Fishnhunt New Zealands main hunting and Fishing Forum. millions of posts on fishing and hunting, dogs, 4x4 vehicles, outdoors and much more Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) Hunter representation (Read 53424 times)
KiwiKenEff
Just Joined
*
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 27
Location: Papakura
Joined: Aug 14th, 2015
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #165 - Aug 16th, 2015 at 11:57pm
Print Post  
There you go, HiTop. Open a can of worms and they'll start wriggling everywhere. Doc forget that you and I OWN the public conservancy, and pay their wages. They want everything gone that isn't "native". Our beloved leaders are more interested in commercial returns than the rights and freedoms of the populace. Recreational hunters, like recreational  fishers, are not worth any consideration, and NZDA don't seem to have the strength or the teeth to alter that. The thing is, with the best will in the world individually, we don't seem to have the cohesion to establish a strong collective. And if NZDA can't be effective how can we hope to create another force strong enough to be reckoned with. And I'm another who will not have my hunting tied to membership of any organisation. I already resent having to get a "permit" from DOC to hunt on MY land Angry

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sidney
Forum Font
*****
Online



Posts: 1849
Location: Christchurch
Joined: Oct 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #166 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 12:25am
Print Post  
You can't complain about lack of collective power to secure change in one breath, and then refuse to collectively act in the next and be consistent...

You also seem to have a strong opinion that you have choice, at the same time complaining about a lack of control...

ya probably need to make your mind up what ya really think..   Grin
  

"But thus I counsel you, my friends: Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful. They are people of a low sort and stock; the hangmen and the bloodhound look out of their faces. Mistrust all who talk much of their justice!"  Nietzsche
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tararua Hunter
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 6177
Location: Masterton
Joined: Mar 19th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #167 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 1:18am
Print Post  
Quote:
I have sourced a useful fighting fund trust precedent and have developed some thoughts about it. I think that it would need to have a close nexus with nzda to ensure that advocacy initiatives don't become too disparate.


BC, Lower North island hunters are going to be seeking funding soon, to legally challenge DOCs  removal of restrictions in WARO concessions.

The Liaison Group have engaged a barrister to do some initial correspondence with DOC, but it seems that a full judicial review will be needed to undo the flawed decisions made by DOC

the group believe DOC failed legally on 2 issues - contravene their management plan, and did not Notifiy the consent renewal as they should have (because the Effects were significant to hunters.
(in fct its been the biggest opening up of traditionally restricted areas for the last 20 years or so)

The is 14 or so NZDA branches and hunting clubs involved,

but interest from the general hunting population seem apathetic.
probably because DOC did the changes in secret and its difficult to tell where they were don't

so, regarding representation of hunters, it seems that something separate og NZDA national is need to deal with these sorts of issues.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KiwiKenEff
Just Joined
*
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 27
Location: Papakura
Joined: Aug 14th, 2015
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #168 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 2:00am
Print Post  
Hiya Sidney. The points I was trying to make are that if an organisation such as NZDA is not able to influence decisions, a new organisation is unlikely to do it. And if such an organisation existed I would be happy to join it and pay a sub or a "voluntary donation". But hunting permits should NOT be dependant on membership. And I resent having to get a DOC permit from a GO which is trying to do away with game animals that you and I may hunt while allowing WARO operators open slather. I am under no illusion that our freedom to hunt will last forever, and that breaks my heart - but so does the fact that if DOC have their way, there will be nothing TO hunt, apart from rabbits and rats. IF you can get a permit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sidney
Forum Font
*****
Online



Posts: 1849
Location: Christchurch
Joined: Oct 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #169 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 2:06am
Print Post  
Clearer Kiwi......   Smiley

I think that DOC will not be interested in linking Hunter Permit supply to Hunter Organisations, the last thing that DOC wants is hunter organisation by legal requirement.  It would force us to become united...

Rather just allow unregulated apathy to continue...
  

"But thus I counsel you, my friends: Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful. They are people of a low sort and stock; the hangmen and the bloodhound look out of their faces. Mistrust all who talk much of their justice!"  Nietzsche
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sidney
Forum Font
*****
Online



Posts: 1849
Location: Christchurch
Joined: Oct 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #170 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 2:30am
Print Post  
Just a general comment about accountability and process...

Its often said... (and has been in this thread) that the only winners in legal challenge are lawyers.... now not only is that not true all of the time, its an absolute guarantee that those disadvantaged by power and resource, will always remain disadvantaged without legal challenge, if the party with that power and resource chooses to not meet its legal obligations.

DOC have ideological positioning that they instinctively use to interpret their legal obligation.  They are also not shy of ignoring their legal obligations if they conflict with that ideology.

They have proven not to be concerned with the rights of the recreational public, in much of their function, and they also have little willingness to incorporate the opinion of the wider community into decision making.  The mandate of accessibility, public access and usage, the facilitation of a public resource belonging to the public - is most often treated as an idealogical exercise in passive exclusion, deliberate isolation and a constant focus on the restoration of the environment to a pre-european state..

How do you work with such a group?  Will that change?  Every sound bite I have ever heard emitting from them is soothing PR, but soon betrayed by what they do...

If they don't get their hand smacked, they won't change...  you just got to work out how you can smack it...
  

"But thus I counsel you, my friends: Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful. They are people of a low sort and stock; the hangmen and the bloodhound look out of their faces. Mistrust all who talk much of their justice!"  Nietzsche
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Weathered
Online Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
*****
Offline


Amor Fati

Posts: 5771
Location: Speargrass Flat
Joined: Nov 9th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #171 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 3:24am
Print Post  
I don't want to smack DoC's hand.  I want to hit it with a sledgehammer and break its dirty little paws.

But to start with I am open to suggestions starting with how to smack DoC's hand. 

While DoC routinely disenfranchise and ignore the public.  DoC also rely on a high degree of voluntary compliance from the public.
Any legal action is difficult and convoluted.

I know of one legal case against DoC being prosecuted and the preliminary opinion should be out in another 2 weeks.  I have been walking the chain for 10 years now.



  

"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.”
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sidney
Forum Font
*****
Online



Posts: 1849
Location: Christchurch
Joined: Oct 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #172 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 8:41am
Print Post  
Appreciate that weathered... I was probably being kinder than reality indicates... reverse hyperbole

I guess my point was, they won't listen until they have to...  I am not minimising your efforts which are and have been considerable, nor any others..

I just keep hearing a lot of reluctance to exert lawful accountability on DOC (not from those who know) but from some who think mistakenly they are interested in serving the community rather than there own ideology...

  

"But thus I counsel you, my friends: Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful. They are people of a low sort and stock; the hangmen and the bloodhound look out of their faces. Mistrust all who talk much of their justice!"  Nietzsche
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Weathered
Online Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
*****
Offline


Amor Fati

Posts: 5771
Location: Speargrass Flat
Joined: Nov 9th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #173 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 3:16pm
Print Post  
One issue is that DoC control the information selected from and status of the estate they control.

I guess less than 10% of NZ's population at anyone time are active enough to go into DoC estate.  Those who actually track DoC activity over any time frame of plus 5 years are significantly less.

We think exclusively.  The average Xuan, Billy or Babu living in the urban north doesn't care a toss about what happens on DoC land.

DoC land is independently monitored by only a very narrow section of the public. 

A broken bridge a potholed road a broken hospital or school gets attention fast.

DoC's land is a legislative controlled fiefdom divided amongst the conservators.

The only people who tilt at DoC are narrow focussed electorally marginal groups.  DoC know this and play it to their advantage.

Where to from here?
  

"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.”
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Raptor
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Falcons are Neat

Posts: 310
Location: Taranaki
Joined: Aug 11th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #174 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 5:19pm
Print Post  
Don't want to stir things up too much but Weathered you/we must stop calling it "DoC land" it isn't it is Public Conservation Land (PCL) and we must keep calling it that and correcting DOC every time they say it is theirs! It is ours!
Keep up the good fight many of us are with you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tararua Hunter
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 6177
Location: Masterton
Joined: Mar 19th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #175 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 6:45pm
Print Post  
most doc internal correspondence refer to PCL
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
shankspony
Ex Member


Re: Hunter representation
Reply #176 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 7:20pm
Print Post  
sidney wrote on Aug 17th, 2015 at 2:30am:
Just a general comment about accountability and process...

Its often said... (and has been in this thread) that the only winners in legal challenge are lawyers.... now not only is that not true all of the time, its an absolute guarantee that those disadvantaged by power and resource, will always remain disadvantaged without legal challenge, if the party with that power and resource chooses to not meet its legal obligations.

DOC have ideological positioning that they instinctively use to interpret their legal obligation.  They are also not shy of ignoring their legal obligations if they conflict with that ideology.

They have proven not to be concerned with the rights of the recreational public, in much of their function, and they also have little willingness to incorporate the opinion of the wider community into decision making.  The mandate of accessibility, public access and usage, the facilitation of a public resource belonging to the public - is most often treated as an idealogical exercise in passive exclusion, deliberate isolation and a constant focus on the restoration of the environment to a pre-european state..

How do you work with such a group?  Will that change?  Every sound bite I have ever heard emitting from them is soothing PR, but soon betrayed by what they do...

If they don't get their hand smacked, they won't change...  you just got to work out how you can smack it...



This is sadly, correct. Its something we should all be angry about.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Weathered
Online Forum Guide
Donor Member
Staff
*****
Offline


Amor Fati

Posts: 5771
Location: Speargrass Flat
Joined: Nov 9th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #177 - Aug 17th, 2015 at 8:51pm
Print Post  
Raptor wrote on Aug 17th, 2015 at 5:19pm:
Don't want to stir things up too much but Weathered you/we must stop calling it "DoC land" it isn't it is Public Conservation Land (PCL) and we must keep calling it that and correcting DOC every time they say it is theirs! It is ours!
Keep up the good fight many of us are with you.


Yeah point taken, "DoC land" Is my idea of an inside joke, ever since Mike Cuddihy told me to stop calling it DoC land in a meeting.  When DoC stop treating the land as their own private property I might do that  Smiley
  

"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.”
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HiTop
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Tops by dawn, a day in
heaven

Posts: 3164
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Apr 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #178 - Aug 18th, 2015 at 4:01am
Print Post  
Weathered wrote on Aug 17th, 2015 at 8:51pm:
Yeah point taken, "DoC land" Is my idea of an inside joke, ever since Mike Cuddihy told me to stop calling it DoC land in a meeting.  When DoC stop treating the land as their own private property I might do that  Smiley


+1
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
EC
Forum Font
*****
Offline



Posts: 2197
Location: West Coast - Reefton.
Joined: Nov 9th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Hunter representation
Reply #179 - Aug 18th, 2015 at 4:42am
Print Post  
It appears that DOC are showing their true colours more publicly now than they ever did Grin
That old saying that always popped up on these forums aways back ( never trust DOC ) did not go down to well with most  Roll Eyes
I guess now those that did not like that saying may feel a tad different nowadays eh,,or are they still not convinced  Smiley
  

Wrinkles are the map of your soulful journey,,,you'd be lost without them,,
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 
Send TopicPrint
 

FishnHunt - New Zealands Famous Hunting and Fishing Forum Since 1995 » Powered by YaBB 2.6.11!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2018. All Rights Reserved.
Site Design By Alan Simmons - PRism and all rights are reserved from 1995 and onwards