Fishnhunt New Zealands main hunting and Fishing Forum. millions of posts on fishing and hunting, dogs, 4x4 vehicles, outdoors and much more Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 100 Replies) 308 Subsonic (Read 32174 times)
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
308 Subsonic
Feb 11th, 2008 at 12:47am
Print Post  
Here is a brief synopsis of my recent experiances and theorys regarding the .308 subsonic.

Sorry if this one has been done to death but I couldn't find to many referances to it.

It started a while ago, while sitting around camp during inclement weather, being a little bored and wanting to do some informal target shootin or plinking. Full house loads were not desirable so I thought of very light plinking loads or gallery loads I could use in the .303 carbine I had at the time. I found Berrys prefered plated bullets do a .32 caliber suitable for 303 and are cheap so I got a box. Using just a Lee loader, I loaded these into brass previously fired in the 303 (to maintain a seal) first with only a Winchester LR primer. No good. Bullet lodged in the rifling, to heavy and long (83 grain HBWC). A .314 lead ball, lubed, might have been better but didn't get round to trying that.  Got a can of ADI AS30N shotgun powder then tried again with 1.5 grains of powder. A tiny pop and the bullet sailed out towards the target. Not having a chrony and watching it go, I thought it perhaps a bit quicker than my slingshot in velocity. That seemed about right for what I wanted but it only worked once! The other 1.5 grain loads didn't ignite. I was using wool wads to hold the powder down but that wasn't enough. Tried again with 5.1 grains and the ignition problem dissapeared but the noise level was high and there was an echo in the hills. I also found the bullets were starting to break up. Discovered that load was similar to a .32 H&R Magnum and those little 83 grain plated projectiles were moving at around 1600 fps and are not intended for that speed. Tried different loads from 2.5 to 4 grains and had inconsistant ignition below 3 grains of powder. On average, 3 out of 5 wouldn't fire. tried an alternative to the woollen wads, foam 3M ear plugs. Rolled up thin and dropped in the case after the powder and allowed to expand before seating the bullet. These held the powder down with their flat base. Now I had 100% ignition, every cartridge loaded with 2.1 grains and above would fire every time but there was inconsistancy again, this time with accuracy. Each shot felt a little stronger compared to wool wad loads, so I presumed the ear plugs raised the pressure slightly. Also the plugs would travel 50 yards or more and when recovered, were found intact but with the edges 'chewed' and scorched. I feel they were compressing on firing and 'rolling' up the barrel behind the bullet. I was getting 6 inch groups at 25 yards at best, a few fliers missing the target completly.
Time for some research
It was then that I discovered the world of subsonics. The more I learn't, the more I wanted to try. With suppressors being legal here in NZ, I chose to go down that path almost from the start. While I researched, the gun locker was emptied to fund the new project. But what caliber?
Subsonics are nothing new. The first guns were subsonic. Today, most pistols fire subsonic ammo, you can get subsonic .22 and your 44 or 45 caliber lever guns can fire subsonics. Most of the Cowboy action shooting is subsonic. (less than 1000fps average, temperature dependant)
The subsonic trajectory is also nothing new. I've heard it refered to a 'rainbow' trajectory. These larger caliber subsonic bullets have low energy, seldom exceeding 550ft/lbs at the muzzle but they do have momentum to travel through game at ranges of up to 400 yards, sometimes even further. They don't expand, just punch through. A long forgotten science on a comeback!
Trouble is, hitting a deer at 400 yards with a .44 magnum rifle is incredibly difficult. I tried hitting a 3 foot by 3 foot piece of corrogated iron with a .44 magnum at 350 yards (full loads) and the bullet hit a good 10 feet below. A subsonic .44 would be a good 20 feet below at that range. It's possible to do if the range is known and a milldot or ballistic plex type of scope is used but for my ability I would limit myself to 200 yards and just a 3 foot holdover. Much more managable, (most deer are shot within 100 yards anyway). But I want to be able to reach out and make a long shot if the occasion arises so even though I was nearly settled on a .44 magnum dedicated subsonic and suppressed rifle, I needed to have a dual purpose rifle. Something capable of 4oo yard shots on deer and suppressed for subsonics.
The Whisper range of cartridges and their clones are the modern subsonic kings. The most popular being the 300 Whisper or 221/308 and a NZ version, the 308 Murmur.
These cartridges fire heavy, long FMJ projectiles and have small, low capacity cases for the smaller powder charges but as they are primarily wildcats, the cases and barrels have to be made for your rifle although commercial cartridges and some rifles are available but not that common. I chose to to go for a military caliber, either 223, 7.62x39 or 308. I quickly ruled out 223 as a deer gun, the short Russian is better but not good enough for 400 yards so I settled on .308 for subsonics out to 200 yards and factory ammo out to 400 yards.
It didn't take to long to settle on a rifle. A visit to Serious Shooters and I walked out with a new Ruger M77 mk II,S/S with a McColl Eng full lengh suppressor. I also had a big container of the new Trailboss powder. An F1 chrony was ordered at the same time.
Now to find a suitable load for the original intention of plinking but this time those plinking rounds will be also used for deer hunting.
It will take a week or two before I can get on a range but when I do, I'll post my progress results if anybody is keen.
Anybody else with similar experiances?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Black Stag
Forum Senior
****
Offline


SUCCESS COMES IN A CAN,
NOT IN A CAN'T

Posts: 608
Location: Napier
Joined: Jul 30th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #1 - Feb 11th, 2008 at 9:38am
Print Post  
Hi MarkJ, I'm looking at doing the same with my .308 so obviously very keen to see your progress. There is quite alot of info on the net that you have no dought read. Will keep an eye on this thread.

Cheers BS
  

Live as if you were to die tomorrow, learn as if you were to live forever.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #2 - Feb 11th, 2008 at 9:59am
Print Post  
Thanks BS. I hope to add a scope to the kit this week. A mildot or ballistic-plex. First shoot next weekend.
cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bryce
Ex Member
*



Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #3 - Feb 11th, 2008 at 10:31am
Print Post  
While the loads I tried are not subsonic they may be interesting/useful to you or serve as a place to start for further experimanting.

In a 308 I loaded 110 grain round nose 30M1 carbine bullets and 10.0 grains of AP70.  I didn't chrony them but they ought to have been doing around 1600fps.  With this load I used no fillers at all and accuracy at 100 metres was very good out of my Kimber, they would easily shoot around the 1.5 inch mark.

A little less powder and a little heavier bullet would probably yield pretty decent results.

This is a good read with respect to these mild loads.  Note that AP70 is similar burn rate to Unique powder that is talked about in this article.  I have also used AP70 in a 22 Hornet, 17 Ackley Hornet, 17 Mach IV and 223 in reduced loads.           http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Universal%2030.htm

Be careful when using powders this fast a small amount makes a big difference in pressure.

Bryce
  
A Hunter's paradise is on our doorstep.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
jed
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 100
Location: Nelson
Joined: Jun 9th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #4 - Feb 11th, 2008 at 11:40am
Print Post  
I emailed ADI a while back when trail boss came out. I haven't got the powder yet but I'm curious to see how you get on as we have a case in common.  Here's what ADI had to say.

"The recommended  minimum  percentage fill of a 7mm-08 case will change
depending on the powder used. Faster burning rate powders will allow you to
place less in the case than a slower burning rate powder. ADI have not
developed any loads using Trail Boss or any other fast burning rate powders
therefore do not have this information.

Trail Boss will produce approximately 58cc/grain (1 grain of weight) of gas
or  890cc/gram.

Yours Sincerely
ADI Technical Centre"

I was after information on % case filling after a mate made an error in his reloading with ADI2208 in a 7mm-08, he misread the balance and loaded 16.5gr instead of 41.5gr. Shooting ceased after the first shot as it sounded subsonic, first thoughts were that there was no powder, we pulled a projectile and powder volume looked a little on the low side. Out of interest the shot was about ~3ft low at 200m.  This got me interested in subsonic loads for those occasions where there’s plenty of small game to stalk during the day and swap over to the high velocity rounds for the evening shot. All the advice given to me recommends a fast burning powder with a low bulk density to fill the case as much as possible to obtain a uniform burn.

Cheers,
Jed
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #5 - Feb 11th, 2008 at 1:50pm
Print Post  
During my research I found these powders would be suitable for subsonic loading in large capacity cases.

Titegroup
Unique
Red Dot
N310
Clays
H110
AP70
AS30N
Bullseye
WP-1450
perhaps, IMR SR4579
but I settled on Trailboss due to it's bulk

minimum of 6 grains for jacketed bullets, ussually between 7 and 8 grains for bullets up to 180-200 grain. Yes, powder measure is important.

I'm no expert on reloading, just reporting on what I've read, so please don't quote me but I did find it writtin somewhere, where the US military use 308 subsonics, with a 170 grain jacketed bullet and 6.8 grains of Red Dot. Don't know the velocity.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Trout
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Top NZ WhiteTail

Posts: 7801
Location: Southern Alps
Joined: Oct 4th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #6 - Feb 12th, 2008 at 10:51pm
Print Post  
where can you buy subsonic ammo for 308 .cheers trout
  

Shot a few deer,caugth some big trout and salmon
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #7 - Feb 13th, 2008 at 11:57am
Print Post  
Denis Coulter from Christchurch does subsonic reloads and offers them for sale. I've lost his contact so don't have a link. From memory his email is reloader at xtra.
cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Whisper
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 435
Location: Cambridge
Joined: Oct 12th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #8 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 5:10pm
Print Post  
Also look at this discussion thread - some good info and links there

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1199733888
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChrisF
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1572
Joined: Mar 23rd, 2007
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #9 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 5:46pm
Print Post  
Its a tricky thing 308 Win subsonic ,

I would advise any one to go the easy route ,

IE , use Trail boss , you cna get it in NZ now , as I am looking at a can of it as I type this .

Using 10-11grs almost fills the case up to the shoulder .

use magnum primers

Use the Lapua B416 subson bullet 200gr


Be aware you should be in the 180-220gr weight range , use with out can on to check to see if you stablise the bullet , bearing in mind 308 Win cal rifles have different twists , from 1-10 thru to 1-14 , this affects the weight bullet you can run , ( its bullet weight as will as shape ( bearing surface ) that dictates IF the twist rate WILL stablise the bullet you are shooting ) .


Also barrel/fiction/lenght pays a part in this , as you run very low velocites .



Also REALISE , that the actual twist you have , will determine HOW heavy you can use .

IE , if you have a fast twist barrel like 1-10 , the 200gr B416 should be OK , if you are 1-12 , look at 180gr or less , generally the shorter fatter bullets like RN , tend to stablise more than say a VLD bullet , again its a function of weight/lenght/bearing surface , that all combine to either stablise or NOT .

Always do load develpoement with out the suppressor/can ON , you are checking for speed consistancy & stablity ( ie NO keyholing , check close and at distance ) , other wise you may have a load that is not stable , and may go off line while still inside the suppressor , cause , baffle strike , and usually destorying the suppressor .

Later Chris
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
asterix
Ex Member
**



Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #10 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 9:08pm
Print Post  
Trout wrote on Feb 12th, 2008 at 10:51pm:
where can you buy subsonic ammo for 308 .cheers trout


Denis' website:

http://www.reloader.co.nz/index.html
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChrisF
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1572
Joined: Mar 23rd, 2007
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #11 - Feb 14th, 2008 at 10:42pm
Print Post  
OR you can buy Lapua Subsonic 308 ammo , from Belmont Ammo in Wanganui .


Later Chris
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Skuta
Ex Member


Powder bulk density
Reply #12 - Feb 16th, 2008 at 8:48pm
Print Post  
Here are the powder AVERAGE density data for ADI:
  Product  (gram/Litre)      (grains/mL)
  AS30N         475                 7.3      
  AP70N         630               9.66      
AR2207   885              13.57      
Trail Boss 320                 4.9

I use 10 grains T/Boss push 160grains Lee Lead bullet in my 308, not sure the FPS, but it shot 100cm low at 200metter(rifle zero at 200meter for full jacket load). 10grains T/Boss will fill 60~70% the case. did not mention the sonic crack when I fire the load without earmuff.

10grains of AP70N push Hornady 90 grains HP/XTP (30cal pistol jacket bullet), it shoot sub MOA at 100 meters(supersonic load)

(Rifle: Tikka T3 Lite 308, Lapua case(fatory case, un-prepared), Federal LR Primer, NO filler)

*All load data fire on my own rifle, might NOT suitable for other rifle, powder density data from ADI)

"Reloading for fun not for trouble!!!"
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alex B
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 142
Location: wellington
Joined: Feb 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #13 - Feb 18th, 2008 at 11:19am
Print Post  
Hi guys,
Just stumbles on your thread,  I have been shooting 7.62 x 39 subsonic for a few months now and thought I might share my findings.  I basically wanted a cheap 300 whisper and so decided on a single shot rossi 1:10 twist with a 308 suppressor I brought second hand (unsure of make etc),  My setup is more affectionately called the "Commie Whisper".
Anyway have been loading Hornady 174grn FMJBT projectiles backwards on 9.6 grains of ADI 2205.
I have found this powder to be similar to VVN110.  Not sure of the speed but is very quiet and the groups are ok for a hunting rig.
I have found that when hunting with this, the projectiles dont tumble (despite common belief) and just punch holes clean through, however the deer dont run off and just stand there even though they have been hit!!!!!!  My mate had to put three into a fallow spiker last weekend to put him down! 
So subsonics are all good for hunting and a lot of fun but dont expect great things, unless head or neck shot the animals will not fall over and you can end up thinking youve missed!!!!!
Good luck with your loads, stay safe.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Trout
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Top NZ WhiteTail

Posts: 7801
Location: Southern Alps
Joined: Oct 4th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #14 - Feb 18th, 2008 at 7:57pm
Print Post  
Migth give subs a miss in that case ,i like a bangflop,dont like  wounded  animals walking away ,and i like a bit of range if needed in our open hills .
  

Shot a few deer,caugth some big trout and salmon
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #15 - Feb 18th, 2008 at 9:47pm
Print Post  
Took the Ruger out for the first time during the weekend for a sight-in and try out with Winchester, Highland and Barnaul ammo and they all did one-inch groups at 100 meters. My ordered dies havn't arrived so I'm unable to load up some sub-sonics until then.
Soon as they do arrive, I'll get stuck into it.

Gave up on the mildot or ballistic plex scope. I found I'm more comfortable with what I know so a 4x32 is doing the work.

Thanks for all the links and comments guys, appreciated

Back soon
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
scroat
Ex Member
*


I Love my second wife(currently)

Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #16 - Feb 18th, 2008 at 10:50pm
Print Post  
i have just read all this and would like to add------ make a call to mark bridgeman at custom cartridges taupo ------------- he has a lot to with this and has specific professional programs that predict and give loads---not sure if this post is out off line but he knows his   ...shit. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #17 - Feb 19th, 2008 at 8:57pm
Print Post  
Thanks scroat, had a chat with Mark a few weeks back, on the phone.  An interesting conversation about subsonics, suppressors, powders and lead projectiles.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #18 - Mar 3rd, 2008 at 10:45pm
Print Post  
While I've been waiting to get out again and try some subsonics through the chronograph I thought I would check my Lee powder dipper set and see how it compares with Trailboss powder. Of course it dosn't as this powder isn't listed on the powder chart for my set. I got it from Reloaders about six months ago so it isn't that old. Had a look on the net and couldn't find anything there so decided to weigh the dipper charges myself with a Lyman beam scale.
Here's what I got.

dipper cc           grains of Trailboss

. 3                    1.2
. 5                    1.8
. 7                    2.8
1.0                   4.2
1.3                   6.4
1.6                   7.4
1.9                   9.0
2.2                  10.3........2/3 of case, up to start of neck taper
2.5                  11.5
2.8                  12.6........full case up to start of neck taper

Didn't go any further as I would be looking at compressed loads with the next sized dipper. Gives me something to work with as I develope a reliable subsonic load for the .308
Of course, don't take these charges as gospel, I could have made mistakes.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #19 - Mar 14th, 2008 at 12:07am
Print Post  
My Classic Lee Loader arrived finally. Don't laugh, I like the simplicity and I'm not going to be doing huge runs of ammo.

Loaded up some test rounds using 165 grain round nose copper coated bullets by H&N

1.6cc, 1.9cc and the 2.2cc Lee dippers were used for three loads of Trailboss and while I was there I did some using 1.0cc of AS30N ( 6.7 grains )

Hope to get out soon to try these through the chrony
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Go Green
Just Joined
*
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 30
Location: YORKS
Joined: Mar 16th, 2008
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #20 - Mar 18th, 2008 at 9:44am
Print Post  
I to have been looking round to find data and although there is some it's fairly thin on the ground,I did come across this though,

Youth Reloading Data, Hodgdon Powder Co., Inc., The Brand That's True, Smokeless powder for reloading, and Pyrodex

and this

The Cast Bullet Association

might throw some light on the matter, (you'll have to cut n paste though, still don't know how to send a link..!
cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #21 - Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:49pm
Print Post  
Thanks for that Go Green and Hi


I finally got out this morning for a shoot with the subsonic loads. Got the chrony set up for the first time as well. I'll keep it simple, here are the results

Remember these are all with 165 grain plated bullets

First batch with AS30N powder (same as Clays), 6.7 grains
1102 fps
1075 fps
1099 fps
1073 fps
1104 fps
an average of 1090 fps, spread of 31 fps and one ragged hole, 2 and a half inches low at 25 yards

Second batch with 10.3 grains of Trailboss powder
1259 fps
1230 fps
1275 fps
1253 fps
1247 fps
average of 1253 fps and a 45 fps spread, one hole again this time 3 inches low

Third batch with 9.0 grains of Trailboss powder
1081 fps
1143 fps
1157 fps
1108 fps
1112 fps
average of 1120 fps and a 76 fps spread. one was a flyer but the rest still in the same hole

Fourth batch with 7.4 grains of Trailbos powder
1030 fps
1022 fps
1033 fps
1027 fps
1070 fps
average of 1036 fps and a spread of 48 fps BUT the last shot in this string, I screwed the suppressor on to try it out as there had been no sign of keyholing. That last shot had a slightly higher velocity due to the suppressor so if we subtract that last shot from the string, the 4 shot spread is only 11 fps making 7.4 grains of Trailboss, potentually the most accurate out of the four loads for a 165 grain plated bullet. Also 3 inches low.

I really want a slower speed, closer to 950, maybe 1000 fps for shooting with the suppressor so I need to try another few loads with a little less powder.
My father and nephew were shooting as well and said the 19 rounds fired without the suppressor, sounded like 22's. The suppressed shot was a tiny pop and a whack at the target.

The AS30N shotgun powder did well and didn't shoot as low. No fillers or wads, no dirty cases or ignition problems. I'll keep trying with this powder as well.

I'll have another go soon and will also try them at a greater distance.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
noelfj
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1694
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 9th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #22 - Mar 28th, 2008 at 9:26am
Print Post  
I was there watching, what he means by the same hole is a group of about an inch, it was blowing a gale at the time but any of those loads would do for deer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #23 - Apr 21st, 2008 at 10:51pm
Print Post  
Last week I loaded up a few more rounds in preperation for a hunting trip. Using Trailboss powder I went down a dipper size to 1.3cc. I weighed the charge again and found it was slightly heavier, 6.9 grains, not 6.4. Could be temperature and humidity causing the difference.
The hunting wasn't a success although it was a great weekend away.
Had a chance to shoot some of these lower charge loads at just under 100 yards. I was firing offhand over a log so the group was out to 4 inches but was consistant with all the literature and trajectory tables I have; being 18 inches low at that range.
The recoil was a subtle nudge, a ringing kind of POP from the rifle and a split second pause before the bullet smacked the log target. There was no keyholing and all rounds fed nicely from the magazine.
I hope to put these loads through the chrony sometime soon.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #24 - Apr 23rd, 2008 at 11:41pm
Print Post  
I like these lead plated bullets by H&N. They're a tapered round nose of 165 grains, slightly orange in colour, not your normal copper colour. Being copper coated, not jacketed, means they are softer than a jacketed bullet yet firmer than normal lead and of course, there will not be a leading problem.
I also like the price so went back to Serious Shooters and brought their last stock of this line. Unfortunatly they won't be bringing in this bullet again.
Reloader Supplies sell Berry's Prefered Plated bullets and they do a 150 grain tapered flat nose, intended for the 30/30 and of course any other 30 caliber. Trouble is, they have to order them in and this is a drawn out exercise. These lighter projectiles are also plated and very cheap so I have ordered a box (come in 1000's). The lighter 150 and 165 grain bullets should still do the business on goats and small deer and with the right bullet placement, take reds well out past 100 yards.
Remember, it's not the energy or velocity that counts with subsonics, it's the ability to actually hit the target, a vital organ, that matters.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #25 - May 6th, 2008 at 10:03pm
Print Post  
I had a chance to put those recently loaded rounds through the chronograph today, the same ones I tried on the last bush trip. Here's what I got.

With Trailboss powder, 6.9 grains (1.3cc dipper) 165 gn projectile

834 fps average with a spread of 78 fps


With ADI AS30N powder, 5.6 grains (.7cc dipper) 165 gn projectile

821 fps average with a spread of 69 fps


To slow....... I want closer to 950 fps before I settle on a load with these bullets.
There's not much in it, between the 1.6cc and 1.3cc dippers for Trailboss powder. Same story with the AS30N powder, somewhere between .7 and 1.0cc.

I'll take another look at powder weights and try again soon.

No ignition problems, clean cases and a clean bore.

cheers


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #26 - May 6th, 2008 at 11:09pm
Print Post  
Pulled out some paper, pencil and a ruler then made up a simple graph, plotting the powder weights and velocities above.
With that I came up with powder charges for an optimun 960fps,

Trailboss....7.2 grains

AS30N........6.1 grains

Probably to simple to be scientific but it's a starting point.

I'll be back
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
avon_7
Forum Senior
****
Offline



Posts: 530
Location: Gold Coast
Joined: Apr 6th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #27 - May 7th, 2008 at 10:15pm
Print Post  
Hello there
I have had a bit of experience with center fires shooting subsonic loads.
i have got a fully surpressed .308 and have shot various kinds of sonic and sub sonic loads through it.
The whole idea of course was for hunting but i found that the subsonic loads just punched through the deer with no effect other then wounding them. The sonic loads killed great  but were as loud as a .22rimfire magum  so not exactly silent. Accuracy with subsonic loads was fine and I had no problems stabilizing bullets. I used a dacron filler to prevent detonation, which could be a problem, using 10gr of fast burning powder in a relativley large .308 case.
In the end i kinda not really bothered with it anymore as the subsonic .308 loads were so lame on game that you would be better off ear shooting deer at close range with a silenced .22LR firing solids.
  

If it takes only one careless match to start a bush fire, how come it takes me a whole box to start a camp fire.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #28 - May 7th, 2008 at 11:42pm
Print Post  
Thanks, your comments kind of qualify my earlier thoughts on getting a 44 caliber dedicated and silenced rifle. Yes the 30 caliber bullets will lack the ability to damage tissue and let blood run, even though there is no problem penetrating a deer. This is why I have gradualy reduced my persieved operational hunting range with a 308 subsonic. It was 200 yards, now it's 100. To be effective, I'll need a vital organ hit like the brain, spine or heart so succsessful shooting will be totaly reliant on my ability to hit these targets offhand.
I understand the bigger projectiles like the 44, 45 and especially the 50 caliber subsonics, don't have the same minimal damage problems as the 308, simply because of their greater frontal area which leaves a larger wound channel. Similer to an archers hunting arrow.
Of course the beauty of a 308 is the ability to reload with standard ammunition and revert to a conventional hunting rifle.
cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Skuta
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #29 - May 15th, 2008 at 10:30pm
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2008 at 11:41pm:
I like these lead plated bullets by H&N. They're a tapered round nose of 165 grains, slightly orange in colour, not your normal copper colour.


Hi,

where do get those bullets from? I saw some copper plated lead bullet in pistol cal. but not .308 cal.

Cheers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #30 - May 15th, 2008 at 11:36pm
Print Post  
I brought the last few jars Serious Shooters had of them. I don't think they'll stock them again. Try Reloaders, they sell berry's prefered plated bullets but the biggest 30 cal is just 150 grains and they need to be ordered from the states. Wouldn't know where else to get these H&N projectiles.
cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Skuta
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #31 - May 18th, 2008 at 11:54am
Print Post  
So, I have better looking at Jacket projectile to start with,( I try cast lead bullet but too messy, I have to clean to barral before I load a jacket load into my rifle after fired a lead load. which is not good for hunting).

so What jacket projectile shall I start with? 150 gr SP/ RN? or FMJ?
I am not sure those soft point bullet will expand while traveling just under 1000fps, if not, FMJ will be my choice.  also, I am afrair 1 in 11 inch twise won't stablise the heavy stones(180gr or above)

Cheers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #32 - May 18th, 2008 at 10:03pm
Print Post  
As yet, I havn't tried and jacketed projectiles although I hope to at a later date. The coated projectiles don't lead the barrel and reduce the risk of sticking in the barrel.
I fired these bullets at pine logs and they penetrated an 8 inch log and settled 3 inches into another. What supprised me was the bullets when recovered......apart from the rifling grooves,  were still in mint condition, no deforming of any kind. Based on this, I doubt if soft or hollow point projectiles will mushroom.
I would go with FMJ bullets starting with a small pack of projectiles between 150 and 180 grains,  checking velocity and accuracy.
cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #33 - May 19th, 2008 at 9:54pm
Print Post  
Had another shoot this weekend and tried some loads using 7.2 grains of Trailboss powder. I didn't weigh the loads, just took a 1.6cc dipper (7.4 grains) and gave the dipper a 'tap' to loose a grain or two before dropping into the case. It almost worked.
Of the 10 shots through the chronograph, 7 were close to my target velocity
The average velocity was 959 fps with a spread of 127 fps.
If I take out the three fliers (896, 1010 & 1023fps) then the average is 951 fps with a spread of only 30 fps.
This to me is the optimum load for my rifle and these 165 grain projectiles, using Trailboss powder.
7.2 grains.
I'll have to weigh each charge, possible with a trickler, but as I don't shoot large quantities, thats ok.
I'll try again with the ADI powder at a later date

As a matter of interest, I tried some Winchester .22 subsonics through the Rossi single shot and came up with an average of 1052 fps and a spread of 36 fps. I get the feeling these Winchester rounds are on the verge of going sonic as I am sure some of them will have a 'crack' when shot.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #34 - Jun 15th, 2008 at 12:07am
Print Post  
I've been a bit busy recently so havn't had a chance to do any shooting although I have been able to order a box of Sierra 220 grain round nose projectiles (jacketed).
I'll do a final check on the ADI and Trailboss powders with 165 grain bullets sometime soon and I'll start on the heavier 220 bullets at the same time.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
littlejap
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #35 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:50pm
Print Post  
Hey,

Keep us posted on your progress Smiley

James
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChrisF
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1572
Joined: Mar 23rd, 2007
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #36 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 4:23pm
Print Post  
Be careful , 220gr may not stabilise in some slow twist 308 barrels ,so watch out for keyholing .


Later Chris
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #37 - Jun 29th, 2008 at 9:17pm
Print Post  
Had another shoot this weekend. Started with the 165 grain bullets with 6.1 grains of AS30N and averaged 1046 fps with a spread of 58fps. This is a bit fast, I'll try again with 5.9 grains later. I would like to get the same average velocity as with trailboss powder.

Then I started with the 220 grain bullets but made the mistake of starting with the smallest of my powder charges (it's the opposite with subsonic handloads) and the first one stuck in the barrel, well actually it seated in the rifling and that was that. No bulges and the case came out fine but my shooting was over. My friendly gunsmith is dealing with the problem at the moment.

I'll be back later  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #38 - Jul 3rd, 2008 at 11:20pm
Print Post  
That great big projectile came out with a little gentle persuasion Smiley

Back up to the range today....(actually a paddock) and this time I started with the biggest loads behind the 220 grain jacketed bullets.


12.6 grains of Trailboss, 220 grain Sierra roundnose
970 fps
957 fps
895 fps
932 fps
987 fps
These gave an average of 948 fps with a spread of 92 fps. 2.8cc dipper

11.2 grains of Trailboss, 220 grain Sierra roundnose
924 fps
901 fps
Average of 912 fps and a spread of 23 fps but with only two rounds in this loading, the average dosn't really count. Loaded with the 2.5cc dipper.

10.3 grains of Trailboss, 220 grain Sierra roundnose
868 fps
786 fps
771 fps
Average of 808 fps and spread of 97 fps. 2.2cc dipper

then I tried the shotgun powder

8.9 grains of ADI AS30N, 220 grain Sierra roundnose
834 fps
813 fps
991 fps
Average of 879 fps with a spread of 178 fps. 1.3cc dipper. An unussual 'flyer' in this lot.

I seem to have stumbled onto the optimum load straight away, 12.6 grains of Trailboss behind the 220 grain Sierra roundnose. I won't do any more with this weight projectile and Trailboss although I will attempt to get better with the AS30N using both the 165 and 220 grain projectiles.

I chose the big Sierra based on price alone and so far it hasn't been a bad decision. Neither the 165 grain or 220 grain projectiles have shown signs of keyholing...although the shooting range today was only 45 yards, I feel confident in taking large deer out to 100 yards with either bullet weight as the trajectories are so close and if a little tumbling or instability occured, it may actually help a subsonic bullet. More on trajectories and point of aim another time.

Opened another little box of Berry's Prefered bullets yesterday, the bullets I ordered from Reloaders earlier this year. 150 grain, flat nosed .308 projectiles made for the 30/30, a soft lead bullet with a copper coating. These 20 cent bullets will make ideal subsonic 'plinkers' and I'll get onto them soon.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #39 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:18pm
Print Post  
Had another chance for a quick shoot yesterday (between rain showers). Here's the results

10.9 grains of AS30N, 220 grain Sierra roundnose
1268 fps
1140 fps
1108 fps
1163 fps
1108 fps
1125 fps
Average of 1152 fps, spread of 160 fps. 1.6cc dipper. First shot was a flyer. Apart from that, not bad although still a little fast

5.9 grains of AS30N, 165 grain H&N
1012 fps
981 fps
981 fps
950 fps
Average of 981 fps, spread of 62 fps. Each powder charge was weighed.

6.9 grains of Trailboss, 150 grain Berrys
663 fps
790 fps
the chrono got water drops on the sensors so didn't read the last two shots. Dosn't matter anyway, this load is to light. 1.3cc dipper

4.8 grains of AS30N, 150 grain Berrys
664 fps
294 fps
515 fps
Another load to light. .7cc dipper

The 5.9 grains of AS30N is about ideal for the 165 grain H&N bullets so I'll leave it at that for that powder and bullet weight.
The 10.9 grain load (AS30N) with the bigger 220 grain Sierra's is too fast, they all 'cracked' like a .22.

The lighter 150 grain Berrys bullets appear to have a tighter grip in the barrel than the H&N bullets so may need similer charges to achieve similer velocities. I'll work on those next

Now a quick summary of the loads I've settled on
7.2 grains of Trailboss, 165 grain H&N bullet, 960 fps
12.6 grains of Trailboss, 220 grain Sierra roundnose, 948 fps
5.9 grains of AS30N, 165 grain H&N, 981 fps

cheers




  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #40 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 10:49pm
Print Post  
Loaded up a handful of cartridges with the 150 grain Berrys bullets, this time with 7.4 grains of Trailboss powder and here's the results

1019 fps
914 fps
955 fps
890 fps
978 fps
943 fps
953 fps

The average velocity is 950 fps with a spread of 129 fps. This will do fine. That 7.4 grain load is with the 1.6cc Lee dipper making this a great subsonic 'plinking load'. I'll try these bullets with the AS30N, later.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #41 - Sep 6th, 2008 at 11:44pm
Print Post  
Just got back from a quiet few nights camping. Had the rifle and chrony with me and put a few more rounds through

Using the berrys 150 grain bullets, AS30N powder and a 1.0cc dipper, I got these velocities,

1045 fps
937 fps
1050 fps
979 fps

The average was 1002 fps with a spread of 113 fps. Thats not bad although I would prefere the average down about 50 fps. That 1.0cc dipper of AS30N weighs 6.7 grains so I'll guesstimate a measured load of 6.5 grains to achieve this. As it's just a plinker load, I can get away with using the 1.0cc dipper.

I'll think about trying again with the 220 sierra and AS30N at a later date.

For now, I have five usable loads with two powders and three projectile weights so It's time to see how accurate these are at 100 yards. I'll need to wait until a day off and fine weather match up.

back soon

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #42 - Oct 1st, 2008 at 10:57pm
Print Post  
Sorry for the delay, time and the weather have been against me. Hope to get out soon.

I've had time to think about the projectiles I have so to keep things as simple as possible, I have settled on this;


150 grain Berrys bullets
use these for subsonic plinking/small game hunting, with either Trailboss or AS30N powders

165 grain H&N bullets
load up these with about 13 grains of AS30N and use them for training/hunting, with or without the suppressor. Similar
to "the load"

220 grain Sierra roundnose
these will be the primary hunting load, behind 12.6 grains of Trailboss, with the suppressor on. (as long as they pass the accuracy test)

cheers

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #43 - Oct 13th, 2008 at 11:51pm
Print Post  
Finally got out for a shoot today. Had a variety of rifles, a .223, two 303's and the .308. Measured a 100 yard range on the paddock and set up the chrony for a batch of handloads but the subsonic shooting is what I'll talk about now.

First I tried a group with the 165 grain bullets in front of 7.2 grains of Trailboss powder.
The group printed two and a half inches wide and three and three quarter inches high. The height spread could be my powder measuring and the width was probably the wind. This group was centered fifteen and a half inches low and the wind pushed it four and a half inches left.  Still, not bad for a deer load mean't for 100 yards.

Then I tried the 220 grain Sierra roundnose bullets with 12.6 grains of Trailboss.
This group was three quarters of an inch wide and two and three quarters high. Again, the height could be my powder measuring....or lack of as I use a lee dipper.
The group was tighter than the lighter bullets group and less affected by the wind, only blown one and a half inches left. The bullet drop was thirteen and a half inches low.
I consider this load to be ideal for close range subsonic deer hunting as it has passed my accuracy test....oh yeah, no keyholing at all, clean round holes in the target, both loads.

During the shoot, it was noticed that the recoil of the .308 with the can on and full house loads (not subsonic) wasn't much different from the .223. These suppressors really enhance the shooting experiance, cutting muzzle blast and recoil although I've lost about 100 fps with the shorter barrel. Something I can live with....it's still somewhere between a .300 Savage and the .308 with a 24 inch barrel. I doubt the deer would notice Smiley

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
littlejap
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #44 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 4:51pm
Print Post  
Let us know how those loads go on deer, the 220 round nose sounds like it'd sail right through?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
leathel
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Hunting / Fishing, Its
all good!!

Posts: 11884
Location: Tuakau, Waikato
Joined: Oct 19th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #45 - Oct 14th, 2008 at 5:37pm
Print Post  
lots of good info there Cool
  

Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #46 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 10:24am
Print Post  
308 Subsonic draws first blood


Shot a billy goat at about 40 paces and he dropped like a stone. The 220 grain Sierra hit high in the chest area, 'tapping' the spine, hence the quick drop. He hadn't seen or heard me. The entry wound was tiny but the big surprise was the exit wound....a tiny hole looking like a freshly squeezed pimple.

I didn't have a clear shot at the chest of the goat due to a clump of bracken in the way. I could see the horns moving as he fed and the stomach, back and back legs and had a very good idea where the rest of him was so target ID wasn't a problem.
I later found out the rifle was shooting high so that and the bracken meant a high shot and as I was aiming for a centre chest shot.....I effectively missed.
I expected the bullet to go right through and it did (into a bank) but with no sign of any tumbling, so I can only say the jury is still out on how effective the load is on game.

Sorry for my ignorance but I don't know how to upload photos onto here  Embarrassed

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alex B
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 142
Location: wellington
Joined: Feb 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #47 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 11:42am
Print Post  
Mate this info is great!
I posted on here a while ago about my experiences with 7.62 x 39 subs and how the bullets dont expand etc etc.  I have come across some interesting things people do to help with this problem, Loading boat tail bullets backwards, this is what I do and it makes a difference but still not ideal, accuracy is effected too.
A mate shoots a 300 whisper and drills his hollow points to 3mm, some other guys do this then fill the cavity with wax.  He reckons it makes a big difference with tumbling.
Also found an interesting projectile on the gunworks blog, I haven't posted enough on this forum to paste the link, but if you go to gunworks, then click on whats happening this week, then go to page 4, you'll see it.
For my rifle Im in the process of looking for pistol bullets designed to expand at low velocity in my calibre, hopefully I can get some, if not It'll be back to the drawing board trying to find the most accurate load for head and neck shots.
Also playing with trail boss powder now, hopefully get some better accuracy, currently shooting ADI 2205 and getting 2 inch groups at 50 yards with the bullets backwards, 1 inch at 50yards bullets seated forwards.  Not very good.
Good luck and keep us all posted, your info is fantastic!!! Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
jimmy.308
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #48 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 7:47pm
Print Post  
i use some 180g hornady round noses and 9.5g of trail boss.got a 1/2" group at 50m.shot a 30" billy with it last wednesday through the neck and was a through and through.was hoping for a broad side shot was he didn't present itself.biggest billy i have ever shot
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
littlejap
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #49 - Nov 15th, 2008 at 3:50pm
Print Post  
Keep the info coming, lots of good stuff here!

Are .308 dia pistol projectiles available? something thatll expand at lower velocities? cast bullets?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Skuta
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #50 - Nov 15th, 2008 at 6:31pm
Print Post  
Hornady has 90gr HXP(Jacket Hollow Point) in 30 Cal.
havn't try them on Sub, But shoot under 1" on reduced load at 100m.
still got few let in the cabinet, pm me if you need any.

cheers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
littlejap
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #51 - Nov 17th, 2008 at 6:04pm
Print Post  
spose they woudlnt come much heavier either?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #52 - Dec 21st, 2008 at 11:35pm
Print Post  
northland-hunter is using the little 90 grain'ers on goats, subsonic.

Got out again today and had another go with the 220 grain Sierra's at 100 meters. With a different target backing and paper I was just able to notice the first signs of tumbling, something I hadn't seen on the previous shoot. The projectiles were going in at about 5 degrees off line. My barrel twist of 1 in 10 isn't mean't for anything heavier than 200 grains so this proves that point. 1 in 9 or 1 in 8 for the heavy 308 bullets.
But, as I'm limiting myself to 100 yards...ish for subsonic hunting then this is probably a little bonus. Out towards my self imposed limit, that big bullet is getting unstable so as soon as it hits an animal, it's going to tumble and thats when some real (non bruising) damage will be done.
Of course, up close, it's still as straight as an arrow and hasn't as yet shown signs of tumbling, at least not in the goat shot a few weeks back.

At the start of the shoot, I checked the rifles zero with standard 150 grain ammunition and confirmed inch groups, two and a half inches high at 100 meters. Thats where I want it.
The 220 grain subsonic ammo was shooting 14 inches below the point of aim in a 2 inch vertical string. (or 16 1/2 inches below the sonic ammo)
The 165 grain ammo was 16 inches low and the group was opening up to nearly 4 inches so I won't persue this load as I've said earlier.

It won't take long to get used to the hold-over/bullet drop with this combination. Just need more practice.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #53 - Jan 19th, 2009 at 12:15am
Print Post  
Got out on the range again today and put a few more 220 grain subsonic rounds through the Ruger at 100 meters.

My father found that by placing the top of the bottom post (of the scopes plex) on the target, that the bullets fall just above the bullseye.
I tried it and it works although the point where the bottom post joins the middle crosshair is about 2 inches across at 100 meters (2 MOA ?) so precise groups didn't happen.  Still good enough for a deers heart at 100 though  Wink

So, within my subsonic range, those 220 grain bullets will land somewhere between the crosshair and the post, depending on distance, out to 100 meters. (kind of a poor mans mill-dot)

Armed with this info I think I will conclude my 308 subsonic testing, stick with my load of 12.6 grains of Trailboss (2.8cc dipper) and 220 grain Sierra RN. Time to go shooting.

Oh yeah.....the wind pushes subsonic bullets around, don't expect tack driving on a windy day. They all get affected, more for the lighter bullets, less for the heavier ones.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alex B
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 142
Location: wellington
Joined: Feb 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #54 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 1:45pm
Print Post  
Gidday Mark, Me again,
Some more research on the net and I have found that a bullet with a heavy base and spire point, hollow point, FMJ etc etc will have more chance of tumbling due to the weight being at the back and wanting to come forward and become the front.
This is why military projectiles are designed the way they are, the rules forbid expanding ammo, so they make back heavy bullets that tumble on impact and cut a large internal hole before exiting backwards.
I have shot alot of goats with army 308 FMJ ammo and have seen no evidence of tumbling, but found  a bit of info on it on the net. 
Perhaps if you cant get a tumble try some flatbase spire points in the same weight and see what happens?  Just another suggestion.

Still having trouble finding pistol bullets in a .310or .311 caliber for my commie whisper??  It appears they dont exist??
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #55 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:34pm
Print Post  
Alex B

Thanks for your research

The 7.62x51 nato projectile (308 winchester) ussually weighs in at about 149 grains.
The .303 British is practically the same caliber (just a few thou difference) but weighs in at 174 grains and unlike the 308, had a light filler in the front of the projectile, either alluminium or wood pulp. This makes a long for caliber projectile that is almost unbalanced until it hits something, then it may tumble as the weight is at the rear. Known as the mk 7 303 (military) round, it worked for over half a century.
The old 303 is much better as a 'tumbler' than the 7.62x51 nato ball
A 165 or 168 grain hollow point Spitzer flat base in 308 would almost equate the old 303's tumbling ability, better than current ball ammo in 7.62x51.

I have only shot one goat with my subsonic 308. The 220 grain round nose, did not tumble, just pierced the animal. I believe, the old 303 used to do the same thing (military ammo). A bullet needs a lot of disruption to tumble, as you have found out, even in living tissue. (for straight on shots).

I'm still not convinced that a subsonic bullet will automatically tumble in flesh.
 
I would have trouble getting a longer (same weight spitzer) projectile to stabilise in my 1 in 10 twist barrel. Lighter projectiles drop off earlier so I avoid them and stick with the heaviest that works out to 100 meters and for my rifle, thats those 220 grain Sierra RN.

Pistol bullets in .312 caliber do exsist, I have a box of them here. (work in 303 lee enfields) Got them from Reloaders in AKL, they are 83 grain hollow base wadcutters, plated, made by Berrys but I don't know if they still carry them.
I'm pretty sure I laid eyes on a box of pistol bullets in 32 caliber (.312) at Reloaders during my last visit. They were jacketed XTP's of about 80 to 100 grains, not sure.

Commie Whisper  ...  I would find the heaviest bullet that is stable in your barrel. Forget about expanding with subsonics. I don't think it will work on deer. (no penetration) Also, the lighter bullets will drop off (trajectory)  sooner than the heavier ones making point of aim and point of impact differences, greater.

Hornady make round nose and FMJ bullets of 174 grain in 303 caliber and Sierra have 174 and 180 grain bullets. All of these would be great subsonic projectiles for the 7.62x39 although heavier would be better. A cast bullet of around 200 or more would be best.  

Remember, subsonics are backwards in princible
Hand load hot (fast) then back it off,
Heavier bullets fly straighter

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spanners
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #56 - Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:42pm
Print Post  
With jacketed proj, has anyone cut a X acorss the tip to help them open up?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #57 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:07am
Print Post  
Spanners

Are you talking pistol bullets, if so,

I'm not convinced that a rapidly expanding bullet like you describe would have enough velocity and energy to penetrate a deers flesh and hit a vital organ.

Quick expanding pistol bullets do that, we know, but shooting them subsonic means they loose velocity and fall away sooner and when they do hit, they may explode on the hide and outer flesh. Kind of like shooting red deer with a 223 and 40 grain varmit projectiles....no penetration, no kill, no deer Sad

Or do you mean this,

Now, if someone made a commercial projectile of about 200 + grains, in 308 caliber with a soft lead hollow point, jacketed........something like a big XTP, then expanding subsonics may start working
I suppose I could modify my Sierra 220 round nose bullets by giving them a hollow point and gently cutting the upper jacket into an X.
Might try that one day

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spanners
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #58 - Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:13am
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 12:07am:
Spanners



Or do you mean this,

Now, if someone made a commercial projectile of about 200 + grains, in 308 caliber with a soft lead hollow point, jacketed........something like a big XTP, then expanding subsonics may start working
I suppose I could modify my Sierra 220 round nose bullets by giving them a hollow point and gently cutting the upper jacket into an X.
Might try that one day

cheers



The 2nd.. I remeber somethign about it.. its against the Genevia Convention to do it in War situations as they expand.
Maybe snipping the tips off them enoughbt to expose lead will encourange the jacket to open up?
Drilling them like a HP is another option?

I want to have a play... need to find some cheap cheap 200+ RN
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alex B
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 142
Location: wellington
Joined: Feb 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #59 - Jan 27th, 2009 at 8:59am
Print Post  
Gidday Mark,
Yeah have been using 174grn hornady and sierra boat tail bullets but have been seating them backwards, was told that when shooting subsonic this is the quietest with regards to bullet flight noise and also cuts a bigger hole (semi wadcutter sort of)  However these just punch a .30 cal hole straight through, leaving the animal standing taking a while to bleed out.  I have shot a few fallow deer and numerous goats with this concoction but like quicker results hence the reason for wanting to find some sort of expanding ammo. 
I have also shot several smallish goats in the chest with subsonic .22.  Surprisingly these penetrate, expand and the projectile ends up sitting against the skin on the far side.  My theory is that if a 40grn subsonic .22 slug can penetrate that far then a 90-100grn pistol projectile will do a similar or better job at the closer ranges, the B.C. of such projectiles is terrible so can't imagine these loads to be very effective past 70m. 
This is a great disscussion and I think we are all learning alot, Will have to have a play with various projectiles and shoot wet phone books or something, hopefully find something that works.      
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #60 - Jan 27th, 2009 at 10:57am
Print Post  
I have been mulling the projectile choice issue over.  For killing power you want a big hole.  This means Hollow point, flat nose or round nose in that order of preference.

The 90g xtp projectile has the hollow point but is lighter than I would like and requires a half full case.

I think we should be looking at 30-30 projectiles.  They have the flat nose and also are made to expand at 2000ish fps rather than 3000ish fps of 308 projectiles.

So looking on outdoor supplies there are a couple of choices:
Sierra 2020 125gr HP-FN (.30-30) $57 Pro-Hunter
Sierra 2010 170gr FN (.30-30) $61 Pro-Hunter
Hornady 3060 170gr FP  $55

Sierra make a 150g FP projectile as well but I don't see the point when you can get the same projectile in 170g.

Out of the 170g Sierra and the Hornady the Hornady gets a better score on the stability calculator (and it's cheaper which is good if you plan on using a lot of them).

The Sierra 125g hollow point is interesting.  It's a bit heavier than the 90g xtp which adds downrange energy and goes some way towards solving the half empty case issue.  I did a few google searches and found some good reviews for that projectile but no pictures of the hollow point, all the images where of the projectile side on.

I think I am going to order Hornady 170g FP projectiles today. 

For use on rabbits, even with no expansion it should create a bigger wound channel than a .22 subsonic.

For use on bigger game, bailed pigs etc the extra interta will be handy for better penertration.  Also in that situation a projectile that expands too rapidly might be a handicap.

I will try the 170s and report back.  Someone order a box of the 125g HP and report back.

I did my first real trial of the sub loads over the weekend.  Used 180g flat base, soft point spritzers.  Loads appeared subsonic and no projectiles stuck in the barrel so thats all good.  Shooting a rotten log resulted in the same size exit hole as entry so no great surprises there.

Now just got to get some of the 170g, a chrony and get to the range.

  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #61 - Jan 27th, 2009 at 8:31pm
Print Post  
Alex B and MassiveAttack

I am thinking there needs to be some form of universal and consistant test medium. Something like those wet telephone books. Ballistic gelitin would be better but I'm all out of that and telephone books  Smiley

That way, with a universal medium, we can test different projectiles for expansion and penetration.
As long as all our testing was subsonic then we could have a kind of homemade online data base for everybody to share.

Would plastic milk bottles filled with water and lined up in Indian fill be OK ?
Maybe some sort of jelly type filling.
Potters clay or plasticine
Any suggestions guys, I would need to take the least expensive route.

I'm certainly keen to try this out.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gerry Atric
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1295
Location: Raggaro
Joined: Jul 11th, 2008
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #62 - Jan 28th, 2009 at 8:32am
Print Post  
MarkJ,
Have read this thread with interest, and agree with MassiveAttack that a HP would be the best solution in this case.
If available in NZ, the Lapua Scenar HP might be an option.....

http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=853

The Scenar HP opens very (too) quick when shot with "normal" speeds at forest birds as Capercaillies and Black Grouse, so hunters "spoon" them in order to close the hollow point, thus making them act like FMJ´s.
(To spoon = to close a HP with a spoon, tapping on the HP edge in a roundabout manner) I think this is a new meaning of spooning Wink


Gerry Atric
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alex B
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 142
Location: wellington
Joined: Feb 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #63 - Jan 28th, 2009 at 9:04am
Print Post  
Totally agree Mark,
Such a database would be great for subsonic shooters,
And cheap is definitely a must, I have used various mediums in the past, milk bottles filled with water is quite spectacular, and have compared .22lr to .22mag penetration with inch thick rough sawn timber stacked up, this actually worked quite well.  .22lr subsonic penetrates far deeper in this than .22mag.  The projectiles were recovered also

I guess whatever is shot at needs to show us how deep the projectiles penetrate and also collect the projectiles or leave a "wound channel" to show how well they expand. 

Im leaning towards newspapers or cardboard stacked up and cinched up tight with a couple of cheap ratchet tie downs.

Its cheap and will show us all of the above.
Any thoughts??
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #64 - Jan 28th, 2009 at 9:21am
Print Post  
If it had been a few months ago when we where changing over to this years phone books I would have said phone books. My personal reccomendation would be mild bottles filled with water.  You don't get to see the wound channel but if you recover the projectile then the amount of expansion tells you all you need to know.

I think the ultimate solution is cast bullets.  The old man has moulds so I have given him some trail boss and told him to do the research.

I still want a jacketed projectile option as well so I am going to persist with that.  The best route is 30-30 projectiles as they are made to expand at 2000fps which while still twice as fast as subsonic is closer than 308 velocities.

I am going to trial the 170g flat nose.  The lead on the nose is very soft (deformed a couple of them last night wile reloading) so I am hopefull they will at least partially expand.

Other than that the biggest 30-30 hollow point you can find.  Sierra make one in 125g.  For a 30-30 round the hollow point has to be big enough to encircle the primer which is all good from our perspective.

northland-hunter proved that you can get a hp to expand at subsonic velovities.   Now we just need to find a heavier projectile.

I am thinking 170g flat nose for bailed pigs.  125g hp for rabbits, possums or other vermin.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #65 - Mar 11th, 2009 at 1:03pm
Print Post  
Going out for a shoot early next week so I've modified some of the 220 grain Sierra bullets with the hope of doing an expansion test.

Taking the bullet, I simply cut the exposed lead tip off, level with the copper jacket, using a stanley knife, supported on my wooden workbench. I got the scales out and found the weight dropped from 220 grains, down to 215 grains. This gives a flat tipped bullet, something like the 30/30 uses.

Then the bullet was supported in the vise (with alloy pads) and using a 4mm drill in a hand drill, I drilled in 4mm. This gave the bullet a look not unlike an XTP pistol bullet. This one weighed in at 208 grains.

Then, with another trimmed bullet, I drilled in 15mm but this time with a 3mm drill. 201 grains for this one.

Finally, another bullet was held upright in the vise and with a hacksaw, two cuts, crossing were cut, both 7mm deep, down through the lead tip and into the copper. The resulting 4 deep groves makes an interesting proposition. Didn't weigh this one...forgot

With these four different bullets, I intend to test them in some medium and see if they expand. Not sure what I'll use, stacked planks or maybe a box fill of wet sand.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #66 - Mar 16th, 2009 at 9:03pm
Print Post  
Well, I tried those loads out today. Found a 20 litre plastic bucket with a lid, stuffed it full of rags and filled it with water, leaving it overnight.
Placed it on the ground in front of a small earth bank and from about 20 paces back, fired the rounds.
Those water soaked rags didn't effect the bullets much. Complete penetration, lost them into the bank. I dug in about a foot and only found one of the jackets from a hacksaw cut bullet. The others I couldn't find.
That hacksaw cut bullet only shed its jacket and peeled the copper back a little, because it hit a zip on a pair of jeans in the bucket.

Test results = inconclusive

Need a better penetration medium.

Did have a bit of fun while long range shooting at a sand dune.
Found the 308 subsonics have a very close trajectory to the three .22's we had. Not sure of the range but we gestimated 250 yards.
Two of the .22's have 4 power scopes, as does the Ruger .308. (this worked for the 3 of them).
We found that by holding the target about halfway down the reticle post (the thick part of the reticle) that the bullets were getting real close to the target (a clump of grass), enough to perhaps think about a ballistic plex or a milldot scope one day.
The other .22, my little Rossi single shot, has sights from a 303 SMLE, so I dialled up 650 yards and was getting into the killzone .... with open sights  Wink

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #67 - Mar 16th, 2009 at 10:56pm
Print Post  
Got any pics of the rossi with 303 sights?

Big phat cast lead projectiles are the answer I recon.  Think of it as a .22 sub projectile on steroids.  Still haven't gotten my hands on any projectiles to test the theory though...
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #68 - Mar 17th, 2009 at 8:54pm
Print Post  
Massiveattack, I'm starting to warm to your thoughts on lead bullets.

Did you get those pic's

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #69 - Mar 17th, 2009 at 11:33pm
Print Post  
Yep, got the pics, cheers for that.

Trail boss is made to use with cast projectiles.  Apparently due to variations in velocity when used with jacketed projectiles.  That may be causing large vertical groups some people are seeing.

Add to that lower cost projectiles which is an advantage when everything is going up in price.

Trouble is that it looks expensive to get into.  Molds, sizing dies etc.  The come up on trade me from time to time to I am keeping my eyes out.

Does anyone know of a commercial source of cast projectiles?
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #70 - Mar 25th, 2009 at 2:31pm
Print Post  
The new phone books have arrived so it's time to try those penetration tests again. Got a plastic bucket from the $2 shop that held 6 books nicely, 2 white and 4 yellow. Poured water in and let it soak in before heading out for a shoot. The water was absorbed, the books swelled up and the total thickness for the test measured 16 inches. A piece of 2 inch dry pine was placed behind as well.

For this shoot I used one untouched bullet and 5 modified. These were drilled with the 4mm drill to a depth of 4mm.

At 20 feet the first shot, the untouched bullet, penetrated the whole lot and lodged into the pine. The jacket and lead were peeled back on one side.
The next one again went all the way through the paper and through the pine, disappearing into the hill behind.
The last four all were caught in the books.
One made it half way into the third book (7") and came to rest at a 45 degree angle. It too was peeled back on one side but not as much as the bullet in the pine.
Two were found in the 4th book, one at a 90 degree angle, the other at 45, they managed 9 to 10 inches. One was peeled back, the other was showing signs of starting to peel.
The last one made it into book number 5, through to page 870 in that book or 12 inches penetration. It too was at a 45 degree angle.

Back at home I took the books out and discovered not all the paper was wet. There was a dry centre and the 4 bullets that were caught were in the dry. The other two had gone through the wet part of the books.
These two had simply penciled through, not showing much sign of slowing, the bullet that went through the pine, caught a lucky split in the wood so it got away.
It was the dry books that caught the others and their bullet deformation was all on the side. This indicates to me that drilling these hard bullets, makes little difference at subsonic speeds, other than to give a bit of grip to start a tumble. There is no mushrooming, other than the dragged material on one side.

I'll stick with these projectiles for now (Sierra 220 RN), heart or head shots, until a suitable soft lead bullet is tried.

Just as a matter of interest, I would have no problems shooting subsonics through vegetation (target ID of course) to hit a deer, the penetration is so good.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #71 - Mar 25th, 2009 at 7:25pm
Print Post  
Interesting.  You could also try a 30/30 round.  I have some hornady 170g flat nose if you want to try a couple.

30-30 is made for lower velocities.  Also the lead in the tip has to be soft enough to not set off primer in the next bullet.

There are some 30-30 hollow point rounds as well.  I think sierra make one in 125 grains.  Again these have to have a large enough enough hollow point to encircle the primer on the next projectile.  This results in a large hollow point which should help expansion.

Having said all of that cast is the way foward.  There is a reason why subsonic .22 rounds are not copper plated.

The old man has bullet dies and sizing dies for 308.  He just ordered a lee 10 pound production pot so hes got all the equipment.  He also has a chrony.

If he ever gets around to making a batch I will send you a couple.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #72 - Mar 25th, 2009 at 8:21pm
Print Post  
Thanks for the offer of a few lead projectiles  Cool

I like the idea of the 30/30 bullets, my father has some and reloads for my nephew but as I had some accuracy and trajectory issues with the 165 grain bullets, I feel the 170 grain 30/30 bullets wouldn't be much better... in my rifle at least. The heaviest I can stabilise are those 220's from Sierra and they give the best groups.
If I can ever get hold of a 200 to 220 grain bullet mold then I would try cast  projectiles.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #73 - Mar 26th, 2009 at 9:07pm
Print Post  
Here are those recovered bullets from the telephone books
308 subsonic, 220 grain Sierra, 950fps shot from 20 feet
The one on the left was recovered from the pine block


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #74 - Mar 26th, 2009 at 10:15pm
Print Post  
The length of the projectile has a major effect on how easy it is to stabalise.  In theory the shorter ones should be better.  Thats why the guy with the 90g xtps had good accuracy.  Flat nose flat base should be fairly stumpy so it surprises me that they didn't work very well.

No idea what size the old mans molds are but I don't think they will be that heavy.  Probably in the 180g range I assume.  Cast are generally fairly short and stumpy so again should stabalise easier.

Old man is hunting whitetail next week so hes focused on other things for a while.  Let you know how it goes though.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #75 - Apr 13th, 2009 at 11:59pm
Print Post  
As I now know how to post pictures, I'll go back and post a few of the goat I shot with the 308 subsonics.


The first shows the billy and the Ruger




the entry wound is at the end of the stick, high on the shoulder




the exit wound, is at the end of the stick, again high




and here is the exit wound, looks like a freshly squeezed pimple  Undecided




That tiny exit wound is the same inside, a thin pencil of tissue damage with little or no shock damage.
I feel a precise shot to a vital organ is the way to kill a deer with these subsonics.  I just had a look at jimmy.308's recent post in the hunting section. He secured a Fallow stag but wasn't happy about needing follow up shots. The first shot to the neck would have dropped the animal with high velocity ammunition simply because of the shock fast bullets deliver but the subsonic round missed the spine, allowing the stag to run around wondering why his neck was stinging, apparently a normal occurance with subsonics.
I'm not taking anything from jimmy.308, I'm glad he secured a nice animal, I just feel it would be a shame if he gave up subsonic hunting after this.
The point I'm trying to make is, until we come up with a reliable 308 subsonic expansion (and penetration) bullet below 200 grains, precise shots at the heart, spine or brain are called for.

I can't get away for a week or so but when I do, the first two rounds in my magazine will be subsonics  Wink

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rambo-6mmRem
Forum Font
*****
Offline


6mm remington with 100gn
corelokt yum

Posts: 2112
Location: Helensville
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #76 - Apr 14th, 2009 at 10:28am
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on Apr 13th, 2009 at 11:59pm:
As I now know how to post pictures, I'll go back and post a few of the goat I shot with the 308 subsonics.


The first shows the billy and the Ruger



the entry wound is at the end of the stick, high on the shoulder




the exit wound, is at the end of the stick, again high




and here is the exit wound, looks like a freshly squeezed pimple  Undecided



That tiny exit wound is the same inside, a thin pencil of tissue damage with little or no shock damage.
I feel a precise shot to a vital organ is the way to kill a deer with these subsonics.  I just had a look at jimmy.308's recent post in the hunting section. He secured a Fallow stag but wasn't happy about needing follow up shots. The first shot to the neck would have dropped the animal with high velocity ammunition simply because of the shock fast bullets deliver but the subsonic round missed the spine, allowing the stag to run around wondering why his neck was stinging, apparently a normal occurance with subsonics.
I'm not taking anything from jimmy.308, I'm glad he secured a nice animal, I just feel it would be a shame if he gave up subsonic hunting after this.
The point I'm trying to make is, until we come up with a reliable 308 subsonic expansion (and penetration) bullet below 200 grains, precise shots at the heart, spine or brain are called for.

I can't get away for a week or so but when I do, the first two rounds in my magazine will be subsonics  Wink

cheers 

try cast projs there are some on trade me at the mo
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Ammunition/auction-213037908.ht... Cool you should get the mushroom you need
  

if you go to bed with an itchy bottom you'll wake up with smelly finger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #77 - Apr 14th, 2009 at 10:33pm
Print Post  
Thanks rambo on wheels, just clicked buy now, should have them soon

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rambo-6mmRem
Forum Font
*****
Offline


6mm remington with 100gn
corelokt yum

Posts: 2112
Location: Helensville
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #78 - Apr 16th, 2009 at 1:31pm
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on Apr 14th, 2009 at 10:33pm:
Thanks rambo on wheels, just clicked buy now, should have them soon

cheers

cool let me know how you get on
rambo
  

if you go to bed with an itchy bottom you'll wake up with smelly finger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #79 - Apr 16th, 2009 at 4:01pm
Print Post  
Ditto, also interested.  Thats not the end of the journy though.  You still have to play with HP vs not HP projectiles, different harnesses of alloy etc etc etc.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #80 - Apr 16th, 2009 at 4:49pm
Print Post  
Cheers guys, the guy is away for the weekend so I expect the projectiles to arrive next week sometime. Not sure if I'll have time to load some up before my (late) roar trip, Anzac weekend.
Called in on my friendly tyre shop man and cleaned out his box of old wheel weights so sometime I'll melt them into ingots.

I'll finally get to try some of those little XTP bullets you sent me MassiveAttack but I'm loading them fast with Trailboss, just as an experiment.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #81 - Apr 16th, 2009 at 8:09pm
Print Post  
Make sure you sort out the zinc wheel weights from the lead ones.

I haven't actually gotten around to trying the xtps yet either.  Still using my range time to perfect the full noise loads.  I did load up a few but got too nervous about detonation to try the subsonic ones.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #82 - Apr 16th, 2009 at 11:12pm
Print Post  
Whats the difference between zinc and lead, aside the fact they are different metals. I've done tyre shop work in the past and don't recall zinc weights.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #83 - Apr 16th, 2009 at 11:34pm
Print Post  
Going to try something different.

I've loaded a few more rounds only this time all are 14 grains of Trailboss, thats a 3.1cc dipper. This load of powder takes the case capacity half way up the case taper. With the 220 grain projectile, there is still a small amount of free space so it's not a full or compressed load. Holding the cartridge up to the ear and shaking, the powder can still be heard. I'm hoping it'll still be subsonic as then I can have a single powder charge for three different loads, one subsonic, the others mild small game hunting and training loads.

here they are





left to right

90 grain XTP,
150 grain Berry's 30/30 plated,
165 grain H&N plated,
220 grain Sierra,
a 220 grain Sierra bullet that I've drilled
and a .22LR for comparison

I'll load up the 150 grain lead bullets when they arrive, not sure if I can try them on the next shoot.

cheers


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #84 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 10:31am
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on Apr 16th, 2009 at 11:12pm:
Whats the difference between zinc and lead, aside the fact they are different metals. I've done tyre shop work in the past and don't recall zinc weights.

cheers


You want to get the alloy right so that you get your desired hardness is my understanding.  I think some wheel weights are steel as well.

Do a google.  There is some good info out there.  Also a whole forum on cast bullets.

Do you want to try some 170g 30/30 projectiles?

Also for the smaller chargers have your tried using military type brass.  It's much thicker therefore has a smaller capacity.  In my collection PMC and Highland both weigh around 180 grains.  My CAC brass weights 160 grains which is a huge difference.  If I put a full load in the PMC it's only 80% full in the CAC.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #85 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 12:58pm
Print Post  
Yes, I discovered the difference with the "the load" experiment. The CAC brass didn't show high pressure signs as did the Highland and Remington Peters.

CAC is military brass, I thought it would be heavier, not lighter. I'll weigh some of mine soon.

I'll research the wheel weight business

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #86 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 1:05pm
Print Post  
First of all I must say that I have never tried to shoot .308 subsonic, but I have tried it rather much with a 357 magnum.

In the 357 I have been using 180 grain XTP bullets mostly. They work fine, but if you don't hit bones, it doesn't open up at 50 meters+ and works like a FMJ then. On shouldershots, they open nicely and do the job well.
Cast bullets can work very well, but they first of all give you a lot of job cleaning the barrel often and it is not allways easy to find the right lead to make it work well for subsonic hunting loads.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #87 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 4:15pm
Print Post  
The lightness of the CAC brass surprised me as well.  Be interested to see what yours weigh as mine have been through a few reloadings and trimmings now.

When you say pressure signs what are you talking about?  Flattened primers?  I stopped because of that (also using pmc or highland).   I had bluging primers but not in the same way as you get with high pressure full noise loads.  Thinking back it could have been due to loose primer pockets.

From what I have read leading shouldn't be much of an issue at subsonic speeds.  All theory at this point though.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #88 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 4:59pm
Print Post  
Thanks Norwegianwoods. Useful info  Wink  It'll probably be a fine balance between leading the barrel and not expanding (to soft or to hard)

Weighed my brass and got 171 grains for the Remington and 163 for the CAC

With "the load", I was getting flattened primers, shiny patches on the case base and the bolt was tight to open. That was with Remington and highland brass, not CAC  Huh
Havn't had the problem with subsonics

Already have some 30/30 projectiles  Cool

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #89 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 7:46pm
Print Post  
I didn't get those standard pressure signs but did get a raised (rather than flattened) primers.  Very weird.

It's important to remember with trail boss that despite using a vastly smaller amount of powder than a standard load it's a fast powder.  That means that it all burns in the case instead of keeping burning on the way down the barrel which can lead to a much higher peak pressure than a slower powder.

Compare the standard loads of 2209 and 2206H on the adi web site and you will see what I mean.

Here is the cast boolits forum site.  It's a whole new world of things to fiddle with in the shed.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

What mold are you using?

Low velocities, gas check and lubing your projectiles should result in very little or no leading.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #90 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 9:49pm
Print Post  
Hmmm  interesting thought on the Trailboss pressure peak.  Think it's time to give ADI an email


Havn't got an molds at this stage

Did a snoop around on the net and found out zinc weights are sometimes marked with "Zn" so they can be identified before going into the pot and if they arn't, Zinc has a higher melting point so will float before it melts so all floating wheel weights need to be scooped out quickly.

Also, the clip on wheel weights have an average hardness of about 11 BHN and are good for general use up to about 1900fps.
The stick on weights (with foam backing) are softer at about 6 BHN and are close to pure lead. These may be the answer for 308 subsonics

Leading isn't so much a problem with properly sized and lubed bullets, regardles of the hardness unless your trying for greater velocities, like 2000fps +. 

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rambo-6mmRem
Forum Font
*****
Offline


6mm remington with 100gn
corelokt yum

Posts: 2112
Location: Helensville
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #91 - Apr 18th, 2009 at 12:03am
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on Apr 17th, 2009 at 9:49pm:
Hmmm  interesting thought on the Trailboss pressure peak.  Think it's time to give ADI an email


Havn't got an molds at this stage

Did a snoop around on the net and found out zinc weights are sometimes marked with "Zn" so they can be identified before going into the pot and if they arn't, Zinc has a higher melting point so will float before it melts so all floating wheel weights need to be scooped out quickly.

Also, the clip on wheel weights have an average hardness of about 11 BHN and are good for general use up to about 1900fps.
The stick on weights (with foam backing) are softer at about 6 BHN and are close to pure lead. These may be the answer for 308 subsonics

Leading isn't so much a problem with properly sized and lubed bullets, regardles of the hardness unless your trying for greater velocities, like 2000fps +. 

cheers

hi mate zinc ones are marked with zn your right

a bit more info you might not know
1.wheel weights are real good for sulgs or projs
but for muzzle loading balls you need real soft lead

2.all the shit will come to the top of the molten lead so theres no need to take off the foam or steel bits of any thing else that may be on your lead

3. this is just what i do i use two pots one to melt lead in and one to poor clean lead in to. I melt the lead then i poor it in to the other one keeping all the shit in by putting a metal spoon or something in the way this gives you nice lead ready to cast Cool
  

if you go to bed with an itchy bottom you'll wake up with smelly finger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #92 - Apr 18th, 2009 at 12:53am
Print Post  
thanks rambo on wheels

I see Hayes and Associates are advertising .311  93 grain lead bullets in bulk. $10 for 100. These are intended for the 32/20 but would work in Alex B's 7.62x39 bolt gun and most .303's

wonder if these could be resized to say .309  Roll Eyes

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rambo-6mmRem
Forum Font
*****
Offline


6mm remington with 100gn
corelokt yum

Posts: 2112
Location: Helensville
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #93 - Apr 19th, 2009 at 11:48am
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on Apr 18th, 2009 at 12:53am:
thanks rambo on wheels

I see Hayes and Associates are advertising .311  93 grain lead bullets in bulk. $10 for 100. These are intended for the 32/20 but would work in Alex B's 7.62x39 bolt gun and most .303's

wonder if these could be resized to say .309  Roll Eyes

cheers

don't know
normally its .310 -.309  .312 - .311 etc
dont know if you can resize from .311-.309 ask at a gun shop
93gn is a light proj i would be looking more along the lines of a 160gn-180gn
your little 93 gn proj would be hard to keep subsonic as well i found out that with a 150gn 10gn of trail boss was subsonic but 10.5gn was supersonic so with a 93gn pro j that might go down to .1 or.2 of a gn
thanks
darryn
  

if you go to bed with an itchy bottom you'll wake up with smelly finger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #94 - Apr 19th, 2009 at 2:36pm
Print Post  
Just been to visit a mate who brought one of those HK .45apc assult rifle type things as a bail gun.  Standard velocity of those is around 800fps and it's silenced.  So far he has shot two pigs and two deer with it.  Not instant bang flops but he said they only took a couple of steps before they fell down.  Hes using the 240 grain hornady XTP projectiles with the scored jacket and a phat hollow point.  He said the recovered  bullet had held together but had expanded into a respectable sized mushroom.

All this tells me that it can be done.  I have some of those exact projectiles but as they are 90g are a little light so not the final solution.

A decent soft cast projectile with nice big hollow point has got to be the answer.

Fiddling around with cast projectiles and trail boss has got to be a cheaper route that spending 3k on a dedicated rifle like my mate (they are more like 5-6k from GC).
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #95 - Apr 19th, 2009 at 3:01pm
Print Post  
Just browsing the precision reloading services web site (chch outfit) and I notice that they offer a sub load.  For a projectile they have chosen the 3030 flat nose hornady projectile (which I have a box of).

http://www.reloader.co.nz/page2/page13/page13.html
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #96 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 12:44am
Print Post  
They are worth a try, but I doubt if they expand much, if at all at 100 meters loaded subsonic.
To bad Hornandy doesn't make a 180-200 grains XTP for .308 Sad
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #97 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 9:21am
Print Post  
They have probably chosen that projectile as the best of a bad bunch I would say.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #98 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 11:50am
Print Post  
My guess too.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rambo-6mmRem
Forum Font
*****
Offline


6mm remington with 100gn
corelokt yum

Posts: 2112
Location: Helensville
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #99 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 10:46pm
Print Post  
my guess is that you will find it hard to find a jacketed proj that will mushroom at subsonic speeds a cast proj will be your only option that comes to mind.
a jacketed proj is made to mushroom at about 2000fps and over Undecided

i haven't done the phone book test on a 308 sub with cast projs yet
but done it with a 303 with black powder and cast projs and they have a real good mushroom  Smiley and are doing about the same speed as 308 subs. Wink
  

if you go to bed with an itchy bottom you'll wake up with smelly finger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Unlucky
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #100 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 11:08pm
Print Post  
Probably seen it before but here is some light reading..
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rambo-6mmRem
Forum Font
*****
Offline


6mm remington with 100gn
corelokt yum

Posts: 2112
Location: Helensville
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #101 - Apr 27th, 2009 at 11:21am
Print Post  
i shot some goats yesterday with 308 supersonic ammo. i was using 125gn sp  pills 3 out of the 4 i shot were shot in the hart or head shots they all ran but found them about 100m into the bush. a guy told me it was because they were going  strait in and out without mushrooming and a smaller cal like 223 or 222 would do a better job normally. i do use a 223 but its it the gunsmiths getting some work done on it so had to use 308 

i reckon that a 308 sub with a cast proj will have more killing power on goats than a supersonic 308 or 223

MarkJ let me know how you get on with the cast projs that you got of trade me  Smiley
  

if you go to bed with an itchy bottom you'll wake up with smelly finger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #102 - Apr 28th, 2009 at 11:46pm
Print Post  
ok Rambo,    not sure about your last comment though


Had another chrony session and here are the results with the higher powder charges and the cast bullet test (they arrived in time)

150 grain berrys  12.6 grains Trailboss  2.8cc   
1430 fps average, spread of 8 fps

150 grain berrys  14 grains Trailboss  3.1cc
1558 fps average, spread of 23 fps

165 grain H&N  12.6 grains Trailboss  2.8cc
1401 fps average, spread of 52 fps

forgot to load up the 165's with 14 grains   Embarrassed

90 grain XTP  14 grains Trailboss  3.1cc
1965 fps average, spread of 64 fps

220 grain Sierra  14 grains Trailboss  3.1cc
1135 fps average, spread of 79 fps

150 grain lead  6.9 grains Trailboss  1.3cc
939 fps average, spread of 52 fps

150 grain lead  7.4 grains Trailboss  1.6cc
1061 fps average, spread of 30 fps

Of course only one of these loads were subsonic, the 150 grain lead bullet with 6.9 grains. The rest would make fine light loads if you wanted to go down that road. For me, the first load, 150 grain berrys with 12.6 grains is good for now. Same powder charge as the 220 grain subsonic load and a good plinker/small game/trainer load.

The 90 grain XTP's didn't feed reliably which is a shame.
In all of this shooting, the barrel did not get hot!  (had the suppressor off) Thats handy for long shooting sessions, they wern't noisy either.

I managed to recover one of the lead bullets from a cedar log. It had travelled in 5 inches and is shown below with an unfired bullet. At only 1061 fps, it didn't mushroom but these bullets are solid so perhaps a hollow point would have



cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #103 - Apr 29th, 2009 at 12:18am
Print Post  
Either a hollow point or softer lead would do the trick I think Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #104 - Apr 30th, 2009 at 9:37pm
Print Post  
Here's the reply from ADI about the loading of Trailboss into 308 cases.
I didn't go up gradually, just shot off those 14 grain loads.  There are no pressure signs.. I checked each case after firing
Pretty much common sense really, thanks ADI


Date:  30/04/09

Reference No:   2622

To:  MarkJ



Thankyou for your recent enquiry with regard to reloading using ADI Sporting powders.

Our best recommendation is to increase your charge weight incrementally from your successful load of 12.6gns of Trail Boss up to your desired load of 14gns.  Monitor your cases for signs of excessive pressure throughout this process to give yourself confidence that you are not approaching dangerous pressure levels.
Trail Boss is designed to be fired at full capacity so there is no inherent problem with loading to those levels with that propellant.  However, you should make sure that your loads are safe by going through the process of correct load development as you have already done for your earlier load.

Extreme caution should be taken and loads should be worked up accordingly. Refer to our website at www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide or our handloaders’ guide for more information, warnings and reloading safety.

We thankyou for using ADI Sporting Powders.


Yours Sincerely

ADI Technical Centre
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alex B
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 142
Location: wellington
Joined: Feb 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #105 - May 1st, 2009 at 2:56pm
Print Post  
With regards to the bullet performance tests discussed earlier:

http://www.thebullettesttube.com/

Looks like some sort of wax or something in a tube, says its reusable and you melt it down. 

Im also currently trying to work out some loads for the 7.62 x 39 with trailboss.  Just wondering how quiet do you guys get your 308's?  Are they hollywood quiet?  Cool

Was starting at 8grns of trailboss (bout as much as I can fit in the little case) and a 174 grain sierra matchking, was quiet but not real quiet, definietly not supersonic but still has a slight crack to it, Was thinking my loads may be in the transsonic range rather than completely subsonic??
Perhaps my loads are subsonic but the suppressor isn't the best??
Will chrony the loads when I have time to visit my good friend with the chronograph.  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #106 - May 2nd, 2009 at 10:15pm
Print Post  
Thanks Alex B, I've seen that site about the reusable ballistic gelitin in a tube. Good idea but not in NZ so it may be a hassle getting over here. Don't know.

Yeah, I'm getting hollywood quiet with my loads. A "pwatt" kind of noise, much like an air rifle and a loud smack when the bullet hits.

I'm guessing 8 grains of Trail Boss with a 174 bullet would put you around 1000fps but of course that friend with the chrono' should be visited  Smiley
I try to keep around 950fps so temperature changes don't eat into that transonic grey area

cheers

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #107 - May 4th, 2009 at 9:33pm
Print Post  
Plastalin works rather well to test out bullets.
But you need to use the harder type of it and it can't be to warm when you test the bullet, or the plastalin gets to soft.
Use rather big blocks of it and build a frame with some sort of backstop to make sure you don't lose to much of the plastalin when you shoot trough it.
Then you can use it many times Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #108 - May 4th, 2009 at 10:32pm
Print Post  
Do you mean plastercine? I believe its much the same as plastilin, just invented by different people.
I thought of this too but don't know of any cheap source of bulk plastercine

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
colinz
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 196
Location: The 'tron
Joined: Mar 28th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #109 - May 5th, 2009 at 12:29am
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on May 4th, 2009 at 10:32pm:
I thought of this too but don't know of any cheap source of bulk plastercine

Art stores.  You could also use artists clay I suppose, possibly cheaper than plasticine too. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #110 - May 5th, 2009 at 12:34am
Print Post  
You might get it for bulk price at an art store or a toy store for kids Smiley

Will you not get problems with the artists clay drying up?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #111 - May 11th, 2009 at 9:48pm
Print Post  
I was rumaging around on the net recently, looking for info on lead cast bullets when I came across a page on a website all about high velocity cast bullets.
This got my interest so I read on and took notes (as I often do) but lost it in a web of links and can't get back to it. (the page)
This is from my notes
A chap in the states is getting 2800 fps with cast bullets in his .222. He explained how lead will reach a 'critical point' where the metal goes past it's yield strengh and becomes "plastic". This is when leading occures in barrels.
But not all lead is of the same strengh, some is alloyed by the addition of tin etc to increase it's brinel hardness number (BHN).
It comes down to this, the harder the lead, the higher the psi pressure it can take before leading occures .
By looking in a reloading book, a jacketed bullet load for the caliber/bullet weight combination was found, that corrosponded with the powder available. Then a load that was below the maximum pressure for the bullet strengh was chosen and proved successful against game and on the range...and no leading of the barrel.
He has a formular,
multiply the leads BHN  by 1422 to get the maximum pressure in psi.

example

heat treated lead alloy  BHN of 31 = 44082  you can load up to this pressure in psi

linotype  BHN of 22  =  31284 psi

wheel weight  BHN of  10  =  14220  psi

pure lead  BHN of 6  =  8532  psi

So, for your 44 magnum lever action, a harder lead than say wheel weights may be needed to stop leading, depending on how hot they are loaded and yet the 45 long colt may not lead at all because it's going slower with less pressure.

This brings me to subsonics. I have no idea how much pressure is being developed with my subsonic load but if its under 8500 psi then a soft pure lead bullet will perhaps be the ideal for 308 subsonic game shooting.

need more research    Wink

cheers

ps...in my notes, I had also written, slower powders may produce lower pressures. not sure if this is relevant for subsonics


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #112 - May 11th, 2009 at 10:11pm
Print Post  
I am sure you can find out the pressure of a subsonic load in .308 on the net.
And you can allways mix pure lead with wheel weight to get the right BHN Smiley
Maybe a BHN of 8 would be about right to give you nice mushrooms in subsonic speeds Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #113 - May 12th, 2009 at 11:15am
Print Post  
Some of the guys on here have software which calculates pressure based on the powder and the measured case capacity.  I think Gimp has a copy so check with him.  Also if you look on the ADI web site it has loads and pressure listed for 30/30.  308 should be less than that as it's a bigger case.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rambo-6mmRem
Forum Font
*****
Offline


6mm remington with 100gn
corelokt yum

Posts: 2112
Location: Helensville
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #114 - May 12th, 2009 at 4:08pm
Print Post  
how have you found cast projs for killing so far? Smiley
  

if you go to bed with an itchy bottom you'll wake up with smelly finger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #115 - May 12th, 2009 at 6:48pm
Print Post  
Thanks norwegianwoods and massiveattack, I'll have a look around soon.
Rambo, I've been thinking how the projectiles from the old days were often subsonic and of softlead and they mushroomed very well.
I'm not convinced that hollowpoints will be needed with soft lead.
No, I havn't had the chance to try lead on animals

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #116 - May 12th, 2009 at 7:09pm
Print Post  
I have made some slight progress.  A bloke I met at the range offered to give me some cast projectiles he had been trialing (with normal powder and cotton wads).  I said I would swap them for some trail boss.

Re projectiles.  If you go with all lead then it's going to be soft but to my way of thinking you are probably going to get a lot of fragmentation thereby loosing penetration.  Jacketed projectiles are all designed around keeping the base together and allowing the tip to deform so that you get expansion and penetration.  So while a soft flat point projectile is getting closer a harder alloy with a phat hollow point would be better.  Of course all this is based on my guesswork so has to be proven with lots of wet phone books.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #117 - May 12th, 2009 at 11:04pm
Print Post  
An all lead 22lr bullet mushrooms and holds well together when shot subsonic. So it should be no problem to have an all lead casted bullet to both mushroom and hold together well when it is shot subsonic.
The main problem is to find the right BHN Smiley
You might need to make a hollow point to be sure it allways muchsrooms, but I think that would be rather easy to do Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #118 - May 13th, 2009 at 10:03am
Print Post  
What makes you think the .22 round is pure lead?  I always assumed it was an alloy.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Norwegianwoods
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 2460
Location: Norway
Joined: Apr 15th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #119 - May 13th, 2009 at 11:13am
Print Post  
Everything else than a 6 BHN lead is an alloy.
It is still only called lead.
Just like you call it gold even if it is not 100% pure gold.
Like what you find in jewelry. Allmost never pure gold as that is to soft to use for jewelry.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
barrabruce
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #120 - May 19th, 2009 at 6:46pm
Print Post  
Had to join in the fray  so I can post here Smiley Been following this thread 'cos I wanna shoot pigs with a 30-30 cast with trailboss maybe with something slow and quiet.

Here's an idea that may help some!!! Casting soft nose for expansion.

Nope link don't work yet so Hmmm
So maybe go to
castboolits.com
Classics and stickies
about half way down the page.
BruceB's Cast Softpoints (as of MAY 2009)



No I ain't done no casting yet but looks promissing.
Still waiting for me 30-30 single shot ( my poor mans whisper) to arrive but no cans of course Sad Us purr bugga Ozzies)
But I enjoy reading about it.

Some other ideas about putting paper or al foil in the mould to split the nose of the bullet as well. Supposed to expand of do something.
cheers
Barra

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #121 - May 19th, 2009 at 9:15pm
Print Post  
barrabruce, is this the one

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=53234

good read,

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
barrabruce
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #122 - May 19th, 2009 at 10:04pm
Print Post  
Yep thats the one MARKJ.
Got to wait for a bit til I can post a link.
Roll Eyes
Never mind.
Found a couple of more things as well when I can re-find them.
Just doing some home work on the matter.
Barra

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #123 - May 19th, 2009 at 11:10pm
Print Post  
There is load data on the adi web site for 30/30 so it should be fairly simple.  Are suppressors illegal in Oz?

Another source of projectiles here:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=217776082&permanent=0
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
barrabruce
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #124 - May 20th, 2009 at 2:28am
Print Post  
Massive attack
Yep silencers/moderators are illegal here now since about 1980
in Oz as far as I can remember.
Basically I want a nice quite loads for wabbits and good enough to maybe knock a pig off.
ADI website is good but unsure of what powder to use for 1000- 1800 fps. with cast.
Was thinking of AR 2207 for full loads with jacket
If that powder can be reduced or not i don't know. That way I can use it in my k-hornet as well as cast and jacket.

Trailboss for slow quiter stuff  1000fps

The link to tradme sounded interesting. wonder what powder he's using.Think I might try to hunt some cast in the big smoke after I 've slugged the bore and do all that stuff first.

Barra
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #125 - May 20th, 2009 at 9:26am
Print Post  
ADI web site says:
6.5 grains of trail boss gets you 995fps
9 grains of trail boss gets you 1195fps

For higher velocities you have to go to a normal powder.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kuro.308
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #126 - May 24th, 2009 at 8:55pm
Print Post  
theres a guy selling solids on trade me seems to know his stuff on this topic. easy to find Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #127 - May 28th, 2009 at 1:04pm
Print Post  
I have brought some of the trade me projectiles.  Also a bloke I met at the range gave me some 150g gas checked cast projectiles so I have something to play with in the meantime.

Also I noticed that the hodgdon web site lists trail boss load data for 308 (and others).  10-14g for a 150g jacketed projectile.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bigfish
Forum Font
*****
Offline



Posts: 1043
Location: Wellington
Joined: Jan 29th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #128 - Jun 8th, 2009 at 7:06pm
Print Post  
Chronagraphed 180gr Sierra Pro Hunter with 12gr Trailboss, average was 1166fps however only over 6 rounds. Lowest was 1147 and the highest was 1196. Not subsonic but quiet non the less even without the supressor.I'm not sure how much further one can go with this powder before the pressure gets up.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #129 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 11:39am
Print Post  
Havn't done anything else with projectiles but went out yesterday to try the rifles point of impact change with the suppressor off and on, with factory loads. I wrote this up in the firearms section.

Also tried it with subsonic loads, offhand at just over 100 meters and was getting hits using the same 14 inch holdover with the can off and on. There may be some slight differance but it would have been lost in the offhand shooting. Maybe if I had time to use a bench I may have found a differance but as I was getting hits (or real close to) then I'll leave it at that.

Shooting these subsonic loads (220 grain) with the suppressor off is fun shooting and I feel confident in using it like this for rabbit shooting, out to 100 anyway

Bigfish, you should get away with a full case of Trailboss and still be low in pressure. If in doubt, email ADI

mailto:  reload.support@adi-limited.com

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #130 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 2:00pm
Print Post  
I have made some small progress.

I have some 150g cast projectiles loaded to be super sonic using the max 14g load of trail boss listed on the hornady web site.  I have decided that these are too small to use as sub loads (the amount of trail boss required to get them sub is below my comfort levels) so will just use them as small game plinking loads.

I brought some of the 180g cast projectiles off trade me and will use them as my sub loads.  Have loaded up some bombs but not chronyed them yet.

I also purchased a 200g mold off trade me in the weekend so thats then eventual end game if I can get that weight projectile to stabilize in my rifle.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #131 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 2:33pm
Print Post  
MassiveAttack, 7.4 grains of Trailboss got my 150grain copper coated projectiles along at 950 fps. Lead projectiles will probably move a little quicker, up towards 1000 fps.
That 7.4 grains is about half a case and I consider it quite safe.

Looking forward to the 200 grain cast results  Smiley
I would say that somewhere between 10 and 12 grains will be right for that size lead bullet.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #132 - Aug 7th, 2009 at 8:54pm
Print Post  
Anybody had a chance to try out lead projectiles during the winter

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mr D
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 143
Location: Rotorua
Joined: Oct 5th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #133 - Aug 8th, 2009 at 9:26am
Print Post  
I have some 7mm cast bullets if anyone wants them. 11 x 126 grain 1 x 146 grain with gas check. Pay for the postage and they are yours.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Trout
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Top NZ WhiteTail

Posts: 7801
Location: Southern Alps
Joined: Oct 4th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #134 - Aug 8th, 2009 at 10:43am
Print Post  
Sub sonic 308 175grns 1040 ft /sec,very good grouping 100mts but wouldnt knock a wallaby over at 30mtrs ,gutless really.Very quiet.i just tweaked out the pencil marks
  

Shot a few deer,caugth some big trout and salmon
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #135 - Aug 8th, 2009 at 7:14pm
Print Post  
Trout, I ran your subsonics through a ballistic calculator and come up with these figures, with a 100 yard zero. Yes these rounds are weak so you need good bullet placement. Keep in mind that they do penetrate and at 30 yards should go right through a Wallaby


Range    Velocity    Impact   Drop   ToF   Energy   Drift
0           1040        -1.5        0         0     420        0
25         1027        2.03     1.16     0.08   410      0.51
50         1015        3.49     4.39     0.15   400      0.74
75         1003        2.83     9.74     0.22   391      1.12
100         992             0   17.26     0.3     382      1.64
125         982       -5.03   26.98     0.37    375      2.29
150         972      -12.31  38.95     0.45    367      3.08

cheers

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MassiveAttack
Forum Font
*****
Offline


Setting trends in waterfowling
fashion since 2011

Posts: 9559
Location: Canterbury
Joined: Feb 16th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #136 - Aug 9th, 2009 at 12:23pm
Print Post  
This was an interesting article on getting cast booits to expand.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl260partial1.pdf

I have tried out my 160 and 180g cast projectiles.  They were reasonably accurate at 50m.  Didn't chrony them or try them at 100m.  I have brought a 200g lee mold off trade me so thats going to be the plan after the old man gets back from his holiday and casts me some.
  

This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine.  Without my rifle I am useless, without me it is useless.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Trout
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Top NZ WhiteTail

Posts: 7801
Location: Southern Alps
Joined: Oct 4th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #137 - Aug 9th, 2009 at 5:24pm
Print Post  
Thanks Mark J for that info.
  

Shot a few deer,caugth some big trout and salmon
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #138 - Sep 20th, 2009 at 9:12pm
Print Post  
With the suppressor on and sighted in to be nearly two inches high at 100 yards with sonic ammo, the Ruger would put the subsonic bullets 14 inches low at the same range.
Then I tried sonic ammo at 100 with the suppressor off and found I was grouping low ....... hmmmm

Today, I sighted the rifle in, nearly two inches high at 100, this time with the suppressor off, using sonic ammo.
Then with the suppressor back on and shooting subsonic I found it was now only 7 inches low at 100. This is much easier to allow for bullet drop and makes accurate shooting more of a reality with the bog standard 4 power scope I have.
Also found that at 50 yards, the rifle is zero'd.
Back at home, I ran the ballistics calculator again and found that the original 14 inch holdover I had used before takes the range out to 125 yards with the current sighting set-up 

So now I'll keep just two configirations for my rifle
  1  suppressor off and shooting sonic ammo (nice handy carbine)
  2  suppressor on for subsonics
I know the suppressor makes shooting sonic ammunition much more pleasant but I don't mind the recoil and the one or two shots taken while hunting won't hurt the ears.

I remembered the .22 subsonic, when sighted in at 50 yards, will also have a drop of 7 inches at 100, thats useful info  Wink

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Trout
Donor Member
*****
Offline


Top NZ WhiteTail

Posts: 7801
Location: Southern Alps
Joined: Oct 4th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #139 - Sep 20th, 2009 at 9:46pm
Print Post  
From standard zero at 100mtrs id have to come up 50clicks to get the same zero with subsonic 170grns,but groups MOA well at 100mtrs.But at 50mtrs only about 1"differents high.
  

Shot a few deer,caugth some big trout and salmon
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Krico
Forum Font
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 1678
Location: Wairarapa
Joined: Oct 4th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #140 - Sep 21st, 2009 at 9:57pm
Print Post  
MarkJ wrote on Sep 20th, 2009 at 9:12pm:
With the suppressor on and sighted in to be nearly two inches high at 100 yards with sonic ammo, the Ruger would put the subsonic bullets 14 inches low at the same range.
Then I tried sonic ammo at 100 with the suppressor off and found I was grouping low ....... hmmmm

Today, I sighted the rifle in, nearly two inches high at 100, this time with the suppressor off, using sonic ammo.
Then with the suppressor back on and shooting subsonic I found it was now only 7 inches low at 100. This is much easier to allow for bullet drop and makes accurate shooting more of a reality with the bog standard 4 power scope I have.
Also found that at 50 yards, the rifle is zero'd.
Back at home, I ran the ballistics calculator again and found that the original 14 inch holdover I had used before takes the range out to 125 yards with the current sighting set-up  

So now I'll keep just two configirations for my rifle
 1  suppressor off and shooting sonic ammo (nice handy carbine)
 2  suppressor on for subsonics
I know the suppressor makes shooting sonic ammunition much more pleasant but I don't mind the recoil and the one or two shots taken while hunting won't hurt the ears.

I remembered the .22 subsonic, when sighted in at 50 yards, will also have a drop of 7 inches at 100, thats useful info  Wink

cheers

Trout MarkJ is right re your sub load having some serious penetration. My 180gn Sierra GameKings doing 1040fps @ muzzle still penetrate green poplar to 10" at 100m - so more than adequate for deer too IMO. They tended to pencil through though so contact with shoulder bones on entry and quartering into the chest would be optimum.
MarkJ I understand your quandry with such a deviation in drop between sonic and sub with the suppressor fitted - I overcame this by fitting a relatively cheap Burris Bal Plex scope - the sub-graticles were exactly right for me to use at 25m, 50m 75m and 100m for subs while the same held true for the sonic loads but for 100 out to around 400m - all with the suppressor fitted - just a suggestion.  It sure felt weird canting the rifle up like a mortar to shoot at 100m for the subs, but once over that, it still grouped well and certainly penetrated. Good thread still running here - well done all.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #141 - Sep 21st, 2009 at 11:07pm
Print Post  
Thanks Krico, yes, I have giv'n some serious consideration to a ballistic plex scope and nearly got one when I brought the rifle but the budget was a bit to tight.
Not to say it won't happen in the future   Smiley

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #142 - Jan 17th, 2010 at 11:10pm
Print Post  
I'm happy with my 308 subsonic loading but as I have another 308 rifle about to join the stable (the pocket rifle) I want another subsonic load. This time I'll go the other way and try for a rabbit load. The smallest, cheapest projectile suitable for bunnies and plinking out to 50, perhaps 100 yards.
I'll get on to it soon

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #143 - May 12th, 2010 at 10:44pm
Print Post  
I've made a start on the rabbit load. This time I'm using the 308 Rossi Pomba, same rifle in the "Pocket Rifle" thread, with the 16" barrel.

I still have a good stock of the .312 caliber berry's plated HBWC projectiles that weigh 83 grains. I first used them in an old .303 and had tried them in the Ruger but they wouldn't chamber. Tried them again in the Rossi and they not only chamber but they shoot well.
With 6.9 grains of Trailboss powder (1.3cc) I'm getting 1220 fps with 323 ftlbs of energy. More power than a 22LR but with the trajectory of a 22 subsonic.
I'll try again later with a lesser charge, try and get down to about 950 fps.

Also tried the bigger 150 grain berrys, this time loaded backwards. Still getting similar velocity compared to seating the bullets right way around (985 fps) but had trouble chambering then, possibly due to the bullets being to high in the case.
As a rabbit load it probably dosn't matter if the bullet is backwards or not so this one will be fine. It's at the right speed and it's a common weight but a lighter bullet is what I'm after so I'll keep working with those .303/.32 bullets and will look out for a light, common and jacketed or plated 308 bullet.

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kiwi Vince
Forum Font
*****
Offline


"I Am Easily Satisfied
With The Very Best"

Posts: 1433
Location: Auckland
Joined: Jan 12th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #144 - May 13th, 2010 at 11:08am
Print Post  
A mate and I are using 100gn Hornady XTP bullets in a 7.62 x 39. These are .312 and are .32 cal pistol bullets, we are trying to get expansion at sub velocities for use on goats to 100 metres or so.

Have also used Sierra 90gn JHC pistol bullets in .312/.32 cal but went to Hornady ofr more weight

So far its all looking good and grouping well, trajectory is about a 100mm rise and 100mm fall from line of sight over 100 metres but thats acceptable for the purpose

Once we have it sorted a bit more I will post about it. Even got the SKS cycling reliably!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #145 - May 13th, 2010 at 2:34pm
Print Post  
Kiwi Vince, is that SKS cycling with sub sonic ammo?

How did you do that, take out the piston and spring and make it a simple blowback?

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kiwi Vince
Forum Font
*****
Offline


"I Am Easily Satisfied
With The Very Best"

Posts: 1433
Location: Auckland
Joined: Jan 12th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #146 - May 13th, 2010 at 4:11pm
Print Post  
Yep, SKS cycling with subs.

Using surplus steel case ammo and pulling the bullet and dumping the powder, actually recycling the powder into something else and replacing the powder with ADI shotgun powder and the aforementioned Hornady 100gn XTP bullet. Feeds beautifully from 1 model and not so good from another that has a different magazine and breeching system. Let the cases go and dont bother with them. we do use brass cases in a bolt action and re-use and use the surplus powder in that.

Used some high temperature bog stuff to block a couple of the grooves in the star shaped gas valve and drilled gas vent holes in a different place and blocked the first set of holes to vent off to increase the pressure on the piston. Works well so far. Have played with a lighter spring but found it unneccessary.

Have also experimented with reduced loads of rifle powder and this too looked promising but we abandoned that as we just couldn't get the balance of cycling and velocity right.

Like I said when we get it properly sorted we will post about it incuding load details etc. Happy to help with more info if you want to try this yourself.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #147 - May 13th, 2010 at 7:25pm
Print Post  
Sounds great !!!

Don't have an SKS, a mate does. Would like to read all the details when your sorted and I'm sure others on the forum would too.

All you need now is a suppressor Wink

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Kiwi Vince
Forum Font
*****
Offline


"I Am Easily Satisfied
With The Very Best"

Posts: 1433
Location: Auckland
Joined: Jan 12th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #148 - May 13th, 2010 at 10:37pm
Print Post  
Its got a suppressor too.

SKS's come with a metric left hand thread on the barrel so had to screw cut that into the suppressor

Low pressure round, made our own out of aluminium and it has held together fine even with standard rounds.

Its about on a par with a .22 with subs and a suppressor, perhaps even quieter other than action noise
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #149 - May 14th, 2010 at 8:05pm
Print Post  
Kiwi Vince, PM sent

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #150 - Jan 26th, 2011 at 11:37pm
Print Post  
Time I started tinkering with the 308 rabbit load again now the pocket rifle has gone....

Last time I used the 220 grain subs I heard a light crack, just wondering if summer and winter temp differences can influence velocity ;  I mean loading in the winter, firing in the summer etc, anybody come across this ?

cheers
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Alex B
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 142
Location: wellington
Joined: Feb 18th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #151 - Jan 27th, 2011 at 9:00am
Print Post  
Hi mark,
Its been a while since I looked at this thread, however I noticed a big difference in my 7.62x39 sub loads between summer and winter, I developed my load in winter and come summer they were "cracking" rather loudly.
Throw them over the chrony and compare the velocities to your previous load notes, I would be very interested to know just how much difference there is if any between summer and winter velocities.
Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarkJ
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 358
Location: Waiuku
Joined: Nov 20th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #152 - Jan 27th, 2011 at 11:36am
Print Post  
Thanks Alex B, yes, I remember now, the last shooting session WAS over the chrony and although I didn't record the figures, I'm sure I was getting about 1040fps for a load that was supposed to go 950fps. Next time I'm out I'll confirm. 
If thats the case then I may have to look at 2 loads for subsonic, warm and cool temp loads.
May even have to experiment with load development with the chrony and a thermometer.

Seems I've read this before somewhere but wasn't paying much attention  Roll Eyes

cheers

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
310cadet
Just Joined
*
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 20
Location: Christchurch
Joined: Feb 10th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #153 - Jul 14th, 2019 at 10:13pm
Print Post  
A bit late getting to the party.
I put some 150g cast hollow points from TradeMe in front of 7grains of Trailboss in my Baikal .308 folder, got about 1000fps and 11 mm three shot group at 50 metres off sandbags on the bench.
Quiet and stunningly accurate so no excuses for not neck shooting a deer once you have sorted out how to hold over for various ranges.
Cheers PJ
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Micky Duck
Ex Member


Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #154 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 4:55pm
Print Post  
yes you CAN neck shoot a deer etc with them but PLEASE TAKE NOTE......if you miss bone your deer will bugger off wounded and wary...you get NO shock effect at subsonic speeds.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thebomb
Donor Member
*****
Offline


I Love The FishNhunt Forum

Posts: 3361
Location: hamilton
Joined: Aug 14th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: 308 Subsonic
Reply #155 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 6:16pm
Print Post  
Shoot them in the ear ...or crease of the shoulder and be prepar3d to track a lot..more like bow hunting.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 
Send TopicPrint
 

FishnHunt - New Zealands Famous Hunting and Fishing Forum Since 1995 » Powered by YaBB 2.6.11!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2020. All Rights Reserved.
Site Design By Alan Simmons - PRism and all rights are reserved from 1995 and onwards