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Hot Topic (More than 30 Replies) value of a trained-working deer dog (Read 15766 times)
huntdog
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value of a trained-working deer dog
Jul 25th, 2010 at 1:32am
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Just as a matter of interest what would you be prepared to pay for a trained-working deer dog??
  
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Barat
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #1 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 7:55am
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Not that I am looking to buy ... but I would say that there would need to be a lot more info to answer that question. Your current question is a "how long is a piece of string?" question.

Some things I would expect to be added would be:

  • Breed
    Age
    Actual level of training and ability to work with a range of people
    Hunting results so far
    Temperament with people and dogs
    Temperament of parents / siblings
    Any health issues (again extends to family members)
    What the dog is like to live with (a dog is not hunting all the time .. or usually even most of the time).
    Sex (and if de-sexed)
    NZKC registered


I am sure there is heaps more ... but price is not just one thing. People get a whole dog.
  

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wildmann
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #2 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 9:44am
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Bugger most of that shit Barat, would only worry about that as a second thought, perhaps if I wanted to breed from it... If I was after a Trained dog, all that would matter would be results. I could put up with anything if it did exactly what it was meant to. Trained pig dogs and sheep dogs go for thousands. You would just have to prove it to the new owner I would think.

As a side I dont know how much a of a market there is for already trained dogs as there doesn't seem to be a standard way to hunt deer with a dog in NZ. So what might work for one guy, might not for others?
  
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sambarman
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #3 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:02am
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Here in Austalia, in particular Victoria there has been quite a resurgence in the use of versatile hunting dogs to hunt Sambar. Hunters here are enjoying a high degree of success using top class dogs. In most cases the dogs are dual purpose - pet/family member and hunting partner.

Expect to pay a minimum of AUD $1000 for a well bred pup and then take it from there. A finnished dog >2yrs, if you could find one for sale (a big IF) would cost upwards of AUD$5,000.

Where I live, most utes have a WINCHESTER sticker on the back window and GWP tied up in the back. Very few of these good 'ol boys would sell their dog for any money.

On the other hand you couild import a DD from Germany. The good ones start at about 6000 Euros and by the time you get them down here you spend somewhere in the vicinity of AUD $20,000.

It all depeds on what you want and how much you are prepared to pay Smiley
  
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huntdog
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #4 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:57am
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cheers for answering "the question" wildmann and sambarman(much the way i thought and the looked at it compared to other working dogs for price etc),I dont think the question needed questioning or correcting, if its a deer dog thoughs that actually hunt know what i mean and expect from a "deer Dog" it could be pink with purple spots as long as it does the job,lets say if you dont understand what one would expect... winds,tracks,points,tracks again, special features could be guts, carries, cooks, capes salts and prepares for mounting lol, dont know anyone that would train a dog to that standard that wasnt up to health standard etc.... wasnt and arnt into an argument about breeds or opinions of best breed, who should breed or how etc. simple question if you were purchasing a trained deer dog how much do you think you would be prepared to pay, of coarse like when picking the ute it gets to the hunt ground on you would have a trial run to see how well trained it was,hand  over etc.....
  
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Barat
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #5 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:14pm
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I did not say that there was a 'best breed' or not but of someone is looking at buying a dog they should know what breed (or breed mixture) it is as this can impact whether they will buyt it. Breed background does not guarantee traits but can very give a good indication of likely traits. So I would really like to know if it is a Pit Bull or a Spaniel (or if crossed what are the main breeds) .. but have ... why worry about that shit if it hunts.

So if people want to buy a dog that can hunt and really do not care that the family genetics suggest it is likely to dead from a heart problem in a year or so .. or crap out from HD .. or start having seizures ... or likely to take a bite out of any visiting kid (or maybe one who lives there) ..... well fine .. bugger all that shit .. 'cos it hunts.

And if it really is great all round .... who cares about possibly breeding the greatness on ..... just more shit .. 'cos it hunts.

Personally I would prefer to know the whole story Smiley
  

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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #6 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:42pm
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But you don't hunt do you?
  

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Barat
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #7 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:45pm
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Actually GDT I have hunted off and on most of my life .. what I do not do is shoot. I have had others do the killing.

  

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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #8 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:13pm
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Quote:
cheers for answering "the question" wildmann and sambarman(much the way i thought and the looked at it compared to other working dogs for price etc),I dont think the question needed questioning or correcting, if its a deer dog thoughs that actually hunt know what i mean and expect from a "deer Dog" it could be pink with purple spots as long as it does the job,lets say if you dont understand what one would expect... winds,tracks,points,tracks again, special features could be guts, carries, cooks, capes salts and prepares for mounting lol, dont know anyone that would train a dog to that standard that wasnt up to health standard etc.... wasnt and arnt into an argument about breeds or opinions of best breed, who should breed or how etc. simple question if you were purchasing a trained deer dog how much do you think you would be prepared to pay, of coarse like when picking the ute it gets to the hunt ground on you would have a trial run to see how well trained it was,hand  over etc.....


There is a lot of ground between a dog that "does the job" and a top class deer hunting dog. Any flea bag should be able to find a red hot fresh deer. What about the ones that are over a day old and when pickin's are slim. Or when there's one drop of blood every 200 metres? Or when a wallaby or a fox jumps up infront of him and he takes off yapping like a bastard?

I've shot deer over a wide variety of dogs ranging from little fox terriers, sheep dogs, cattle dogs, kangaroo and pig dogs right through to foxhounds. Many of them have been good deer dogs. However very few have been great deer dogs.

Training just refines things and teaches them manners. (In most cases its the hunter that needs the training not the dog.) Breeding is where it's really at.
  
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #9 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:46pm
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My answer: They have no value!!
I reckon the question is a crap question from someone that has never trained a deer dog and I make no appologies for saying so.
While the owner trains the dog, the dog also trains the owner, if they team up well they can become one hunting machine and also very good mates. Take one away from the other and they are very average again. It would take alot of work to match up a deer dog with a new team mate.
If someone says they are selling a top working deer dog they are probably pulling your left one. You will only be let down by the expectations you have formed that the dog is "trained", because you are not trained.
My advice is start from a pup learn and grow together and form a life time bond.
  
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #10 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 3:44pm
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SouthernConversion wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 2:46pm:
My answer: They have no value!!
I reckon the question is a crap question from someone that has never trained a deer dog and I make no appologies for saying so.
While the owner trains the dog, the dog also trains the owner, if they team up well they can become one hunting machine and also very good mates. Take one away from the other and they are very average again. It would take alot of work to match up a deer dog with a new team mate.
If someone says they are selling a top working deer dog they are probably pulling your left one. You will only be let down by the expectations you have formed that the dog is "trained", because you are not trained.
My advice is start from a pup learn and grow together and form a life time bond.


There are elements of what you say that I agree with, but fundamentally I don't. In the current NZ situation where there isn;t anyone producing trained deer dogs you are probably correct to be very wary of anyone selling a trained dog, but it's worth checking circumstances, many a good dog has moved on to a new home due to changes in owner circumstances.

I'm not sure what makes you think it would take some time to bond... most dogs if the handler knows what he is doing bond extremely quickly. If the trainer knows what he's doing part of the introduction should be to ensure the new handler is taking this action. When dogs come in here for training it is unusual for there not be a strong bond between me and them within 24-48 hours. Strong enough to often hunt better for me than they do for their owner.

But you make a valid point... there's no such thing as a "just add water" dog... part of selling a trained dog (And I have done a few bird dogs for folks) is a one or two session introducing the new owner to handling and keeping the training going and establishing the same re-pore as the person who trained the dog. A poor handler can undo all of the trainers work in less than a week though if truly incompetent.

BUT... I believe the majority of people if they are new to dogs and have access to a professionally trained dog should go for it. There's an old saying which I have seen come true far more often than not which goes "Most people stuff their first dog up". They do so because they haven;t got a clue what they are doing... as you'd expect. I use the analogy of my wife with horses... she can care for, handle, ride and do everything she needs to do with a horse, but would she go and buy a foal and break it in and train that to be her saddle horse, not in a million years, she'd a get a professional to do it. Those who I have seen get a started or trained dog go on to have a wonderful relationship with the dog with a minimum of frustration and majority of enjoyment and success on both parts... having gone through that experience and learned a lot they are ready to take on a pup themselves.

In answer to your question at the start though... what would I pay... The last started dog I sold for $3500 which was in addition to purchase price and vet fees etc. I worked out I made about $8 an hour on the before tax. I wouldn't do another to that level (Recall, steady to game and shot, multiple retrieves, blind retrieves hunting in range... basically field ready) for less than $5000.

Now Barat makes some interesting points but realistically no trainer is going to take on that kind of training job with inferior stock and while it is worth asking the questions you can be pretty certain any trainer entering into such an arrangement has, or should have done that homework for you.
  

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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #11 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 4:13pm
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GDT, I guess I just don't understand why anyone would ever "sell" a trained deer dog. I know circumstances change (like an overseas shift) and people have to pass a dog on but in every case I have ever seen of this, they have been given to someone special, NOT sold.
A "very good dog person" can definitely bond with an adult dog and over some time they will work each other out to good effect...... how many "very good dog people" do you know? I can count the ones I know with about 3 fingers and do they buy trained deer dogs, no never!
I have nothing against employing the services of professional dog trainers, eg curing problems or training for professional hunting (eg DOC). But the selling of adult "trained" hunting dogs to recreational hunters is an ugly business. A business that should be left to the ugly pig hunters.
  
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #12 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 4:23pm
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SouthernConversion wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 4:13pm:
GDT, I guess I just don't understand why anyone would ever "sell" a trained deer dog. I know circumstances change (like an overseas shift) and people have to pass a dog on but in every case I have ever seen of this, they have been given to someone special, NOT sold.
A "very good dog person" can definitely bond with an adult dog and over some time they will work each other out to good effect...... how many "very good dog people" do you know? I can count the ones I know with about 3 fingers and do they buy trained deer dogs, no never!
I have nothing against employing the services of professional dog trainers, eg curing problems or training for professional hunting (eg DOC). But the selling of adult "trained" hunting dogs to recreational hunters is an ugly business. A business that should be left to the ugly pig hunters.


Really? there's nothing ugly about it. Dogs go out at 18 months of age it's standard practice throughout the world. Most people with a modicum of common sense grasp what is required in the two day hand over process.Yes its a foreign concept to most "do it yourself" Kiwis but then we have, by everything I have seen, by and large the most unruly, untrained self hunting dogs than you'll find just about anywhere.. I wonder why?

Why would anyone sell a trained dog? Well in my case... I have a mature hunting dog, he's one of the best dogs of his type in the country and I hunt over him anytime I want. I have his replacement here in my kennel, he's nine, she's eight months... coming on and showing promise to be every bit as good as him. Now if a client wants a trained dog why the hell wouldn't I train a dog for him. I'd be wary of buying a trained dog from someone selling their only dog other than as you say going overseas, but that one thing doesn't preclude the real value in the concept.

The main point though is there are those who hunt and see the dog as an accessory to that and there are those of us who hunt because we work dogs. For me there's a lot of thrill in getting that young dog going, some hunters can't be bothered with it... we both win then... I don;t lose when the dog goes, I still have great dogs in my kennel.

In fact I would say 90% of the questions asked on here would never have been asked if the people involved had bought a started dog and spent those two days with a professional handler to begin with.

I think I get where you are coming from but I think it's tainted with the idea anyone selling a trained dog is looking for a sucker... and I agree that can happen, but done properly it's actually the most sensible way forward for the first time dog handler.

BTW, many farmers these days buy their dogs at least at the started stage for work and most of them would be more experienced dog men than those on here trying to train a gundog... Keep a thought for those in Auckland for instance where training areas are bloody hard to find, much easier to get one at 18 months of age that has all the donkey work done.
  

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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #13 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 4:57pm
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I have a couple of dog training books here, written in the UK, and from reading the books, the authors train a lot of dogs from pups and hand them over to owners ready to go. ie.  you buy your pup of chosen breed and lineage, hand it over to the trainer and get it back a couple of years later ready to go.  Of course, hunting/shooting isn't available for everybody in the UK(too expensive), so many of these people have the ability to pay.  That isn't the case for the majority of Kiwi hunters.
  
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Re: value of a trained-working deer dog
Reply #14 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 6:03pm
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Grunter wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 4:57pm:
I have a couple of dog training books here, written in the UK, and from reading the books, the authors train a lot of dogs from pups and hand them over to owners ready to go. ie.  you buy your pup of chosen breed and lineage, hand it over to the trainer and get it back a couple of years later ready to go.  Of course, hunting/shooting isn't available for everybody in the UK(too expensive), so many of these people have the ability to pay.  That isn't the case for the majority of Kiwi hunters.

Agreed, it isn't within everyone's budget but if you can it makes life very easy and you end up with a better dog because so many pitfalls have been avoided.

While I concede there are a lot who cannot afford it I always quote the old saying of folks who will justify a $4000 shotgun... but not a dog... if they switched their budget, in many cases they'd get a lot more birds. I use a $400 shotgun I bought on trade-me... My stud dog must be worth at least $8000 given he has generated that amount in stud fees. Others may disagree, but I reckon he hunts like an $8000 dog too!
  

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