to take the bull by the horns.  Smiley

Have these guys got it right?, their web page is informative. Not many branches in the south.
http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/branches
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #109 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:35am
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BC wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:58am:
Ask FFNZ (Feds) how to get away with it. They have been exaggerating their membership ever since the compulsory levy was dropped.

But the current FFNZ structure and advocacy model is worth NZDA taking a look at. It works through professionals' researching and supporting the policy development and the elected's doing the advocacy. The NZDA could learn a bit from Feds.
The NZDA relying on a single hired "advocate" is just a bullshit approach. It in effect disempowers the executive.
But you are correct HiTop, NZDA need a better funding model and until they do their effectiveness will be impeded.

You know how much it costs to be a Feds member.  NZDA could do exactly the same if they could extract the dollars and employ policy analysts and additional advocates.  With barely enough money to run the organisation you are continuously up against the wall.  I think also you have to look at the Feds as being quite different.  Whereas they can see the benefits in their pockets if they sway a government, hunters don't benefit financially and fail to put a value on the changes that are achieved.  It is really hard and getting harder by the day!  Not that anyone is going to quit but many will die with their boots on Sad
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #110 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:42am
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anchovy wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:07am:
I hope that the NZDA conference organisers record the speakers (video) at Wanaka this year. Put it on their face book page for the members to see.

The local branches/clubs have to drive this with their individual concerns, with
co-ordination and support from Natex. If each branch club voiced there concerns to one central collation point. (I guess this was where the likes of Hugh Barr and Mathew Lark were able to put it down on paper).
Doc and ministers complained that we were to aggressive with these guys, but have ignored us since.
The hard part is that some individual with thick skin needs to take the bull by the horns.  Smiley

Have these guys got it right?, their web page is informative. Not many branches in the south.
http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/branches


Have to wait and see.  I don't think you will see videos but I'm not sure.  I won't be there so can't record it for you. :[

Part of the discussions will centre around approach to negotiating with agencies etc.  Conflict doesn't seem to have got us far so I'm guessing there will be discussion over how to make progress in other ways.  I think we have a lot to offer government agencies and it is totally undervalued by them and unrecognised by us.  We are the only recognised group of outdoor recreationalists who can claim to actually have a measurable conservation benefit.  That should be worth a lot to DoC as they attempt to change the way things are done in conservation.  I'm all for spitting the dummy when required but realistically we are trying to find ways that provide win win's for both us and DoC.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #111 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:49am
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HiTop wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:35am:
BC wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:58am:
Ask FFNZ (Feds) how to get away with it. They have been exaggerating their membership ever since the compulsory levy was dropped.

But the current FFNZ structure and advocacy model is worth NZDA taking a look at. It works through professionals' researching and supporting the policy development and the elected's doing the advocacy. The NZDA could learn a bit from Feds.
The NZDA relying on a single hired "advocate" is just a bullshit approach. It in effect disempowers the executive.
But you are correct HiTop, NZDA need a better funding model and until they do their effectiveness will be impeded.

You know how much it costs to be a Feds member.  NZDA could do exactly the same if they could extract the dollars and employ policy analysts and additional advocates.  With barely enough money to run the organisation you are continuously up against the wall.  I think also you have to look at the Feds as being quite different.  Whereas they can see the benefits in their pockets if they sway a government, hunters don't benefit financially and fail to put a value on the changes that are achieved.  It is really hard and getting harder by the day!  Not that anyone is going to quit but many will die with their boots on Sad


Agree about the financial imperative for FFNZ membership, but that does not mean that NZDA can't learn from their advocacy model. With Feds, the staff research and develop the policy based on how the members direct, and the electeds do the advocacy. The NZDA seem to employ someone to do the advocacy (as I understand it) and don't invest in the policy development. To me, their hired (pop) gun advocacy lacks authenticy.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #112 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:59am
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Oscar wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:50am:
NZDA have an advocate at the moment? Who is it?


That's an interesting question. Shouldn't it be a simple answer, and every member should know it; "NATEX and the President".

As per my previous post, I believe that hiring an advocate is a flawed model that harms the identity of the organisation. Members should be able to identify with the advocacy of the President and Natex, not a staff member or contractor.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #113 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:14am
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BC wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:49am:
HiTop wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:35am:
BC wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:58am:
Ask FFNZ (Feds) how to get away with it. They have been exaggerating their membership ever since the compulsory levy was dropped.

But the current FFNZ structure and advocacy model is worth NZDA taking a look at. It works through professionals' researching and supporting the policy development and the elected's doing the advocacy. The NZDA could learn a bit from Feds.
The NZDA relying on a single hired "advocate" is just a bullshit approach. It in effect disempowers the executive.
But you are correct HiTop, NZDA need a better funding model and until they do their effectiveness will be impeded.

You know how much it costs to be a Feds member.  NZDA could do exactly the same if they could extract the dollars and employ policy analysts and additional advocates.  With barely enough money to run the organisation you are continuously up against the wall.  I think also you have to look at the Feds as being quite different.  Whereas they can see the benefits in their pockets if they sway a government, hunters don't benefit financially and fail to put a value on the changes that are achieved.  It is really hard and getting harder by the day!  Not that anyone is going to quit but many will die with their boots on Sad


Agree about the financial imperative for FFNZ membership, but that does not mean that NZDA can't learn from their advocacy model. With Feds, the staff research and develop the policy based on how the members direct, and the electeds do the advocacy. The NZDA seem to employ someone to do the advocacy (as I understand it) and don't invest in the policy development. To me, their hired (pop) gun advocacy lacks authenticy.


You are right, NZDA have a reactionary system as opposed to the proactive model of the feds.  Not to sound like a broken record but again it comes down to money and the ability to employ those staff.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #114 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 7:31pm
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Reply #115 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:11pm
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If hunters put their money up to the tune of over $2 million a year in donations over and above subscriptions like Forest and Bird members are, then you could expect to see some real action.
If you continue to support no hunting organization with at least a membership fee, then complain that those who are at huge personal cost to them selves ,their business's and families time wise, then the problem is just as much with you as the Dept of Conservation Angry
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #116 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:21pm
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ICEMAN wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 7:14am:
So we should be trying to find out why many existing hunters and especially all new hunters are not stampeding to join NZDA.

They have been the  most visible representative of hunting in NZ for a very long time.

I've said it already, but I've heard it said by a range of people and seen it myself - clubs don't have the same appeal with the latest generation.

Maybe the NZDA needs to refocus as an advocacy organisation, and less of a club?  I honestly don't know enough about it, but something needs to change.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #117 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:21pm
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Solid debate going on if you ask me.  Unfortunately there are only a handful of contributors.

Maybe every member here donate $10. That would be a good start.

I am really concerned about the bigger picture nut it seems many aren't.  To be honest I'd say 75% of so called hunters do so from a quad bike on a farm so they couldn't care less.

Dan

  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #118 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:30pm
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HiTop wrote on Jun 21st, 2015 at 11:57pm:
So, I ask you this:
Would you contribute to one organisation to represent your rights and views on national issues affecting hunters and hunting?

How much do you think you should contribute per year and would you want a say in how that organisation argues on your behalf?

Should access to hunting permits be restricted to only those who contribute to this organisation or should the cost of getting an annual permit(currently free) include the cost of belonging to that organisation?


Personally, I want to support an active (very active) advocacy group.

Why not join NZDA today you might ask?
I don't feel I would expect my membership fees would be >80% used on advocacy, if I joined NZDA today. Maybe I don't know enough about them, but that's a street that goes both ways.

I have no interest in going to hunting club events to spin yarns or join organised hunting-related events. Hunting is largely a solo pursuit for me (or with close friends).   

I have no interest in paying for hunting permits UNLESS the herd I am hunting is being as actively managed as the trout fishery or FWF Wapiti for instance.  If there was some advocacy wrapped up with that, so much the better...
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #119 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:44pm
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LOVETT wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:21pm:
Solid debate going on if you ask me.  Unfortunately there are only a handful of contributors.

Maybe every member here donate $10. That would be a good start.

I am really concerned about the bigger picture nut it seems many aren't.  To be honest I'd say 75% of so called hunters do so from a quad bike on a farm so they couldn't care less.

Dan



That's certainly part of the issue.  The number of guys who choose to wilderness hunt regularly is quite low.  I've talked to people in the last few days about the WARO thing and answer is "they don't really give a f**k cos its easier to kill deer on the back of a farm somewhere".

Not that I have a problem with farm hunting just I think doc land hunting is both important to have and takes you into better country requiring a higher skill base.

I am against paying for a permit as it only catches doc land hunters.  If there was real hunting management I wouldn't mind paying for a license like ducks or trout.  FWF has no problem getting by in so perhaps individual herd management license costs would work if hunters really saw a benefit.  I sometime wonder if hunter should try and take over the costs and operational management of more herds in that way (subject to doc setting bottomline biodiversity goals).  Tahr might be one?  IMO every step we put between the animals and direct doc control helps protect the hunting.  We are only ever on political decision away from hard times for a lot of hunter and hunting locations.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #120 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:01pm
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I'm going from this site to the NZDA North Canterbury Branch page.
That's a vote with my wallet that I can have some control over.
Any other members of that branch on here?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #121 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:16pm
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ashfishman wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:01pm:
I'm going from this site to the NZDA North Canterbury Branch page.
That's a vote with my wallet that I can have some control over.
Any other members of that branch on here?


Two new members now joining the NZDA Direct Branch as travelling distance to the closest regional branch is too great.
Sadly our personal involvement or contributions will be small at this stage, but hopefully our subscriptions will add to the fights that are now and those in the future.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #122 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:39pm
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Battson wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 9:30pm:
HiTop wrote on Jun 21st, 2015 at 11:57pm:
So, I ask you this:
Would you contribute to one organisation to represent your rights and views on national issues affecting hunters and hunting?

How much do you think you should contribute per year and would you want a say in how that organisation argues on your behalf?

Should access to hunting permits be restricted to only those who contribute to this organisation or should the cost of getting an annual permit(currently free) include the cost of belonging to that organisation?


Personally, I want to support an active (very active) advocacy group.

Why not join NZDA today you might ask?
I don't feel I would expect my membership fees would be >80% used on advocacy, if I joined NZDA today. Maybe I don't know enough about them, but that's a street that goes both ways.

I have no interest in going to hunting club events to spin yarns or join organised hunting-related events. Hunting is largely a solo pursuit for me (or with close friends).   

I have no interest in paying for hunting permits UNLESS the herd I am hunting is being as actively managed as the trout fishery or FWF Wapiti for instance.  If there was some advocacy wrapped up with that, so much the better...


Thanks Battson, I think your views are commonly held around the traps and I probably would have been exactly the same at your age.
80% of your subs can go to advocacy but you'd be looking at triple the annual cost at current membership.  If we could attract 50,000 members subs could probably stay the same and we'd have more like 2.5 million to start doing some serious work.  Even if 50,000 people contributed $20 each we would then have $1mil per annum to go into fighting funds.  I guess the question then becomes do we use NZDA's knowledge and experience to augment that and be the glue that holds it all together or do something else.
What if NZDA created a new type of member, "Right to Hunt" that cost $30 bucks a year, $10, or maybe even $5 would do it with smart online signups, for admin and the $20-25 going into the fighting fund that funds a policy and advocacy group overseen by NZDA NATEX.  Information online only with 3 month reports of activity and wide open communication channels through every medium currently available.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #123 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:52pm
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HiTop wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:39pm:
What if NZDA created a new type of member, "Right to Hunt" that cost $30 bucks a year, $10, or maybe even $5 would do it with smart online signups, for admin and the $20-25 going into the fighting fund that funds a policy and advocacy group overseen by NZDA NATEX.  Information online only with 3 month reports of activity and wide open communication channels through every medium currently available. 

Personally, I think having an option like that would help membership.

I guess about 15% of my hunting mates are in the NZDA, and are primarily there because they want advocacy, rather than wanting a club.

I think about 5% of them are there because they want to be in a club, spin yarns, get together, etc.

I would guess perhaps up to another 30% of the people I hunt with would consider joining for a small cost, just to get increased advocacy.   

If you were promoting that kind of membership in an emotive way, through very popular online channels like NZBGH, I think you would get a lot of interest.

BUT - after that, the best way to keep people interested year on year, would be to show-back all the things which that money has been used for, and the importance of advocacy. People respond really well to positive feedback, and respond well when presented with a problem that needs solving.

The beauty of an option like that is, you combine the reputation and history of the NZDA, with an increasingly modern take on advocacy, membership, and choice. It would be a strong combination, I think.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #124 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:07pm
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Battson wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:52pm:
The beauty of an option like that is, you combine the reputation and history of the NZDA, with an increasingly modern take on advocacy, membership, and choice. It would be a strong combination, I think.


It wouldn't be an earth shattering move initially either.  People could have time to see how it is working, get comfortable with it and then hopefully be happy to engage in a different manner.
It has some serious merit and I'd love to hear from others if they would support that initiative.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #125 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:13pm
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ICEMAN wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:16pm:
ashfishman wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:01pm:
I'm going from this site to the NZDA North Canterbury Branch page.
That's a vote with my wallet that I can have some control over.
Any other members of that branch on here?


Two new members now joining the NZDA Direct Branch as travelling distance to the closest regional branch is too great.
Sadly our personal involvement or contributions will be small at this stage, but hopefully our subscriptions will add to the fights that are now and those in the future.


Good on you guys, I joined Direct Branch, as an endowment member (buy once,cry once) 4-5 years ago.Not for my own advantage, but to help keep this hunter's advocate association going, for the benefit of future hunters.  I did not join when invited to, in my teens, as part of their credo was .. no poaching.  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #126 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:19pm
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That's great that you blokes are joining the nzda.

The tension between NZDA being a club or an advocacy organisation should be easily managed or resolved, and already partly is through their current structure.

I agree with HightTop. At the heart of this is funding, and the effective use of the funding. There is a close nexus between funding and structure. Also in the mix is club parochialism, and their fear of losing their automony.

When I was closely involved in the restructure of Feds, there appeared to be 2 funding options that would drive 2 options for structure. The first was that branches collect subscriptions, and pay a portion to "National Office" for advocacy and policy. Through this model the locus of power resided in the branches. The second option was that National Office collect subscriptions, and then fund branch activities on a needs basis. This centralised the locus of power and structure to a National/head office level.
Feds went for the centralised model, which met quite a bit of resistance, but in any event was implemented and in the round, it worked.
It became apparent through time though that the centralised model was too dis-empowering, and it was incrementally fine tuned to a very useful and effective model that now contains elements of both of the funding and structural approaches.
As I have said, nzda can learn from the Feds experience.

But one thing is certain, and that is that funding is critical and if hunters really want to protect their sport the subscription needs to be twice or more of what it is, and the proportion used between advocacy and club activities should be no less than 50/50 and in my view weighted as high as 70% to advocacy and policy and 30% to clubs and others.

A more complex subscription of club and national apportioning plus user pays for other activities might be worth considering too. 

There will be many other options too, and these might have all been considered by the nzda and their natex already. I don't know. Because I'm not involved.

I also have in my mind that a more formal link could be created between nzda and the GAC, where the nzda has a statutory role in linking the GAC with hunters. Or some sort of less formal accord between the 2. This might give nzda status in order to attract more members.

There's lots of thinking to do. But a useful place to start is more members and and a higher subscriptions that is used strategically and transparently.

Or biff nzda and start again.  I dunno.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #127 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:56pm
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BC wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:19pm:
That's great that you blokes are joining the nzda.

The tension between NZDA being a club or an advocacy organisation should be easily managed or resolved, and already partly is through their current structure.

I agree with HightTop. At the heart of this is funding, and the effective use of the funding. There is a close nexus between funding and structure. Also in the mix is club parochialism, and their fear of losing their automony.

When I was closely involved in the restructure of Feds, there appeared to be 2 funding options that would drive 2 options for structure. The first was that branches collect subscriptions, and pay a portion to "National Office" for advocacy and policy. Through this model the locus of power resided in the branches. The second option was that National Office collect subscriptions, and then fund branch activities on a needs basis. This centralised the locus of power and structure to a National/head office level.
Feds went for the centralised model, which met quite a bit of resistance, but in any event was implemented and in the round, it worked.
It became apparent through time though that the centralised model was too dis-empowering, and it was incrementally fine tuned to a very useful and effective model that now contains elements of both of the funding and structural approaches.
As I have said, nzda can learn from the Feds experience.

But one thing is certain, and that is that funding is critical and if hunters really want to protect their sport the subscription needs to be twice or more of what it is, and the proportion used between advocacy and club activities should be no less than 50/50 and in my view weighted as high as 70% to advocacy and policy and 30% to clubs and others.

A more complex subscription of club and national apportioning plus user pays for other activities might be worth considering too. 

There will be many other options too, and these might have all been considered by the nzda and their natex already. I don't know. Because I'm not involved.

I also have in my mind that a more formal link could be created between nzda and the GAC, where the nzda has a statutory role in linking the GAC with hunters. Or some sort of less formal accord between the 2. This might give nzda status in order to attract more members.

There's lots of thinking to do. But a useful place to start is more members and and a higher subscriptions that is used strategically and transparently.

Or biff nzda and start again.  I dunno.



Some sound reasoning in that.

Is there an easier method of joining and paying the subscription to NZDA rather than printing out the two page forms to fill out and post?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #128 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 12:13am
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HiTop wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:07pm:
Battson wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:52pm:
The beauty of an option like that is, you combine the reputation and history of the NZDA, with an increasingly modern take on advocacy, membership, and choice. It would be a strong combination, I think.


It wouldn't be an earth shattering move initially either.  People could have time to see how it is working, get comfortable with it and then hopefully be happy to engage in a different manner.
It has some serious merit and I'd love to hear from others if they would support that initiative.


+1
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #129 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 12:14am
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BC's post is impressive to read.  And very true.   NZDA has made a significant gain with the GAC, but I suspect their Natex is struggling a little.  It all gets back to money guys/gals  and it's good to read some of these posts.  DA got a significant share of my younger adulthood, and I still help at a local level.  What other group works significantly for NZ hunters?
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #130 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 1:57am
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LOVETT wrote on Jun 26th, 2015 at 12:13am:
HiTop wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:07pm:
Battson wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:52pm:
The beauty of an option like that is, you combine the reputation and history of the NZDA, with an increasingly modern take on advocacy, membership, and choice. It would be a strong combination, I think.


It wouldn't be an earth shattering move initially either.  People could have time to see how it is working, get comfortable with it and then hopefully be happy to engage in a different manner.
It has some serious merit and I'd love to hear from others if they would support that initiative.


+1



I agree - and it has been suggested before. Alongside Feds, like it or not another model is Forest and Bird. As well as professional policy people, I'd like to see NZDA with professional fundraisers. Passive income (ie investments, interest on bequests, life memberships and the like) should complement membership fees.

A couple of points that I'm pondering:

1) A system of 'supporting membership' or whatever you call it, will substitute for many current full memberships, not supplement. In other words, I would expect a lot of current full members to move to the lower cost option. The difference in cost shouldn't be great OR the differences in benefits should be large to offset this.

2) Operating on a campaigns basis (like F&B) seems a good option to me, as it also gauges support for specific issues

3) Having some familiarity with Feds and other similar groups in agriculture, the challenge will be the relationship between elected executive members and employed professionals. Will exec listen to professional advice? Do you only employ professionals who will toe the line?

And, I didn't get an answer earlier - who is the current NZDA advocate? Did they write the newsletter in the current Guns and Hunting mag? I couldn't see a by-line on it.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #131 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 2:57am
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Grandad wrote on Jun 26th, 2015 at 12:14am:
BC's post is impressive to read.  And very true.   NZDA has made a significant gain with the GAC, but I suspect their Natex is struggling a little.  It all gets back to money guys/gals  and it's good to read some of these posts.  DA got a significant share of my younger adulthood, and I still help at a local level.  What other group works significantly for NZ hunters?


Imagine  the funds that could be generated if all Hunting related sales, magazine subscriptions etc had a small trickle off (tax if you like) past on to arguably the largest established advocacy for hunting in NZ.


  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #132 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 3:16am
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ICEMAN wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:16pm:
ashfishman wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:01pm:
I'm going from this site to the NZDA North Canterbury Branch page.
That's a vote with my wallet that I can have some control over.
Any other members of that branch on here?


Two new members now joining the NZDA Direct Branch as travelling distance to the closest regional branch is too great.
Sadly our personal involvement or contributions will be small at this stage, but hopefully our subscriptions will add to the fights that are now and those in the future.


With the direct branch, Do you get a say in how they vote at conference and with NZDA in general.  I always felt that with direct branch you got to vote with Dianne's wishes.

Grin
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #133 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 3:24am
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Can I just say that those who have contributed here I am very impressed.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,
Daniel
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #134 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 4:05am
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Hi Top my answer to the three questions that you asked when you opened this thread is yes. It is good to see some common sense beginning to be put forward in the last couple of pages here.
It has been 78 lonely years since N.Z.D.A. was started by hunters to advocate for the selective management and recognition of wild game animals as a national treasure. The sole reason that I have paid annual subs. to them for more than 50 years has been to support their advocacy for something that I also consider to be important.
Our situation is a little like that of the Scottish Clans over the centuries, unless hunters can unite behind a good leader for a common cause we will continue to loose.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #135 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 4:09am
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ICEMAN wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 11:56pm:
Is there an easier method of joining and paying the subscription to NZDA rather than printing out the two page forms to fill out and post?


+1
(a big one)

If it's not easy and online, with internet banking, you won't get the subscriptions. 

Many people do this stuff on a whim, if they lose interest - say because they don't own a printer!!  (90% of hunters...) - then they won't come back for another try.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #136 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 4:15am
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some talk about f/b and I give money to them but we are
not members.They ring up when they have a campaign
that they need money for.Never had drop calls from nzda
like f/b do.Most of you guys come across as people who
want something for nothing if your coments are anything to go on.IF every member here gave a $100 dollars we could
get the ball rolling, instead of sitting round writing shit.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #137 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 4:31am
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th last post on the National NZDA Facebook page is 4 august 2014, quite a bit up until then, then zilch

that's not a money issue

the page just seems to have died. lots of posts from other branches, that still post stuff on their own sites.

the NZDA website isn't inspiring either, IMO.

Is the membership static, going up or down?
all clubs have an age problem, but it seems lotsa young people are starting hunting

seems that NZDA need to rethink how they do stuff.
what was Diannes role in all this?
is there a new CEO?


is it leadership, or lack of it, or lack of vision? or both

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #138 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:05am
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Tararua Hunter wrote on Jun 26th, 2015 at 4:31am:
th last post on the National NZDA Facebook page is 4 august 2014, quite a bit up until then, then zilch

that's not a money issue

the page just seems to have died. lots of posts from other branches, that still post stuff on their own sites.

the NZDA website isn't inspiring either, IMO.

Is the membership static, going up or down?
all clubs have an age problem, but it seems lotsa young people are starting hunting

seems that NZDA need to rethink how they do stuff.
what was Diannes role in all this?
is there a new CEO?


is it leadership, or lack of it, or lack of vision? or both




I believe both TH. The NZDA is living in the past, why don't young guys join? Because does not represent the younger generation. The view from the outside looking in and from previous advice or experience is the NZDA is a old boys club.

The younger guys are not into taking politics and crying about 1080 they just want to hunt and hang with there mates, it's not cool to be a member in there eyes and until the NZDA actually acknowledge this it will never change imo.

How do they change this is the question, I think the NZDA needs a restructure on a national level ie 20-40 year old hunters been represented at the top and leading the charge not past deer cullers from the 50s  (no offence meant) they need guys in touch with the hunters of 2015.

here's a story's I was told by a good friend about a very keen young hunter attending his first ever nzda meeting. He was very excited and had explained to the old boys at the back running the show about his first hunt. The young fulla was feeling great and loving the fact he was now a member of the nzda and explained to the old boys that he had caught his first boar with his first dog on the weekend. He then mentioned he loved to pig hunt and one day would love to shoot a deer. Once he had finished the old boys informed him we don't pig hunt round here we are deer hunters maybe you should look at joining a different club. Now my friend likes pig hunting he is also a very good deer stalker he was gutted for the young fulla shot down by those he looked up to. My mate left the meeting deciding the NZDA isn't what he had hoped it was and has never returned not sure about the young guy but fingers crossed he's still a hunter...




  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #139 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:18am
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ashfishman wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:01pm:
I'm going from this site to the NZDA North Canterbury Branch page.
That's a vote with my wallet that I can have some control over.
Any other members of that branch on here?
Cool
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #140 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:18am
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I think NZDA needs to lift its game. A lot. However, as a contrary view, I wouldn't expect a big lift in younger members though - I suspect there will be another excuse. But if we can at least get them to email, text or 'Like' on Facebook, it'll help.  Smiley It'll fall to the older generation to run the thing.

Older hunters have more money, more time, better connections, more experience, and better political nous.

That's not a new thing. I'd see the generation 35 and over as a key target. Maybe 40 and over. But the more younger ones the better too.

Case in point - the work here on WARO, and the work on but and track restoration via the Outdoor Recreation Fund. Or the aforementioned Federated Farmers and Forest & Bird.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #141 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:19am
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Quote:
not past deer cullers from the 50s

don't think theyre old "deer cullers", Topsy, they hated deer culling, killed to many deer Smiley
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #142 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:29am
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Oscar wrote on Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:18am:
I think NZDA needs to lift its game. A lot. However, as a contrary view, I wouldn't expect a big lift in younger members though - I suspect there will be another excuse. But if we can at least get them to email, text or 'Like' on Facebook, it'll help.  Smiley It'll fall to the older generation to run the thing.

Older hunters have more money, more time, better connections, more experience, and better political nous.

That's not a new thing. I'd see the generation 35 and over as a key target. Maybe 40 and over. But the more younger ones the better too.

Case in point - the work here on WARO, and the work on but and track restoration via the Outdoor Recreation Fund. Or the aforementioned Federated Farmers and Forest & Bird.


Oscar,  EVERY hunter should be a target what's the voting and drinking age 18? Will why wouldn't you target 18-35 year old hunters, because they are seen to offer the nzda very little?? They havent shot enough deer?? They use facebook so must be kids?? Come on the more votes/members the more power for the group I'm not saying have some new hunter running the nzda I'm saying his vote is just as important as yours he's just miss educated.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #143 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:47am
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Topsy wrote on Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:29am:
Oscar wrote on Jun 26th, 2015 at 5:18am:
I think NZDA needs to lift its game. A lot. However, as a contrary view, I wouldn't expect a big lift in younger members though - I suspect there will be another excuse. But if we can at least get them to email, text or 'Like' on Facebook, it'll help.  Smiley It'll fall to the older generation to run the thing.

Older hunters have more money, more time, better connections, more experience, and better political nous.

That's not a new thing. I'd see the generation 35 and over as a key target. Maybe 40 and over. But the more younger ones the better too.

Case in point - the work here on WARO, and the work on but and track restoration via the Outdoor Recreation Fund. Or the aforementioned Federated Farmers and Forest & Bird.


Oscar,  EVERY hunter should be a target what's the voting and drinking age 18? Will why wouldn't you target 18-35 year old hunters, because they are seen to offer the nzda very little?? They havent shot enough deer?? They use facebook so must be kids?? Come on the more votes/members the more power for the group I'm not saying have some new hunter running the nzda I'm saying his vote is just as important as yours he's just miss educated.


What are you talking about Topsy? Didn't say anything about not targeting the young. Just that more likely to get a response and input from those a bit older.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #144 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 6:21am
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Some good thoughts coming thru, I'd be happy to pay an advocacy fee to NZDA if they were to advocate for changing the status of Deer, Chammy & Tahr, from pest to a game animal, I reckon that should be there #1 priority, I'm sure a lot of non NZDA hunters would get on board with that & contribute, get that done first & you could then tackle DOC, waro etc

  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #145 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 6:30am
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chilly wrote on Jun 26th, 2015 at 4:15am:
some talk about f/b and I give money to them but we are
not members.They ring up when they have a campaign
that they need money for.Never had drop calls from nzda
like f/b do.


I'd like to see NZDA do something along those lines too
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #146 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 6:36am
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The NZDA facebook page has heaps of likes.

no reason why they cant have a friends type thingy, that are on an mailing list, receive information, whats new etc etc, notified of campaingns and can contribute money, or other support

just got get them to take the bait first. mailing lists are gold Smiley

the trick, is publishing info that gets them to the website or facebook or whatever. needs constant work to do that
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #147 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 7:31am
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I thought the GAC was set up to advocate/lobby for hunters interests? A hunting equivalent of fish and game?
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #148 - Jun 26th, 2015 at 10:27am
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Kaboomfa wrote on Jun 26th, 2015 at 7:31am:
I thought the GAC was set up to advocate/lobby for hunters interests? A hunting equivalent of fish and game?


Not really, it was part of the confidence and supply agreement with Peter Dunn to get his support.  National stalled on this as long as they could before establishing it belatedly in an effort to remain credible before the last election. Its terms of reference are also used to de-power it, one could say that they were dis indigenous in their commitment to the hunting voter.Angry

http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1112/United_Future_Confidence_and_Supply_Agree...



  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #149 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 1:03am
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Anchovy, I think your views on the GAC are unduly negative.  The Confidence & Supply agreement does/did all that we need.  Despite struggling with a lack of finance, and hopefully that will gradually improve, they are making progress.  The reports from their Chair and a couple of councillors make good reading.  And bearing in mind the tone of this thread, the majority of GAC's councilors are NZDA members.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #150 - Jun 29th, 2015 at 4:43am
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My views to the GAC were more towards the politicians that had a hand in setting it up, and there treatment of Peter Dunn and voting hunters at the time.  You obviously trust the pollies more than I.



  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #151 - Jun 29th, 2015 at 4:57am
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Hell no, I don't trust politicians.  But I do trust the Councillors.  I understand they are not even picking up their travel entitlement.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #152 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:06am
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At some point our words need to move to action.3676 people have read this thread.If $100 is to high we could make it $50, that would raise $183,000 more than enough
to Judical review waro,or start a campaign for hunters rights.Raise public awareness of hunters conservation role
trapping mustileds,blue duck protection,possum eradication,we do all that stuff.What about guys like me who have brought blocks of native to protect,and spent the last30 yrs trying to get rid of their shit.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #153 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:18am
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Well this is certainly a far more constructive thread than the one running concurrently about TB, 1080 and 'possums. That thread reflects some of the eclectic moaning subjective rubbish that us hunters have earned a warranted name for. No wonder we have trouble getting people to listen.

This thread though has shown a glimpse of what could be achieved if we actually pulled together, and threw our weight behind something useful like a re-energized nzda and supported the GAC rather than running it down.

I wonder if anyone from the nzda exec has had their attention drawn to what has been discussed here, because there are some damned good ideas and some good constructive criticism.

Building on the previous comments of Chilly's, I wonder if the nzda have ever considered establishing a Fighting Fund. It could be set up as a trust, with the trustees distributing the funds for nzda advocacy on a needs basis that is consistent with the settlor's intentions and trust deed. It would ensure that nzda would be a seriously big hitter on the really important issues. I would gladly donate to such a fund if I had confidence in the trustees and the terms of the trust deed.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #154 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 9:03am
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chilly wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:06am:
At some point our words need to move to action.3676 people have read this thread.If $100 is to high we could make it $50, that would raise $183,000 more than enough
to Judical review waro,or start a campaign for hunters rights.Raise public awareness of hunters conservation role
trapping mustileds,blue duck protection,possum eradication,we do all that stuff.What about guys like me who have brought blocks of native to protect,and spent the last30 yrs trying to get rid of their shit.



Good points....

But I have enjoyed this thread and so must have visited it over 20 times. So if its $50 a look then I'm in the hole big time!!  Wink
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #155 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 9:07am
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A trust would be a good start although I doubt it could attain charitable status.  Want to have a go at a trust deed?  It would need to be quite general in its detail and focus purely on providing funds for hunting related advocacy.  I am involved with another entity that was created for providing funds for public good work.  It could serve as a template if you are interested.

NZDA or anyone else could apply for funding to complete advocacy work in the interests of hunters.  I think you would be surprised how many private and public companies that benefit from hunters dollars would also stump up donations.
  
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #156 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 9:13am
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Max wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 9:03am:
chilly wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:06am:
At some point our words need to move to action.3676 people have read this thread.If $100 is to high we could make it $50, that would raise $183,000 more than enough
to Judical review waro,or start a campaign for hunters rights.Raise public awareness of hunters conservation role
trapping mustileds,blue duck protection,possum eradication,we do all that stuff.What about guys like me who have brought blocks of native to protect,and spent the last30 yrs trying to get rid of their shit.



Good points....

But I have enjoyed this thread and so must have visited it over 20 times. So if its $50 a look then I'm in the hole big time!!  Wink


We could have a swear jar on the Forum  Grin
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #157 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 9:14am
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chilly wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:06am:
At some point our words need to move to action.3676 people have read this thread.If $100 is to high we could make it $50, that would raise $183,000 more than enough
to Judical review waro,or start a campaign for hunters rights.Raise public awareness of hunters conservation role
trapping mustileds,blue duck protection,possum eradication,we do all that stuff.What about guys like me who have brought blocks of native to protect,and spent the last30 yrs trying to get rid of their shit.


Sorry Chilly, must correct your maths, some people have viewed the thread 10+ times each, you'll have to revise your expected cash take.   Sad

Just as Alan had to, after expectations being built up here, for United Future, last election.   Embarrassed

BC , I'd chuck in a few bob also for an articulate advocate, putting forward well reasoned, sensible proposals to protect the average NZ hunter's rights.
  

Get as close as you can, then get a bit closer.
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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #158 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 9:16am
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BC wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:18am:
Well this is certainly a far more constructive thread than the one running concurrently about TB, 1080 and 'possums. That thread reflects some of the eclectic moaning subjective rubbish that us hunters have earned a warranted name for. No wonder we have trouble getting people to listen.

This thread though has shown a glimpse of what could be achieved if we actually pulled together, and threw our weight behind something useful like a re-energized nzda and supported the GAC rather than running it down.

I wonder if anyone from the nzda exec has had their attention drawn to what has been discussed here, because there are some damned good ideas and some good constructive criticism.

Building on the previous comments of Chilly's, I wonder if the nzda have ever considered establishing a Fighting Fund. It could be set up as a trust, with the trustees distributing the funds for nzda advocacy on a needs basis that is consistent with the settlor's intentions and trust deed. It would ensure that nzda would be a seriously big hitter on the really important issues. I would gladly donate to such a fund if I had confidence in the trustees and the terms of the trust deed.


The issue would be that perhaps the TB/1080/possums thread accurately reflects the views of most/many NZDA members.
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #159 - Jun 30th, 2015 at 9:36am
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Oscar wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 9:16am:
BC wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 8:18am:
Well this is certainly a far more constructive thread than the one running concurrently about TB, 1080 and 'possums. That thread reflects some of the eclectic moaning subjective rubbish that us hunters have earned a warranted name for. No wonder we have trouble getting people to listen.

This thread though has shown a glimpse of what could be achieved if we actually pulled together, and threw our weight behind something useful like a re-energized nzda and supported the GAC rather than running it down.

I wonder if anyone from the nzda exec has had their attention drawn to what has been discussed here, because there are some damned good ideas and some good constructive criticism.

Building on the previous comments of Chilly's, I wonder if the nzda have ever considered establishing a Fighting Fund. It could be set up as a trust, with the trustees distributing the funds for nzda advocacy on a needs basis that is consistent with the settlor's intentions and trust deed. It would ensure that nzda would be a seriously big hitter on the really important issues. I would gladly donate to such a fund if I had confidence in the trustees and the terms of the trust deed.


The issue would be that perhaps the TB/1080/possums thread accurately reflects the views of most/many NZDA members.


My resignation is in the mail then.  Grin
  

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Re: Hunter representation
Reply #160 - Jul 1st, 2015 at 9:03pm
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Looks about normal, suggest someone gets off their arse and it all goes quiet..... never mind, good responses generally and I think that gives us quite a bit to think about going forward.

Cheers,
  
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