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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) Which Scope? (Read 9626 times)
Kiwi Greg
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #15 - Aug 17th, 2014 at 7:55pm
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300_BLK wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 9:43pm:
Thanks Glen.

I appreciate your honesty. Its good to get the facts from someone with the experience.

I usually use SFP and after trying a FFP want to make the switch to remove the need for maths when applying dialed corrections. I also want to learn to estimate range with the reticle to alleviate the need for a LRF.

The Bender's are certainly what I am aiming for but I will look through the new Vortex Razor 2 in the next few weeks when they arrive before making a decision.

That GA Precision must have been a real sweet rig, heard nothing but good things from owners. Pity it went down the road  Cry

What put you off the '1 scope' idea?

I have the opportunity to shoot LR all the time and want to make the most of these opportunities while I can. The rifle will be shot from the prone 95% of the time, so size and weight is not a real factor while I'm young enough not to notice a few extra kg's  Wink

Thanks again,

Frazer.


Not sure how far you are shooting but using the reticle instead of a rangefinder is going to cause you serious grief unless you know exactly how big the object you are ranging is.

The FFP reticles I have used didn't impress me at all, generally, too thick on high mag or too thin on low...

The NF reticles typically work on the highest power in the 15, 22 & 25 mag ones, I'm usually using full mag with most of my LR & ELR shooting so the reticle works well & are fine enough to be useful.

IMHO the NF ATACR has better glass than the Benders & Kahles, not as good as Premier & haven't looked through a Hensoldt yet, but at nearly twice the price it won't be coming home with me.

The ATACR with its 130 moa internal elevation is nearly in your price range  Wink

They are all big heavy scopes.....

After shooting the 50 again today I might have to get another ATACR to replace its NSX  Smiley
  

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ChrisF
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #16 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 12:33am
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FORGET about swapping the optic on to different rifles .

I would advise seeing If you can get to look thru or shoot some of the scopes you are interested in , there are maybe members close to your town that will let you have a look thru their scopes .

If you are close to Taranaki , you are welcome to look thru some of my scopes .

I have 4-16x50 & 5-25x56 Benders , and like both , I do find sometimes wanting more E on the 4-16x PMII , as this tops out at 13.5 mils with single turn knob , and its not available with double turn in mrad .
The 5-25x , has of course the double turn E knob & as the clicks are a bit wider apart , and marked every 0.1 mil ( the 4-16x is marked ervy 0.2 mils ) , that and the close range para of 10m , is somtimes handy and I donot find it overly large .

The price of 3.4k NZD for the Kahles is a good price , they are nice , but the glass is rated as not quite as good as the 5-25x PMII .

The Henys/Zeiss are normally rated as having the absolute best glass , BUT good glass is just one part of the requirements , you want solid repeatable adjustments before anything else is even considered .
The Heny SSG-P scope is not as bright as you would otherwise think , as its got a built in Laser filter that degrades the light transmission by approx 10% , it also has a limited about of E , at about 11 mils & thats on a 20 moa rail , on a flat you would get about 7mils .

For me the gold std is the 5-25x56mm PMII , their are 2 other scopes I am interested in , the  Heny 3.5-26x56mm ( its flaw to me is the current reticle & the MTC clicks ) , and the 3-27x56 PMII with 3 turn knob ( the feature I donot like on this is the locknig knobs ) , however these scopes are almost twice the price of the 5-25x PMII , and really the main thing they bring to the table is more E , ie around 36 mils , and do you really need that extra E ?

Cheers   Chris
  
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300_BLK
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #17 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 7:03am
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Thanks Greg and Chris, bot got some great points to consider.

I will make up my mind when I get to look through the scopes in the next few weeks.

Having looked at the S&B PMII 5-25, I know they are great, I just wonder if your paying for the name in there somewhere.
I was put off the 4-16x50 when I saw max E was 13.5 Mil, I will need roughly 19 to get to 1500 and 33 to get to 2k.

I am seriously considering the Kahles and Vortex http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/265185-vortex-razor-hd-4-...

Thanks for the help, there is a lot of information on the precision rifle blog!

Thanks again guys, let me know if any members are flicking a S&B  Wink

Frazer.
  

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Gillie
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #18 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 8:20am
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #19 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 8:28am
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Meopta seem to have decent mechanics. Solid. Haven't tried a Meopro. But out of Kahles Zeiss Minox Bushnell..in the hunter lines Meopta models is best.
Glass Bushnell slightly last but quite hard to tell between the others. If you need to pull out a resolution test to decide.. then the difference is pretty redundant in practical usefulness.
I read in a US comparison Minox glass was ordinary but it seems quite fine to me in a ZA5
The mechanics in them seems a bit weak. Almost VX1 territory... good value though as the price is lower.
  

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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #20 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 6:26pm
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I will second Greg's opinion on the whole ranging using the reticle issue.

As far as I am concerned if you intend shooting LR or ELR a laser range finder is an absolute must have. Not a want, a need!

I cringe when I read some of the retarded posts on the snipers hide forum. Most of the people going on about ranging with a reticle have no f**king idea what they are talking about. It really is an awful website. Also, I assume you will be shooting at stationary targets that you know the size of?

Cause if you're not, then you are going to need all the luck in the world ranging with a reticle. I would go as far as to say its almost going to be impossible.
  

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Kiwi Greg
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #21 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 7:13pm
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ProudKiwi wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 6:26pm:
I will second Greg's opinion on the whole ranging using the reticle issue.

As far as I am concerned if you intend shooting LR or ELR a laser range finder is an absolute must have. Not a want, a need!

I cringe when I read some of the retarded posts on the snipers hide forum. Most of the people going on about ranging with a reticle have no f*cking idea what they are talking about. It really is an awful website. Also, I assume you will be shooting at stationary targets that you know the size of?

Cause if you're not, then you are going to need all the luck in the world ranging with a reticle. I would go as far as to say its almost going to be impossible.


Once you go past 1000 yards 10-20 yards makes a big difference, halve this range if you are using a 308  Grin
  

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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #22 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 7:15pm
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #23 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 7:17pm
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I have had people turn up to longer range steel shoots without a range finder. Upon realising i had put some "challenging" time limits on stages they found they simply could not estimate the range fast enough using their reticle. I suppose i made their life difficult by not giving them the target sizes and by using a range of target sizes between 6" and 20". Still i treated everyone equaly - no one was given the target sizes  Grin

Ranging with the recticle takes a huge amount of practice to learn to do well. Also it is a perishable skill, you need to practice it often to maintain the ability to do it well. Pretty certain there is occassionally a stage requiring this at the Gunslinger events (not that i have attended one though).

Funny though, i got the DVDs of the Fort Benning Internation Sniper Competitions and was watching them with a former NZ Army sniper. He mentioned that their ranging with the reticles must have been quite bad as their range estimates were far enough out to fail the NZ Sniper qualification done by eye... Grin
  
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #24 - Aug 18th, 2014 at 10:05pm
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300_BLK wrote on Aug 18th, 2014 at 7:15pm:


Once they come out with a 50mm obj I will prob try one. They look good on paper.
  

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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #25 - Aug 19th, 2014 at 11:12pm
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ProudKiwi wrote on Aug 16th, 2014 at 9:18pm:
I've owned Benders and Kahles and have used the Vortex.

Of the 3, the PMII is the nicest to look through and the turrets are brilliant, especially the DT version with second rev counter. The glass in the Kahles is a little bit behind the S&B with really nice turrets. I especially like the parallax location. The Vortex glass is quite a bit behind both the S&B and the Kahles. The turrets are very very good. People who go banging on about the glass in the Vortex scopes being as good as the PMII's are dreaming. I'm pretty sure they are deliberately trying to deceive themselves because they can't afford a Bender. I will also add at this point that the glass in the Hendsolt's and the Premiere's are better than the PMII.

Now the negatives.

The illumination turret on the PMII is SHIT!!! It's in a ridiculous position that really impacts negatively on mounting options.

All these scopes are f*ckING ENOURMOUS!!!!!!!!

If your mounting them on a rifle that weighs less than 6kgs and is not designed primarily for prone shooting they will flat out ruin your life! The balance will be horrific.

My PMII was mounted on a GA Precision built .338 Norma Mag which I recently sold. I found that I just wasn't using it anywhere near as much as I thought I was going to. Just too big and heavy to be arsed carrying around. I have smaller/carry rifles that ballistically do everything I need them to do out to at least 1k.

On paper, having one scope mounted in a QD system sounds viable. It isn't. In fact, in real life it's pretty much one if the worse ideas ever. Been there, done that. Lasted about one week.

You don't need illumination for LR shooting. In fact I'm not convinced you need an illuminated reticle for any sort of hunting. Personal opinion only of course.

34mm tube = more elevation adjustment which you may or may not need depending on how far you plan on shooting.

FFP vs SFP. For some reasons the yanks have a hardon for FFP and I'm f*cked if I know why. For how we use our scopes here and the way the very few comps we have are run it makes no difference at all.

Would I own another PMII? Yes if I built another longranger but the chances of that happening are remote. I'm looking pretty seriously at a S&B ultra short for another build I'm doing though.

Hope that answers some of your questions Smiley


Couldn't have said it better myself!

Traded the PMII for a small Leica ERi as the share size was just not practical. (BTW the leica glass is as good as the S&B

Fraser you made the comment that a few kgs are not a problem....I spent the last 10 years telling myself that but guess what....I came to my senses.
  

Always go high, animals don't look up.
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Kiwi Greg
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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #26 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 6:58am
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stag wrote on Aug 19th, 2014 at 11:12pm:
Fraser you made the comment that a few kgs are not a problem....I spent the last 10 years telling myself that but guess what....I came to my senses.



The older you get the more that sort of thing happens  Smiley
  

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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #27 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 8:40pm
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Kiwi Greg wrote on Aug 20th, 2014 at 6:58am:
stag wrote on Aug 19th, 2014 at 11:12pm:
Fraser you made the comment that a few kgs are not a problem....I spent the last 10 years telling myself that but guess what....I came to my senses.



The older you get the more that sort of thing happens  Smiley


It's got nothing to do with the extra 10kgs round my waist Sad
  

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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #28 - Aug 23rd, 2014 at 7:26pm
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Anyone got experience with the Kahles K624i with MSR reticle?
  

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Re: Which Scope?
Reply #29 - Aug 23rd, 2014 at 7:57pm
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Yes. I had one. Liked it a lot, including that reticle.

Still a gigantic scope though!!

I just bought an ATACR. I'm honestly far more impressed than I expected to be.

Jason at DED was really good to deal with also. Smiley
  

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