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headcase
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best night scope
Feb 18th, 2010 at 1:05pm
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What are your thought on the best scope for shooting bunnies at night using subs, and spot. I’m using a cheapie at the moment with a varmint style reticule,  a 4x12x42.  Its often quite difficult to make out which horizontal line I’m looking at and I reckon I’ve shot over the top of the head sometimes because of this. The optics are sharp but the thin lines can be hard to make out in the semi darkness at the peripheral light of the spot. Just using the outer edges of the light seems to be the only way to effectively hold them.

Does anyone find a lighted crosshair helps?

Sometimes the 4x seems good for quick target acquisition and sometimes winding it up a bit seems better if they are holding well in the spot and giving time to locate them in the scope.

Does anyone use a bigger reticule than a 42mm and does the extra light gathering make a difference with a spot?

I seem to be going a bit light insensitive and find when I get tired it’s difficult to see the bunnies and the eyes, was wondering if a bigger scope is going to help. Any thoughts please.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #1 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 1:26pm
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If you mean by bigger a higher power I would doubt it would help. With my 4.5/14 Loopie I mostly only use 6 or 8 power 14 is too much at night with the closer distances and glare from the light. Sounds like you need a better quality scope with better optics. Never used an illuminated reticle mostly because I never felt a need for one but other peoples ideas will differ Smiley
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #2 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 1:38pm
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Tikka T3 wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 1:26pm:
If you mean by bigger a higher power I would doubt it would help. With my 4.5/14 Loopie I mostly only use 6 or 8 power 14 is too much at night with the closer distances and glare from the light. Sounds like you need a better quality scope with better optics. Never used an illuminated reticle mostly because I never felt a need for one but other peoples ideas will differ Smiley


I meant more light gathering.. a 50mm or so. I dont need bigger magnification as nothing is beyond 50 m and x8 is heaps.

  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #3 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:04pm
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I've got a Nikko Stirling Platinum Nighteater, they're nice for the price and you can get illuminated models down to 4x with a 44 objective.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #4 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:07pm
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If a 42mm sccope doesn't gather in enogh light then going bigger still won't help. Two suggestions get a brighter light Wink or as I said a better quality scope. Have you tried this scope in the evening to see what it's light gathering capabilities are compared to the scope on your .243. Compare the reticles as well if the one on the .243 is thicker and you can see it better then a scope with thicker 'hairs  an illuminted reticle might be the go. It's really a matter of trying the options and finding the right problem.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #5 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:15pm
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headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 1:05pm:
Does anyone use a bigger reticule than a 42mm and does the extra light gathering make a difference with a spot?


I'm running a Mueller APV 4.5 x 14 x 40 on my HM2



and a Hawke 3.5 x 10 x 50 on my .22

ignore the camera  Grin

to be honest I don't notice much difference in light gathering between the two, but like the advantage of being able to zoom into a rabbit/possum that's lit up.

I use a Fenix TK11 on a nylon mscope mount from Deal Extreme for $4 and this combo works well for me. Best long range night shot I've done was last weekend on a possum at a guess 100m with the Mueller scope. It worked a treat.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #6 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:32pm
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I have the same problem, can shoot possums from 50+ meters no worries and then miss half of my shots from 5m because i can't see the crosshairs.

I purchased this and will mount tommorrow, i'm hoping the red/green illumination will help, i'll keep you posted. For ~50 bucks it worth a shot. The review is by a guy on the air gun forums, contacted him and he said it was a pretty decent scope for the price.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13016
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #7 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:04pm
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Vulcan wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:04pm:
I've got a Nikko Stirling Platinum Nighteater, they're nice for the price and you can get illuminated models down to 4x with a 44 objective.


Ill have another look at them. Gave up on Nikko Stirling about 5 years back when I bought a dud. Thought they were terrible but they have upped their game since then Id think..
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #8 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:06pm
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Tikka T3 wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:07pm:
If a 42mm sccope doesn't gather in enogh light then going bigger still won't help. Two suggestions get a brighter light Wink or as I said a better quality scope. Have you tried this scope in the evening to see what it's light gathering capabilities are compared to the scope on your .243. Compare the reticles as well if the one on the .243 is thicker and you can see it better then a scope with thicker 'hairs  an illuminted reticle might be the go. It's really a matter of trying the options and finding the right problem.


I cant go a brighter light, alrady about as bright as it comes. Im using a red filter over it and notice the red eyes are much easier to see in teh long tussock now that IM getting used to it. At first I thought Id gone blind. but now can pick up the eyes, red reflection more easily..
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #9 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:06pm
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What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #10 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:08pm
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KScott_NZ wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:15pm:
headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 1:05pm:
Does anyone use a bigger reticule than a 42mm and does the extra light gathering make a difference with a spot?


I'm running a Mueller APV 4.5 x 14 x 40 on my HM2



and a Hawke 3.5 x 10 x 50 on my .22

ignore the camera  Grin

to be honest I don't notice much difference in light gathering between the two, but like the advantage of being able to zoom into a rabbit/possum that's lit up.

I use a Fenix TK11 on a nylon mscope mount from Deal Extreme for $4 and this combo works well for me. Best long range night shot I've done was last weekend on a possum at a guess 100m with the Mueller scope. It worked a treat.


Which has the sharper optics?

Any preference in thecross hair type.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #11 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:14pm
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Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......


Youve always been most generous..  Wink

On second thoughts , just had a look at the price Grin
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #12 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:15pm
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I used to have a cheapie 4x on my .22 which was fine in the day but gloomy and hard to see at night.  I upgraded to a leupold 4x and the difference is remarkable.  The leupold is still nothing particularly special as it's an older one which I think is single coated or at least only multi coated on the exterior lens surfaces.

I have pondered this a few times and here are my thoughts:
Low magnification is better at night.  4 or 6 is all you need.

A better quality scope with better coatings is better than a large objective cheap scope.

On the overseas forums they talk about using a german no 4 reticle.

This has big thick bold crosshairs on the outside and reasonably thin ones in the inside.  That lets you shoot targets in the day and bracket the animal with the bold outer posts in the gloom.

The eurpoeans know more about hunting at night than the yanks as it's legal in europe but not in the states.  American scope design reflects this.  It's apparently quite common to hunt by moonlight in europe.  They use things like 50mm zeiss scopes.

Illuminated reticle is all good but the fact that the illumination module is only covered by a years warranty has always put me off.  Also the illumination kills your night vision.  Probably doesn't matter if you are using a spotlight.

Fixed power scopes are always brighter than vari power and the vari power adds two more lenses.  Same with AO and glass etched reticles.
I have seen it stated that the leupold 6x42 is the brightest scope they make because of this.

I brought a second hand leupold 6x42 M8 because of this, managed to break it and had it replaced with a leupold 6x42 FX3.  The FX3 is noticeable brighter due to the better coatings.

Ballistic reticles are a bit of a gimmick.  Particularly on vari powers where the holdover points change when you change magnification.  You are better off with a standard reticle.  This still allows you to holdover e.g. half way between the cross hairs and the bottom post, the bottom post, a small distance under the bottom post etc.

As tikka T3 said get a brighter light.  I have a RQ led torch and a lightforce 170 and while the RQ is usable and a great light the difference is literally like night and day.  Having a gun mounted light helps as well as it means the light is always perfectly aligned.

With subs your maximum range on a good day is going to be 120m.  With a 4x thats the same as iron sites at 30m.  With a 6x it's the same as iron sites at 20m.  Thats enough magnification in my book.

If it was me, I would trade features for quality, buy either a fixed 6 or a fixed 4.  Get a decent brand like leupold, zeiss conquest, vortex, weaver, bushnell or burris and get a reticle like the german no 4 or a german no 1 with bold outer posts.  PM gr8fulldoug and see what he has to say as hes the man for this sort of thing.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #13 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:16pm
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KScott_NZ wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:15pm:
headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 1:05pm:
Does anyone use a bigger reticule than a 42mm and does the extra light gathering make a difference with a spot?


to be honest I don't notice much difference in light gathering between the two, but like the advantage of being able to zoom into a rabbit/possum that's lit up.



you don't see the difference because they are both shit scopes.  Crap + Crap = Crap Wink
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #14 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:23pm
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MassiveAttack wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:15pm:
I used to have a cheapie 4x on my .22 which was fine in the day but gloomy and hard to see at night.  I upgraded to a leupold 4x and the difference is remarkable.  The leupold is still nothing particularly special as it's an older one which I think is single coated or at least only multi coated on the exterior lens surfaces.

I have pondered this a few times and here are my thoughts:
Low magnification is better at night.  4 or 6 is all you need.

A better quality scope with better coatings is better than a large objective cheap scope.

On the overseas forums they talk about using a german no 4 reticle.

This has big thick bold crosshairs on the outside and reasonably thin ones in the inside.  That lets you shoot targets in the day and bracket the animal with the bold outer posts in the gloom.

The eurpoeans know more about hunting at night than the yanks as it's legal in europe but not in the states.  American scope design reflects this.  It's apparently quite common to hunt by moonlight in europe.  They use things like 50mm zeiss scopes.

Illuminated reticle is all good but the fact that the illumination module is only covered by a years warranty has always put me off.  Also the illumination kills your night vision.  Probably doesn't matter if you are using a spotlight.

Fixed power scopes are always brighter than vari power and the vari power adds two more lenses.  Same with AO and glass etched reticles.
I have seen it stated that the leupold 6x42 is the brightest scope they make because of this.


I brought a second hand leupold 6x42 M8 because of this, managed to break it and had it replaced with a leupold 6x42 FX3.  The FX3 is noticeable brighter due to the better coatings.

Ballistic reticles are a bit of a gimmick.  Particularly on vari powers where the holdover points change when you change magnification.  You are better off with a standard reticle.  This still allows you to holdover e.g. half way between the cross hairs and the bottom post, the bottom post, a small distance under the bottom post etc.

As tikka T3 said get a brighter light.  I have a RQ led torch and a lightforce 170 and while the RQ is usable and a great light the difference is literally like night and day.  Having a gun mounted light helps as well as it means the light is always perfectly aligned.

With subs your maximum range on a good day is going to be 120m.  With a 4x thats the same as iron sites at 30m.  With a 6x it's the same as iron sites at 20m.  Thats enough magnification in my book.

If it was me, I would trade features for quality, buy either a fixed 6 or a fixed 4.  Get a decent brand like leupold, zeiss conquest, vortex, weaver, bushnell or burris and get a reticle like the german no 4 or a german no 1 with bold outer posts.  PM gr8fulldoug and see what he has to say as hes the man for this sort of thing.


Theres a lot of info there, thanks for that. Ill heed teh fixed power option as being brighter, thats food for thought. As to the spot. Im using a 170 lightforce with a 100w bulb. Its bright, but Im still abit worried about my nightvision. I dont see the milky way as I remember, which is a bit of a worry.  Lips Sealed Thats why Ive got to optimize everything else.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #15 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:23pm
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Sold out at the moment but this would be my pic.

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/zeiss.pl?page=521405

I have seen ex demo units go for as little as a couple of hundred USD from Doug.  They offer a good range of bold and/or illuminated reticles.

To get a german no 4 in a leupold 4x or 6x you need to go through the custom shop which adds cost.  They do offer the heavy duplex but it's not quite as good as the crosshairs are fatter and the outer posts are thinner than the german no 4.

The reason that the german reticles are called german is that they do a lot of night hunting which the yanks don't do as it's illegal for most game species in the states.

Edit: There is also the Trijicon range of scopes with their radioactive illuminated reticle and bible references stamped on the side.  Not cheap but they are apparently the bomb.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #16 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 8:28pm
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What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......



Yep! That's just what you need. About 5000 bunnies will cover that. I should have given you a go with my wee Fenix the other night Stephen, the little buggers seemed to hold in that O.K. after I'd found them with the big light.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #17 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 8:49pm
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Benelli boy wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 8:28pm:
Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......



Yep! That's just what you need. About 5000 bunnies will cover that. I should have given you a go with my wee Fenix the other night Stephen, the little buggers seemed to hold in that O.K. after I'd found them with the big light.


umm at the kill rate we were getting I should have that paid off in about 5 years and just enough left over for a short retirement. Grin Things have improved. That was my worst night.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #18 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 9:22pm
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headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:14pm:
Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......


Youve always been most generous..  Wink

On second thoughts , just had a look at the price Grin

Thats only 1500 bunnies HC go for it. Grin Grin
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #19 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 9:29pm
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Trout wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 9:22pm:
headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:14pm:
Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......


Youve always been most generous..  Wink

On second thoughts , just had a look at the price Grin

Thats only 1500 bunnies HC go for it. Grin Grin


Dont tell me to get a Tasco.  Grin
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #20 - Feb 18th, 2010 at 9:32pm
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you know how good a tasco is,looks like il have to tag along so you can use my nigth vision eyes  Cool
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #21 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:13am
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headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:08pm:
Which has the sharper optics?

Any preference in thecross hair type.


To my eye optics wise they're pretty much the same. No milkyness when zoomed up.

In a weird way crosshair reticle, I like them both as they do their job. The Mueller with the sharp 30/30 on the HM2


but the Hawke with mildot because when I need to do longer range on the .22 I use them


When shooting the HM2 longer range it's still point and click for me, for the .22 the mildots are handy for drop. Ignore the flare, etc in the photos, I'm still playing around trying to sort out positioning for scope cam videos.

crzy-man, awesome work at living up to your name and great input to the thread. Well done.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #22 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 1:11am
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I don't want to upset anyone but if you want the best light (as you asked for) we are talking about the three big europeand brands and bigger is better. I have tryed most of them and I would say you can't get any better light them zeiss varipoint 3-12x56.

But would I pay 3 500 dollar for a scoope for the 22? Not a chans in h*ll. I would probarbly go for a old fixed swarro or zeiss in 4x42, 6x42, 7x50 or a 8x56 depending on how important the light is. Over here you can get hold of that kind of scoopes for 400-600 dollars. 

  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #23 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 7:39am
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KScott_NZ wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:13am:
headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:08pm:
Which has the sharper optics?

Any preference in thecross hair type.


To my eye optics wise they're pretty much the same. No milkyness when zoomed up.

In a weird way crosshair reticle, I like them both as they do their job. The Mueller with the sharp 30/30 on the HM2


but the Hawke with mildot because when I need to do longer range on the .22 I use them


When shooting the HM2 longer range it's still point and click for me, for the .22 the mildots are handy for drop. Ignore the flare, etc in the photos, I'm still playing around trying to sort out positioning for scope cam videos.

crzy-man, awesome work at living up to your name and great input to the thread. Well done.


I gave advice on the best scope for the job unlike you.  You gave advice on what you "could" use on a limited budget that work's "ok". 

Both those photo's are out of focus and blurey (could be the camera but I dought it), this may be sharp optic's in your eye's but until you pick up a good scope and look through you have no idea what your on about.


  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #24 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 8:07am
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Eriksson wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 1:11am:
I don't want to upset anyone but if you want the best light (as you asked for) we are talking about the three big europeand brands and bigger is better. I have tryed most of them and I would say you can't get any better light them zeiss varipoint 3-12x56.

But would I pay 3 500 dollar for a scoope for the 22? Not a chans in h*ll. I would probarbly go for a old fixed swarro or zeiss in 4x42, 6x42, 7x50 or a 8x56 depending on how important the light is. Over here you can get hold of that kind of scoopes for 400-600 dollars.  




Are you talking NZ $$
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #25 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 8:08am
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KScott_NZ wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:13am:
headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:08pm:
Which has the sharper optics?

Any preference in thecross hair type.


To my eye optics wise they're pretty much the same. No milkyness when zoomed up.

In a weird way crosshair reticle, I like them both as they do their job. The Mueller with the sharp 30/30 on the HM2


but the Hawke with mildot because when I need to do longer range on the .22 I use them


When shooting the HM2 longer range it's still point and click for me, for the .22 the mildots are handy for drop. Ignore the flare, etc in the photos, I'm still playing around trying to sort out positioning for scope cam videos.

crzy-man, awesome work at living up to your name and great input to the thread. Well done.


Nice pics KScott, the hare is a cracker.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #26 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 8:53am
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Yeah, the hare flopped over moment later, without a twitch.

crzy-man, I'm not going to derail a thread for you, but your input of "I gave advice on the best scope for the job unlike you" is "crap, crap crap" ? Uh huh, sure. A scope costing nearly $5000.  Roll Eyes

As I pointed out but you've obviously skipped reading, ignore the quality of the photos as I was still playing around with settings of my scope cam. I assumed normal people wouldn't use the scope photos solely as a buying guide for quality, considering how challenging it is to take a photo through a scope while still shooting out in the field. Obviously my expectations were set too high for some.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #27 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 9:26am
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In scale of importance-
1/Small difference in lens size up from 40 to 56 a bit less than 100% more light gathering.
2/Lens coatings are important.
90% vs 95% top end makes a diferenc. Can't really identify with 90%
3/and then include something like Zeiss T coating for a bit more improvement.
Anything with assembled in USA on won't have that.

Cranking out the diopter helps a bit but start to loose resolution.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #28 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 9:34am
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primer wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 9:26am:
In scale of importance-
1/Small difference in lens size up from 40 to 56 a bit less than 100% more light gathering.
2/Lens coatings are important.
90% vs 95% top end makes a diferenc. Can't really identify with 90%
3/and then include something like Zeiss T coating for a bit more improvement.
Anything with assembled in USA on won't have that.

Cranking out the diopter helps a bit but start to loose resolution.


The bigger lens size means thescope is going to be mounted a little higher over the barrel? Is this going to be a disadvantage shooting short distances, say under 30-40 m. Im talking about head shooting so a relativly small target.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #29 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 9:41am
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I only hunt NI deer... Smiley
Its only 8mm though. 40 to 56.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #30 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 9:46am
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headcase wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 8:07am:
Eriksson wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 1:11am:
I don't want to upset anyone but if you want the best light (as you asked for) we are talking about the three big europeand brands and bigger is better. I have tryed most of them and I would say you can't get any better light them zeiss varipoint 3-12x56.

But would I pay 3 500 dollar for a scoope for the 22? Not a chans in h*ll. I would probarbly go for a old fixed swarro or zeiss in 4x42, 6x42, 7x50 or a 8x56 depending on how important the light is. Over here you can get hold of that kind of scoopes for 400-600 dollars.  




Are you talking NZ $$


Yep thats kiwidollar. At the moment there's a swarovski 4x32 for 450$ and a zeiss 8x56 for 550$ for sale on the bigest secondhand site.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #31 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 10:29am
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the exit size of the scope matters as well

think from memory 7mm is about the average max that a human eye is open (at night)

after that the light from the scope is wasted - some people have larger sizes (especially when younger) up to 9mm - and sadly it does reduce over time with age -  different for each person though
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #32 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 10:49am
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Thats why they go to 8x56. It increases the size mainly for ID.
Tell if you have a big SI deer or not. Smiley
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #33 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 10:52am
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headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:06pm:
Tikka T3 wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:07pm:
If a 42mm sccope doesn't gather in enogh light then going bigger still won't help. Two suggestions get a brighter light Wink or as I said a better quality scope. Have you tried this scope in the evening to see what it's light gathering capabilities are compared to the scope on your .243. Compare the reticles as well if the one on the .243 is thicker and you can see it better then a scope with thicker 'hairs  an illuminted reticle might be the go. It's really a matter of trying the options and finding the right problem.


I cant go a brighter light, alrady about as bright as it comes. Im using a red filter over it and notice the red eyes are much easier to see in teh long tussock now that IM getting used to it. At first I thought Id gone blind. but now can pick up the eyes, red reflection more easily..

That comment was made tongue in cheeks hence the Smiley sometimes a duller light can make a difference.

Rereading your post there is about 4 issues that need looking at.
The first is the light holding the rabbits I was going to suggest a filter but you are already doing that. If they are still not holding try a less powerful light sometimes that doesn't spook them like a strong light.
Also the scope itself needs to be looked at you haven't said what make but since it is a cheapie the quality might not be up to it or it may just be a dud. The reticle sounds like it is too fine so like I said try a thicker one if you want an illuminated reticle try and have a play with one first you might not like them. It sounds like you are considering buying another scope so sort the reticle out before buying and stay with a 40mm it's heaps for night shooting and the distances you are shooting especially with subs.
And the last is (and you can kick my arse next time I see you) it sounds like a visit to an optician is due Smiley
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #34 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 11:27am
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Eriksson wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 1:11am:
I don't want to upset anyone but if you want the best light (as you asked for) we are talking about the three big europeand brands and bigger is better. I have tryed most of them and I would say you can't get any better light them zeiss varipoint 3-12x56.

But would I pay 3 500 dollar for a scoope for the 22? Not a chans in h*ll. I would probarbly go for a old fixed swarro or zeiss in 4x42, 6x42, 7x50 or a 8x56 depending on how important the light is. Over here you can get hold of that kind of scoopes for 400-600 dollars.  



+1 what you said.

+1 what crazy man said.  I can see lots of edge distortion.  Might just be the photo but I doubt it.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #35 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:33pm
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Tikka T3 wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 10:52am:
headcase wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 3:06pm:
Tikka T3 wrote on Feb 18th, 2010 at 2:07pm:
If a 42mm sccope doesn't gather in enogh light then going bigger still won't help. Two suggestions get a brighter light Wink or as I said a better quality scope. Have you tried this scope in the evening to see what it's light gathering capabilities are compared to the scope on your .243. Compare the reticles as well if the one on the .243 is thicker and you can see it better then a scope with thicker 'hairs  an illuminted reticle might be the go. It's really a matter of trying the options and finding the right problem.


I cant go a brighter light, alrady about as bright as it comes. Im using a red filter over it and notice the red eyes are much easier to see in teh long tussock now that IM getting used to it. At first I thought Id gone blind. but now can pick up the eyes, red reflection more easily..

That comment was made tongue in cheeks hence the Smiley sometimes a duller light can make a difference.

Rereading your post there is about 4 issues that need looking at.
The first is the light holding the rabbits I was going to suggest a filter but you are already doing that. If they are still not holding try a less powerful light sometimes that doesn't spook them like a strong light.
Also the scope itself needs to be looked at you haven't said what make but since it is a cheapie the quality might not be up to it or it may just be a dud. The reticle sounds like it is too fine so like I said try a thicker one if you want an illuminated reticle try and have a play with one first you might not like them. It sounds like you are considering buying another scope so sort the reticle out before buying and stay with a 40mm it's heaps for night shooting and the distances you are shooting especially with subs.
And the last is (and you can kick my arse next time I see you) it sounds like a visit to an optician is due Smiley


A trip to the opticians is planned. I’m hoping I won’t have to hunt Tahr with a white cane.  Huh

Actually I don’t hold the light directly on them at all. Just the peripheral light has to be enough, or they will bolt. The skill is in the balance of minimum light and speedy target acquisition. I’m shooting them one handed over a rest, and holding the spot in the left hand.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #36 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:48pm
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It might not be all the scopes fault then but as much spooky bunnies and too strong a light. Someone suggested a led light. Might be worth trying they don't seem to have the harsh glare of a spotlight. Might as well try these things before buying another scope and the discovering that was tha problem all the time. Might help keep you in Amina's good books after buying the Ruger Smiley
Gogod luck at the opticians and I can't se a white cane stopping you anyway Grin
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #37 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:49pm
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I found that the Weaver Grandslam 3-10x40 a good scope for the price ....Big step up in low light over the burris in finding the cross hair and huge step up over the Tasco I had years ago....I have since sold my GS weavers but the increase in light gathering and clearaty is not as big a step as the step in dollars spent Undecided

The lower the power the more light gathered but of coarse the smaller the target, The V16 weaver I like as well for the $$...but not as repeatable as the GS.

The cheap scopes are shockers generaly at low light......Iluminated reticle is good but don't scimp on glass quality over illuminated Wink
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #38 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 1:15pm
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leathel wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 12:49pm:
I found that the Weaver Grandslam 3-10x40 a good scope for the price ....Big step up in low light over the burris in finding the cross hair and huge step up over the Tasco I had years ago....I have since sold my GS weavers but the increase in light gathering and clearaty is not as big a step as the step in dollars spent Undecided

The lower the power the more light gathered but of coarse the smaller the target, The V16 weaver I like as well for the $$...but not as repeatable as the GS.

The cheap scopes are shockers generaly at low light......Iluminated reticle is good but don't scimp on glass quality over illuminated Wink

Smiley
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #39 - Feb 19th, 2010 at 3:59pm
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+1, you have to spend around $500 before you get into the mid range of quality for scopes.  You get a lot more for your money by importing than buying locally.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #40 - Feb 20th, 2010 at 10:07pm
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Hi HC, their seems to be two points to your question, one of reticle design and the other of the size/magnification of the scope.  I think the reticle has been answered, and is probably the second of the two points you should look at. 

FareGame makes a very good point:
FareGame wrote on Feb 19th, 2010 at 10:29am:
the exit size of the scope matters as well

think from memory 7mm is about the average max that a human eye is open (at night)

after that the light from the scope is wasted - some people have larger sizes (especially when younger) up to 9mm - and sadly it does reduce over time with age -  different for each person though


The way to determine exit size of the scope is by dividing the magnification by the object size, i.e. a fixed scope of 10*40mm, will have a exit size of 4mm, while a fixed scope of 4*40mm will have a exit size of 10mm.  As Faregame mentions, as we age the our eyes change and we can use less of the available exit size, regardless of the exit size our pupil can only take in so much.  So a exit size of 10mm is actually wasted, I would recommend an exit size of around 5 or 6mm.  What this means is that you're only paying for what you acually use, and as you can see a 4*40 is a waste, get something in a 4*32, you'll pay less - or pay the same and get better glass.

Something like this:

http://www.opticsbestbuy.com/ZEISS-Conquest-Rifle-Scope-4x32-Z-Plex-5214059920.h...

But with Reticle 4 would be ideal (paralax is 100 yards though).
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #41 - Feb 21st, 2010 at 10:58pm
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Hello Headcase,

Don´t know the availability of used european scopes in N.Z. but after my latest sessions with a couple of friends shooting Hare and Fox in overcast moonlight conditions - I have seen the light Shocked

All european glass beat my illuminated Leupold VXIII, hands down. (actually, my Burris Black Diamond at 6x was better than the Leupy)
It was a mixed bunch of scopes involved, new German/Austrian variable scopes and some old 4x, 6x and 8x. My absolute favourite (being a cheap bastard) was a Zeiss 6x42 German No 4, that in my eyes had the best glass/reticle combination (of the affordable scopes)

An old german or a new semi-german would do the trick Wink
Good luck at the optician....

Gerry Atrick
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #42 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 8:24am
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Gerry Atric wrote on Feb 21st, 2010 at 10:58pm:
Hello Headcase,

Don´t know the availability of used european scopes in N.Z. but after my latest sessions with a couple of friends shooting Hare and Fox in overcast moonlight conditions - I have seen the light Shocked

All european glass beat my illuminated Leupold VXIII, hands down. (actually, my Burris Black Diamond at 6x was better than the Leupy)
It was a mixed bunch of scopes involved, new German/Austrian variable scopes and some old 4x, 6x and 8x. My absolute favourite (being a cheap bastard) was a Zeiss 6x42 German No 4, that in my eyes had the best glass/reticle combination (of the affordable scopes)

An old german or a new semi-german would do the trick Wink
Good luck at the optician....

Gerry Atrick
 


Were you also using a spot or just the moonlight?
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #43 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 8:39am
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It has to have the big lens and good glass.
No substitutes.
Nothing worse than can't quite indentify it and let it go.
I have used a 42(90%) and its happened - not with the 50 to 56 Kahles or Ziess (95%)
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #44 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 9:43am
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primer wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 8:39am:
It has to have the big lens and good glass.
No substitutes.
Nothing worse than can't quite indentify it and let it go.I have used a 42(90%) and its happened - not with the 50 to 56 Kahles or Ziess (95%)


thats frustrating alright. One spents enough time spotting them.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #45 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 9:47am
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headcase wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 8:24am:
Gerry Atric wrote on Feb 21st, 2010 at 10:58pm:
Hello Headcase,

Don´t know the availability of used european scopes in N.Z. but after my latest sessions with a couple of friends shooting Hare and Fox in overcast moonlight conditions - I have seen the light Shocked

All european glass beat my illuminated Leupold VXIII, hands down. (actually, my Burris Black Diamond at 6x was better than the Leupy)
It was a mixed bunch of scopes involved, new German/Austrian variable scopes and some old 4x, 6x and 8x. My absolute favourite (being a cheap bastard) was a Zeiss 6x42 German No 4, that in my eyes had the best glass/reticle combination (of the affordable scopes)

An old german or a new semi-german would do the trick Wink
Good luck at the optician....

Gerry Atrick
 


Were you also using a spot or just the moonlight?


Told you I was a cheap bastard - only the moonlight reflecting the snow! I´m also a law-abiding character, as spot-lighting is forbidden in this Mekka of hunting-laws (Sweden)

Gerry Atric
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #46 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:35am
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Theres nothing wrong with moonlight and snow. Weve spotted deer at 200m with the  eyes, on snow with full moon. Easy as.. Great way to hunt
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #47 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 12:05pm
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Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......


Unfortunately poor advice. Large tube doesnt allow more light. It only allows greater errector tube movement.

A larger objective will allow more light. This combined with appropriate power to give larger exit pupil for easy target aquisition/head positioning would be your best bet. Add to that a reticle that is easily seen or a lit reticle which has a low illumination to reduce glare.
  

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Reply #48 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 4:10pm
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When you mentioned that varipower and AO add more glass, reducing transmission, did you also say that etched glass reticles add another layer of glass?

Thanks for all the info.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #49 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 4:48pm
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Thats how I understand it.  The reticle is etched onto another piece of glass where as a wire reticle doesn't have that piece of glass.  Leupold use platinum wire.  At one stage older scopes used spider silk.

Wire reticles are limited in their shape.  You can't have just a dot in the middle for example as there is nothing to support it.  Most of the modern fancy ballistic plex la de da reticles are etched for that reason as it's hard to support the horizontal lines that are the holdover points.  I think mil dot type reticles can be wire as they just attach dots to the wire.

I think there might even be a third method where metal is deposited onto the glass.

One easy way to tell is to look into the scope with light behind you.  If it's a wire one the light will reflect off the wire giving it a gold tint.  This can actually be useful in low light, sort of like a natural illuminated reticle (assuming you have a light source).

Something like the leupold Boon and Crocket reticle has to be etched based on the amount of unsupported lines it has.

When I got my Leupold FX3 6.42 LR scope I asked the nice lady from Leupold if it was etched (it has two holdover dots so I though it might be).  She said yes but it still turns gold with the light behind it so that can't be right.  Maybe it's the electro deposited method where metal is deposited onto glass (as opposed to a line being etched onto glass).  It might even be a combination of the two as I don't think the middle goes gold with light behind it.  No info on the leupold site that I can find.

How much difference it all makes is a matter of opinion.  Zeiss scopes are all etched and as you can see from this thread they are the recommended scope for night hunting.  Most of the light loss by reflection happens on the outside lenses which is why in cheaper scopes they are the only ones that are coated.

With any lens (vari power / side focus AO) I believe it's a minimum of two lenses as just adding one would make the image upside down.

Side focus AO has extra lens elements.  Regular AO just moves the existing objective lens.

There is some useful info on the wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticle
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #50 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 4:59pm
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headcase wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:35am:
Theres nothing wrong with moonlight and snow. Weve spotted deer at 200m with the  eyes, on snow with full moon. Easy as.. Great way to hunt

And 2ks away moon walking across the snow thru the binos. Shocked
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #51 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 9:38pm
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Digit wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 12:05pm:
Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......


Unfortunately poor advice. Large tube doesnt allow more light. It only allows greater errector tube movement.

A larger objective will allow more light. This combined with appropriate power to give larger exit pupil for easy target aquisition/head positioning would be your best bet. Add to that a reticle that is easily seen or a lit reticle which has a low illumination to reduce glare.


Unfortunately followed by further poor advice, big objectives are only required for high power scopes.  Buying a big objective scope with small power - it's just burning money.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #52 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:02pm
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It's not quite that black and white.  It's true that the average human eye can only take in 7mm of light etc.

But, if you have more than that, say 9mm of exit pupil then you have a bit more leeway on exactly where you place your eye i.e. it can be 2mm off to one side and you will still get the full 7mm into your eye.

It's basically the left and right version of a generous eye box.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #53 - Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:14pm
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MassiveAttack wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:02pm:
It's not quite that black and white.  It's true that the average human eye can only take in 7mm of light etc.

But, if you have more than that, say 9mm of exit pupil then you have a bit more leeway on exactly where you place your eye i.e. it can be 2mm off to one side and you will still get the full 7mm into your eye.

It's basically the left and right version of a generous eye box.


True enough, I was just trying to state it clearly in amongest all the 'nah mate, you need a 4*56' crap.  The point is, you're paying for that glass that you not necessarily using.  In my own scope I purchased recently the 40mm and 50mm objective versions were a grand apart in price (windage and elevation knobs were different which accounted for some of that), so at 14 x magnification on the 40mm version, I have an exit pupil of 3mm (rounded up), verses a exit pupil of 3.6mm, however at it's lowest setting of 4.5* (which I would use for night shooting) the same numbers are 9mm (rounded) and 11mm, both of which are larger than my eye can actually use, end result, I saved myself a grand and got a scope I could utilise.

Recommendation, get a Zeiss 4*32, with an exit pupil of 8mm, which is probably 3mm more than your eyes (this diminsions as we age) can acutally utilise.  And enjoy that feeling of not throwing your money away.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #54 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 7:46am
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theoddfellows wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 9:38pm:
Digit wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 12:05pm:
Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......


Unfortunately poor advice. Large tube doesnt allow more light. It only allows greater errector tube movement.

A larger objective will allow more light. This combined with appropriate power to give larger exit pupil for easy target aquisition/head positioning would be your best bet. Add to that a reticle that is easily seen or a lit reticle which has a low illumination to reduce glare.


Unfortunately followed by further poor advice, big objectives are only required for high power scopes.  Buying a big objective scope with small power - it's just burning money.  


When night shooting the extra leeway regards head/eye position from a larger exit pupil is often helpful. You are looking at targets that can be hard to see and may be directly above you - ie a possum - where your natural eye position is completely different and need to quickly find the target. Each to their own.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #55 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 9:35am
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Digit wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 7:46am:
theoddfellows wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 9:38pm:
Digit wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 12:05pm:
Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......


Unfortunately poor advice. Large tube doesnt allow more light. It only allows greater errector tube movement.

A larger objective will allow more light. This combined with appropriate power to give larger exit pupil for easy target aquisition/head positioning would be your best bet. Add to that a reticle that is easily seen or a lit reticle which has a low illumination to reduce glare.


Unfortunately followed by further poor advice, big objectives are only required for high power scopes.  Buying a big objective scope with small power - it's just burning money.  


When night shooting the extra leeway regards head/eye position from a larger exit pupil is often helpful. You are looking at targets that can be hard to see and may be directly above you - ie a possum - where your natural eye position is completely different and need to quickly find the target. Each to their own.


Thats a good point, and when headshots mean money, and every non kill, because you took to long to get a bead on the bunnie, is costing you money, time, frustration and adding grey hairs,  spending the extra buck is an investment.  Wink
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #56 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 10:04am
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Then start looking at the illuminated.
Usually hunting lowlight scopes has a thick reticle but illuminated is better.
Though the cost goes up more.

Not trying to argue against physics(eye dillation and exit pupil aside) but if offered the fixed 4x32 vs 8x56 for lowlight hunting the 8x56's are used specifically for that.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #57 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 10:35am
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Nightforce NXS 8-32x56 + LED Lenser P14 in a clamp worked just fine up to 75m.

Downgraded to NXS 2.5-10x32 + same P14 torch.
Works just fine.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #58 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 10:54am
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No real purpose for spending on a low light scope with a light.
Waste of moolah.

What Im trying to get across is something practical.
Take an old stag in a place that gets hunting pressure. Hes not going to be waiting after he sees some light flashing around.
To tell if said cunning stag is any good requires magnification beyond 4x
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #59 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 1:00pm
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headcase wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 9:35am:
Digit wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 7:46am:
theoddfellows wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 9:38pm:
Digit wrote on Feb 22nd, 2010 at 12:05pm:
Quote:
What you need for the "ideal" scope is a big IOR (40mm tube) with a lit reticle.  40mm tube will let in lots of light.........

http://www.valdada.com/product/7799bd3d-2c65-48aa-add0-7e3fce3894af.aspx

Don't say I don't help you out.......


Unfortunately poor advice. Large tube doesnt allow more light. It only allows greater errector tube movement.

A larger objective will allow more light. This combined with appropriate power to give larger exit pupil for easy target aquisition/head positioning would be your best bet. Add to that a reticle that is easily seen or a lit reticle which has a low illumination to reduce glare.


Unfortunately followed by further poor advice, big objectives are only required for high power scopes.  Buying a big objective scope with small power - it's just burning money.  


When night shooting the extra leeway regards head/eye position from a larger exit pupil is often helpful. You are looking at targets that can be hard to see and may be directly above you - ie a possum - where your natural eye position is completely different and need to quickly find the target. Each to their own.


Thats a good point, and when headshots mean money, and every non kill, because you took to long to get a bead on the bunnie, is costing you money, time, frustration and adding grey hairs,  spending the extra buck is an investment.  Wink

Then stop spending money,problem solved Grin Grin
  

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Thanks, MassiveAttack
Reply #60 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 3:31pm
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I hadn't thought about which glass was etched, but obviously it's gotta be another piece or you could never adjust it.  For two scopes at my price point, I'll go with the wire now.  But, I am sure that Zeiss makes a lovely scope.
  
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Re: Thanks, MassiveAttack
Reply #61 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 4:20pm
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Visiting Yank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 3:31pm:
I hadn't thought about which glass was etched, but obviously it's gotta be another piece or you could never adjust it.  For two scopes at my price point, I'll go with the wire now.  But, I am sure that Zeiss makes a lovely scope.


No wucking furries.  Everything I read about the Zeiss is good through (except Norway's one fogging up when he came to NZ).  I think coating make more difference than one extra bit of glass.

Which one did you end up deciding on?
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #62 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 6:17pm
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primer wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 10:54am:
No real purpose for spending on a low light scope with a light.
Waste of moolah.

What Im trying to get across is something practical.
Take an old stag in a place that gets hunting pressure. Hes not going to be waiting after he sees some light flashing around.
To tell if said cunning stag is any good requires magnification beyond 4x


You still need good light transmission when using a spot,  because one has only seconds to acquire the target, and head shoot it. Often all that can be seen with the eye is the red glow of an eye. Usefull is then, to be able to see a full outline of the head  using only the edge of the spot.  The spot can only be used to locate the quarry, directly spotlighting it results in said furry animal bolting 50% of the time. They don’t like have a bright light in the eye just like us. Don’t tell me I should positively identify my target please, we are talking rabbit and hare in Tussock at under 40 meters distance, and some other small furry creatures. No Kiwis around here.  Cheesy
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #63 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 6:44pm
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Digit wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 7:46am:
[quote author=theoddfellows link=1266451505/45#51 date=1266827905]
When night shooting the extra leeway regards head/eye position from a larger exit pupil is often helpful. You are looking at targets that can be hard to see and may be directly above you - ie a possum - where your natural eye position is completely different and need to quickly find the target. Each to their own.


A generous eye box, both in the left/right, up/down plane and forwards and backwards is highly underrated imho.  Most people just go for glass quality.  Thats important but so is being able to throw the rifle to your shoulder, standing or prone, wearing thin or thick clothing, wearing pack straps or not and instantly being able to see the scope picture.

When I went scope shopping last I looked at  burris FF II and leupold vx1.  I was expecting to buy the burris because all the advice I had read on here said the glass was better.  Thats true but holding them side by side it was obvious that the eye box on the leupold was much much more larger.  I ended up buying both a second hand 4 and 6 power for the same money as the vx I 3-9.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #64 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 6:52pm
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headcase wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 6:17pm:
primer wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 10:54am:
No real purpose for spending on a low light scope with a light.
Waste of moolah.

What Im trying to get across is something practical.
Take an old stag in a place that gets hunting pressure. Hes not going to be waiting after he sees some light flashing around.
To tell if said cunning stag is any good requires magnification beyond 4x


You still need good light transmission when using a spot,  because one has only seconds to acquire the target, and head shoot it. Often all that can be seen with the eye is the red glow of an eye. Usefull is then, to be able to see a full outline of the head  using only the edge of the spot.  The spot can only be used to locate the quarry, directly spotlighting it results in said furry animal bolting 50% of the time. They don’t like have a bright light in the eye just like us. Don’t tell me I should positively identify my target please, we are talking rabbit and hare in Tussock at under 40 meters distance, and other some other small furry creatures. No Kiwis around here.  Cheesy


I would agree with that.  The difference in the amount of light when in daylight vs the amount of light from a spotlight is massive.  It doesn't look that much because your eye adjusts.  Shining something light a light force around and it looks like daylight but it's just an illusion because your eye has adjusted.

Then you take losses due to reflection into account.  90% of the full 30,000 lumens of daylight is a lot more than 90% of 250 lumens from a led torch.  The remaining 27,000 lumens of daylight is more than enough to see clearly by whereas the 225 remaining lumens of a led torch may not be.

Many people who compare scopes in shops looking outside into full daylight have been fooled by that.  Your better off trying to read some text in a dark corner of a shop.

I spotlighted for years with a old shitter 4x on my .22 when upgraded to a luepold M8 4x (sill nothing flash in terms of glass).  The difference is nothing short of astounding.

I know everyone says that bright lights make game run away but most of my experience with rabbits shows that they get blinded and run in a random direction, often straight towards you.
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #65 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 8:40pm
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Yea ok even the end of the beam could be helped by a good scope but then why not just get a stronger torch....and then there's still an end of the beam...so can see the point Smiley
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #66 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 9:19pm
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Wow, this has actually turned into a useful discussion.  Why can't they all be like this.  Some really useful points here.
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #67 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 9:51pm
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MassiveAttack wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 6:44pm:
Digit wrote on Feb 23rd, 2010 at 7:46am:
[quote author=theoddfellows link=1266451505/45#51 date=1266827905]
When night shooting the extra leeway regards head/eye position from a larger exit pupil is often helpful. You are looking at targets that can be hard to see and may be directly above you - ie a possum - where your natural eye position is completely different and need to quickly find the target. Each to their own.


A generous eye box, both in the left/right, up/down plane and forwards and backwards is highly underrated imho.  Most people just go for glass quality.  Thats important but so is being able to throw the rifle to your shoulder, standing or prone, wearing thin or thick clothing, wearing pack straps or not and instantly being able to see the scope picture.

When I went scope shopping last I looked at  burris FF II and leupold vx1.  I was expecting to buy the burris because all the advice I had read on here said the glass was better.  Thats true but holding them side by side it was obvious that the eye box on the leupold was much much more larger.  I ended up buying both a second hand 4 and 6 power for the same money as the vx I 3-9.


First time I’ve heard that terminology. Interesting though. It
defines a scopes 3 dimensional visual capabilities.

length of eye relief x left/right, up/down plane = eyebox Grin

PS I agree with this statement 100%

"Most people just go for glass quality.  Thats important but so is being able to throw the rifle to your shoulder, standing or prone, wearing thin or thick clothing, wearing pack straps or not and instantly being able to see the scope picture."
(thanks Muz 257)
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #68 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 10:01pm
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I've tried quite a few over the years from fixed 4x40 to high end quality Euro Varipowers. I scored a Zeiss 2.5-10x48 Diavari *T - with German #4 reticule and it'll see me out. It left my Loopy and Burris for dead. The next best was my Khales 6x42 ZF 69 ex Army Sniper Scope (now retired to the spares shelf). Those good Euro scopes are just soooo clear to look through. Cool
  
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Re: best night scope
Reply #69 - Feb 23rd, 2010 at 11:06pm
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The new leupold FX/VX3 coatings are starting to approach the zeiss conquest in terms of quality.  Miles ahead of the FXI.  Still not a scratch on the top end german or nightforce glass though.

I haven't looked though much top end glass but at the tahr show they has some nikkon night eater and zeiss scopes on blank rifle stocks.  Absolutely no comparison.

My fx3 came with the long range duplex reticle which is a wide duplex with two holdover dots.  I haven't used it enough to decide yet but I find the two dots a little distracting as they are thicker than the crosshairs.  The only way to get a german no 3 into it is to send it to the custom shop.  I might do that at some stage.

German no 3 is better than the heavy duplex as the outside posts are thicker and the cross hairs are thinner.  No real disadvantage as far as I can see.

If I had my time again with the factory choices I think I would just get the standard duplex.

This is the leupold blurb on eyebox
http://www.leupold.com/lightbox/features/generous-eyebox/
  

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Re: best night scope
Reply #70 - Feb 24th, 2010 at 7:52am
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I sent an email to Zeiss asking them about the transmission difference in their T coatings.
Surpisingly sent back a practical- the human eye won't be able to pick up the difference..which stacks up since its getting up in small precentages. From 90 to 95% yes but less its getting harder.
Though at night if trying to count tines I think maybe yes can tell the difference.
There is plenty of contrast in them and the objects stand out more. Can remember the first time I saw a deer with one and it wasn't that far away but stood out so clearly I droped down the rifle thinking I'd see it by eye and it looked blank..nothing there. So somethings working well.
  
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