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Homeopathy statement (Read 1953 times)
ethos
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Homeopathy statement
Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:43pm
 
This may be of interest to some, its ruffling a few feathers overseas.

The American Vet Medical Association has researched and published a statement on homeopathy in veterinary medicine:

https://www.avma.org/About/Governance/Documents/Resolution3_2013_Homeopathy.pdf

"Homeopathy has been conclusively demonstrated to be ineffective"

"With respect to the practices known as Homeopathy, there is strong, widely accepted scientific evidence that the theoretical foundations of homeopathy are inconsistent with established principles of chemistry, physics, biology and physiology. Further, extensive clinical trial evidence has shown the practice of homeopathy has been ineffective in treating or preventing any disease.
While homeopathic remedies are not inherently unsafe, the use of ineffective therapy to the exclusion of established treatment may endanger patients"

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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #1 - Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:29am
 
Its an interesting situation - here is some more information on the article.....

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/01/04/homeopathic-...

Nothing is ever quite what it seems.
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #2 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 6:22am
 
just because something is well written and written by educated people does not mean that it is true. Homeopathy has to my understanding no scientific basis.... watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0for a laugh, sadly the comedy encapsulates most of the 'science' as I understand it for homeopathy.

Any associated 'well being' or holistic stuff to homeopathic practice could be seen as just caring to the needs of your animal and should not be confused with homeopathic mumbo jumbo. Sorry if this offends anyone - though on this forum I really can't see how it would.
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #3 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:42pm
 
I used homeopathy very successfully on one of my dogs.  He hadn't read the reviews.
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #4 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:01pm
 
I successfully used homeopathy for years in treating my cows for mastitis, pink eye and other ailments.

From my experience, it requires a very hands on experience approach to use the right remedies at the right time.  We had an enthusiatic staff member who believed in the use but was not as proficient at her application, and her results were not as significant.

When running large operations we dropped using homeopathy because of the reliability of 3rd person or staff application.... if I was in the shed every day treating the sick animals, I would still be using it, and my vet bill would be considerably less.

The great thing about vets, is that they hate the stuff..... they don't get a margin on homeopathic remedy, they can't control it and there are issues with proficient use as pointed out.

I wouldn't trust a vet's report or study on homeopathy as far as you could kick the vet.

And yes while my experience is just anecdotal to everyone else, I actually know the difference...

Homeopathy and positive results from animals sort of eliminate the old chestnut "its all in your head" and that tends to be a little galling for the skeptics..

Positive results are a little harder to ignore..

Just as well we have a another scientific study proving that it didn't work for me...   Grin
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« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:02pm by sidney »  
 
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #5 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:25pm
 
I recently return from two month in the depths of India with my wife and two year old son.  Only used homeopathic immuization while over there and didn't have one sick day between us.  Had others around us who were injected up to the eyeballs with everything under the sun from the doctor who spent most of there time in bed or on the toilet.  Guess it's up to the individual to decide what they believe and what works for them...as always it's personal choice.
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #6 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:21pm
 
Any dairy farmers using homeopathic lepto vaccine?
If not why not?
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #7 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:41pm
 
The "white paper":
https://www.avma.org/About/Governance/Documents/Resolution3_2013_Homeopathy_Attc...

"However, while homeopathy has been studied and used for 200 years, and continues to be
supported by small minorities within the scientific and healthcare communities, in controlled
scientific investigations it has failed to demonstrate effectiveness beyond placebo for any
indication. This practice has failed to be validated scientifically at all levels of evidence"

The AVMA continues:
"Despite the continued popularity of homeopathy among a small, but passionate community of
advocates, who respond aggressively to any criticism of the practice, a growing number of
veterinary, human healthcare, and governmental organizations are acknowledging that existing
scientific evidence strongly supports the conclusion that homeopathy has no effect beyond
placebo. Because it is unethical to offer ineffective therapies to clients, and dangerous to
substitute a placebo therapy for truly effective medicine, there is a movement towards publically
acknowledging that there is no reason to believe homeopathic treatment has any real value in
preventing or treating disease"

In part the AVMA appears to see the need to make these statements due to information from the Academy of Veterinary Homeopathy which suggests

"Only the remedy that is homeopathic to the patient is to be used.”
Drugs and methods of treatment which are not homeopathic to the case are to be
avoided because of the possibility of interference with the progress of cure.”
and
"During homeopathic treatment, vaccination is usually contraindicated"

Dangerous territory there.
Im for free choice but not in animal welfare or human health (as in lepto etc)
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #8 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 6:50am
 
Just to be sure on what we are discussing here....    Are we talking about the repeated distillation of a substance down to one part in many millions with repeated shaking / swirling or what have you to pass on the active memory of the active substance to the water/alcohol molecules and then using this distillate (although scientifically speaking this can no longer be called a distillate) to treat like with like? Using this logic I would have thought that by its very nature, water which has been around for millions of years and has knocked up against all sorts of active substances would already be homeopathic in its nature since the more a substance is diluted the stronger its homeopathic effect becomes.... a quick Google pulled up an NZ study on homeopathic treatment for cows  http://homeopathy.ac.nz/full-text-articles/homoeopathy-v-antibiotics-in-dairy-co... and shows that the dilution was 30c or in other words a "Dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes: on average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions.

I was first introduced to homeopathy in the early 80's at young farmers... the science (if that is what you call it) didn't stack up for me then nor now.  The side treatment by homeopathic practitioners than include well being, exercise, diet etc probably contribute to the perceived success of the treatment. Homeopathy medicines on their own simply cannot work without 'belief' i.e. placebo effect.

If homeopathic remedies are really working for your animals then I would question if they are truly homeopathic or if the carrier fluid is alcohol and it is this that  is really doing the good works? 

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« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:04am by Cooey71 »  
 
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #9 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:10am
 
ethos wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:21pm:
Any dairy farmers using homeopathic lepto vaccine?
If not why not?


I never did...

couple of obvious reasons...

Vets kinda have the monopoly on compliance certification, and if what you were doing didn't work and a staff member got lepto, then the conventional thinking may create some culpability under OSH for the farmer.

Secondally its a serious disease, and while risk may be reduced or possibly eliminated under alternative treatment options... the significance of not achieving protection for yourself or your staff is rather more serious than using homeopathy treatment to treat pink eye after conventional veterinary approaches have proved less than satisfactory.  (The reason that I became involved in the first place after having being just as skeptical as the next cynic)..


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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #10 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:37am
 
Cooey71 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 6:50am:
Just to be sure on what we are discussing here....    Are we talking about the repeated distillation of a substance down to one part in many millions with repeated shaking / swirling or what have you to pass on the active memory of the active substance to the water/alcohol molecules and then using this distillate (although scientifically speaking this can no longer be called a distillate) to treat like with like? Using this logic I would have thought that by its very nature, water which has been around for millions of years and has knocked up against all sorts of active substances would already be homeopathic in its nature since the more a substance is diluted the stronger its homeopathic effect becomes.... a quick Google pulled up an NZ study on homeopathic treatment for cows  http://homeopathy.ac.nz/full-text-articles/homoeopathy-v-antibiotics-in-dairy-co... and shows that the dilution was 30c or in other words a "Dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes: on average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions.

I was first introduced to homeopathy in the early 80's at young farmers... the science (if that is what you call it) didn't stack up for me then nor now.  The side treatment by homeopathic practitioners than include well being, exercise, diet etc probably contribute to the perceived success of the treatment. Homeopathy medicines on their own simply cannot work without 'belief' i.e. placebo effect.

If homeopathic remedies are really working for your animals then I would question if they are truly homeopathic or if the carrier fluid is alcohol and it is this that  is really doing the good works? 




Seriously?

Homeopathy doesn't work cause science doesn't understand how it can, but spraying alcohol on a cows fanny must be the cause of her cure if she gets better?

You are missing the point.... there may be some religlious fevor in the practitioner when treating his cows, but its a major stretch to believe that the practitioner will continue to believe if he doesn't get results from the cows who don't have a clue what is being squirted on their bums...

I have no idea of the science of how it works.... neither do the scientists obviously - but practically with experience I have seen some significant results over large numbers of animals.

I get a little tired of being told it can't work by people referring to another badly designed study created by those who don't understand how it works, from those who have a vested interest in trying to discredit therapies they cannot benefit from.

There is a lot of weird stuff in this world we just don't understand..  Science however is not the last word on reality.  Science is limited to its own developmental level of understanding... and science is not unbiased - the principles of scientific method may be close; but as soon as you involve humans in that process the reliabilty disappears..

Personally my approach is to evaluate any knowledge that is available, to try what doesn't cost much, to discard what doesn't work... I have done all that with homeopathy for reasons previously explained..

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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #11 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 12:01pm
 
Did you ever do any control group testing?
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #12 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 12:07pm
 
Nope was too busy being a farmer...
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #13 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 1:20pm
 
sidney wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:37am:
Seriously?

Homeopathy doesn't work cause science doesn't understand how it can, but spraying alcohol on a cows fanny must be the cause of her cure if she gets better?

You are missing the point.... there may be some religlious fevor in the practitioner when treating his cows, but its a major stretch to believe that the practitioner will continue to believe if he doesn't get results from the cows who don't have a clue what is being squirted on their bums...

I have no idea of the science of how it works.... neither do the scientists obviously - but practically with experience I have seen some significant results over large numbers of animals.

I get a little tired of being told it can't work by people referring to another badly designed study created by those who don't understand how it works, from those who have a vested interest in trying to discredit therapies they cannot benefit from.

There is a lot of weird stuff in this world we just don't understand..  Science however is not the last word on reality.  Science is limited to its own developmental level of understanding... and science is not unbiased - the principles of scientific method may be close; but as soon as you involve humans in that process the reliabilty disappears..

Personally my approach is to evaluate any knowledge that is available, to try what doesn't cost much, to discard what doesn't work... I have done all that with homeopathy for reasons previously explained..



Yes seriously.

Is the homeopathic remidy that you stand behind prepared to the true standards of homeopathy or is it a herbal preparation.  I am trying to be sure that we are talking about the same thing.

Why is it so crazy to think that ethanol rubbed onto udders might help the process of healing?   after all alcohol has been used as a disinfectant for ages. But this may not actually be how the treatment is administered in this case -  it could be a nasal spray for all I know....

And I do not believe that animals can be suckered into believing that pills and potions work. What I said was "Homeopathy medicines on their own simply cannot work without 'belief' i.e. placebo effect."  If homeopathic prescriptions appear to work then I would look to what else has changed i.e. what is not now being done and what is now being done.

Hell, this debate has been going on for centuries, so we are not going to clear it up here. I am happy that these approaches work for you but I do not believe that homeopathy works on its own and without other practices or environmental changes happening.

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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #14 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 2:40pm
 
As many on here already know, Mine and my family's farms have gone down the organic route. This means very little in the way of restricted medicines can be used.
My experience of switching from conventional to other forms of treatment is that the overwhelming factor in animal health is the husbandry. Early detection,prompt treatment, and a higher level of care at those early stages prevents the need for 90% of animal health costs. Being rigorously hard in culling animals prone to problems, no matter what other redeeming features they may have is also a huge factor. This has seen us reduce our cell count from just under 400,000 under a conventional farming system, to 120,000 under the organic system as an example.In no case could that be contributed to modern medicine or homeopathy.

Back to dogs. If some problem crops up, treat it before it becomes an issue, rest the dog, take care of it. It may need no more than that. If the issue looks at all serious or worsens, take it to the vet.
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #15 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 2:50pm
 
shankspony wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 2:40pm:
As many on here already know, Mine and my family's farms have gone down the organic route. This means very little in the way of restricted medicines can be used.
My experience of switching from conventional to other forms of treatment is that the overwhelming factor in animal health is the husbandry. Early detection,prompt treatment, and a higher level of care at those early stages prevents the need for 90% of animal health costs. Being rigorously hard in culling animals prone to problems, no matter what other redeeming features they may have is also a huge factor. This has seen us reduce our cell count from just under 400,000 under a conventional farming system, to 120,000 under the organic system as an example.In no case could that be contributed to modern medicine or homeopathy.
.


Now that makes absolute sense to me....
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #16 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 3:18pm
 
This is what worries me -

A white paper is intended to be an unbiased, "just the facts, ma'am" type of document. In this case, it is completely biased and comes only from the anonymous author's point of view. What's really frustrating is this supposedly unbiased white paper is full of biased information, is authored by a person who apparently didn't feel comfortable putting his name to it, and who did not consult with a single veterinary homeopath or other expert in homeopathy for the purpose of presenting a balanced approach to the topic.

And that free choice is being challenged.

I take a balanced approach to my dog's health - my vet is both vet school and homeopathy trained.  So where-ever possible we use homeopathic, and where not we use allopathic medicines.  For example muscle injuries are treated with Ruta grav, or Rhus Tox, we have been know to have rats - so he (dog) is given Lepto vaccine.
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #17 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 6:39pm
 
Absolutely agree on the husbandry being key as well.
My understanding is the white paper was compiled by a couple of satellite associations to the AVMA, in particular the Evidence Based Veterinary Medicine Association, board members of which have been quite open to put their names to their contribution:
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/01/growing-support-for-the-avma-resolution-declari...

"EBVMA Board of Directors
Brennen McKenzie, VMD, MA
Stuart Turner, DVM, MS
Annette O’Connor, BVSc, MVSc, DVSc, FACVSc (Epidemiology)
Thomas Doker, DVM, MPH
Ken Drobatz, DVM, MSCE, DACVIM, DACVECC
Virginia Fajt, DVM, PhD
Joe Hauptman, DVM, MS, DACVS
John Gay, DVM, PhD, DACVPM
Brad Hanna, BSc, DVM, MSc, PhD
Marnie Brennan, BSc (VB), BVMS, PhD "

On the same skeptics website there is a very detailed breakdown of  the homeopaths response to the AVMA resolution and what the skeptics think, I dont claim to have read it all!
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/01/response-to-comments-from-the-academy-of-veteri...;                       

What I would point out is the AVMA are claiming to only want to clarify what is provable as potential veterinary therapy, they have not expressed any intent to ban homeopathy.
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #18 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 8:11pm
 
I have used some homeopathic remedies on my animals and if they showed improvement I figured it was because it worked.  They couldn't read the labels.
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Re: Homeopathy statement
Reply #19 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 10:02pm
 
Cooey71 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 1:20pm:
Yes seriously.

Is the homeopathic remidy that you stand behind prepared to the true standards of homeopathy or is it a herbal preparation.  I am trying to be sure that we are talking about the same thing.

Why is it so crazy to think that ethanol rubbed onto udders might help the process of healing?   after all alcohol has been used as a disinfectant for ages. But this may not actually be how the treatment is administered in this case -  it could be a nasal spray for all I know....

And I do not believe that animals can be suckered into believing that pills and potions work. What I said was "Homeopathy medicines on their own simply cannot work without 'belief' i.e. placebo effect."  If homeopathic prescriptions appear to work then I would look to what else has changed i.e. what is not now being done and what is now being done.

Hell, this debate has been going on for centuries, so we are not going to clear it up here. I am happy that these approaches work for you but I do not believe that homeopathy works on its own and without other practices or environmental changes happening.




And that is the bit I object to...

You limited understanding and any experience with the practice of homeopathy hardly qualifies you to make blanket absolute statements such as the above... . particularly if you don't even understand the difference between herbal remedy and HP.  Animal HP is typically applied in a small spray to the mucous tissue of the fanny, or the nose.  It is not rubbed on the udder.

Shanks is correct (as you are partially in the above statement) ... one of the main contributions by someone concentrating on learning to be effective in the use of homeopathy (or other alternative practice), is the increased attention paid to the livestock, and that in itself is beneficial, and cannot be solely attributed to the use of HP remedy...

I take it that is your point, if poorly communicated...

However, to illustrate exactly what you claim is not possible, my first experiance with the use of homeopathic remedy born out of desperation because of an outbreak of pink eye... milking 360 cows and having 40 plus cows with varying level of advancement of the problem, and more each day....

No response to the conventional antibiotic veterinary reccomended treatments, rang a specialist homeopathic vet, asked for advice, was sent 2-3 differing remedies for the various stages of infection and a bottle of prevention.

NOTHING else changed apart from dropping the conventional, and from the day I started treating and preventing, no further animals presented, and those apart from the most serious all improved and most regained their eyesight in the affected eyes.  I had 2-3 that were blinded in the end, in one eye.

Now like you and every other clown who always know better, but knows nothing about it apart from reading something somewhere... I would not have believed the turn around around possible...

So clearly my belief in the idea, can't have made it happen for me... maybe my desperation did?

After that... we started using HP remedies for mastitus... this is more consistant of an example of an increased benefit from better husbandry as a result of using HP and not just a clinical response from the treatment.

With mastitus, conventional veterinary advice would tell you that early detection and complete stripping every milking alone will result in around 50% cure.  The will also tell you if pressed that conventional anitbiotic treatment and stripping will generate around 65% cure...

Do the math... you are paying for 100% of antibiotic treatments under a conventional recommended process for a net 15% benefit.  100% of cost of treatment per cow for every cow, and 4-5 days of milk revenues tipped down the drain, for every cow.

With the close attention demanded by best HP practice, I was consistantly over several years able to achieve in excess of 85% cure rates, with limited treatment cost, and negligible milk loss from witholding.

While I accept that some benefit also came from improved practice, we saw enough spectacular reversals and cures to be absolutely certain of the value of careful expert HP use.. for us the financial benefits were immense, the stock health was better and the vets got a lot less out of us.

If this paper/report is all about making it not possible for vets to use HP, then I for one would absolutely agree.  There are enough vets around now who still work with some quality operators who use HP, and who know full well the benefits, but because they cannot explain how it works; they are not able to think laterally enough to be able to run any sort of expert HP type practice... this essentially means failure as proven again by this report...

In my opinion as a result of experience over a number of years, using HP.... the only way to consistantly get good results is to be hands on, twice daily and to be very attentive to what is happening with your stock... if that is done well and the right treatment is provided when needed, you don't need to believe to get results.

So on that basis, getting you in the shed with the right guidence and even you could successfully treat... and the stock would get better in spite of your non-acceptance....  Grin






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